"I feel sorry for his wife"

[Whoknew30]

My wh wasn't finding his true free younger self by cheating, he was only lying to himself and everyone. And it was all done to justify his actions. Some of the lies were "this is a meaningless victimless fling. No one will ever find out, therefore no one gets hurt. The mow agrees on the loose terms of this arrangement and will not renege, I'm sleeping with her so I know her well. My wife doesn't care what I do. I'm entitled to this. The mow gets me and doesn't judge me. I'm a financial rock star to my mow's trailer park life." I think he felt sorry for himself. He was demeaning everyone and considered himself the prize everyone was fighting over. It was all crap. None of his excuses were remotely true. He was sleeping with someone he didn't even like because she enabled him to not look at himself at a time when he should have put on his big boy pants and manned up. He was in and out of the dr office because he had excruciating stress neck pain - she was literally a pain in his neck, her role as pleasure escape didn't completely happen because it was wrong and he knew it, no matter the spin he put on it nor the demonization of me.

 

As for not understanding how someone can hurt so deeply after a betrayal, some people just don't feel deeply. They're often the same ones who can cheat and blow it off. My wh was taught that deep feelings, truly feeling, was a sign of weakness. He missed out on the real highs and lows as a result. So he became someone who was either working or angry - any other emotions, specifically fear, insecurity and neediness, were tamped down. He never told me what he feared or what support he needed from me. He refused to express them, and it manifested itself into getting the wrong kind of validation from his affair. Being free and cheating isn't youthful evolved, it's weak. Young people can be impetuous and idiotic in their actions, it's what we learn from as we age. I'm who I was was when I was younger, but there's more depth to me because of my experiences and responsibilities. Partying at a frat house wouldn't make me cool and youthful right now, it would be pretty sad and gross. Sleeping in until noon and letting kids fend for themselves is not fun loving, it's irresponsible. Risking my children's future stability doesn't make me hip and fun loving, it makes me unfit. Doing whatever I want and never denying a whim, or sexual urge because I fancy myself entitled and special, plus my betrayed partner will pick up the slack, is idiocy. Continuing to grow as a person into a mature, feeling adult is not denying your true young free self, it's growing the eff up. And it's very sexy.

 

IMO, your H was being himself...he's a liar. A person doesn't wake up one day lie to the extent (you've stated) that your H did, usually that's been there for awhile & BS didn't see it. Now yes, some people will lie in certain situations for reasons maybe to protect their family for reasons of finances & such but if the WS was lying to AP & Bs & family, I don't believe one day that just started.

 

As for being fun & young acting, that's where responsibility comes in but some people take it the point of never really ever having fun anymore. While all my friends were at frat parties, I was in hospitals, trying to be a mom, wife, work & going to college. All things I had to let go, which personally taught me, there ALWAYS should be a balance in one's life, responsibly & fun. So if one is ever care free now they aren't good parents? I don't agree with that at all. During both my H & I A my child never lost out on her parents, not even close. My dad cheated, never did we feel cheated of a father having an A & being a crappy parent are two different things. Cheating doesn't always equal messing up your children's future. What about the people that want to leave, they should stay with their spouse for the kids? The kids eventually start their own life & leave the house, divorce only stops the couple from being married not the parents from being parents. Someone that doesn't put their kid first is a bad parent,I've seen that from people that aren't divorced.

 

Also it's one thing to feel deeply & very much another to want to die bc your marriage may not world out the way you saw it. I feel very deeply but I sure as hell won't put my life on the line for it. How is that putting the kids first? WS cheats & BS kills themselves, who's only thinking about themselves in that situation? IMO, that's the weak easy way out & that can't only mentally come from being cheated on, if that was true. 90% of my family would be dead.

[OneLov]

I believe the WS/WP is fundamentally the same person and only the perception of him/her has changed. There's no doubt people change and develope a higher sense of self with age; but coping mechanisms, personality traits, and emotional response to trauma largely remain unchanged from adolescense unless a person undertakes a concious and deliberate effort to change those lower-brain functions.

 

I guess what I am saying is that the WS/WP did not become conflict avoidant, entitled, dishonest, etc. over a period of time. -- he or she always had those traits. Before the infidelity those traits went largely unnoticed because, as humans, we tend to only perceive the good in those we love.

 

This thread made me think of an interview I recently watched. The mother of one of the killers of the Columbine HS mass shooting was being interviewed. She said she could sympathize 100% with the parents of the victims who blamed her for not getting her son help sooner or not dealing with her son's mental problems. But that was her son; it was hard to see the sociopathic traits or easy to dismiss them as inconsequential because she loved him.

 

So, IMO, it's a matter of perception. Usually after Dday, perceptions of the WS/WP change for both the BS/BP and the OM/OW. But, as others have said before, people do change in many ways and that includes their perceptions.

[jnel921]

I don't know - I am confused about this thread and even my responses. Sorry.

 

 

I am little confused too. First off as the BW I have to say I didn't have any demand after I was told about the A. I was very upset that I married someone whom I thought I knew, but clearly I didn't as he did this to me and to us. So in my heart and my mind he could have left, I could have told him to get out and I still would have went on with my life regardless. I prefer life without the lies. So I discovered I married a liar. I marry any real anyone as this is what he did and who he was. His begging and remorsefulness kept the door open for R and gave him the opportunity to redeem himself, repair the damage he caused to our M and reintroduce me to the man that he would become and whom I would fall in love with again.

 

If the OW felt sorry for me...she didn't know what the hell she was talking about. She didn't know me, just like I didn't know her. She only knew the lies she had been told. I knew that if these lies were good enough for her to spread them for anyone and everyone.... Then truly I feel sorry for HER!

 

That's not what great relationships are based on.

[Whoknew30]

I am little confused too. First off as the BW I have to say I didn't have any demand after I was told about the A. I was very upset that I married someone whom I thought I knew, but clearly I didn't as he did this to me and to us. So in my heart and my mind he could have left, I could have told him to get out and I still would have went on with my life regardless. I prefer life without the lies. So I discovered I married a liar. I marry any real anyone as this is what he did and who he was. His begging and remorsefulness kept the door open for R and gave him the opportunity to redeem himself, repair the damage he caused to our M and reintroduce me to the man that he would become and whom I would fall in love with again.

 

If the OW felt sorry for me...she didn't know what the hell she was talking about. She didn't know me, just like I didn't know her. She only knew the lies she had been told. I knew that if these lies were good enough for her to spread them for anyone and everyone.... Then truly I feel sorry for HER!

 

That's not what great relationships are based on.

 

I think feeling sorry for the wife comes after the affair fog wears off & OW realizes she dodged a bullet of ending up with a WS that does lie. I know my H OW said this to people & I get what she meant. If the OW is single the WH isn't really her problem at the end of the day & she gets to walk away clean. It goes both ways bc my ExOM got to walk away clean also but my H & I didn't think about that during reconciliation bc they didn't matter so we just let that all go...who cares what they say or think after a couple decides to try & work it out.

[Trishern]

Great conversation, thank you all- lots of different ways of looking at the same statement-

 

I guess some of it comes down to "do you believe in redemption"- do I believe my husband can regain who he once was- I think he can, otherwise I wouldn't be in reconciliation- I am not excusing his behavior, I am not saying it was a "mistake"- it was a calculated act and he changed who he was to be able to do it- why he did that is still up for debate-a simplified version is he became someone that associated power with what I consider the wrong things-

 

I suppose when the xAP says they feel sorry for the BS, it could be that the xAP doesn't think the WS is capable of change or the reconciliation is false-what puzzles me is, then why would they want to be with someone like that, why pine over a person that will never be remorseful, never want to change-

 

In the end, just as many xAPs can not understand my mind, I can not understand theirs either- but I do so appreciate those that engage in the conversation because I think it helps us all grow-even just a little-

 

Change is certainly possible and it does happen.

 

 

If a reformed convict can turn their life around, then a cheating spouse certainly can. they have to want to. We have to have faith in one' ability to change. What's matters most is that they hare truly remorseful.

 

 

Mrs T

[minimariah]

I suppose when the xAP says they feel sorry for the BS, it could be that the xAP doesn't think the WS is capable of change or the reconciliation is false-

 

i'll try to chime in.

 

i think WS is capable of change and redemption -- i just don't believe they respect their spouses. and to me, love without respect is impossible. there are exceptions, of course. every situation is different but to many folks... affair is some kind of proof that there is no love in the relationship. that's why the AP is "okay" with being in love with a liar and a cheater. because they're convinced that they won't lie to that same AP; they only lie to the other person, that they don't love. that's how it usually looks from where the AP is standing. you don't look at it as some kind of personality flaw, but rather as an exception.

 

 

i'm totally guilty of saying -- i feel sorry for his wife -- but it usually means i'm sorry for the pain that person is going through. when i say that for a couple who is trying to reconcile... i always think of it in "sheesh, she deserves so much better" way.

Edited February 15, 2016 by minimariah

[cocorico]

 

i think WS is capable of change and redemption -- i just don't believe they respect their spouses. and to me, love without respect is impossible. there are exceptions, of course. every situation is different but to many folks... affair is some kind of proof that there is no love in the relationship. that's why the AP is "okay" with being in love with a liar and a cheater. because they're convinced that they won't lie to that same AP; they only lie to the other person, that they don't love. that's how it usually looks from where the AP is standing. you don't look at it as some kind of personality flaw, but rather as an exception.

 

This rings true.

[gettingstronger]

i'll try to chime in.

 

i think WS is capable of change and redemption -- i just don't believe they respect their spouses. and to me, love without respect is impossible. there are exceptions, of course. every situation is different but to many folks... affair is some kind of proof that there is no love in the relationship. that's why the AP is "okay" with being in love with a liar and a cheater. because they're convinced that they won't lie to that same AP; they only lie to the other person, that they don't love. that's how it usually looks from where the AP is standing. you don't look at it as some kind of personality flaw, but rather as an exception.

 

 

i'm totally guilty of saying -- i feel sorry for his wife -- but it usually means i'm sorry for the pain that person is going through. when i say that for a couple who is trying to reconcile... i always think of it in "sheesh, she deserves so much better" way.

 

 

 

 

That may be the case during the affair, but I don't see many feeling bad for the spouse during the affair-its usually after, when the married partner has decided to work on their marriage-so, maybe the xAP feels like they are the only one the married person could change for, not for their wife-

 

The whole "dodged a bullet" usually rings true for me when the married person has moved on to another affair, the married person is still stringing along the xAP, etc...

[minimariah]

That may be the case during the affair, but I don't see many feeling bad for the spouse during the affair-its usually after, when the married partner has decided to work on their marriage-so, maybe the xAP feels like they are the only one the married person could change for, not for their wife-

 

it's definitely a coping mechanism. you'll notice one thing: when in the affair -- the AP usually doesn't have a problem with the WS cheating and lying. when the WS chooses their spouse after all, suddenly it's like this: "who needs that cheater anyway!" SUDDENLY, the cheating and lying IS a problem and suddenly, that's not the person they want to be with. SUDDENLY, they feel sorry for the BS and whew! they dodged a bullet... that same bullet they wanted for the rest of their lives just a couple of days before. same with the BS who take their WS back and then the WS ends up dumping them.

 

so it's definitely a coping mechanism. and we do it in all aspects of our lives, i think. we all have our points of view and we all try to justify our actions.

 

the xAP, in my opinion, doesn't think the WS needs a change. they usually believe that the cheating and lying are OUT of their lover's character and direct result of their bad marriage/relationship. when you look at it like that, it's really not about the person... the fault lies in the circumstances. so when you remove the circumstances, the APs believe their WSs will be faithful.

 

many do counseling together and stuff but they don't really want their WS to change, you know? because the WS isn't lying and cheating to THEM, they do it to the BS that (from the AP's view) they don't love and aren't happy with. so from the AP's view - that kind of behavior won't repeat because the dynamic of their relationship is different than the one present in the relationship with the BS and they think of their love as more honest, strong, pure. that kind of thinking is even more encouraged in the situation where the WS cheats for the first time. you can't ever know that for sure, of course... but when you have someone who was faithful for years and cheats for the first time at age 45, let's say? you won't really think of them as a cheater or a liar. more an unhappy man who met his soulmate at tough circumstances.

 

even furthermore! some WHs are perceived as HONORABLE for staying in their marriages and not leaving even though they aren't happy - for some, it's better that they cheat but stay with the family VS. divorce. that's sometimes viewed as selfless, even.

 

many different situations, many different points of view.

 

it's different with serial cheaters who can't point out the reason for their cheating though.

Edited February 15, 2016 by minimariah

[Midwestmissy]

Wh wasn't a full blown liar before the affair. Circumstances changed and he coped like a loser. He said he never thought about the negative - the other bs, her 4 kids, the risk of a lawsuit, stds. The fact that the mow was industry bicycle, her admission that she had slept with every boss she'd had and hadn't climbed any ladders. Missing kids events by telling himself they were minor and the kids didn't care if he showed or not. He gave himself permission to justify every crisis of conscience with a simple wave of the hand. He told me yesterday that all they did was use each other - he thought he was in control, but neither one was, it all out of control and they convinced themselves it was all good. They both knew they were liars, but they were good people who were lying. It makes no sense logically. I've been with him since I was 18, we are kissing 50 now. He knew her 4 months before he slept with her. They weren't soul mates and they didn't know eachother. He didn't know where she lived or if she had a dog or what she did when she wasn't with him. He didn't care, it wasn't relevant to the transaction he was making. She served one purpose to him -false flattery, and his role to her was work relevancy. They had sex as a means to those ends. She is far away from us now, and probably on to the next man she can use. My wh is mortified and pretty grossed out by her.

 

He and I have grown up together. We had never had a problem in our relationship that had caused an issue like this. So this wasn't a final straw, it was an aberration, so I'm allowing him to make amends. It's up to him to do the work. If he fails and I'm not secure in his remorse, I have to go. The foundation of the relationship is changed. I can leave at any time and he will know it's because I can't forgive the affair, that he caused the marriage to fail. The affair didn't magnify problems in the marriage, they showed clearly that he has problems that have not been addressed. And he's been working on those issues now.

[WasOtherWoman]

As a BW, many years ago, I was highly offended at the thought of anyone (including the OW) feeling sorry for me. On my worst day, I felt I was still better off than 99% of the people in the world).

 

As an OW, I did not feel sorry for his wife. I did feel sorry that I could potentially be the cause of pain for her, but I did not feel sorry for her.

[Midwestmissy]

I also believe that people in affairs harm their kids, they just don't want to admit it because it's too ugly to accept. My husband claimed they weren't affected until he couldn't deny it any more and they realized what he had risked. And being self centred little buggers that kids are, they unleashed on him. The mental abuse of their mother most definitely affected them. The tension was horrid.

[SolG]

I don't understand the point of most of this and can't figure out if it's a philosophy designed to outwit free will or what, but the last paragraph does finally become human and ring true.

 

Sorry to confuse. I guess it could be construed as philosophical.... but in my opinion it's also practical. I've come to the belief that all Rs have intimacy as their basis; it's the degree that varies.And by intimacy I mean the pure latin root definition; innermost, deepest, profound knowing.And the variation arises from the inevitable tension between the conflicting desire to be loved for who we are, and the fear of being completely known for who we are and the risk of rejection that entails.

 

We all by and large control the degree to which we wish to be known. It is not at all about outwitting free will, but rather acknowledging that every action is the result of free will.

 

I believe that by and large As are a manifestation of intimacy control. A WS for whatever reason has a part of themselves they withold from their BS. A desire, a fear, an anxiety... maybe they fear the revelation will deem them unlovable, or weak, or perverted, or just upset the status quo they find so comfortable. But if it's a part of themselves they can't suppress, they seek its expression elsewhere. Hence the A.

 

I'm not at all saying that all As have only superficial levels of intimacy, but the amount of OW/M lamenting that they do not know what the MM/W is thinking or feeling or their motivation does point to this. If the MM/W wanted to be known, there would be far fewer of these questions.

 

And my point about authenticity vs congruence is that the behaviour itself is not the crux of the matter. The bahaviour is and can't be undone. It's the level of congruence of that behaviour with underlying beliefs and values that matter. A serial cheater who believes that it's ok to have frequent meaningless sex is not remorseful as what they are doing aligns with their beliefs; they'll continue to withold this part of themselves from their BS (and their APs) forever. But the WS whose actions belie a belief that cheating is deeply wrong will experience pain and dissonance.

 

It's the latter group that are remorseful and can hopefully restore the balance of intimacy in their M. When I read stories of reconciliation I recognise these WS as the ones who return to their BS and lay themselves on the line despite the risk and pain and say here I am. I want you to know more of me and what I'm capable of; even though you may not like this part of me and may reject me because of it. I'm sorry, I love you, and I want you to know me.

 

I think this is why some actually say that an A was the catalyst for them building a better M. Because sometimes it can be a pathway to individuals recognising and knocking down their internal barriers to greater intimacy and allowing their partner to know (and love) them more.

 

So sometimes when an AP says I feel sorry for the BS it's because they don't know the WS at all, and sometimes it's because they do know them enough to know they'll continue to withold and do what they do. In either case I think pity is a small and generally misplaced sentiment that comes from a perceived sense of superiority. It kind of denies the innate strength we all have, even if unrecognised. As I stated before, what I feel is sorrow for all and their unique human struggle.

[Whoknew30]

I also believe that people in affairs harm their kids, they just don't want to admit it because it's too ugly to accept. My husband claimed they weren't affected until he couldn't deny it any more and they realized what he had risked. And being self centred little buggers that kids are, they unleashed on him. The mental abuse of their mother most definitely affected them. The tension was horrid.

 

I don't agree with this at all. I think if you (WS or BS) put your kids in the middle of your couple's problems you're both in the wrong. Cheating doesn't equal messed up kids & not cheating doesn't equal emotionally healthy kids. It's how you are as a parent point blank. I HATED hearing my dad was this or that bc I wasn't his wife, I was his daughter & he was a great dad. My mother (which I love to death) chose to forgive him & that was on her. No matter what was going on they both made me feel loved & that no matter what happened my siblings & I would come first, which we did. My mother never looked at us & said look what your father is doing to "us", it was look what he did to me. Even after being cheated on my mom always said my dad was a great dad & he was & is. If your H wasn't, well that has nothing to do with who he was sleeping with, he was not only a crappy H but evidently a crappy father. Your kids shouldn't have to fight marriage battles for either parent.

 

This "they cheated on whole family" doesn't fly with me bc I've seen to many WS leave & still very much have a good relationship with their kids.

[Whoknew30]

Wh wasn't a full blown liar before the affair. Circumstances changed and he coped like a loser. He said he never thought about the negative - the other bs, her 4 kids, the risk of a lawsuit, stds. The fact that the mow was industry bicycle, her admission that she had slept with every boss she'd had and hadn't climbed any ladders. Missing kids events by telling himself they were minor and the kids didn't care if he showed or not. He gave himself permission to justify every crisis of conscience with a simple wave of the hand. He told me yesterday that all they did was use each other - he thought he was in control, but neither one was, it all out of control and they convinced themselves it was all good. They both knew they were liars, but they were good people who were lying. It makes no sense logically. I've been with him since I was 18, we are kissing 50 now. He knew her 4 months before he slept with her. They weren't soul mates and they didn't know eachother. He didn't know where she lived or if she had a dog or what she did when she wasn't with him. He didn't care, it wasn't relevant to the transaction he was making. She served one purpose to him -false flattery, and his role to her was work relevancy. They had sex as a means to those ends. She is far away from us now, and probably on to the next man she can use. My wh is mortified and pretty grossed out by her.

 

He and I have grown up together. We had never had a problem in our relationship that had caused an issue like this. So this wasn't a final straw, it was an aberration, so I'm allowing him to make amends. It's up to him to do the work. If he fails and I'm not secure in his remorse, I have to go. The foundation of the relationship is changed. I can leave at any time and he will know it's because I can't forgive the affair, that he caused the marriage to fail. The affair didn't magnify problems in the marriage, they showed clearly that he has problems that have not been addressed. And he's been working on those issues now.

 

 

You just said yourself that he had problems that were never addressed, which means they were always there during your relationship. Problems that all those years you didn't see as his wife. That's my point, he was the same person during the A as he was before, all those problems he didn't know how to deal with were lurking for all those years, they didn't pop up one day or he turned into some different person.

 

My mom stayed with my dad bc she knew his problems & why he handled them that way, I stayed & wanted to work on my marriage for the same reasons. Nothing that came out in MC was ever a shock to me (or my mom) nor my H about what our individual problems were, it was how we chose to handle them. So how as his wife to say you never had problems in the marriage but had no idea of your H internal problems all those years. It sounds very disconnected to me, which happens but how can one say that isn't a problem that has to with their marriage?

 

I knew my H history & that my sickness really took a toll on us a couple & he handled it wrong. I tried fixing my marriage years before it got to the point of my exit A bc I knew their was a problem within him bc I was with him so young.I guess I'm always baffled by a spouse (man or woman) that finds out their we're all these problems with in their spouse but never knew.

 

I'm not saying A are right bc they're not but I just find it difficult to understand how really disconnected some couples can be & think that isn't a problem either.

[OneLov]

Food for thought:

 

 

From thousands of controlled scientific studies and the field research done during this relatively short period, researchers and criminal investigators have amassed a considerable body of knowledge about deception—and how to detect it.

 

 

Here are some of their most remarkable findings so far:

 

1. Humans are lied to as many as 200 times a day.
   Social psychologist Jerald Jellison of the University of Southern California published this figure in his 1977 book, “I’m Sorry, I Didn’t Mean To, and Other Lies We Love To Tell.” The hard-to-believe figure, which of course includes the many innocent “white lies” we hear each day, was given further credence in a 2002 study by Robert Feldman of the University of Massachusetts, who found that on average, people told two to three lies in a ten-minute conversation.
   
2. Humans detect lies with only 54% accuracy.
   Our shockingly poor performance at lie detection is just slightly better than if we were to blindly guess. In all of the aggregated studies about how well we detect lies vs. truths, we have never fared better than 57% accuracy. The largest review, encompassing results from 206 academic studies that involved 24,000 individual judgments of lies and truths, found our mean performance to be 54%. Not even weather forecasters are that bad.
   
3. Between 75% and 82% of lies go undetected.
   Separate studies led by deception researchers Aldert Vrij and Bella DePaulo found that the overwhelming majority of lies went undetected.
   
4. Of the lies we tell, 25% are for someone else’s sake.
   Lies fall into three broad categories: those we tell for our own benefit, those that benefit someone else, and those that benefit both ourselves and others. A study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology found that at least a quarter of the time, our lies are for another person’s benefit. How thoughtful of us!
   
5. Children begin deceiving as early as age 6 months.
   Dr. Vasudevi Reddy of the University of Portsmouth identified 7 types of deception used by toddlers based on studies of 50 children and interviews with parents. For some, the deception began at 6 months with behavior such as pretend laughter, or crying when nothing was wrong just to get attention.
   
6. Gorillas, fish, birds, even orchids engage in deception.
   Humans aren’t the only species capable of lying, of course. What’s surprising is the extent to which other animals and even plants rely on deception to survive. In one comic example, the famous signing gorilla Koko blamed her pet kitten for ripping a sink out of the wall.
   
7. Avoiding eye contact is the most presumed sign of lying around the world—even though it’s false.
   A worldwide study led by researcher Charles Bond found that 72% of people cited avoiding eye contact or averting gaze as a sign of lying, more than any other indicator. Too bad it’s not true. Perhaps this is for part of the reason we’re so bad at detecting lies… we are focused on the wrong clues. People engaged in normal conversation only make direct eye contact 30-60% of the time.
   
8. Law enforcement officials—including FBI agents, customs agents and judges— performed no better than the average person in detecting deception.
   This shocking stat should put a big smile on a fraudster’s face. A study by Paul Ekman and Maureen O’Sullivan published in American Psychologist found that only members of the U.S. Secret Service consistently fared better than the average person’s 54% accuracy. If you’re an honest person caught up in an investigation, better hope the Secret Service is involved!
   
9. One in six juries reaches an incorrect verdict.
   Now that we know the average person is only 54% accurate at detecting lies, and policeman and judges are statistically no better, this absolutely stunning headline from a 2007 Northwestern University study shouldn’t really come as a surprise. But that doesn’t make it any more acceptable.
   
10. Training can improve a person’s lie detection ability by 25-50%.
    Despite our poor track record at catching lies, all hope is not lost. Several independent studies have found that training in the verbal and nonverbal clues of deception can significantly raise a person’s lie detection capability.
    

 

 

 

 

I find it interesting that in Western culture "white" lies are favored over the truth, but dishonesty is absolutely not tolerated in other situations.

 

 

 

Example, neighbor spends all day cooking a meal and brings some over for you. It tastes downright awful. Next time you see neighbor, he/she asks if you liked the food. What do you do? Spare feelings or be brutally honest?

 

 

Where do we draw the line? When does a "white" lie become black? Is a lie acceptable as long as it is made in an effort to protect another person's feelings? IMO, there are no clear answers; it boils down to perception.

 

 

Source:10 Research Findings About Deception That Will Blow Your Mind | Liespotting

[Whoknew30]

Food for thought:

 

 

From thousands of controlled scientific studies and the field research done during this relatively short period, researchers and criminal investigators have amassed a considerable body of knowledge about deception—and how to detect it.

 

 

Here are some of their most remarkable findings so far:

 

1. Humans are lied to as many as 200 times a day.
   Social psychologist Jerald Jellison of the University of Southern California published this figure in his 1977 book, “I’m Sorry, I Didn’t Mean To, and Other Lies We Love To Tell.” The hard-to-believe figure, which of course includes the many innocent “white lies” we hear each day, was given further credence in a 2002 study by Robert Feldman of the University of Massachusetts, who found that on average, people told two to three lies in a ten-minute conversation.
   
2. Humans detect lies with only 54% accuracy.
   Our shockingly poor performance at lie detection is just slightly better than if we were to blindly guess. In all of the aggregated studies about how well we detect lies vs. truths, we have never fared better than 57% accuracy. The largest review, encompassing results from 206 academic studies that involved 24,000 individual judgments of lies and truths, found our mean performance to be 54%. Not even weather forecasters are that bad.
   
3. Between 75% and 82% of lies go undetected.
   Separate studies led by deception researchers Aldert Vrij and Bella DePaulo found that the overwhelming majority of lies went undetected.
   
4. Of the lies we tell, 25% are for someone else’s sake.
   Lies fall into three broad categories: those we tell for our own benefit, those that benefit someone else, and those that benefit both ourselves and others. A study published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology found that at least a quarter of the time, our lies are for another person’s benefit. How thoughtful of us!
   
5. Children begin deceiving as early as age 6 months.
   Dr. Vasudevi Reddy of the University of Portsmouth identified 7 types of deception used by toddlers based on studies of 50 children and interviews with parents. For some, the deception began at 6 months with behavior such as pretend laughter, or crying when nothing was wrong just to get attention.
   
6. Gorillas, fish, birds, even orchids engage in deception.
   Humans aren’t the only species capable of lying, of course. What’s surprising is the extent to which other animals and even plants rely on deception to survive. In one comic example, the famous signing gorilla Koko blamed her pet kitten for ripping a sink out of the wall.
   
7. Avoiding eye contact is the most presumed sign of lying around the world—even though it’s false.
   A worldwide study led by researcher Charles Bond found that 72% of people cited avoiding eye contact or averting gaze as a sign of lying, more than any other indicator. Too bad it’s not true. Perhaps this is for part of the reason we’re so bad at detecting lies… we are focused on the wrong clues. People engaged in normal conversation only make direct eye contact 30-60% of the time.
   
8. Law enforcement officials—including FBI agents, customs agents and judges— performed no better than the average person in detecting deception.
   This shocking stat should put a big smile on a fraudster’s face. A study by Paul Ekman and Maureen O’Sullivan published in American Psychologist found that only members of the U.S. Secret Service consistently fared better than the average person’s 54% accuracy. If you’re an honest person caught up in an investigation, better hope the Secret Service is involved!
   
9. One in six juries reaches an incorrect verdict.
   Now that we know the average person is only 54% accurate at detecting lies, and policeman and judges are statistically no better, this absolutely stunning headline from a 2007 Northwestern University study shouldn’t really come as a surprise. But that doesn’t make it any more acceptable.
   
10. Training can improve a person’s lie detection ability by 25-50%.
    Despite our poor track record at catching lies, all hope is not lost. Several independent studies have found that training in the verbal and nonverbal clues of deception can significantly raise a person’s lie detection capability.
    

 

 

 

 

I find it interesting that in Western culture "white" lies are favored over the truth, but dishonesty is absolutely not tolerated in other situations.

 

 

 

Example, neighbor spends all day cooking a meal and brings some over for you. It tastes downright awful. Next time you see neighbor, he/she asks if you liked the food. What do you do? Spare feelings or be brutally honest?

 

 

Where do we draw the line? When does a "white" lie become black? Is a lie acceptable as long as it is made in an effort to protect another person's feelings? IMO, there are no clear answers; it boils down to perception.

 

 

Source:10 Research Findings About Deception That Will Blow Your Mind | Liespotting

 

 

I couldn't love this post anymore than I do! If you read on here, no one lies...only the WS. Which IMO & statistically completely untrue like you posted.

 

100% agreed no clear answer.

[ShatteredLady]

Everyone on the forum thinks that only the WS tells lies???? What???? Really, WHAT????

 

I think we all bring our own histories here (as we do in all things in life) sometimes that makes us a little...bias? misinterpreting? paranoid?

[minimariah]

Where do we draw the line? When does a "white" lie become black? Is a lie acceptable as long as it is made in an effort to protect another person's feelings? IMO, there are no clear answers; it boils down to perception.

 

i disagree -- there are clear answers.

 

for example, it is not acceptable to lie in front of the court in order to protect a loved one. that's just ONE example of a very clear line. it's also not acceptable to lie about your affairs while you're having unprotected sex & end up giving your spouse HIV -- that can ALSO land you in jail, in many states.

 

so yeah... there are clear answers. it's just easier to act like there is none and well, EVERYBODY LIES, because it easies our own guilt + removes personal responsibility. we know very well where's the line. we just choose not to see. that's really it.

[Whoknew30]

Everyone on the forum thinks that only the WS tells lies???? What???? Really, WHAT????

 

I think we all bring our own histories here (as we do in all things in life) sometimes that makes us a little...bias? misinterpreting? paranoid?

 

If you read a lot of the posts on here, you'll read A LOT of the BS stating they don't lie. I've read it over & over again. Which I've said (if one is religious) the only walking person that had never told a lie was Jesus.

 

It's why agree with the above poster & have said, everyone lies in life...everyone. It's not a misinterpretation, read more posts. Now if someone said, I have not lied to the degree that another has, well that may be more true of a statement but often not how it's written.

[ShatteredLady]

I don't read it like that. I truly don't. OK mostly I only read this one, the marriage forum & the OW/OM forum. All I see is a lot of people in a lot of pain. On this infidelity forum there are a lot of very fresh BS, just as the OW forum has a lot of people with broken hearts & confusion. I read agony, devastation NOT self righteous grandiosity.

[Whoknew30]

i disagree -- there are clear answers.

 

for example, it is not acceptable to lie in front of the court in order to protect a loved one. that's just ONE example of a very clear line. it's also not acceptable to lie about your affairs while you're having unprotected sex & end up giving your spouse HIV -- that can ALSO land you in jail, in many states.

 

so yeah... there are clear answers. it's just easier to act like there is none and well, EVERYBODY LIES, because it easies our own guilt + removes personal responsibility. we know very well where's the line. we just choose not to see. that's really it.

 

That's a society explanation, so if the government tells you shouldn't lie it's not right but if you lie to a friend about why you're not going to their party...it's ok?

 

A lie is a lie, it's just how one wants to personally interpret it to themselves. IMO. Lies are supposed to be unacceptable all together but it's amazing how people turn it to suit themselves.

 

I've lied & I'll own it, just as I did my A but my lies aren't worse or better than anyone else's...just different. Like stealing, you could steal food to feed starving kids but its still stealing no matter if it is to feed someone or to line your pockets.

 

Something is what it is, no matter the package its wrapped in.

[minimariah]

If you read a lot of the posts on here, you'll read A LOT of the BS stating they don't lie. I've read it over & over again.

 

& they're clearly refering to cheating. this is an infidelity Forum -- we're not discussing "your a*s doesn't look big in those jeans" type of lies. we're discussing cheating, affairs, earthshattering type of lies.

 

here is the thing -- everyone lies is an irrelevant argument when discussing infidelity... & pretty much everything else. that way, we can tell "everyone does it" to almost every problem & completely minimize it. we can't act like we don't know the difference between THE LIE in the affair & THE LIE about do we really like the dress our friend is wearing. one lie carries serious longterm consequences, the other one doesn't. so it's really not up to one's perspective; it's up to CONSEQUENCES. if one lie has huge consequences, then it isn't a white lie -- even if it seems like that from your perspective.

 

acting like we don't know the difference between someone lying their way through an affair & telling a friend her dress is really nice (when we don't think so) -- maaaaaaaaajor responsibility avoidance.

[Whoknew30]

I don't read it like that. I truly don't. OK mostly I only read this one, the marriage forum & the OW/OM forum. All I see is a lot of people in a lot of pain. On this infidelity forum there are a lot of very fresh BS, just as the OW forum has a lot of people with broken hearts & confusion. I read agony, devastation NOT self righteous grandiosity.

 

Sometimes people that are hurt can be a little self righteous. Just bc your hurt or didn't hurt someone in the same way you were hurt doesn't mean you've never caused hurt to another in a different way. I get getting one's pain & hurt out but bc one was hurt doesn't automatically give them Saint status which I have read quite a bit.

 

I read quite a bit, what I've done in my life has never been as bad as what was done to me, in so many words.

[gettingstronger]

If you read a lot of the posts on here, you'll read A LOT of the BS stating they don't lie. I've read it over & over again. Which I've said (if one is religious) the only walking person that had never told a lie was Jesus.

 

It's why agree with the above poster & have said, everyone lies in life...everyone. It's not a misinterpretation, read more posts. Now if someone said, I have not lied to the degree that another has, well that may be more true of a statement but often not how it's written.

 

Wait, what? Not even close-thats, well a lie.....

 

I think what we are discussing are bold faced lies- lies meant to hide hurtful behaviors- to twist it around is best explained by minimariahs post-

 

On the topic of lying- my husband did become a chronic liar during his affair- about the dumbest stuff too- in hindsight, I recall lots of "tall tales" at parties about his life, I called him on it a few times in the car on the way home and he would say 'just spicing up the story" maybe it was a red flag I missed, who knows- I do know that now he does not "spice up" his stories to that degree- I do know from the intrusions from our OW he did lots of spicing up of stories about our lives and in one puzzling case played down the size of our ski house- yeah, he was/is kind of messy up there huh?