Forgiveness

[AlwaysGrowing]

Of course. And I don't think it is wrong for a WS to want forgiveness to be an end goal in R. In fact I am one of those crazy people that believe WS can have boundaries on how they are treated and leave failed R. Crazy. But true.

 

And yeah, I'm getting that some people, even years past infidelity, will hold themselves over their WS to punish them because to forgive is something they do not want to go. And their ws stays and so they both make their choices (maybe not healthy ones). But I'm not getting the idea that the OP feels that way. I mean, he even feels forgiving the AP is important to his wellbeing.

 

 

I fail to see how my not forgiving means I am bring punitive.

 

My forgiveness is mine and mine alone. Whether or not I give it, should not be the end game for the other party. Their absolution has to come from within. They have to be at peace within themselves that THEY have taken the necessary steps to make amends/changes/work to themselves.

 

For myself, once we focus our focus internally....we can build a place where we can find peace, acceptance, self respect, integrity, companionship, love, happiness and safety. We no longer require others to give that to us...we already possess it ourselves. We create it. We no longer need external validation...we already know that we have a good soul.

[autumnnight]

As a BS, I would resent anyone trying to put a timetable and parameters on MY forgiveness, especially someone who wasn't even part of the A situation.

 

As a WS, if I had worked hard, was humble and transparent, and after several years my BS still did not forgive, I would leave with a clear conscience.

[AlwaysGrowing]

i don't know why people take offense to this.

 

like... when i was cheated on, betrayed, hurt... when i was in that state of pain + going through it... hell yeah, i was angry, mad, bitter & resentful. i was all of that. what else was i supposed to be?

 

nothing wrong with being angry, bitter and resentful when you're hurt and going through the process of surviving. like, that is what you SHOULD be feeling.

 

 

I was referencing not forgiving meaning that one MUST be bitter, angry..etc.

[katielee]

I fail to see how my not forgiving means I am bring punitive.

 

My forgiveness is mine and mine alone. Whether or not I give it, should not be the end game for the other party. Their absolution has to come from within. They have to be at peace within themselves that THEY have taken the necessary steps to make amends/changes/work to themselves.

 

 

Exactly how I feel. And the last two sentences especially as a former wayward. It's more important that I become a safe partner for him than for him to forgive me, IMO.

[Confused48]

not at all. you CAN forgive & STILL want that person to be held accountable & take responsibility. however, forgiveness comes AFTER the person is punished & takes responsibility so it seems as if forgiveness is the absence of wanting to punish those who did you wrong.

 

I don't understand the above. It sounds inconsistent. Could you explain?

 

the OP wants justice because she feels it's necessary for her to forgive.

 

No, I don't think even full justice would make me feel any better. One poster put it best, said something to the effect, "The AP can't unf*ck my WS." So maybe it is just that no matter the punishment it is not going to be justice.

 

I think it is just my nature to want justice. It comes out all the time. Like if I do something wrong, my first thought is not about apologizing but about how can I make it up to the harmed person. If you know the 5 love languages there is something similar for forgiveness. My forgiveness language is justice.

 

That all being said though brings us back to the original post of this thread. If I am still seeking justice, I'm not going to be at peace. I don't think.

 

 

I agree, for some people they can only forgive after a price is paid.

 

The OP does want justice... However, they know it probably will never happen and wants to move on.

 

Yes. Easier said than done though.

 

When it comes down to it, the only people we control is us. And the only recovery we have any say in is our own. I just think it is out of place for another person (and yes, esp a WS) to tell a BS they do not even know what they should feel, what they should do, and how they should define words.

 

I think it goes too far to say, "esp a WS." I can see not telling others what they should be feeling (Like Drifter did in his one post about what "men" would do and how if I were a man etc.) I did not see WS doing that on this thread and even if they did why single them out.

 

As for word definitions, it is a constant problem on LS. I agree with Noirek about that. People should feel free to define words as they see fit but realize if you are speaking English as a first language most will assume you are using Webster as at least a starting point. It would be anarchy if it were otherwise. I'm not opposed to verbal anarchy, lol. It just makes it difficult to have a conversation.

 

 

Maybe this is true. But not only has the OP thanked me for my posts he has encouraged me as well to continue posting. So who should I listen to?

 

Thank you again!

[autumnnight]

It's more important that I become a safe partner for him than for him to forgive me, IMO.

 

THIS is a very important point. If I am wayward, then the drum I need to be beating is making my partner feel safe, not demanding to be forgiven.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Exactly how I feel. And the last two sentences especially as a former wayward. It's more important that I become a safe partner for him than for him to forgive me, IMO.

 

Just to expand on this a bit....to become a safe person for yourself first and foremost. Everyone else in your life will automatically benefit.

[nightmare01]

I really struggle with this with respect to the affair in my life. It makes sense to me that if I could forgive, I myself would feel better. I don't. I want justice especially, for the MAP. I can't help it. I doubt I will get anything close to justice so I suffer, wanting what I will never have.

 

I heard a news story about the family members of people killed at that church in South Carolina. Some of them say they forgive the racist shooter. Then I heard one of them interviewed saying, "Forgiveness is not ignoring the facts. I still want justice."

 

So my question is, is there some kind of forgiveness I don't understand where you get the benefits of both forgiveness and justice? Seems like you have to pick one or the other.

 

The affair is part of your past, and the past you have with your WS. That will never go away, and I doubt you will ever forget it. It's there - it was a life altering event for the BS. It changes your outlook on life, on relationships, and on people in general.

 

For a WS to be forgiven, the first thing is that they have to be forgivable. Remember you are forgiving the person, not the affair... IMO an affair itself is unforgivable, but people can be redeemed. But to be forgivable the WS has to do ALL THAT IT TAKES to help heal the relationship. They have to tell the complete truth. Be open with all communications. Keep an open line of communication with their BS. They have to actually feel remorse and act on it.

 

It's a tough road for the WS - but if they want to save their relationship with their BS it's one they will have to walk.

 

For a BS the term "forgiveness" becomes complicated. Some will bend over backward because they feel they must forgive. IMO they don't have to do that. Some things are unforgivable to them and some people who commit those unforgivable things are unredeemable. That is the choice of the BS.

 

For me, I struggled with this for a very long time. What helped me was to have a plan B in the wings should my WW act out again. I can't completely trust her anymore, so I need an out, an escape plan should she cheat again. I don't think she will, but I used to think that before she cheated. So once I had my plan B set up, I saw a future for myself without my WW and it was a good one. Not as good as it could be with her, but if she cheated again I knew I would be OK. Just that opened things up for me, and I stay with her out of choice rather than out of fear of having no where to go.

 

That helped me. But YMMV.

[Confused48]

Thank you 01. All good.

 

In a way, I'm glad this happened. I've been a bit obtuse about how dangerous to me other people can be for my whole life. Maybe I needed this wake up call to remind me that I should trust no one and never. I know I needed this to show me what WS was capable of. I was completely in the dark about that.

 

Hard lesson. Learned. I hope.

 

I do have grave doubts about the remorse of WS. Most everyone agrees that is a problem for forgiveness. Regardless of my ability to forgive. Which is a whole other subject.

 

I see you had a problem forgiving your WS. What about the AP? Are you in the camp of the AP is irrelevant? The AP did not owe you anything?

[Sammyjo403]

I am working on forgiveness. I'm finding it next to impossible. Lol. Seems like I take one step forward and 3 back. Every time I think I might have it under control.....I realize I don't.

 

I do however believe that I have made many steps towards acceptance. This has helped SOO much. But forgive....no. Forget??? NEVER!!!!

[nightmare01]

Thank you 01. All good.

 

In a way, I'm glad this happened. I've been a bit obtuse about how dangerous to me other people can be for my whole life. Maybe I needed this wake up call to remind me that I should trust no one and never. I know I needed this to show me what WS was capable of. I was completely in the dark about that.

 

Hard lesson. Learned. I hope.

 

I do have grave doubts about the remorse of WS. Most everyone agrees that is a problem for forgiveness. Regardless of my ability to forgive. Which is a whole other subject.

 

I see you had a problem forgiving your WS. What about the AP? Are you in the camp of the AP is irrelevant? The AP did not owe you anything?

 

I think the only way to come close to being ok and maybe forgiving is to be ok with yourself. You have to become strong, and know that you'll be ok no matter what your WS does. If you stay together, having them around would be nice - it could be what you want - but at the same time you need to be aware and watch what they do and be prepared to pull the plug should they cheat again.

 

Our WS can't heal us. They can help heal the relationship, but they can't heal US. Only we can do that.

 

For me it worked to start to see myself as a separate person. Not a person relayed on the marriage as a way to define himself. I developed new hobbies, renewed old interests, and became my own person. The only way I could stay with my WW was to see that I would be ok without her.. that I didn't need her to validate myself or need her to be happy.

 

If your WS does not feel remorse then IMO it's likely they'll act out again. Maybe not - but no remorse is a red flag for me.

[merrmeade]

But at some point the work on forgiveness for the affair(s) becomes work on the little things that allowed the affair. From LS, I've learned that some WSs got out of their affairs because they didn't like what they'd become. They were disgusted with the lying and the adultery. But with others, the affair served to highlight their general slipperiness. I don't see how anyone—BS or WS—gets around this. Lying, hiding things from people when it makes things easier, etc., for me, are grossly disrespectful. I can't do it. But it doesn't phase WH to lie to a client or family member if it's easier for some reason. So what about forgiving this behavior that allowed the affair to happen?

Edited July 14, 2015 by merrmeade

[velvette]

But at some point the work on forgiveness for the affair(s) becomes work on the little things that allowed the affair. From LS, I've learned that some WSs got out of their affairs because they didn't like what they'd become. They were disgusted with the lying and the adultery. But with others, the affair served to highlight their general slipperiness. I don't see how anyone—BS or WS—gets around this. Lying, hiding things from people when it makes things easier, etc., for me, are grossly disrespectful. I can't do it. But it doesn't phase WH to lie to a client or family member if it's easier for some reason. So what about forgiving this behavior that allowed the affair to happen?

 

 

To me, one of the upsides to reconciliation is that you both get a do over of sorts to reinvent yourselves and your marriage.

 

 

That includes requesting that the other change bad behavior as a condition for the marriage continuing.

 

 

But, both have to realize that is a process and old habits can take time and support from the other partner to change.

 

 

I don't think of it as forgiving the past bad behavior as much as letting the past go and starting new to build healthy habits in each person and the marriage. Although, if you have colluded with the behavior by not confronting it in the past, you may need to forgive yourself for not standing up for yourself sooner in order to be supportive of a spouse who is trying to change.

[merrmeade]

To me, one of the upsides to reconciliation is that you both get a do over of sorts to reinvent yourselves and your marriage.

 

 

That includes requesting that the other change bad behavior as a condition for the marriage continuing.

 

 

But, both have to realize that is a process and old habits can take time and support from the other partner to change.

 

 

I don't think of it as forgiving the past bad behavior as much as letting the past go and starting new to build healthy habits in each person and the marriage. Although, if you have colluded with the behavior by not confronting it in the past, you may need to forgive yourself for not standing up for yourself sooner in order to be supportive of a spouse who is trying to change.

Yes, I agree with this. Nicely presented, velvette.

 

And also agree it's a reconciliation, marriage building thing in general. Obviously I let this aspect of our relationship slip before which was unfair to both of us. That is, my awareness of his "slippery" values. And the thing in me that does that is also what allowed the affair(s) to happen. Dealing with that is exactly what relationship is. I have to find a way to let him know how I feel about it that's constructive and doesn't come across as criticism that makes him and his tendencies go underground.

 

I was shocked as recently as last night when he enthusiastically helped me with a solution to do something that we both know our son's in-laws might criticize. His suggestion was to make up a story. I didn't answer or react to this. Both lifelong patterns. The real forgiveness is valuing my sensibilities enough to let him know in a way that's not crushing but opens the door to change. The next step is personal. If he takes the opportunity and works on alternatives, good for him. If he doesn't, I will still hold my ground without needing to punish him for his difference. Something like that. Got it.

[merrmeade]

That includes requesting that the other change bad behavior as a condition for the marriage continuing. But, both have to realize that is a process and old habits can take time and support from the other partner to change.

This ^^^^ is not so easy.

 

Maybe forgiving can't happen without valuing yourself enough to do this work — ALL of it.

[velvette]

This ^^^^ is not so easy.

 

Maybe forgiving can't happen without valuing yourself enough to do this work — ALL of it.

 

 

Possibly.

 

 

The straightest path to getting what you want is clearly identifying what you want and then asking for/negotiating for it. Also, knowing and being clear with your partner about things that are unacceptable to you.

 

 

Have you and your H ever had a conversation about what you would like your marriage to look like if you could have things exactly the way you want them? That might be a place to start.

[badkarma2013]

This ^^^^ is not so easy.

 

Maybe forgiving can't happen without valuing yourself enough to do this work — ALL of it.

 

 

 

All here remember this "Never confuse Forgiveness with Reconciliation ..For the are NOT the same thing..."....Badkarma2013