Marriage - An outdated concept?

[Els]

Eh, if that lady has decided that that is what she wants in her life, it's a valid decision and frankly none of our business IMO. I think people would be a lot happier if they stopped sticking their noses unsolicited into other folks' businesses (this woman has not asked for advice), and stopped making decisions based on what society tells them they 'should' do.

 

That being said, personally my opinion on this is somewhat in the middle. I do think there is some merit and importance to marriage, but I don't perceive it to be the end-all-be-all of a relationship as some conservative folks do.

 

Amongst my friends I have proposed an idea that I think suits the modern situation.

a) people may choose to pair bond for life via marriage, but as it is 'death do us part' there should be no divorce. The strange thing is that although you can commit to live and share assets, you CANNOT promise to love someone, if you do, it may just be lipservice.

 

b) a series of contractual arrangements, lets call them short- medium term leases of say 2 or 5 years which, like commercial leases, can be renewed, with or without further negotiations at the conclusion of each period. If there is no renewal, assets should be divided appropriately and each go their own way. Provsions for children unrelated to assets.

 

"B" already somewhat exists in many countries, they are called de facto or common law relationships. I do think that these suit some people more so than a lifelong arrangement - some people view marriage as just a 'legally recognized relationship', which is pretty much the equivalent of a de facto R. I personally don't think it replaces marriage, but I do think it fills a nice niche between just 'dating' and 'committed for life', both of which are very different extremes on the relationship spectrum, and smooths out the progression (so you don't HAVE to marry yet if you want a legally-recognized R but don't know if you are ready to commit for life). If de facto Rs were recognized in more places, the divorce rate would probably decrease.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Elswyth

[SolG]

I've never understood the argument that genetically we're not meant to pair off & be monogamous. Some animals are. I'm NOT playing devils advocate. I truly don't understand the assertion.

 

We have particularly vulnerable, totally reliant young, for a very, very long time. Isn't the driving force of nature to reproduce itself & keep its offspring alive to carry-on it's genes? (The genetic imperative) For human beings that takes 2 adults....well in did back at the dawn of the race.

 

Surely it's not logical in an evolutionary way to produce lots of babies with different mates because they'd all die! To escape predators the adults need to carry & run with the babies. Our species was nomadic. It's not until the settled, farming stage that lots of kids made sense.

 

There's no evidence that we lived like lions (for example) with one male & lots of females. I know some cultures developed to be like that but that's social not genetic.

 

I'm just interested.

 

The argument seems to be that we 'invented' marriage. It seems more logical that permanent coupling was genetically necessary (we didn't live long) & now, if marriage is becoming obsolete it's social NOT reverting to our 'nature' or genes. Rather frequently changing partners & promiscuity is a symptom of our instant gratification, shallow momentary 'happiness' of the high, kind of culture.

 

I'm going to use the term 'marriage' as an embracing one to include all types of long-term pair-bonding commitment here.

 

Actually, the predominant 'marriage' model throughout most of human history HAS been polygamy (yep, sort of like the lions :-). And polygamy produces the exact effects you talk about here; provides pair-bonding (just not only one pair, but many pairs that pivot off a single male), production of max offspring, and their protection by the one male provider/protector. In this model it was a natural occurrence that the most powerful/provident of men in turn had the most amount of wives and children and the corresponding responsibility for their safety and well. Regardless of new and younger wives coming on board, the man retained responsibility for ALL of them regardless of who may be flavour of the month. Doesn't mean it always went well--just read the Bible--but it was a model that produced a pretty good effect in terms of surviving and thriving. It had a kind of elegance like that, and it served us well as a species for most of our existence :-)

 

Monogamy for life with love as a basis as a marriage model is the relative new comer on the block. And even then, for most of the life of this model thus far... it hasn't been expected that men maintain it. The license for mistresses was tolerated, even encouraged, for men until quite recently in history. And once again, particularly for those men who most resemble our most successful polygamous ancestors; the most powerful and provident.

 

It has only been for the last 200 years or so that infidelity has really been defined as an outrage against marriage, and a congruent belief/perception is younger again. There has never been a more pro-monogamy and romantic love in marriage time in history than this century and the last; particularly in western society. Because the context has made it possible.

 

We're actually safer right now as a species than we've ever been, we have largesse, we are more societally individualistic than collective, women have more power, we have the leisure time unheard of in the past to pursue such concepts. We've changed the model... because it fits the context, we wanted to and we can afford to!

 

'Marriage' will never be outdated. We do need to pair-bond, we do need to provide safety to raise progeny and marriage provides that. But the shape and expectations of it will keep evolving as we and our context do. It's what we do.

 

Here's a cute little synopsis; it's not great discussion IMO, but it's not toooo bad as a general wrap-up http://theweek.com/articles/475141/how-marriage-changed-over-centuries

Edited March 1, 2016 by SolG

[bathtub-row]

I can't say if I will get married again, and I don't think it's wise to say you will or won't get married. How can you know? How can you predict the future?

 

A person absolutely can say they'll never marry again, and mean it. It's a decision, not fortune-telling. I have no reason to marry again and no reason to risk letting yet another person screw up my life.

 

So if Mr Wonderful comes along, you're thinking that it's something that was unexpected and will cause a change of heart. It won't. He can be my bf but that's about as far as I'll ever want to take things.

[BettyDraper]

I think reasons for marriage are sometimes viewed differently by people who are single later in age.

 

I met my H when I was 21 & we married when I was 26 (he's 1 year older than me). We were together & married for all the romantic, love story reasons. At that age it NEVER once crossed my mind if my H was good husband material. He couldn't drive when I met him. He didn't have any money, no career, no 'social standing' etc. It doesn't matter when you're kids & we were kids!!

 

I believe in love, romance & family & think a lot of people get married for those reasons & always will.

 

I don't think love, romance and family are enough for marriage to last.

There needs to be commonalities in goals and values as well.

Love and romance isn't enough to sustain a relationship forever.

[ShatteredLady]

Oh I thought I was so grown-up at 26!! I think 30's are a better time to marry. I didn't have children until I was late 30's, early 40's. I was FAR better prepared to be a mother than a wife!

 

I think commitment by BOTH people in the marriage is the best indicator of longevity.

Edited March 1, 2016 by ShatteredLady

[BettyDraper]

Oh I thought I was so grown-up at 26!! I think 30's are a better time to marry. I didn't have children until I was late 30's, early 40's. I was FAR better prepared to be a mother than a wife!

 

I think commitment by BOTH people in the marriage is the best indicator of longevity.

 

I concur! When times are hard, it is the commitment which will keep a married couple together.

 

I married in my late 20s. There was huge shift in my maturity level at age 25 and then another one when I turned 30.

 

While I think marriages between those under 25 can work out, I do agree that marriage at a young age is generally not the best idea. People need time to get to know themselves before the attach their identity to another person.

 

Years ago, I met a wealthy young woman of 20. She was very spoiled and immature because everything was handed to her. Her boyfriend had 3 kids and his ex wife was a meth addict. She bought him a very expensive car and that's when her boyfriend started mentioning marriage. When they had that discussion, the young woman promptly became pregnant even though her gold digger boyfriend hadn't proposed yet. This kid had a very entitled and babyish mentality towards married life. "My daddy will pay for my wedding! My daddy will buy a house for me!" It was so sad that a naive young woman wanted to have a child and get married to feel like an adult. She wanted the idea of marriage and motherhood; all she talked about was her wedding and her baby having dimples like his or her father. I hope that her boyfriend did marry her and they are still together but I doubt it very much. I think her boyfriend just smelled money and saw an easy mark.

Edited March 1, 2016 by BettyDraper

[Liam1]

& now, if marriage is becoming obsolete it's social NOT reverting to our 'nature' or genes. Rather frequently changing partners & promiscuity is a symptom of our instant gratification, shallow momentary 'happiness' of the high, kind of culture.

 

I agree. It seems that affairs are celebrated today rather than denigrated.

 

Even in the movies and Television people seem to cheer for a relationship in which a person is cheating because the characters SUPPOSEDLY found the love of their life..... give me a break. Infatuation and lust is not love.

 

I also take issue with the comparison to lower intellectual life forms, not MATING for life accept for a few.

 

Lower animals have no concept of Marriage or morality. That is why it is called mating not marriage.

 

Humans are supposed to be more evolved and to be able control their primitive urges to have sex with some strange.

 

I mean we all have an urge to be wealthy but it's still not morally okay to rob a bank to achieve that goal.

 

I think we need to start celebrating marriage instead of celebrating cheating.

Edited March 1, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fix quote

[ShatteredLady]

So true Liam.

My grandad used to frequent a pub with his friends. One day they discovered that a married friend with children was having an affair with the very attractive barmaid. He was completely ostracized. Everyone went silent when he walked in the pub & the publican told him that his money was no longer good. The men were truly disgusted by his behavior. His wife wondered why the women were bringing her cooked meals & clothes for the kids!

 

Fast forward to friends we have now. One man is "Getting off with the hot barmaid" & it feels like most of them are jealous!! "You go guy!!", "Lucky bastard! Hot wife AND hot side action!!". Not everyone but a LOT of married men. Times have changed & not for the better!

[underpants]

 

Would some of you be content on just living your entire life with just female/male romances that never wind up in marriage?

 

Thoughts?

 

Sure, I've never dated with the end goal of 'Marriage'. It is simply not a bucket list item for me to be content.

 

I am content on my own. If someone comes along and we enhance each others' lives for a season, reason, or even years or a lifetime, a marriage would not be necessary, nor really wanted, for that to 'mean something'. Society does like to judge, to society, I say kindly to mind the windows in your own house.

 

As I've gotten older, with the years of my hope for friends marriages, or elderly neighbors in decades long marriages have been peeled away layer by layer until I just no longer hope, and to be honest was always a little distrustful of the idea of signing your life, financial, and well being over to someone else, but hey, Disney. I think what a fool's errand. No worries, I've been a fool, just not an all in fool.

 

I no longer have a 'not for me but good for them' attitude, I just see cracks mostly and that does suck. I recall when all my friends got married thinking and telling some of them (about 10 couples, you will make it). Those were awesome couples, then it came down to 5. Over 20 years later I'm down to one and they are unhappy. I'm silent, but see so many cracks. I do see 2 second marriages (1 third) that I think are cool and really love each other.

 

Just a couple of weeks ago I had to visit a nursing home where a couple was celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary. The wife left the room and the husband was congratulated on 50 years and he responded 'there is no love, we have no love left with each other'. That made me sad. When she returned she just sat in a chair, looked at her watch and looked kind of miffed.

 

I never want to be the cause of someone's resentment, unwanted obligation or disdain. I'll take the free and yes often lonely single life as opposed to that hell.

 

I've been told by many people, all married that I have, or may have made a smart choice, by choosing to never marry. I find that interesting.

 

To each there own.

[Liam1]

Sure, I've never dated with the end goal of 'Marriage'. It is simply not a bucket list item for me to be content.

 

Well, nothing wrong with staying SINGLE and playing the field. If however someone chooses marriage, society should encourage and support monogamy.

 

How come it's not okay to break a business contract without being sued, but it is okay to break a marriage contract, without any real consequence. If that changed fewer people would create havoc by cheating.

 

 

I never want to be the cause of someone's resentment, unwanted obligation or disdain. I'll take the free and yes often lonely single life as opposed to that hell.

 

I've been told by many people, all married that I have, or may have made a smart choice, by choosing to never marry. I find that interesting.

 

To each there own.

If someone is miserable divorce is an option, not cheating. If cheating were not so celebrated in our society, fewer people would cheat.

 

BTW: It's kind of difficult to take you seriously with a screen name like "underpants" Just sayin'

[Liam1]

So true Liam.

My grandad used to frequent a pub with his friends. One day they discovered that a married friend with children was having an affair with the very attractive barmaid. He was completely ostracized. Everyone went silent when he walked in the pub & the publican told him that his money was no longer good. The men were truly disgusted by his behavior. His wife wondered why the women were bringing her cooked meals & clothes for the kids!

 

Fast forward to friends we have now. One man is "Getting off with the hot barmaid" & it feels like most of them are jealous!! "You go guy!!", "Lucky bastard! Hot wife AND hot side action!!". Not everyone but a LOT of married men. Times have changed & not for the better!

 

Good Point, shattered. It is true. I have never been out with a group of men of all ages and professions, who have not talked about cheating on their spouse.

 

It is encouraged, and some times it is encouraged very aggressively. It is a bit surreal, actually.

 

There are a lot of advantages to society to encourage monogamy.

[Dolfin80]

Looks like you need to change your circle of male friends. I wouldnt associate with abusive people like that. Best to surround yourself with positive loving people. Not people who pull you down in life.

[WasOtherWoman]

A person absolutely can say they'll never marry again, and mean it. It's a decision, not fortune-telling. I have no reason to marry again and no reason to risk letting yet another person screw up my life.

 

So if Mr Wonderful comes along, you're thinking that it's something that was unexpected and will cause a change of heart. It won't. He can be my bf but that's about as far as I'll ever want to take things.

 

I totally get that, I used to feel the same way.

 

But then I met my now husband and we lived together for two blissful years. Then he told me.... "I don't want to just live with you, I want the world to know that you are my wife. I want you to have all of the privileges, benefits and protection that being my wife affords you. I want my children to consider you family. I love you and I need to know that we are more committed than just being "significant others".

 

I was (still am!) madly in love with him and it was important to him, therefore it became important to me. Almost fifteen years ago, never regretted even a second of it.

 

I know that everyone does not change their mind, but because I love this man so much, I had to reconsider since it was so important to him.

[Liam1]

Looks like you need to change your circle of male friends. I wouldnt associate with abusive people like that. Best to surround yourself with positive loving people. Not people who pull you down in life.

 

The majority of these men are business associates. So I have no choice.

 

Still, I have friends who have never cheated who wonder about it every time they are hit on by an available woman.

 

Part of the problem, IMO, is that there is an ever increasing number of sexually aggressive women who are willing to sleep with men for the additional benefits.

 

These women.....some are college students actually target successful men at business functions to trade sex for paying rent or college bills.

 

So, here we have an ever increasing number of women willing to have sex for money.

 

What is your opinion of that?

[phillyisfun]

This is a question (the thread title) that has no factually objective answer. The answers are as personal as the individual. For some people, marriage is an outdated concept. Hooray for those people; they are free not to marry. For some people, it is still very relevant and desired. Those people are free to marry.

 

I will never understand why we need to make others' choices "wrong" when they are different from ours. Seems immature and intolerant to me.

[BettyDraper]

Sure, I've never dated with the end goal of 'Marriage'. It is simply not a bucket list item for me to be content.

 

I am content on my own. If someone comes along and we enhance each others' lives for a season, reason, or even years or a lifetime, a marriage would not be necessary, nor really wanted, for that to 'mean something'. Society does like to judge, to society, I say kindly to mind the windows in your own house.

 

As I've gotten older, with the years of my hope for friends marriages, or elderly neighbors in decades long marriages have been peeled away layer by layer until I just no longer hope, and to be honest was always a little distrustful of the idea of signing your life, financial, and well being over to someone else, but hey, Disney. I think what a fool's errand. No worries, I've been a fool, just not an all in fool.

 

I no longer have a 'not for me but good for them' attitude, I just see cracks mostly and that does suck. I recall when all my friends got married thinking and telling some of them (about 10 couples, you will make it). Those were awesome couples, then it came down to 5. Over 20 years later I'm down to one and they are unhappy. I'm silent, but see so many cracks. I do see 2 second marriages (1 third) that I think are cool and really love each other.

 

Just a couple of weeks ago I had to visit a nursing home where a couple was celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary. The wife left the room and the husband was congratulated on 50 years and he responded 'there is no love, we have no love left with each other'. That made me sad. When she returned she just sat in a chair, looked at her watch and looked kind of miffed.

 

I never want to be the cause of someone's resentment, unwanted obligation or disdain. I'll take the free and yes often lonely single life as opposed to that hell.

 

I've been told by many people, all married that I have, or may have made a smart choice, by choosing to never marry. I find that interesting.

 

To each there own.

 

Just as you should not be judged for eschewing marriage, it doesn't make sense to denounce marriage just because you don't believe in it.

 

There are happy marriages where resentment and obligation are not the reason the couple is together.

 

I'm wondering if others think that you're immature not because you don't want to get married but rather due to your need to take jabs at marriage itself. Marriage is not for everyone and I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting that. However, it's diplomatic to acknowledge that there could be healthy aspects of a decision that you would rather not make.

 

I choose not to have children and I receive a lot of backlash for that choice. There's no need for me to hate parenting and children because I don't think there's anything to be gained from such a limited viewpoint.

[BettyDraper]

This is a question (the thread title) that has no factually objective answer. The answers are as personal as the individual. For some people, marriage is an outdated concept. Hooray for those people; they are free not to marry. For some people, it is still very relevant and desired. Those people are free to marry.

 

I will never understand why we need to make others' choices "wrong" when they are different from ours. Seems immature and intolerant to me.

 

This!

[MJJean]

Part of the problem, IMO, is that there is an ever increasing number of sexually aggressive women who are willing to sleep with men for the additional benefits.

 

These women.....some are college students actually target successful men at business functions to trade sex for paying rent or college bills.

 

So, here we have an ever increasing number of women willing to have sex for money.

 

What is your opinion of that?

 

This is nothing new. It's called having a "sugar daddy" and the practice is as old as dirt.

 

150 years ago, these women and their sugar daddies would have kept their arrangement quiet. The woman, unless she married, would usually have a series of sugar daddies to help support her throughout her life. At least the more modern version includes some of these "kept women" getting educations so they can eventually become self supporting.

[Liam1]

This is nothing new. It's called having a "sugar daddy" and the practice is as old as dirt.

 

150 years ago, these women and their sugar daddies would have kept their arrangement quiet. The woman, unless she married, would usually have a series of sugar daddies to help support her throughout her life. At least the more modern version includes some of these "kept women" getting educations so they can eventually become self supporting.

 

Of course there have always been "Sugar Daddies" But not at the level it has risen to today.

 

It used to be considered unacceptable, but now it is okay. As was mentioned in another post, cheaters used to be shunned by respectable people.

 

Even you seem to imply that it is an okay way to pay for an education.

 

I am starting to find it annoying and disgusting, though, for young woman to degrade themselves this way and so willingly.

 

I am out at a business meeting and I am approached by a woman wanting to make this type of business arrangement. To that end they flirt and talk dirty and act like, well.......prostitutes.

 

Indeed, how is it any different than prostitution?

 

I can not even enjoy a conversation with a young woman anymore. I simply run from them because I don't know if they simply want conversation of if they are soliciting.

 

There are plenty of legitimate ways for a woman to become self-supporting these days, too

[William]

We already have a paying for companionship thread linked here:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/sexual-reproductive-health-practices/528139-consolidated-discussion-paying-female-companionship-pro-s-cons

 

Our directive will be to avoid meta-discussions of sugar daddies, prostitution, escorts, etc, in this thread and encourage those discussions in threads already running on those aspects of interpersonal relations which have existed throughout time. This thread is about whether or not marriage is an outdated concept and why or why not. Thanks!

[MJJean]

@William I think the sugar daddy concept is relevant. Instead of marrying for financial reasons, and perhaps divorcing once self supporting, more young women are choosing to enter into a temporary relationship for financial benefit instead.

 

But, yes, we should limit mention of these arrangements to if/how they are relate to marriage and if these financially based temporary relationships are, for lack of a better way to phrase it, helping make marriage obsolete.

[William]

I'm not interested in a debate. Look up the definition of what a meta-discussion is. Mention of the concept is fine; in-depth discussion of it as a side-topic is not. That's the directive.

[Dolfin80]

The majority of these men are business associates. So I have no choice.

 

Still, I have friends who have never cheated who wonder about it every time they are hit on by an available woman.

 

Part of the problem, IMO, is that there is an ever increasing number of sexually aggressive women who are willing to sleep with men for the additional benefits.

 

These women.....some are college students actually target successful men at business functions to trade sex for paying rent or college bills.

 

So, here we have an ever increasing number of women willing to have sex for money.

 

What is your opinion of that?

 

Wow that's unbelievable. I would just avoid socialising with my colleges if this was the case, too depressing to be around dodgy people. You don't want to be involved in depressing stuff like this, not good for your mental health.

[Liam1]

Wow that's unbelievable. I would just avoid socialising with my colleges if this was the case, too depressing to be around dodgy people. You don't want to be involved in depressing stuff like this, not good for your mental health.

 

Yes. In my situation it is extremely depressing.

 

Unfortunately business socializing is not an option. It's part of the job.

[Dolfin80]

This is a question (the thread title) that has no factually objective answer. The answers are as personal as the individual. For some people, marriage is an outdated concept. Hooray for those people; they are free not to marry. For some people, it is still very relevant and desired. Those people are free to marry.

 

I will never understand why we need to make others' choices "wrong" when they are different from ours. Seems immature and intolerant to me.

 

Yes so true