Author MightyPen Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 As a woman who works in the field of appearances and creating visual impressions I disagree with those who think seeing a scantily-clad or inappropriately-dressed woman affects only those men who allow it to. We know that what a woman, or a man for that matter, wears influences both consciously and subconsciously the people who see them. This is a major consideration for the entire visual aspect of marketing in movies, television, print media and all advertising. Companies spend millions to market and to make certain that the model or actress representing their brand is dressed appropriately to convey the desired message. Newsflash to all who think only perverse men are affected by a female's skimpy attire: it ain't so. Imagine a television commercial for a law office. Do you think any set director would have a female actress in that role wearing leggings or torn jeans? Absolutely not! OP, your office IS a marketing venue whether the employees realize it or not. Kudos to you for recognizing that. In your place I'd talk with the owner about my concerns. Think it through, consult with some people you know who are diplomatic, wise and can advise you on your presentation if you don't have confidence in your ability to do so. You should be able to figure out a way to let Ms. Leggings and Ms. Torn Jeans realize you have their best interests at heart and that this is a matter of professional support and growth for them, not a way to be dictatorial. Damn! I like how you phrase things. Can I hire you? You can write all of my posts for now on?! I'll give you the central thrust of the message and then you could make it more...palatable (less offensive). 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 And the funny thing is, I'm guessing he was probably pretty awesome. Nah. He’s one of those lawyers who just fights everything and thinks that being oppositional and rhetorical means he's a good lawyer. You know the type. Waste of time (and fees). Annoying. Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Wait...are you implying that I am egotistical or did you forget to add the always appreciated "present company excluded, of course?" And yes I realize I shouldn't have used the word "distracting," but in all fairness, a certain style of dress can be distracting in a non-sexual way, and it can be distracting to people besides yours truly. But yes, I should have phrased it as "non-professional"...because it is. If I can rock a suit most days and look pretty damn amazing, I figure others can "up their game" and do the same. I'll wait for the explanation about your "egotistical" statement now. -waits- Good, here it goes. If you decide to work 100 hours a week should they? Or in the famous analogy, if you decide to jump off a bridge should they follow suit? Just because you do it doesn't indicate they should. Sounds pretty egotistical to me. Remember you are FAAAARRRR more senior so the expectations are going to be different. And if you understand the legal and HR side, as you have assured everyone you seem to know oh so well, what is the question at play then? Seems like you have it all handled. Final advice, join a large firm and then you will have the dress code, a very professional setting, and lot and lots of office politics. Or go into corporate law which is by far the best of all legal worlds, in my unsolicited opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
Author MightyPen Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Good, here it goes. If you decide to work 100 hours a week should they? Or in the famous analogy, if you decide to jump off a bridge should they follow suit? Just because you do it doesn't indicate they should. Sounds pretty egotistical to me. Remember you are FAAAARRRR more senior so the expectations are going to be different. And if you understand the legal and HR side, as you have assured everyone you seem to know oh so well, what is the question at play then? Seems like you have it all handled. Final advice, join a large firm and then you will have the dress code, a very professional setting, and lot and lots of office politics. Or go into corporate law which is by far the best of all legal worlds, in my unsolicited opinion. I refer you to my (un)official and (un)paid spokeswoman LivingWaterPlease who will kindly advise you, with more nimble phraseology, that: 1) big firms are evil, 2) I was seeking general "should I make a big deal out of this? advice, and 3) I am still waiting for the "present company excluded" as mentioned above. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Simple answer to your question....no you should not make a big deal out of this. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
USMCHokie Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Because you look at a woman and are seeing her sexually doesn't mean she is creating sexual harassment. You are responsible for your actions. So unless her outfits are so egregious, like a bikini, etc. then the onus is on you. Look it up in your company's handbook, I am sure they have multiple pages going over what actually constitutes sexual harassment and what it needs to entail. Most sexual harassment policies I've seen are stated in the broadest possible sense so that the company has the most room to exercise discretion, i.e., they are not written as an exhaustive laundry list of particular acts that constitute sexual harassment. "...the onus is on you" Quite a dangerous method of assessing sexual harassment... Link to post Share on other sites
USMCHokie Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Wait...are you implying that I am egotistical or did you forget to add the always appreciated "present company excluded, of course?" And yes I realize I shouldn't have used the word "distracting," but in all fairness, a certain style of dress can be distracting in a non-sexual way, and it can be distracting to people besides yours truly. But yes, I should have phrased it as "non-professional"...because it is. If I can rock a suit most days and look pretty damn amazing, I figure others can "up their game" and do the same. I'll wait for the explanation about your "egotistical" statement now. -waits- Question. What do the partners think? If they support the kids wearing whatever they want, then you're done. If they support the kids wearing more professional attire, or they don't care what you do about it, then it's a green light. And I'm glad you clarified that this is more about professionalism and sex. It's a different ballgame. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 If the owner of the firm works in the firm and sees the way everyone dresses and does not have a problem with it..then there is no issue. If you are bothered by it...find a new job. Link to post Share on other sites
Author MightyPen Posted October 23, 2015 Author Share Posted October 23, 2015 Question. What do the partners think? If they support the kids wearing whatever they want, then you're done. If they support the kids wearing more professional attire, or they don't care what you do about it, then it's a green light. And I'm glad you clarified that this is more about professionalism and sex. It's a different ballgame. Eh, he defers to me on most stuff. I could definitely institute whatever kind of change I want, but like I said earlier, I think office chemistry is REALLY important. So although I think the outfits are unprofessional, I still wonder if I should make a stink about it. It's just like with parenting...you have to pick your battles. I like both women. They work hard. Link to post Share on other sites
LuckyLady13 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I think you should make a big deal out of this, depending on who your clients typically are. If you're in the business of defending biker gangs, people who run tattoo shops, mechanics and auto body shops, car and bike customizing shops, blue collar dive bar owners, etc, having people working with or for you wearing leggings and having tattoo's showing only will make your clients feel like they are dealing with "real people". Not just some "stupid suits" or "talking heads". When I was younger, I didn't realize how important my clothes are to people on a subconscious level. When I'm dressed to the nine's (which I like to do during the work week just for kicks sometimes), so many people find it impossible to approach me or talk to me. I hate it! Today, I'm wearing torn jeans (at 42!), a peasant blouse and sneakers with a cardigan. I'm so much more approachable when I dress like this. Anyone and everyone talks to me on days like this! This more casual look drops everyone's guard down and I like to be approachable to people. When I was in my 20's, I had no concept of this stuff because I was too wrapped up in trying to figure out what people expected of me. Now, I don't care what they expect. I'm more concerned with being easily approachable by people who are shy or are intimidated by well dressed people. Strangely, well dressed people approach me more quickly and warmly when I'm dressed the way I am today. In my experience, it really depends on what you're looking for. If you only deal with people who wear suits and power suits and dress well, then you can't really have someone showing their tattoo's and someone running around casually in leggings because it will scare your clients off. They'll see your office as unprofessional. Do you want to be more approachable by everyone? Or no? Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 But this is not about his choice of dress...it's about two women in the office...and quite frankly...it is not any of his business how they dress. I work in an all male environment. If one of them said one word about my clothes I would go directly to the owner of the company. Now if the owner said something about my clothes...I would do as he says or find a new job. This is not rocket science. This is someone's opinion about others he works with. He has brought it to the attention of the office manager who thinks everything is ok. It is opinion. It doesn't affect his job. If he is distracted it is his issue. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Most sexual harassment policies I've seen are stated in the broadest possible sense so that the company has the most room to exercise discretion, i.e., they are not written as an exhaustive laundry list of particular acts that constitute sexual harassment. "...the onus is on you" Quite a dangerous method of assessing sexual harassment... Again, read up and then question me on it. And you misread what I wrote. I in no way indicated each and every possible scenario needs to be written. That is not what I was saying at all. Let's not be obtuse on this please. Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I refer you to my (un)official and (un)paid spokeswoman LivingWaterPlease who will kindly advise you, with more nimble phraseology, that: 1) big firms are evil, 2) I was seeking general "should I make a big deal out of this? advice, and 3) I am still waiting for the "present company excluded" as mentioned above. Hmmmm, I wouldn't hold our breath . . . . Then I offer my previous suggestion of corporate law. Numerous areas that it can cover in the legal department of companies and no billable hours, one (crazy) client, no fighting to be made partner, etc. Far easier route to go in. Should you make a big deal about it? No. Not a hill to die on. Link to post Share on other sites
Eternal Sunshine Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Is your life really boring or something? I generally find that people that obsess over irrelevant details such as this are trying to distract themselves from something bigger... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GunslingerRoland Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 But this is not about his choice of dress...it's about two women in the office...and quite frankly...it is not any of his business how they dress. I work in an all male environment. If one of them said one word about my clothes I would go directly to the owner of the company. Now if the owner said something about my clothes...I would do as he says or find a new job. This is not rocket science. This is someone's opinion about others he works with. He has brought it to the attention of the office manager who thinks everything is ok. It is opinion. It doesn't affect his job. If he is distracted it is his issue. Really? So if your bosses boss, told you, that you were dressing unprofessionally (when you were dressing in clothes that were clearly very casual for work) you would run to the owner? I guess in this situation it is a small company so talking to the owner may be applicable. But most people work for large corporations and owners (if there are private owners) and hardly involved in the minor day to day operations. Can we flip this conversation around? If he had started this thread about two men working at the company, one older man wearing ripped jeans, and the other wearing workout pants, would there even be a single argument that he wasn't in the right? At some point in recent years, I think women seem to think they have the god given right to wear whatever they want in whatever situation, and if they can't, then it's sexist. Even though men don't have that same expectation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Really? So if your bosses boss, told you, that you were dressing unprofessionally (when you were dressing in clothes that were clearly very casual for work) you would run to the owner? I guess in this situation it is a small company so talking to the owner may be applicable. But most people work for large corporations and owners (if there are private owners) and hardly involved in the minor day to day operations. Can we flip this conversation around? If he had started this thread about two men working at the company, one older man wearing ripped jeans, and the other wearing workout pants, would there even be a single argument that he wasn't in the right? At some point in recent years, I think women seem to think they have the god given right to wear whatever they want in whatever situation, and if they can't, then it's sexist. Even though men don't have that same expectation. I don't have a bosses boss....i have the owner. The owner has been known to tell a guy to shave his facial hair...hide his tatoo....etc. I always dress professional...so it was just an example. and if you flipped this around...my opinion would still be the same. If he went to the office manager...and they said that the way others were dressed is ok.... MALE OR FEMALE....then the op needs to concentrate on something that matters and not the way the others are dressed. See to me...the bottom line is this...he is offended by the way others are dressed. He took the complaint to the office manager who dismissed it. Conversation over. No complaint no case ....nice stimulating topic to discuss with your wife over dinner. Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 But this is not about his choice of dress...it's about two women in the office...and quite frankly...it is not any of his business how they dress. If he is in charge, then it absolutely IS his business... TFY Link to post Share on other sites
LivingWaterPlease Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I refer you to my (un)official and (un)paid spokeswoman LivingWaterPlease who will kindly advise you, with more nimble phraseology, that: 1) big firms are evil, 2) I was seeking general "should I make a big deal out of this? advice, and 3) I am still waiting for the "present company excluded" as mentioned above. Just had a good laugh over this.... Nice to hear kind words!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Really? So if your bosses boss, told you, that you were dressing unprofessionally (when you were dressing in clothes that were clearly very casual for work) you would run to the owner? I guess in this situation it is a small company so talking to the owner may be applicable. But most people work for large corporations and owners (if there are private owners) and hardly involved in the minor day to day operations. Can we flip this conversation around? If he had started this thread about two men working at the company, one older man wearing ripped jeans, and the other wearing workout pants, would there even be a single argument that he wasn't in the right? At some point in recent years, I think women seem to think they have the god given right to wear whatever they want in whatever situation, and if they can't, then it's sexist. Even though men don't have that same expectation. No, my advice would still stand because he was saying how they are provocative and distracting so then I would question him why he is seeing his male coworkers in a sexual manner and how that is his issue. Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 If he is in charge, then it absolutely IS his business... TFY Except he isn't in charge. He is an associate attorney and these are others in the same work area. So while he may be a higher level they don't report to him, they report to the owner. So, having worked in a law offices, I report to one attorney so even if there are other attorneys in the office I don't report to them and they are not "in charge" of me. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Except he isn't in charge. He is an associate attorney and these are others in the same work area. So while he may be a higher level they don't report to him, they report to the owner. So, having worked in a law offices, I report to one attorney so even if there are other attorneys in the office I don't report to them and they are not "in charge" of me. OK...Fair enough... I didnt really read the whole thing carefully....For some reason, I guess I thought he was a partner.... But yes, in that case its not his fish to fry... TFY Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 If I can rock a suit most days and look pretty damn amazing, I figure others can "up their game" and do the same. I'll wait for the explanation about your "egotistical" statement now. -waits- I'm curious....how much does the 20 year old earn compared to you? Regardless, if the business owners AND the HR person all think what they are wearing is fine/not a problem, then you really should busy yourself with other issues. It's a bit controlling to be concerning yourself with the attire of women in your office if the actual management has no issue with their attire. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
newmoon Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 you could be a closet fashionista, because a man spending this much time contemplating female outfits... something's bizarro here Link to post Share on other sites
Author MightyPen Posted October 24, 2015 Author Share Posted October 24, 2015 you could be a closet fashionista, because a man spending this much time contemplating female outfits... something's bizarro here I'm a "fashionista" because my eyes work and I notice leggings and torn jeans in an office setting? That's truly a bizarre statement. Thanks to the people who also saw the issue. Also thanks to the folks who disagreed but did so in a thoughtful manner. I think I'll let it go for now but I'll preach office professionalism in general terms at every opportunity. Maybe something will click with them voluntarily. Link to post Share on other sites
MsHopeful0208201689 Posted October 24, 2015 Share Posted October 24, 2015 How does a man in a professional (yet relatively small) office environment handle this? The quick and dirty... 1) I am NOT the office manager. I have spoken with the office manager. She doesn't see much of an issue. She's far too casual for my taste. 2) Woman A is 20 years old, extremely smart and extremely attractive. She wears tights (no skirt) in a professional environment and I don't feel it's appropriate. She does have a great body and on some level I don't mind, but objectively speaking it's just not appropriate. 3) Woman B is 45ish and wears torn jeans and blouses that show off her many tattoos. I am not anti-tattoo at all, but some of our clients are conservative, and really it's more an issue of her torn jeans. They don't give a professional vibe at all. I mention her age because I think she should know better. 4) I am one of only two men in the office. I wear a suit or else I wear business casual. The other women wear business casual attire. All this being said, no clients have actually complained (to my knowledge) and the office manager said no one else had complained to her. Should I let this drop? Drop it. If management doesn't have a problem with it, then whats the issue? I understand it may be a distraction for you but learn to let it NOT be a distraction.. Don't pay attention. We are not responsible how someone else acts or dresses (in this case) yet we are responsible for our actions and what we will and won't let bother us. Good luck! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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