Forgiveness

[Noirek]

This is getting silly. People will define forgiveness however it feel right to them. These labels we use to represent emotions are not meant to be so strictly interpreted. The best example of all? What is love? Do you care one bit about how the dictionary defines love? Forgiveness, happiness, love - these things are defined by each individual person.

 

Nobody takes the definition of love and turns it into something completely different except those who do it for their own selfish gain. I think we should add faithfullness to this dictionary changing thing. That one will go over well.

[autumnnight]

Nobody takes the definition of love and turns it into something completely different except those who do it for their own selfish gain. I think we should add faithfullness to this dictionary changing thing. That one will go over well.

 

So this is what a compassionate, forgiving person would say to a forum full of hurting BS'?

[Noirek]

So this is what a compassionate, forgiving person would say to a forum full of hurting BS'?

 

Probably on par with what you say on the revenge thread. It is the same logic drifter is using to defend his non defined yet forgivness that one could use for any word. And I believe he is decades past the deed.

 

I am not a perfect person. Sometimes my buttons get pushed. That comment probably too far. Do yours ever? Do you think perhaps (revenge thread) you say things that would be hard for a forum full of hurting BS? Sometimes I do lack compassion. But that has nothing to do with forgiving.

[Confused48]

I think what is offensive is that you or your WS allow any reaching out to continue. How is this happenning? Email? Text? Voice? Why isnt this completely shut down?

 

See below. If the AP is breathing and wants to make contact, the AP will. No point in trying to shut it down. You can make it difficult but that is all you can do. You can not shut it down. You are delusional if you think you can shut down an addiction from the outside.

 

I am not sure why you feel your spouse still has feelings. If they do, they would respond. More so for females. There is always a way to break NC. There are always methods to get around surveillance if a person wants it enough. If there were any feelings I would say your spouse has pretty good control of them or they are minimal. I am not overly curious on the continued contact. If you want to get ahold of a person, you can. And it has never been easier in this day or age.

[autumnnight]

Probably on par with what you say on the revenge thread. It is the same logic drifter is using to defend his non defined yet forgivness that one could use for any word. And I believe he is decades past the deed.

 

I am not a perfect person. Sometimes my buttons get pushed. That comment probably too far. Do yours ever? Do you think perhaps (revenge thread) you say things that would be hard for a forum full of hurting BS? Sometimes I do lack compassion. But that has nothing to do with forgiving.

 

You're right. Since I've probably gone too far at times, it is okay for you to do so.

 

My bad.

 

My buttons get pushed too. When I am called on it, I try to apologize. Because no matter who pushed them, they are my buttons, and I am still responsible for how I react.

 

I feel junk from all sides for some reason lately. I know I am not perfect, so people who eschew redemption and want to stick it to sinners make me sad. I know what it feels to be betrayed by someone you love completely, so that is a trigger. And then no matter how much I pour out my heart sincerely, something I say is wrong and unChristian and on and on.

 

It's probably best for me to just go for awhile, since that will likely happen soon anyway.

[Noirek]

See below. If the AP is breathing and wants to make contact, the AP will. No point in trying to shut it down. You can make it difficult but that is all you can do. You can not shut it down. You are delusional if you think you can shut down an addiction from the outside.

 

I remember reading a long time ago about an AP who contacted once a year. And they did so despite legal actions and blocked numbers. So the couple just gave up. At first it picked the scab off the fresh wound. But they hashed it out and worked through it and eventually it brought them together. And became just something they shared a shrug and eye roll over. And moved on.

[drifter777]

See below. If the AP is breathing and wants to make contact, the AP will. No point in trying to shut it down. You can make it difficult but that is all you can do. You can not shut it down. You are delusional if you think you can shut down an addiction from the outside.

Right - you will drive yourself crazy trying to control someone else's addiction. If he wants to contact her he will find a way. Maybe she can't stop him but if she maintains strict NC he will get discouraged and move on. If she keeps feeling sorry for him - as you describe - I wonder if she is able to just shut him off. I think she might have to be disgusted with what she did and see any contact with him as a horrible reminder of her A. I think shame and disgust for him needs to replace the "oh, the poor man" emotions she seems to be feeling now.

[66Charger]

See below. If the AP is breathing and wants to make contact, the AP will. No point in trying to shut it down. You can make it difficult but that is all you can do. You can not shut it down. You are delusional if you think you can shut down an addiction from the outside.

 

I do agree, but it is not within my character to lay down and do nothing. Block, change numbers, punch him in the face, something. However I assume you know your spouse and you both are doing the best you can, so I will wish you well

[AlwaysGrowing]

So if forgiveness is when you graciously allow someone to become your equal again and no longer hold their past actions against them. What does not forgiving someone who is in your life look like? If you do not resent them for their actions. For you forgiveness is held only with an apology and reconciliation. Wrongs being righted. Respect being restored. I get that. So that is definetly the type of forgiveness that could not be missing in people staying married. Because what sort of marriage would it be without respect and with one spouse forever over the other.

 

one may expand on a word and still hold the meaning in tact. But while doing so there is always what the opposite looks like. And so, how could you not resent someone you live with and see everyday who you think of with little to no respect. Normal during the process but surely not something to be condoned or encouraged in the long wrong.

 

Personally...for those that earned my forgiveness...it is a process. It didn't happen in a single moment..it grew....from acceptance.

 

Others...were put into acceptance without me ever giving them an opportunity for forgiveness because the damage was too great...and I simply didn't care enough about them to invest any more of myself.

 

All because I might not respect someone in one regard does not mean that I am disrespectful to them.

 

There are folks like me...that just need more options than the catch all, one size fits all forgiveness. We hold forgiveness in such a high regard that to hand it out like Halloween candy..cheapens it, for us.

 

I am okay with others only needing forgiveness for their process. Not bothered one bit by it. It works for them...that is all that matters.

 

I just don't like others attaching labels (bitter, angry, resentful), to my process..when it is one they themselves don't use.

[merrmeade]

I just don't like others attaching labels (bitter, angry, resentful), to my process..when it is one they themselves don't use.

That's the thing that always brought me to my knees, as if someone had slugged me in the solar plexus: Why does someone, who purports to know how deeply I've been hurt, call me NAMES or accuse me of acting out of bitterness and revenge. How does anyone else know what I'm feeling and, even if the guess is right, so the hell what?

[Noirek]

That's the thing that always brought me to my knees, as if someone had slugged me in the solar plexus: Why does someone, who purports to know how deeply I've been hurt, call me NAMES or accuse me of acting out of bitterness and revenge. How does anyone else know what I'm feeling and, even if the guess is right, so the hell what?

 

I'm sorry. I can't find where I called you names or accused you of revenge or bitterness. And as far as bitterness... I've been bitter before. I don't really see it as a dirty word. I see it as a sad state I have been in that I feel sas for others if they find themselves there.

[minimariah]

I just don't like others attaching labels (bitter, angry, resentful), to my process..when it is one they themselves don't use.

 

i don't know why people take offense to this.

 

like... when i was cheated on, betrayed, hurt... when i was in that state of pain + going through it... hell yeah, i was angry, mad, bitter & resentful. i was all of that. what else was i supposed to be?

 

nothing wrong with being angry, bitter and resentful when you're hurt and going through the process of surviving. like, that is what you SHOULD be feeling.

[Noirek]

i don't know why people take offense to this.

 

like... when i was cheated on, betrayed, hurt... when i was in that state of pain + going through it... hell yeah, i was angry, mad, bitter & resentful. i was all of that. what else was i supposed to be?

 

nothing wrong with being angry, bitter and resentful when you're hurt and going through the process of surviving. like, that is what you SHOULD be feeling.

 

No there is nothing wrong with it. But the OP doesn't want to stay there. And isn't the whole point of this topic about moving on from that?

 

It hasn't been answered except by the OP who admitted to it. All this not likeing labels thing aside.

 

How can you live with a person and be married to a person who you cannot and don't want to forgive and yet claim you have no opposite feelings of what to forgive is? And this isn't directed at anyone. Nor people still in a process (because usually if you are working through or in the process you at least are open to the idea of forgiving at some point).

 

I have heard people say they haven't forgiven someone but they don't hold the action against the person. That is an oxy moron.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Noirek

[drifter777]

No there is nothing wrong with it. But the OP doesn't want to stay there. And isn't the whole point of this topic about moving on from that?

 

It hasn't been answered except by the OP who admitted to it. All this not likeing labels thing aside.

 

How can you live with a person and be married to a person who you cannot and don't want to forgive and yet claim you have no opposite feelings of what to forgive is? And this isn't directed at anyone. Nor people still in a process (because usually if you are working through or in the process you at least are open to the idea of forgiving at some point).

 

I have heard people say they haven't forgiven someone but they don't hold the action against the person. That is an oxy moron.

Again you apply your definition of forgiveness to others as if its the only one. Look, this is something you don't understand and never will. You don't want to.

[Noirek]

Again you apply your definition of forgiveness to others as if its the only one. Look, this is something you don't understand and never will. You don't want to.

 

Do you still hold your wife's affair against her? Do you resent her for it?

 

If no then exactly what does it mean to you that you haven't forgiven her. And how does your made up definition in anyway relate to the real one which is to pretty simple to understand (hard to impossible to execute at times).

 

When you say "you will never understand/ you don't want to" instead of answering the question it seems you really mean "i don't have an answer because there isn't one. I believe what I believe because I want to. It doesn't have to make sense or be logical."

[minimariah]

I have heard people say they haven't forgiven someone but they don't hold the action against the person. That is an oxy moron.

 

it isn't. NOT forgiving someone does not mean being bitter, angry and mad. you don't have to forgive in order to achieve peace, contrary to the popular opinion - you need JUSTICE. that's why the A is hard to forgive, because one can never get the satisfaction of justice. and that's what bothers the OP. forgiveness, in itself, is overrated and many times -- not necessary to move on. the only person you gotta forgive is YOU. them other souls are irrelevant.

 

now, you asked this question --

 

How can you live with a person and be married to a person who you cannot and don't want to forgive and yet claim you have no opposite feelings of what to forgive is?

 

i don't know because i don't understand it either. i do understand staying with the plan to leave, so you don't really need to forgive or rebuild anything. in reconciliation and staying, forgiveness IS a must. so like you... i don't get staying married with a plan of reconciliation AND not forgiving. most of the time, people TRY to forgive. it's a process and they try and try over and over again. some make it, many don't.

 

i never stayed in a relationship (romantic or other) if i couldn't forgive. and i really can't forgive. i don't want to forgive and i don't give 2nd chances. there are people who did me wrong - i removed those people from my life in a heartbeat and moved on.

 

i don't walk around with anger and bitterness in my heart. i don't give a sh*t about those people. i feel nothing when i see them or when someone brings them up. it isn't because i FORGAVE, it's because i FORGOT and removed them from my life -- so they aren't a threat anymore.

 

but if they walked up to me and said - did you forgive me, do you forgive me? the answer is no. it means i'm aware of that person doing me wrong and being my enemy, i am aware of the "danger" that comes with that person. i won't ever act friendly with that person or even civil for that matter. i'ma just ignore their existence alltogether. that's what "not forgiving" means to me.

Edited July 12, 2015 by minimariah

[Noirek]

it isn't. NOT forgiving someone does not mean being bitter, angry and mad. you don't have to forgive in order to achieve peace, contrary to the popular opinion - you need JUSTICE. that's why the A is hard to forgive, because one can never get the satisfaction of justice. and that's what bothers the OP. forgiveness, in itself, is overrated and many times -- not necessary to move on. the only person you gotta forgive is YOU. them other souls are irrelevant.

 

now, you asked this question --

 

 

 

i don't know because i don't understand it either. i do understand staying with the plan to leave, so you don't really need to forgive or rebuild anything. in reconciliation and staying, forgiveness IS a must. so like you... i don't get staying married with a plan of reconciliation AND not forgiving. most of the time, people TRY to forgive. it's a process and they try and try over and over again. some make it, many don't.

 

i never stayed in a relationship (romantic or other) if i couldn't forgive. and i really can't forgive. i don't want to forgive and i don't give 2nd chances. there are people who did me wrong - i removed those people from my life in a heartbeat and moved on.

 

i don't walk around with anger and bitterness in my heart. i don't give a sh*t about those people. i feel nothing when i see them or when someone brings them up. it isn't because i FORGAVE, it's because i FORGOT and removed them from my life -- so they aren't a threat anymore.

 

but if they walked up to me and said - did you forgive me, do you forgive me? the answer is no. it means i'm aware of that person doing me wrong and being my enemy, i am aware of the "danger" that comes with that person. i won't ever act friendly with that person or even civil for that matter. i'ma just ignore their existence alltogether. that's what "not forgiving" means to me.

 

No it is an oxy moron because the fundamental meaning of forgive is to give pardon to. To want justice is the exact defintion of holding something against a person. If you no longer hold something against a person then where would the need for justice be? You want someone for their crime that is the exact opposite of every description of forgiveness there is. It is like we are talking about a completely made up word that has no defintion and doesn't even exsist in the English language. Not to mention many other languages use pardon for forgive!

 

And as to your not forgiving, you are still holding the action against the person as I said so I really wonder why you are even arguing with that. And I have and do agree that the need to forgive is personal with people out of your life. However, as you also agree, it doesn't seem like it is part of reconciliation. And as far as forgiveness being overrated that is also only for your own personality. The Op believes it important.

[autumnnight]

No it is an oxy moron because the fundamental meaning of forgive is to give pardon to. To want justice is the exact defintion of holding something against a person. If you no longer hold something against a person then where would the need for justice be? You want someone for their crime that is the exact opposite of every description of forgiveness there is. It is like we are talking about a completely made up word that has no defintion and doesn't even exsist in the English language. Not to mention many other languages use pardon for forgive!

 

And as to your not forgiving, you are still holding the action against the person as I said so I really wonder why you are even arguing with that. And I have and do agree that the need to forgive is personal with people out of your life. However, as you also agree, it doesn't seem like it is part of reconciliation. And as far as forgiveness being overrated that is also only for your own personality. The Op believes it important.

 

People are arguing because you refuse to see that not only are people in different places in their journey, not everyone sees forgiveness like you do OR like Webster does. And you know what, regardless of what Webster published, that is fine.

 

And let's face it, a WS has a vested interest in insisting on forgiveness. It's kind of like a thief lobbying for lighter sentences for robbery.

[minimariah]

No it is an oxy moron because the fundamental meaning of forgive is to give pardon to.

 

not at all. you CAN forgive & STILL want that person to be held accountable & take responsibility. however, forgiveness comes AFTER the person is punished & takes responsibility so it seems as if forgiveness is the absence of wanting to punish those who did you wrong.

 

in my language (& culture in general), true FORGIVENESS does not mean EXCUSING or giving pardon to. those are two different things where i come from, with different meaning.

 

the OP wants justice because she feels it's necessary for her to forgive.

[Noirek]

not at all. you CAN forgive & STILL want that person to be held accountable & take responsibility. however, forgiveness comes AFTER the person is punished & takes responsibility so it seems as if forgiveness is the absence of wanting to punish those who did you wrong.

 

in my language (& culture in general), true FORGIVENESS does not mean EXCUSING or giving pardon to. those are two different things where i come from, with different meaning.

 

the OP wants justice because she feels it's necessary for her to forgive.

 

I agree, for some people they can only forgive after a price is paid.

 

The OP does want justice... However, they know it probably will never happen and wants to move on.

[Noirek]

People are arguing because you refuse to see that not only are people in different places in their journey, not everyone sees forgiveness like you do OR like Webster does. And you know what, regardless of what Webster published, that is fine.

 

And let's face it, a WS has a vested interest in insisting on forgiveness. It's kind of like a thief lobbying for lighter sentences for robbery.

 

Of course. And I don't think it is wrong for a WS to want forgiveness to be an end goal in R. In fact I am one of those crazy people that believe WS can have boundaries on how they are treated and leave failed R. Crazy. But true.

 

And yeah, I'm getting that some people, even years past infidelity, will hold themselves over their WS to punish them because to forgive is something they do not want to go. And their ws stays and so they both make their choices (maybe not healthy ones). But I'm not getting the idea that the OP feels that way. I mean, he even feels forgiving the AP is important to his wellbeing.

[autumnnight]

Of course. And I don't think it is wrong for a WS to want forgiveness to be an end goal in R. In fact I am one of those crazy people that believe WS can have boundaries on how they are treated and leave failed R. Crazy. But true.

 

And yeah, I'm getting that some people, even years past infidelity, will hold themselves over their WS to punish them because to forgive is something they do not want to go. And their ws stays and so they both make their choices (maybe not healthy ones). But I'm not getting the idea that the OP feels that way. I mean, he even feels forgiving the AP is important to his wellbeing.

 

When it comes down to it, the only people we control is us. And the only recovery we have any say in is our own. I just think it is out of place for another person (and yes, esp a WS) to tell a BS they do not even know what they should feel, what they should do, and how they should define words.

 

And for the record, I too agree that if a WS is humbly working hard and is still being treated like scum and tainted goods years later, they should absolutely leave.

[Noirek]

When it comes down to it, the only people we control is us. And the only recovery we have any say in is our own. I just think it is out of place for another person (and yes, esp a WS) to tell a BS they do not even know what they should feel, what they should do, and how they should define words.

 

And for the record, I too agree that if a WS is humbly working hard and is still being treated like scum and tainted goods years later, they should absolutely leave.

 

Maybe this is true. But not only has the OP thanked me for my posts he has encouraged me as well to continue posting. So who should I listen to?

[understand50]

When it comes down to it, the only people we control is us. And the only recovery we have any say in is our own. I just think it is out of place for another person (and yes, esp a WS) to tell a BS they do not even know what they should feel, what they should do, and how they should define words.

 

And for the record, I too agree that if a WS is humbly working hard and is still being treated like scum and tainted goods years later, they should absolutely leave.

 

Yes, at some point the BS loses the high ground. At some point, different for each couple, person, the BS becomes the one who is in the wrong. When my g/f, now wife, told me about her ONS, one of her biggest fears is that if we got married, I would hold this over her. "you did not do the dishes, oh you cheated as well" I never did bring it up, we had other things to argue about. Learning to "fight fair" is important. By "fighting fair" you do not bring in past "slip ups" to present problems.

 

If the WS is doing all that is asked, and being open, and faithful, and you have decided to reconcile, you need to accept they have changed and act accordingly. No should, and can, live with someone who is angry 24/7 365 days a year. Does this mean that every once in a while I get angry at the things she has done to me? Sure, but I remind myself of what she has done, and is still doing, to make amends. You can forgive, but you will never forget, but this should not consume you. If you let it, you need to divorce and both move on. If you are really reconciling, you must not make the WS life a living hell, as then they can and should leave. To reconcile, you must also work as well to make the relationship work. Nothing in marriage is a one way street.

 

All above is assuming that the WS is making every effort to make things right and change. Has taken responsibility for their actions. Is fully open to all questions that the BS has asked, and shows remorse.

[understand50]

Maybe this is true. But not only has the OP thanked me for my posts he has encouraged me as well to continue posting. So who should I listen to?

 

Noirek,

 

Please continue to post. All sides need to be "argued out"

 

Myself, I am of the opinion, that if Confused48, feels the need to forgive or pity the AP, it is up to him to do so. He has asked for our take on this, but I am sure he will come to his own decision in his own good time. I wish him peace.

 

Myself, the only person I needed to forgive was my G/F now wife. I did so once, and again later when other information came to me on what really happened. For the second time, she could point to years of being a good, faithful, spouse, lover, and mother. As for the other things, financial infidelity, I forgave as well, but we are both working on paying down what she did.