Forgiveness

[Confused48]

Sammy,

 

Maybe you can't forgive. Maybe I can't forgive the AP. Maybe I can't forgive my WS. Not sure. But nobody can forgive? Seriously? You really think that way?

 

It is hard to believe that anyone would think that nobody can forgive. That all forgiveness is fake or delusional. It is just a ludicrous proposition that you are proposing. I am certain that others have forgiven far worse things than affairs. Not saying you or I can but I am certain that others can and do.

[autumnnight]

Which isn't logical because what would there be to forgive if the action was okay and the hurt not justified?

 

If someone slaps me in the face in anger and later apologizes. My forgiving them doesn't mean I think slapping people is okay nor does it hurt less. It just means I will no longer hold it against them.

 

I think a lot of people have made forgiveness unattainable by their own definition. Something that could never be reached no matter the process or what have you. And if that is what they believe forgiveness is. Saying horrible actions are okay, no wonder they don't want anything to do with it.

 

Pain is rarely logical.

 

I think some people have a very strong....what I would call sense of justice or vindication (which is not the same as vindictive). They NEED to see that the person who inflicted the pain feels some as well. They NEED to see remorse. I admit to being somewhat like that. I need to know the other person actually cares what they did.

 

Now imagine having that mindset and then the person you love the most pulls your life out from under you. You have all this horrible pain a sense of betrayal. They may feel bad too, but they got to have an exciting roll in the hay....all you got was the pain of their actions.

 

I think there is a sense that if I forgive them, I have absolved them.

 

I can make the internal distinction for myself mostly due to my religious upbringing. I was taught that God forgives, but that the forgiveness cost Him something. That forgiveness doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

 

I think making that distinction in the midst of terrible pain is very hard. And then when the person who hurt you is the one urging you to "get over it and forgive," that is like adding insult to injury.

 

I believe in forgiveness. I also believe that everyone's journey is their own, and if I cannot help them, the least I can do is not judge them.

[katielee]

 

I think there is a sense that if I forgive them, I have absolved them.

 

 

this is me. But I certainly don't want revenge, him to suffer, throw it in his face or anything like that. So someone else can slap their own definition on me and say I forgave. I don't care. We all have the right to define things for ourselves.

 

I'm glad for your post Autumnnight! I appreciate folks not judging others on how they move forward healing from the pain and trauma that betrayal brings.

[autumnnight]

this is me. But I certainly don't want revenge, him to suffer, throw it in his face or anything like that. So someone else can slap their own definition on me and say I forgave. I don't care. We all have the right to define things for ourselves.

 

I'm glad for your post Autumnnight! I appreciate folks not judging others on how they move forward healing from the pain and trauma that betrayal brings.

 

I've had to learn a bunch of things the hard way...and some of them are still hard. I'm a hard headed bitty sometimes. One of the things I am working on in counseling is to let go of a very particular "I want them to suffer!!" issue right now, so it's easy to relate.

[Noirek]

Not to mention as I said npd people also do not do forgiveness. And as ludicerous as it is to believe wheb you believe in the saints and sinners mindset there are People with strong NPD traits that are cheated on (and they are often the most surprised themselves).

 

I think we can just establish some people make up their own definitions to suit their needs. You see it all the time in lots of areas. There is no reasoning or even discussing with that. Because you cannot even establish what forgiveness is to them. Because they just make up some sort of undefinable meaning. So then to carry on to the need or lack of need to forgive you are not going to be able to discuss anything.

 

So, if forgive means saying the actions were okay... No, OP nor any BS or WS should have offer it or seek it. Because it is never okay. Sometimes it isn't even understandable (understanding our twisted minds is crazy making). If confused was wanting that I would not encourage him to continue on his path of wanting that sort of weird forgiveness. But if it if standing with the dictionary definition, i see why he thinks of it as a very important part of his reconciliation.

 

As far as the AP goes. I would never really fret about that (harder if we were talking a double betrayal especially within in family where they can't be out of your life)

 

My husband was previously betrayed by a girlfriend. She stepped from him to his friend and room mate... Only it overlapped. He actually only recently knew forgiven them. He describes that moment as the proverbial weight lifting off. He never even felt the need to do so. But when it did come up he didnt like the strong emotions it evoked. Now they are gone. He can see them and interact with them without pain. It took ten years.

 

I don't know how long it has been for you confused. I would work on not focusing on the AP. I know you said they are still inserting themselves so that makes it harder. But you could always try pity. Sometimes that takes the sting out. It may seem superior to some but it is true. If it has been a good while since the A, it is pitiful they are still coming around.

[Noirek]

this is me. But I certainly don't want revenge, him to suffer, throw it in his face or anything like that. So someone else can slap their own definition on me and say I forgave. I don't care. We all have the right to define things for ourselves.

 

I'm glad for your post Autumnnight! I appreciate folks not judging others on how they move forward healing from the pain and trauma that betrayal brings.

 

You are very determined in all your posts about your rights. I think perhaps that is what autumn was describing in personality type. Your rights are important to you. And infidelity breeches those rights. Forgiving that would mean letting go of your rights in your mind. Maybe. Or maybe you irl give ip your rights far too much and expressing yourself is the only time you get to mention them.

[ladydesigner]

You know the strangest thing in all of this is that I have forgiven the MOW before my WH. I felt like she was deceived just as badly as I was.

[katielee]

You are very determined in all your posts about your rights. I think perhaps that is what autumn was describing in personality type. Your rights are important to you. And infidelity breeches those rights. Forgiving that would mean letting go of your rights in your mind. Maybe. Or maybe you irl give ip your rights far too much and expressing yourself is the only time you get to mention them.

 

I think most ppl here are determined about this.

It's not that I haven't forgiven- I forgave him for his first affair. That involved understanding and empathy. But i haven't forgiven 2nd yet. So be it.

[Noirek]

You know the strangest thing in all of this is that I have forgiven the MOW before my WH. I felt like she was deceived just as badly as I was.

 

you aren't with your WH though?

[casey.lives]

forgiveness is not one-sided and not necessary... just close that chapter

[Noirek]

I think most ppl here are determined about this.

It's not that I haven't forgiven- I forgave him for his first affair. That involved understanding and empathy. But i haven't forgiven 2nd yet. So be it.

 

But the first one didn't probably encroach on your rights. Because on some level you may have felt, even though it was wrong, you deserved it. And forgiving something you feel you deserved is a lot easier than forgiving something that you know for a fact you didn't deserve (i don't think you deserved either.)

[sammy7111]

I'm sorry but deep down you can not total forgive your can leave with it but there's never a total forgiving.

[autumnnight]

I'm sorry but deep down you can not total forgive your can leave with it but there's never a total forgiving.

 

Maybe YOU can't. I can. Stop speaking for everyone.

[autumnnight]

Not to mention as I said npd people also do not do forgiveness. And as ludicerous as it is to believe wheb you believe in the saints and sinners mindset there are People with strong NPD traits that are cheated on (and they are often the most surprised themselves).

 

I gotta say, the obvious passive implication in this statement really bothers me.

[merrmeade]

So don't know if this post will survive but then I don't understand the rules vs avoiding the auto censor, but it seems there's enough support for every view that's been supported. I wanted to 'get literal' as some suggest and see what it actually DOES mean. So here goes:

 

FORGIVENESS

– merriam-webster online:

• stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake. t
  
• stop blaming (someone)
  
• stop feeling anger about (something)
  
• cancel (a debt).

– wikipedia on forgiveness:

• ... the intentional and voluntary process by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an increased ability to wish the offender well.
  
• ... different from condoning (failing to see the action as wrong and in need of forgiveness), excusing (not holding the offender as responsible for the action), pardoning (granted by a representative of society, such as a judge), forgetting (removing awareness of the offense from consciousness), and reconciliation (restoration of a relationship)

same article - by religion:

• Judaism: "... if a person causes harm, but then sincerely and honestly apologizes to the wronged individual and tries to rectify the wrong, the wronged individual is religiously required to grant forgiveness"
  
• Christianity: "Forgiveness is not an option to a Christian, rather one must Forgive to be a Christian."
  
• Islam: "... whenever possible, it is better to forgive another believer of Islam. ...
  
• Buddhism: ".. to prevent harmful thoughts from causing havoc on one’s mental well-being."
  
• Hinduism: "Forgiveness in Hinduism does not necessarily require ... reconciliation... Instead forgiveness in Hindu philosophy is being compassionate, tender, kind and letting go of the harm or hurt caused by someone or something else. Forgiveness is essential for one to free oneself from negative thoughts, and being able to focus on blissfully living a moral and ethical life... In the highest self-realized state, forgiveness becomes essence of one’s personality, where the persecuted person remains unaffected, without agitation, without feeling like a victim, free from anger..."

– popular literature (New Yorker):

• random tidbits: The scientific literature on forgiveness only dates back to 1989 ... / Cats never forgive. / Humans are less likely to forgive public figures than loved ones. / Also, it's harder to believe public figures' apologies / No offense is unforgivable. / Generally speaking religious people are more forgiving. / The Amish are very forgiving.
  
• heavier treatments:

– But betrayal does work a little differently. According to a study from 2010, the most common type of unforgiven offense is betrayal, including affairs, deceit, broken promises, and broken secrets.

– ... different kinds of forgiveness. Decisional - largely external. Emotional - internal change ... comes easier to younger children and they learn early.

– Extroverts are kind of needy about forgiveness. ... Introverts tend to be initially more concerned with forgiving themselves than making amends with the person they’ve offended.

– For a healthier heart, be more forgiving.

– Sometimes forgiveness can backfire. ... forgiveness may keep the offending people from changing their bad behavior.

– The perfect model of forgiveness is a 20-step process. Robert Enright, author of The Power of Forgiveness, says it can be summarized in five:

1. Admit you’ve been treated unjustly.
   
   
2. Respond with anger.
   
   
3. Work on seeing the person who harmed you as not solely defined by this offense.
   
   
4. Come to understand that the pain may not ever dissipate completely.
   
   
5. Find meaning in your suffering, perhaps by helping others.

– medical professionals - Mayo Clinic:

"... a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, more positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you.

 

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life."

Edited July 11, 2015 by merrmeade

[sammy7111]

The truth is the truth if your spouse chests own you are you ever going to look at them the same again. No you can't because it's there it happen and there's nothing you can do to change it. You can live with it and you can even learn to love them again but you can never truly trust them again and if you can't truly trust them then you haven't forgave them.

[autumnnight]

The truth is the truth if your spouse chests own you are you ever going to look at them the same again. No you can't because it's there it happen and there's nothing you can do to change it. You can live with it and you can even learn to love them again but you can never truly trust them again and if you can't truly trust them then you haven't forgave them.

 

Please speak for yourself. Please.

[merrmeade]

So all that research (above)? I agree that if we're going to talk about it, we should mean the same thing. It seems that most religions and definitions assume kind of what noirek was saying. You let it go intentionally, consciously because it's negative and unhealthy for everybody (sort of).

 

The breakdown in the book by Robert Enright is interesting : (1) Admit you’ve been treated unjustly. (2) Respond with anger. (3) Work on seeing the person who harmed you as not solely defined by this offense. (4) Come to understand that the pain may not ever dissipate completely. (5) Find meaning in your suffering, perhaps by helping others. - especially #2. Like that one.

 

The New Yorker article cited one study that named betrayal as the most unforgiven offense, and that " forgiveness can backfire" because it "may keep the offending people from changing their bad behavior."

 

Also found the Hindu attitude the most compelling: whether you do or don't reconcile is less important than being a liberated, enlightened being, who, by definition, is forgiving, tolerant and unaffected.

[Noirek]

I gotta say, the obvious passive implication in this statement really bothers me.

 

Everybody has NDP traits. Some more than others and some enough to be diagnosable. NDP is thrown around like a bad word but it is actually a mental illness that has support groups and some people have learned to manage. Treating it as an insult helps no one. I don't know anyone here personally. I don't know if someone is or doesn't have NPD. But being unable to forgive is listed as a person. I don't think it harms anyone who check themselves out. I know I have... Extensively. By the OPs compassion towards people even those that disagree I highly doubt he comes close to it NPD and I hope he doesnt think I was implying such. Like I said, everyone has npd traits. You, me and the OP.

[sammy7111]

What is npd

[Confused48]

.I would work on not focusing on the AP. I know you said they are still inserting themselves so that makes it harder. But you could always try pity. Sometimes that takes the sting out. It may seem superior to some but it is true. If it has been a good while since the A, it is pitiful they are still coming around.

 

This is a very helpful idea. Thank you again. My own WS says as much to me. WS says I should think about the AP enduring thoughts of WS with me for so long after Dday while obviously not getting over losing WS.

 

BTW we just spent a great night together. Not sure it is healthy but we both were so into pretending there are no issues in our marriage and let it rip. Jesus god I'm thinking if we can just pretend long enough maybe it will come true.

[Confused48]

Sammy. Seriously. Wtf. Maybe you can't forgive. Maybe I can't forgive. But nobody can forgive? Seriously? You really think that way?

[drifter777]

So she thinks you should feel sorry for OM because she broke his heart when she quit screwing him? This might be the very definition of NPD. Really, if this is how she thinks you should try to end your marriage. You can't hold your breath forever hoping a miracle happens that cannot happen because she's not even sorry.

[Noirek]

This is a very helpful idea. Thank you again. My own WS says as much to me. WS says I should think about the AP enduring thoughts of WS with me for so long after Dday while obviously not getting over losing WS.

 

BTW we just spent a great night together. Not sure it is healthy but we both were so into pretending there are no issues in our marriage and let it rip. Jesus god I'm thinking if we can just pretend long enough maybe it will come true.

 

Well, some do the fake it until you make it way. That is where I feel I'm at. Not about my feelings about my husband but about me.

 

If it isn't tmi, what exactly has the AP done to show they are still not over your WS?

[Confused48]

So she thinks you should feel sorry for OM because she broke his heart when she quit screwing him? This might be the very definition of NPD. Really, if this is how she thinks you should try to end your marriage. You can't hold your breath forever hoping a miracle happens that cannot happen because she's not even sorry.

 

Drifter, you won. Your wife had another man try to take her away and he lost. He failed. You got your wife back and have kept her now for decades. That man might still be fantasizing about how his life would be different if only you had not won. If that does not bring you some measure of comfort then you are a stone.