"I feel sorry for his wife"

[Midwestmissy]

Whoknew, from what I can gather, you and your husband know each other perfectly and completely, both cheated and it affected no one. You came from a family of supportive living cheaters and no one was affected. No negative impact or consequences, sounds like you all had ideal affairs. You are all unscathed, hate free and living the dream. You make that point repeatedly, I'm not sure why you need to convince anonymous people of your happiness. I can hash things out in writing, so I find these forums helpful and I enjoy other perspectives. And we are products of our experiences, therefore none of us are really "wrong" about how we perceive our own experiences.

 

My wh never stopped loving the children, he put his needs before them. We never fought about his affair in front of them, they found the ow emails. And they were furious. He missed meals and they put 2 and 2 together. They are hurt and trying to heal. They don't respect him. It grosses them out. His affair risked their financial security and emotional stability. Huge fallout. He will be the first person to tell you how the affair negatively impacted the kids. So will my 17yr old. I didn't put them in the middle of our marriage problems, he made the problem and wasn't around while we managed. My handling of it was never the issue, the issue was the deceit.

 

As for problems always existing, of course, but until a specific events triggers the stress of how you handle it, it doesn't mean that there was a 20 yr simmer. I was raped as a teen, it doesn't affect my life or simmer all the time under the surface. But I get a tightness in my chest at odd times, like when I'm alone in an elevator. Non sensical, but it always exists and has never impacted my marriage. My wh didn't have unmet needs until he couldn't express his needs. Those tensions weren't there until he was unexpectedly stressed by a business problem that blindsided him. Running away from it made it everyone's problem. He behaved immaturely when he never had before. So is he the dependable great partner and person I knew for 26 yrs or the eff up he was for 2 yrs?

[Whoknew30]

& they're clearly refering to cheating. this is an infidelity Forum -- we're not discussing "your a*s doesn't look big in those jeans" type of lies. we're discussing cheating, affairs, earthshattering type of lies.

 

here is the thing -- everyone lies is an irrelevant argument when discussing infidelity... & pretty much everything else. that way, we can tell "everyone does it" to almost every problem & completely minimize it. we can't act like we don't know the difference between THE LIE in the affair & THE LIE about do we really like the dress our friend is wearing. one lie carries serious longterm consequences, the other one doesn't. so it's really not up to one's perspective; it's up to CONSEQUENCES. if one lie has huge consequences, then it isn't a white lie -- even if it seems like that from your perspective.

 

acting like we don't know the difference between someone lying their way through an affair & telling a friend her dress is really nice (when we don't think so) -- maaaaaaaaajor responsibility avoidance.[/quote

 

 

A lie is a lie. If you look up the definition of something & there is only one definition, there is no perspective. Stealing is stealing, wether you take a Chapstick vs a million dollars. The definition doesn't change due to perspective.

[minimariah]

A lie is a lie...

 

a lie is a lie -- so you're putting EVERY lie in the same equally bad box.

 

does that mean that every marriage is the same? that every affair is equally bad? that every cheater is equally corrupted?

 

i mean... no. you cannot possibly compare a lie about going to someone's party & a lie about having an affair.

 

you can't quote me a dictionary definition either -- our entire society rejected that logic because it doesn't make any sense. how do we know that? because there are DEGREES of murder, for example. murder is murder -- no. it's not the same if it's a self defense murder, 1st degree or 2nd degree murder. if we stuck strictly to the dictionary definition, we'd have a failed justice system right now. and at the end of the day, the dictionary also offers a definition of a WHITE lie -- there's another degree of a lie.

 

you're going from one extreme to another -- not lying at all & lying in an affair -- to justify lying in general. because everyone does it and because we all lied dozens of times in our lives, we can't and don't have the right to judge others in their way through an affair. that's not how any of this works.

Edited February 15, 2016 by minimariah

[dreamingoftigers]

EVERYONE, in my family, friends & my kids friends, come to me about everything. I'm always the first to know bc I'm dead honest. Even when I say something they don't want to hear. Everyone has control over their own actions, including the action of allowing oneself to stay in a bad situation with a bad person.

 

That's a society explanation, so if the government tells you shouldn't lie it's not right but if you lie to a friend about why you're not going to their party...it's ok?

 

A lie is a lie, it's just how one wants to personally interpret it to themselves. IMO. Lies are supposed to be unacceptable all together but it's amazing how people turn it to suit themselves.

 

I've lied & I'll own it, just as I did my A but my lies aren't worse or better than anyone else's...just different. Like stealing, you could steal food to feed starving kids but its still stealing no matter if it is to feed someone or to line your pockets.

 

Something is what it is, no matter the package its wrapped in.

 

Oops.

 

Sounds like a "BS"

 

Or is this a question of degrees?

 

If we want to define acceptable levels of honesty on a relationship, I think pretty much everyone, with the exception of serial cheats can agree that lying about FIDELITY, the attitude toward FIDELITY and basic respect would be the sticking point.

[dreamingoftigers]

& they're clearly refering to cheating. this is an infidelity Forum -- we're not discussing "your a*s doesn't look big in those jeans" type of lies. we're discussing cheating, affairs, earthshattering type of lies.

 

here is the thing -- everyone lies is an irrelevant argument when discussing infidelity... & pretty much everything else. that way, we can tell "everyone does it" to almost every problem & completely minimize it. we can't act like we don't know the difference between THE LIE in the affair & THE LIE about do we really like the dress our friend is wearing. one lie carries serious longterm consequences, the other one doesn't. so it's really not up to one's perspective; it's up to CONSEQUENCES. if one lie has huge consequences, then it isn't a white lie -- even if it seems like that from your perspective.

 

acting like we don't know the difference between someone lying their way through an affair & telling a friend her dress is really nice (when we don't think so) -- maaaaaaaaajor responsibility avoidance.[/quote

 

 

A lie is a lie. If you look up the definition of something & there is only one definition, there is no perspective. Stealing is stealing, wether you take a Chapstick vs a million dollars. The definition doesn't change due to perspective.

 

Then according to yourself you are DEAD HONEST and then you lie and "own it."

 

The error in logic here broke one of Mudd's androids in Star Trek: The Original Series.

 

Quit breaking androids!

[Whoknew30]

Whoknew, from what I can gather, you and your husband know each other perfectly and completely, both cheated and it affected no one. You came from a family of supportive living cheaters and no one was affected. No negative impact or consequences, sounds like you all had ideal affairs. You are all unscathed, hate free and living the dream. You make that point repeatedly, I'm not sure why you need to convince anonymous people of your happiness. I can hash things out in writing, so I find these forums helpful and I enjoy other perspectives. And we are products of our experiences, therefore none of us are really "wrong" about how we perceive our own experiences.

 

My wh never stopped loving the children, he put his needs before them. We never fought about his affair in front of them, they found the ow emails. And they were furious. He missed meals and they put 2 and 2 together. They are hurt and trying to heal. They don't respect him. It grosses them out. His affair risked their financial security and emotional stability. Huge fallout. He will be the first person to tell you how the affair negatively impacted the kids. So will my 17yr old. I didn't put them in the middle of our marriage problems, he made the problem and wasn't around while we managed. My handling of it was never the issue, the issue was the deceit.

 

As for problems always existing, of course, but until a specific events triggers the stress of how you handle it, it doesn't mean that there was a 20 yr simmer. I was raped as a teen, it doesn't affect my life or simmer all the time under the surface. But I get a tightness in my chest at odd times, like when I'm alone in an elevator. Non sensical, but it always exists and has never impacted my marriage. My wh didn't have unmet needs until he couldn't express his needs. Those tensions weren't there until he was unexpectedly stressed by a business problem that blindsided him. Running away from it made it everyone's problem. He behaved immaturely when he never had before. So is he the dependable great partner and person I knew for 26 yrs or the eff up he was for 2 yrs?

 

 

You're putting words into my writing. Who said happy all of the time? Ive stated I watched many mistakes in my life from people that I love & yes I learned a lot from their mistakes, as one should. I always tell my kids learn from other's mistakes bc it much easier to learn that way bs making them yourself. This is a public forum with many different opinions, which I love to read bc it shows me different perspectives. I won't lie about what I have & have not allowed to affect me bc than i wouldn't be speaking my truth. I see things completely different & there isn't anything wrong with that. I've not once said anyone is wrong or right just simply give my perspective & if that truly bothers someone that's on them. Nothing on here makes me personally bothered & i also think writing is different than speaking bc when you're speaking you get more of a person's tone, which if you could hear mine you would know it's not in a negative way at all.

 

so when I ask, how one is so disconnected in a marriage & not see something is off, it's a ligit question. If a question like that offends or upsets a person, that is a problem, discomfort & or insecurity within that person, not the person asking the question. If me speaking my truth affects how someone feels, also not my problem.

 

My H & I didn't miss meals (or my dad) with the kids due to cheating & to say it did would be me lying. So in my situation I never felt short changed bc my dad had affairs & if that bothers you to hear that, well that's not my problem. This isn't a tit for tat, I'm simply explaining one can't generalize that an A caused that bc in my life (& others) it simply isn't true. I should lie? & I tell the truth I'm shoving it in someone's face.

 

I've not done that once, it's just my truth. I'm not out to convince no one of anything. I've never been like that nor would I turn that way now. I like asking questions. It's what I went to school for before I became sick. I've been through a lot in life in many different ways, I was exposed to a lot of things many years before I should have been & that's been my life & ive learned a lot from it & no I wouldn't change it (including the bad) bc I'm very comfortable with who I am bc of all I've seen & been through.

[RRM321]

I think there is the assumption by some, that the real man, his "true self" is the husband and father and that somehow he wasn't "himself" when he stepped out of the marriage. His wife(and BS) knows him inside out and the OW only knows a shell.

I do not really believe that is true.

 

I think it can go either way, there's no way to generalize about the psych health of the people who get mixed up in affairs. Some are probably otherwise mindful people who get lost, and at the other end are the personality disordered.

 

In my case, the WW turned out to be a con artist. So, in that sense I (the BS) and all the other MM (plural) knew a false character. Some of them were in it for fun, some wanted to step into my family and replace me, others had their own fantasy future. All were drawn into secret and twisted triangles of manipulation.

 

For people without empathy lies and deception are perfectly acceptable ways to get what they want. Everyone else is disposable; play any person off another - it's all about #1.

Edited February 15, 2016 by RRM321

[Whoknew30]

Oops.

 

Sounds like a "BS"

 

Or is this a question of degrees?

 

If we want to define acceptable levels of honesty on a relationship, I think pretty much everyone, with the exception of serial cheats can agree that lying about FIDELITY, the attitude toward FIDELITY and basic respect would be the sticking point.

 

I don't lie when someone asks be a question, even if my answer will hurt their feelings bc they're asking me. I definitely lie to get out of things!(as in parties & dinners) I also lie about how much things cost bc I don't want to hear it from my H but he already knows I lie about that, just as he lies about the same thing. We start laughing at each other when we ask about how much something was...& we ALL lie to my father Inlaw all the time bc he's so far out of left field no one wants to get into a real conversation with him...unfortunately we encourage the kids to lie to him too.

[dreamingoftigers]

Personally I don't think there is a 100% true self as the "self" is a plastic (changeable) thing.

 

There are certain templates we have and certain coping skills and mechanisms we develop over time. We aren't "completely plastic" but we are sort of "incrementally changeable."

 

I've changed a lot over the years and so have many others I've known. Even some if my fundamental beliefs have changed over the years. I expect that to happen.

 

Being a mother changed me. Just like becoming a wife did. I think the key is to have the basic template to keep the idea of growing and changing with one's spouse and keeping respect alive. A certain level of honesty is required for that.

[wmacbride]

People do change...in a way. You get older, your body doesn't hang as much as when younger, you have more responsibility BUT that carefree person is still inside. My kids changed me in a way but I'm still very much partly who I was.

 

That's why during in A (in a lot of cases, not all) people aren't lying to themselves, they just see that person they used to be before or they get to be who they really are without any of conflict from their spouse. I see that a lot! People having fun & being themselves then the spouse comes & it's like they have to put more on an act for their spouse vs their friends & family. Same thing with AP.

 

 

Sorry, but I think that theory is bullocks.

 

Think of it like being on vacation at one of those tacky all inclusive resorts. A person can go there and get hammered every day, lie on the beach, stuff their face at the buffet and generally act like a college kid, but do you really think that is who they are?

 

it's easy to say "society pressures us to be a certain way", but is that really true? I don;t know about you, but when I got married and became a parent, I also became an adult. I still have fun and can be carefree, but it will never be the same. I will never be the same. It will never be like when I was carefree and could go out and party all night, hitch across the country with friends of mine, etc.

 

That was my youth, and I experienced those things. That is who I was. I learned from that, and everything else, to become who I am today.

[dreamingoftigers]

I don't lie when someone asks be a question, even if my answer will hurt their feelings bc they're asking me. I definitely lie to get out of things!(as in parties & dinners) I also lie about how much things cost bc I don't want to hear it from my H but he already knows I lie about that, just as he lies about the same thing. We start laughing at each other when we ask about how much something was...& we ALL lie to my father Inlaw all the time bc he's so far out of left field no one wants to get into a real conversation with him...unfortunately we encourage the kids to lie to him too.

 

Okay, the personal inventory makes sense for you.

 

I'm trying to think about the stuff I Bullshyte about.

 

The short list is that I lie by omission about how much I spend on food regularly. I have a weight problem, I'm.embarrassed about it. A large part of me (probably my thighs) doesn't want to deal with it. There's other stuff. I can go into detail if required but I can assure you that most of it is boring.

 

But the issue raised was that in general people claim to be "honest" and then lie. You included. You aren't above your own definitions here.

 

The lies that I see BSs concerned with are FIDELITY lies. I think that only makes sense.

 

No one really cares of your husband said he likes your grandma's fruitcake when it made him constipated for 3 days. Okay? No one says "oh my gosh, he's been sleeping with that other woman AND HE DOESNT LIKE THE FRUITCAKE!? The other woman was bad but the fruitcake fakery is past the line!"

 

Lying about the BASIC mechanics of how you conduct your relationships is pretty dirty for everyone involved.

That's beyond grandma's fruitcake in the context we address. Again, CONTEXT.

 

The one thing the OW gets to see is how MM ACTUALLY operates the mechanics of his relationships. (Or reverse gender). She sees that he claims "married" and acts single. The sadness or whatever of the marriage isn't even a point. The fact is, he exists MARRIED and acts single. In most cases, had the wife been privy to this deception prior to marriage, sgevwoildnt have gone for that arrangement, including myself. Especially myself.

 

What the wife gets to see is how he responds within the marriage. The true actual conflict and coping abilities when the sh*t hits the fan. She gets to see what this person is really like. He's not just "stressed from work" or he's very sneaky etc. Short of those two worlds colliding, no one gets the majority picture of how this person handles the basic mechanics of a relationship.

[wmacbride]

But it is still behaviour. It still is. This brings to mind those few serial serial cheaters who have dared to tread these boards. Those who say I cheat... repeatedly. . then if I gst caught I deny and minimise and deflect to make the peace. So I can do it all over again.

 

These WSs have no incongruence at alll. They knowingly and calculatedly do what they do. And they are who they are. They are authentic. It's just that are totally unwilling to be wholly known --by anyone --for who they authenically are.

 

your post puts me in mind of a friend who was in an A. She was also highly religious, and would verbally flagellate herself for going against what she felt God expected of her

 

I asked her why, if she felt that way, did she continue to do what she did.

 

She couldn't answer, but I have often felt that the reason was twofold.

the first was she didn't feel guilty or bad enough to stop, and she was actually deriving pleasure from running herself down.

[Whoknew30]

Whoknew, from what I can gather, you and your husband know each other perfectly and completely, both cheated and it affected no one. You came from a family of supportive living cheaters and no one was affected. No negative impact or consequences, sounds like you all had ideal affairs. You are all unscathed, hate free and living the dream. You make that point repeatedly, I'm not sure why you need to convince anonymous people of your happiness. I can hash things out in writing, so I find these forums helpful and I enjoy other perspectives. And we are products of our experiences, therefore none of us are really "wrong" about how we perceive our own experiences.

 

My wh never stopped loving the children, he put his needs before them. We never fought about his affair in front of them, they found the ow emails. And they were furious. He missed meals and they put 2 and 2 together. They are hurt and trying to heal. They don't respect him. It grosses them out. His affair risked their financial security and emotional stability. Huge fallout. He will be the first person to tell you how the affair negatively impacted the kids. So will my 17yr old. I didn't put them in the middle of our marriage problems, he made the problem and wasn't around while we managed. My handling of it was never the issue, the issue was the deceit.

 

As for problems always existing, of course, but until a specific events triggers the stress of how you handle it, it doesn't mean that there was a 20 yr simmer. I was raped as a teen, it doesn't affect my life or simmer all the time under the surface. But I get a tightness in my chest at odd times, like when I'm alone in an elevator. Non sensical, but it always exists and has never impacted my marriage. My wh didn't have unmet needs until he couldn't express his needs. Those tensions weren't there until he was unexpectedly stressed by a business problem that blindsided him. Running away from it made it everyone's problem. He behaved immaturely when he never had before. So is he the dependable great partner and person I knew for 26 yrs or the eff up he was for 2 yrs?

 

 

Also i forgot to answer the question who asked...your H is both the same person. He's the great partner & the screw up. People are never just one thing. My dad great father, bad husband in his younger days, still same person.

[RRM321]

I think lies and deception are two different things.

 

To me, Lies are first and foremost avoidance. They can be impulsive, unprepared. We may in fact reverse, come clean, restore, or rectify consequences both minor or great. They are easier to forgive.

 

Deception is premeditated and requires some serious effort. It's a calculated, interlocking, and persistent web of lies where the consequences have been weighed and measured. This is not easy or even wise to forgive.

 

The WS who lands them self in a brief indiscretion lies. They haven't really thought anything through yet.

 

The WS who produces false documents and other phony details to feign a business trip when they're really on an extended tryst is to me, working at an entirely different level.

[Whoknew30]

Sorry, but I think that theory is bullocks.

 

Think of it like being on vacation at one of those tacky all inclusive resorts. A person can go there and get hammered every day, lie on the beach, stuff their face at the buffet and generally act like a college kid, but do you really think that is who they are?

 

it's easy to say "society pressures us to be a certain way", but is that really true? I don;t know about you, but when I got married and became a parent, I also became an adult. I still have fun and can be carefree, but it will never be the same. I will never be the same. It will never be like when I was carefree and could go out and party all night, hitch across the country with friends of mine, etc.

 

That was my youth, and I experienced those things. That is who I was. I learned from that, and everything else, to become who I am today.

 

Yes, I'm still that same person, I just have realize that responsibility is more important. On some occasions I can be that person (all inclusive resorts) & then I come home & let responsibility take back over.

[wmacbride]

Food for thought:

 

 

From thousands of controlled scientific studies and the field research done during this relatively short period, researchers and criminal investigators have amassed a considerable body of knowledge about deception—and how to detect it.

 

 

Here are some of their most remarkable findings so far:

 

1. Humans are lied to as many as 200 times a day.
   Social psychologist Jerald Jellison of the University of Southern California published this figure in his 1977 book, “I’m Sorry, I Didn’t Mean To, and Other Lies We Love To Tell.” The hard-to-believe figure, which of course includes the many innocent “white lies” we hear each day, was given further credence in a 2002 study by Robert Feldman of the University of Massachusetts, who found that on average, people told two to three lies in a ten-minute conversation.
   
2. Humans detect lies with only 54% accuracy.
   Our shockingly poor performance at lie detection is just slightly better than if we were to blindly guess. In all of the aggregated studies about how well we detect lies vs. truths, we have never fared better than 57% accuracy. The largest review, encompassing results from 206 academic studies that involved 24,000 individual judgments of lies and truths, found our mean performance to be 54%. Not even weather forecasters are that bad.
   
3. Between 75% and 82% of lies go undetected.
   Separate studies led by deception researchers Aldert Vrij and Bella DePaulo found that the overwhelming majority of lies went undetected.
   
4. Of the lies we tell, 25% are for someone else’s sake.
   Lies fall into three broad categories: those we tell for our own benefit, those that benefit someone else, and those that benefit both ourselves and others. A study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology found that at least a quarter of the time, our lies are for another person’s benefit. How thoughtful of us!
   
5. Children begin deceiving as early as age 6 months.
   Dr. Vasudevi Reddy of the University of Portsmouth identified 7 types of deception used by toddlers based on studies of 50 children and interviews with parents. For some, the deception began at 6 months with behavior such as pretend laughter, or crying when nothing was wrong just to get attention.
   
6. Gorillas, fish, birds, even orchids engage in deception.
   Humans aren’t the only species capable of lying, of course. What’s surprising is the extent to which other animals and even plants rely on deception to survive. In one comic example, the famous signing gorilla Koko blamed her pet kitten for ripping a sink out of the wall.
   
7. Avoiding eye contact is the most presumed sign of lying around the world—even though it’s false.
   A worldwide study led by researcher Charles Bond found that 72% of people cited avoiding eye contact or averting gaze as a sign of lying, more than any other indicator. Too bad it’s not true. Perhaps this is for part of the reason we’re so bad at detecting lies… we are focused on the wrong clues. People engaged in normal conversation only make direct eye contact 30-60% of the time.
   
8. Law enforcement officials—including FBI agents, customs agents and judges— performed no better than the average person in detecting deception.
   This shocking stat should put a big smile on a fraudster’s face. A study by Paul Ekman and Maureen O’Sullivan published in American Psychologist found that only members of the U.S. Secret Service consistently fared better than the average person’s 54% accuracy. If you’re an honest person caught up in an investigation, better hope the Secret Service is involved!
   
9. One in six juries reaches an incorrect verdict.
   Now that we know the average person is only 54% accurate at detecting lies, and policeman and judges are statistically no better, this absolutely stunning headline from a 2007 Northwestern University study shouldn’t really come as a surprise. But that doesn’t make it any more acceptable.
   
10. Training can improve a person’s lie detection ability by 25-50%.
    Despite our poor track record at catching lies, all hope is not lost. Several independent studies have found that training in the verbal and nonverbal clues of deception can significantly raise a person’s lie detection capability.
    

 

 

 

 

I find it interesting that in Western culture "white" lies are favored over the truth, but dishonesty is absolutely not tolerated in other situations.

 

 

 

Example, neighbor spends all day cooking a meal and brings some over for you. It tastes downright awful. Next time you see neighbor, he/she asks if you liked the food. What do you do? Spare feelings or be brutally honest?

 

 

Where do we draw the line? When does a "white" lie become black? Is a lie acceptable as long as it is made in an effort to protect another person's feelings? IMO, there are no clear answers; it boils down to perception.

 

 

Source:10 Research Findings About Deception That Will Blow Your Mind | Liespotting

 

Quite honestly, the only person I an control is myself. I have to live with what I do or don;t do, and being honest is important to me.

[dreamingoftigers]

Also i forgot to answer the question who asked...your H is both the same person. He's the great partner & the screw up. People are never just one thing. My dad great father, bad husband in his younger days, still same person.

 

In my case my father's affair was just another symptom of him being a crappy father.

 

However, he did work. A lot of men don't bother to even try to provide. He also did squander hundreds of thousands of my mother's money though. So whatever anyone wants to make of that. I don't think it should count as a big plus that at least he didn't sexually molest me. Big other than that he certainly tookma very big license of how I should be treated. Everythingbwas all about him. The affair was no different.

[wmacbride]

I couldn't love this post anymore than I do! If you read on here, no one lies...only the WS. Which IMO & statistically completely untrue like you posted.

 

100% agreed no clear answer.

 

 

Don't forget though, taht the ones who usually pay the highest prices for the lies of the ws and the ow is the bs and any children.

 

It's easy for a ws or ow or om to brush it off as " but I learned something" when the ones who are hurt the most are the ones who had little to no say in the matter. They had no way to negate their pain. the ws ow or om, did. They could have said no to the A and walked away.

[Whoknew30]

Okay, the personal inventory makes sense for you.

 

I'm trying to think about the stuff I Bullshyte about.

 

The short list is that I lie by omission about how much I spend on food regularly. I have a weight problem, I'm.embarrassed about it. A large part of me (probably my thighs) doesn't want to deal with it. There's other stuff. I can go into detail if required but I can assure you that most of it is boring.

 

But the issue raised was that in general people claim to be "honest" and then lie. You included. You aren't above your own definitions here.

 

The lies that I see BSs concerned with are FIDELITY lies. I think that only makes sense.

 

No one really cares of your husband said he likes your grandma's fruitcake when it made him constipated for 3 days. Okay? No one says "oh my gosh, he's been sleeping with that other woman AND HE DOESNT LIKE THE FRUITCAKE!? The other woman was bad but the fruitcake fakery is past the line!"

 

Lying about the BASIC mechanics of how you conduct your relationships is pretty dirty for everyone involved.

That's beyond grandma's fruitcake in the context we address. Again, CONTEXT.

 

The one thing the OW gets to see is how MM ACTUALLY operates the mechanics of his relationships. (Or reverse gender). She sees that he claims "married" and acts single. The sadness or whatever of the marriage isn't even a point. The fact is, he exists MARRIED and acts single. In most cases, had the wife been privy to this deception prior to marriage, sgevwoildnt have gone for that arrangement, including myself. Especially myself.

 

What the wife gets to see is how he responds within the marriage. The true actual conflict and coping abilities when the sh*t hits the fan. She gets to see what this person is really like. He's not just "stressed from work" or he's very sneaky etc. Short of those two worlds colliding, no one gets the majority picture of how this person handles the basic mechanics of a relationship.

 

 

It definitely is about how a WS handles the coping once caught. That's why when my H started cutting down his OW, I stopped him. IMO, when someone starts that, it's a copout & partly pushing blame. I never did that bc I don't cope that way, I cheated bc simply I wanted to, no ones fault but my own. Though in my situation, the OM truly saw what my H did, I was never some different person. I was so blunt in our reconciliation that my friends & family asked me what I was doing but after watching all the mistakes some of my family made I was hell bent on not repeating it bc I knew our marriage wouldn't ever get back to what I wanted it to be if I went down the route I watched. I made us both face our faults as individuals & a couple.

[wmacbride]

That's a society explanation, so if the government tells you shouldn't lie it's not right but if you lie to a friend about why you're not going to their party...it's ok?

 

A lie is a lie, it's just how one wants to personally interpret it to themselves. IMO. Lies are supposed to be unacceptable all together but it's amazing how people turn it to suit themselves.

 

I've lied & I'll own it, just as I did my A but my lies aren't worse or better than anyone else's...just different. Like stealing, you could steal food to feed starving kids but its still stealing no matter if it is to feed someone or to line your pockets.

 

Something is what it is, no matter the package its wrapped in.

 

Re:the starving kids analogy.

If someone has starving kids, they have options beyond stealing. they can go to a food bank, they can apply for social assistance, they can borrow money from friends, they can borrow food, heck, they can even beg if they have to.

 

A person entering into an A also has choices. They chose to cheat, and that lie s not the same as someone saying ' no honey, your dress doesn't make your rear end look like a bus" or " Brenda, that casserole is delicious" when it was really nasty.

 

As for the lies told during an A, if someone can't see the different between saying '"no, your dress doesn't make your rear end look like a bus" and " no honey, I am not sleeping with another person", then that's telling. That person is either rationalizing, or they have another issue.

[wmacbride]

Sometimes people that are hurt can be a little self righteous. Just bc your hurt or didn't hurt someone in the same way you were hurt doesn't mean you've never caused hurt to another in a different way. I get getting one's pain & hurt out but bc one was hurt doesn't automatically give them Saint status which I have read quite a bit.

 

 

That's like a child who got caught stealing money from mom's purse trying to negate the pain they caused by saying that yes they tried to steal the money, but their sister broke a dish.

 

How is one related to the other?

[Whoknew30]

Don't forget though, taht the ones who usually pay the highest prices for the lies of the ws and the ow is the bs and any children.

 

It's easy for a ws or ow or om to brush it off as " but I learned something" when the ones who are hurt the most are the ones who had little to no say in the matter. They had no way to negate their pain. the ws ow or om, did. They could have said no to the A and walked away.

 

I've had such a different experience with that. IMO, the BS hurts the most. The only time I've ever seen a child really hurt is when the WS stops being a parent to them, which happened to my H & best friend. Their mother's left them, not just their dad's, them as kids & that was awful to watch. The A part they got over they just never understood why their mom's left them. We were 6 when my best friend was abandoned by her mom at my house, her dad came to get her to tell her. So I went through that whole experience with her & that was a devastating thing to watch. We both watched the cheating & honestly that part didn't due any real damage to us as kids.

[wmacbride]

Personally I don't think there is a 100% true self as the "self" is a plastic (changeable) thing.

 

There are certain templates we have and certain coping skills and mechanisms we develop over time. We aren't "completely plastic" but we are sort of "incrementally changeable."

 

I've changed a lot over the years and so have many others I've known. Even some if my fundamental beliefs have changed over the years. I expect that to happen.

 

Being a mother changed me. Just like becoming a wife did. I think the key is to have the basic template to keep the idea of growing and changing with one's spouse and keeping respect alive. A certain level of honesty is required for that.

 

I get the idea you are a fellow Canadian, so I will respond to you like this...sorry if i offend your politics:lmao:

 

Your post reminds me of the saying about how someone is an NDP supporter when they are young, a liberal supporter in middle age and a con supporter when they are a senior ( I can't speak to the veracity of that, as I'm a Green, but it does illustrate what you say).

 

At any given point, we are the sum total of all of our life's experiences and the knowledge we have gained..

[wmacbride]

I've had such a different experience with that. IMO, the BS hurts the most. The only time I've ever seen a child really hurt is when the WS stops being a parent to them, which happened to my H & best friend. Their mother's left them, not just their dad's, them as kids & that was awful to watch. The A part they got over they just never understood why their mom's left them. We were 6 when my best friend was abandoned by her mom at my house, her dad came to get her to tell her. So I went through that whole experience with her & that was a devastating thing to watch. We both watched the cheating & honestly that part didn't due any real damage to us as kids.

 

Our kids were hurt, not because we let them see what was happening, but because they could sense something was wrong. Even our five year old knew something was up.

 

They didn't see us fight. Heck, my husband was thousands of km away, and we only got to chat through email a few times and talk on the phone one or twice.

 

We all went for fmaily therapy after he got back, and one thing that the therapist said struck home. Kids are far more sensitive than many realize, and they carry the knowledge of hurt with them. It shows up later, in other ways.

 

Just my opinion, but most people who cheat love their kids dearly and would do anything for them. They never, ever want to hurt them, so they convince themselves that what they are doing is harmless.

 

Sometimes, it is harmless, but many times it's not. Is it really worth that risk?

 

Again, sorry if I sound like I am snapping back at all your posts. It's just that I find your point of view interesting and you articulate it well.

[Whoknew30]

That's like a child who got caught stealing money from mom's purse trying to negate the pain they caused by saying that yes they tried to steal the money, but their sister broke a dish.

 

How is one related to the other?

 

IMO, completely different things.

 

If you read (not in every situation, which I get but a lot) most BS state the marriage was absolutely fine & if they hear anything the WS about themselves it's usually, "you cheated & that's the only thing that matters". Now it is true that cheating is wrong but it's also true that cheating is a symptom of a bigger problem with in the person or the marriage. Can you find many post in this section by a BS that didn't have the "perfect" marriage before cheating? Which means there are a lot of of "perfect" BS out there...99.9% of all BS on here are the perfect spouse & had the perfect marriage? All I'm saying is yes a BS has the right to be upset & vent but be realistic about it. No one is perfect, no marriage is perfect & to state that even in a rant is just unrealistic to me.