SCOTUS on religious liberty [relevant to recent decision on same-sex marriage]

[BC1980]

It is obvious lots of people here do not know how mission work works. Part of a missionary's goal (in addition, yes, to sharing Christ's love) is to better the community. I'm having a hard time seeing how building a church disrupts an entire economy (probably because it doesn't and that was just more ranting drivel). A missionary often has a secular job or works o serve the community in some way along with sharing their faith on their own time. For those who are pastors, they are almost always involved with helping the poor, the sick, organizing work with organizations like Doctors without Borders.

 

In today's world, I don't think missionaries are out to take over countries and set up colonies. Most of the missionaries I know are going for medical aid or to help out with basic necessities, like distributing toiletries or clothing. I know one group, from a local church, who go to Africa each year and do manual labor to help villages get running water. Maybe hundreds of years ago, yes, missionaries were part of colonization and taking over countries. I don't know all there is to know on that subject but, regardless, today's missionaries are not going into these places with the goal of taking over. The main reason is that the don't have the political backing to even do that.

Edited July 6, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
fixed code

[USMCHokie]

I think it's worth addressing the idea that liberal messages are being forced into our heads through movies and other kinds of media. How is it that there are no conservative messages available, but lots of liberal ones?

 

American colleges and universities have overwhelmingly been taken over by liberal ideology. You don't need movies or other media. Our education system is re-aligning the political spectrum by indoctrinating the youth in our country.

[johan]

American colleges and universities have overwhelmingly been taken over by liberal ideology. You don't need movies or other media. Our education system is re-aligning the political spectrum by indoctrinating the youth in our country.

 

Indoctrinating them? I've never bought that. It's a convenient and conspiratorial and allows you to completely avoid the more likely explanation that conservatives have a bad message when they have one, bad presentation, and generally a lot less appeal. Reagan would be nowhere in modern politics, and you can't blame universities for that. Look to unelectable travesties like Palin, Trump, and Romney before you go blaming Harvard. Blame the intransigent Tea Party, arbitrary obstructionist ideologues like Norquist, and the disastrous neo-cons for generally really turning people in the middle, for whom no one in charge on the "Right" has any regard, right off.

 

One thing I learned in college while I was being indoctrinated: it's the median voter, the person dead-center in the voting pool who elects the president. By definition. Without exception. Every time. Conservatives do all they can to turn that person off ("we'll never compromise on anything ever"), then blame the media and universities for their failure.

 

For the record, I really have a hard time thinking of many hard-core liberal people I went to college with. They all ended up in business of some sort. The most liberal among them stayed in academia. I don't remember a single person who was "indoctrinated". They are all thoughtful and good at critical thinking, and they range from hard-core religious right to average Democrats.

 

If you want to argue that liberal policies tend to have more appeal to people who are better educated, I think I could buy that. But it's not the result of indoctrination. It's just what happens when you spend more time studying things and learn that the black-and-white thinking of conservatives can't apply to society any better than it can to individuals in their daily lives. That thinking is only a nice shortcut for people who don't like to or don't have time to think very much. College indoctrinates you to the middle if anything.

[USMCHokie]

One thing I learned in college while I was being indoctrinated:

 

How long ago did you go to college?

[johan]

 

This is the typical Liberal answer. "Liberals are just smarter!"

 

I think better educated. I would never say smarter. But I think more education means a tendency to reject the messages of the Right. A better educated person just isn't going to enjoy listening to Palin so much, or Trump, who don't think very much. Ron and Rand Paul have more appeal in that regard, and it shows in the kind of people who want to vote for them. I think Clinton has similar appeal, although maybe less. I'd like to know more about Bush.

[USMCHokie]

But I think more education means a tendency to reject the messages of the Right.

 

This would make sense. The more exposed one is to modern post-secondary education (and to some extent, even secondary education), the more one will align to the messages of the left. Not because the messages of the right are inferior, but because such messages don't see much of the light of day at institutions of higher learning.

 

A better educated person just isn't going to enjoy listening to Palin so much, or Trump, who don't think very much.

 

Again, I think the American population underestimate the meaning and value of Trump's viewpoint, as they often don't demonstrate the capacity to consider second and third order effects of policy decisions, or they simply choose to ignore them. They only see "racist" and stop any further thought or analysis of the situation. And in that regard, I see that being the primary weakness of the left, i.e., the inability to set aside prejudice and emotion.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Indoctrinating them? I've never bought that. It's a convenient and conspiratorial and allows you to completely avoid the more likely explanation that conservatives have a bad message when they have one, bad presentation, and generally a lot less appeal.

Plus, college is supposed to teach people how to think and to introduce people to alot of things that might hopefully be new to them, which is more of a liberal than a conservative thing. So maybe by teaching people how to form their own opinions and how to internalize new knowledge IS "indoctrinating" us into liberal thinking. If you want a college that won't do those things I believe they are available but it's not the norm for "education."

[Rejected Rosebud]

I see that being the primary weakness of the left, i.e., the inability to set aside prejudice

You think that embracing prejudice is a good idea? Seriously we are wrong to reject Trump for being a racist? Yeah I guess I'm what you call "A Liberal" though I never think of myself that way - but alot of Republicans in my family think he's a joke and thought so before he spoke like a complete ignoramus on racial issues.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I actually agree with you that the Conservative message is not selling so well, and mostly for the reasons you have stated. The Liberal message is just more entertaining. When it is packaged as entertainment, it sells well. The thing is, even though the Liberal message is mostly packaged as entertainment, that way of life is subtly included in the message.

Can you please give me a kind of thumbnail for what the "Conservative Message" and the "Liberal Message" are because I honestly don't know.

 

That is a shame, because while I do agree with some of the Liberal views, I also feel many of the religious views are correct.

See - this is where I get TOTALLY confused. What I think of as the "Liberal Message" - society being responsible to care for its members, feed the hungry, health care for everybody even if they're a slacker, respect the earth and natural resources that we're stewards of, etc. seems more "Christian" than what I think of as the "Conservative Message." That's more about protect corporations and rich people, we own the Earth so we can take all we want from it willy nilly without caring for the consequences, have guns, power, if you're hungry that's not my problem, etc. Yet "conservatives" have somehow co-opted Christianity!!! How could that happen, that's weird.

[johan]

This would make sense. The more exposed one is to modern post-secondary education (and to some extent, even secondary education), the more one will align to the messages of the left. Not because the messages of the right are inferior, but because such messages don't see much of the light of day at institutions of higher learning.

 

I don't agree. You should give others as much credit as you give yourself for being able to see through the brainwashing and indoctrination they experienced in college. And college is not life. It's just four more years of advanced education. Life happens after college, and that's when political decisions are made by people making the same cost-benefit calculations you have to make. People are no more likely to live life as a liberal just because of their liberal college education than they are to live life with exactly the values their parents "indoctrinated" them with when they were in their truly formative years. Do you live the values your parents gave you or do you choose for yourself? Do you live the life your professors told you was right or do you choose for yourself?

 

Again, I think the American population underestimate the meaning and value of Trump's viewpoint, as they often don't demonstrate the capacity to consider second and third order effects of policy decisions, or they simply choose to ignore them. They only see "racist" and stop any further thought or analysis of the situation. And in that regard, I see that being the primary weakness of the left, i.e., the inability to set aside prejudice and emotion.

 

How the left feels about Trump is never going to be relevant. They will never have a chance to vote against him. His biggest concern is not how the left feels about him, but how the right feels about him. And his party is right: in some parallel universe where he stumbles through the primaries and earns the nomination, he'll lose the election on turnout. Republicans would rather have Hillary.

[jay1983]

You think that embracing prejudice is a good idea? Seriously we are wrong to reject Trump for being a racist? Yeah I guess I'm what you call "A Liberal" though I never think of myself that way - but alot of Republicans in my family think he's a joke and thought so before he spoke like a complete ignoramus on racial issues.

 

Out of every 10 or so illegals who cross the boarder, 1 has a criminal record and didn't come with the intention to work. It really sucks for the other 9, but we're got a real problem. He did that on purpose to get people to talk about the immigration issue.

[pureinheart]

You can't 'opt out' of this class...

 

 

I heard that if the schools don't 'adhere' to this, money would be pulled from the schools via the lunch program.. nice liberals

Edited July 9, 2015 by pureinheart

[autumnnight]

You can't 'opt out' of this class...

 

 

I heard that if the schools don't 'adhere' to this, money would be pulled from the schools via the lunch program.. nice liberals

 

I'm sure this will be defended to the death though.

 

Parents can opt out of having their kids take state tests, kids can opt out of the pledge of allegiance and science assignments (like dissection).

 

But hey, I have no choice but to let my 8 year old hear this.

 

My kid would be sick that day, and not because of my personal views, but based on the principle of parental rights.

[pureinheart]

 

That is pretty much the Liberal message. You should try actually listening to some Conservatives and see what they say for yourself. Since you described their message by giving the Liberal side, you obviously only hear what one side is saying.

 

You know E, this is the problem today... most do not read BOTH sides of the issues, nor do they dig deep, and that's what needs to be done today (and should have been done during the Woodrow Wilson era).

[pureinheart]

I'm sure this will be defended to the death though.

 

Parents can opt out of having their kids take state tests, kids can opt out of the pledge of allegiance and science assignments (like dissection).

 

But hey, I have no choice but to let my 8 year old hear this.

 

My kid would be sick that day, and not because of my personal views, but based on the principle of parental rights.

 

Oh I'm watching this one like a hawk. I have grandchildren now and have a big influence in their lives (which most grandparents do). Here in CA attendance is the main issue. No kid, no money that day for the school. I think my area will fight this tooth and nail.

 

There is an agenda and I know some on the other thread didn't understand why I used the term so frequently. The reason is, I had a BFF/boyfriend who was one of the most intelligent people I know/knew.

 

His family lives close to the gay and lesbian headquarters (one of them, and this is my term, not the official term). His sister turned gay. He didn't think much until he started seeing some very weird things from past and present dealings she had had with them. He realized she was 'recruited' and used that term in his descriptions. The detail was remarkable... anyway, long story short, I have no doubt that this is a well-funded and well-organized agenda.

[Robert Z]

People can wish all they want, but the SCOTUS ruling is not going to stop people from sharing their faith or being Christians in places besides the church. Because Christians have a right to do that.

 

But that doesn't allow them to impose their beliefs on everyone else, and that is the real problem. That is why we see the constant red herrings about marriage in churches and not having the freedom to worship... you know, like the folks in SC did.

[autumnnight]

But that doesn't allow them to impose their beliefs on everyone else, and that is the real problem. That is why we see the constant red herrings about marriage in churches and not having the freedom to worship... you know, like the folks in SC did.

 

And that will be what time will tell. What exactly IS "impose their beliefs on everyone else"? For most rational people, it would mean trying to block what the law has already decided, force someone to pray in school, etc.

 

BUT...for a more angry and bitter segment of the population, simply sharing your faith with someone one-on-one might be something they decide needs to be stamped out, and THAT will be what I watch for. That lone person with a chip on their shoulder who tries to use the court or civil system to keep me from expressing myself as an individual.

[pureinheart]

And that will be what time will tell. What exactly IS "impose their beliefs on everyone else"? For most rational people, it would mean trying to block what the law has already decided, force someone to pray in school, etc.

 

BUT...for a more angry and bitter segment of the population, simply sharing your faith with someone one-on-one might be something they decide needs to be stamped out, and THAT will be what I watch for. That lone person with a chip on their shoulder who tries to use the court or civil system to keep me from expressing myself as an individual.

 

Good post, and hummm, ya, what is that in the context that Robert and most use? I don't see any laws telling people they have to go to church or believe like you or I do. There is a faith that is demanding in this manor (oh and they REALLY hate gays), but you will never hear any outcry or hate towards that the way you hear it with Christianity- why? Fear, plain and simple.

 

Because there is a faith that DOES do all of the things Christianity is accused of (and then some) and nothing is said, tells me that all of this 'shoving down my my throat' is a bunch of dramatic BS!

 

AN, I think it's already going down ... it's well organized made to look like a lone person... the SC is the back door to this entire agenda and it's not going to stop and will become more frequent as we loose our freedom.

[Keenly]

Shoving religion down the throat of society is when you attempt to force everyone to abide by your rules, even when they don't share that belief.

Examples include banning tattoos, outlawing certain foods, banning people from working on Sundays, and anti-gay marriage laws.

 

 

You'd be forcing the nation to abide by your religious rules,.and that would be shoving it down our throat.

 

Examples that would not be considered shoving it down our throat.

Living your own lives by your religious creeds and rules.

A church refusing to marry a gay couple.

Sharing the message with those willing to hear it.

Helping people, offering services or religious counseling etc.

 

Expressing your religious views.

Going to church and church functions. Etc.

[autumnnight]

Shoving religion down the throat of society is when you attempt to force everyone to abide by your rules, even when they don't share that belief.

Examples include banning tattoos, outlawing certain foods, banning people from working on Sundays, and anti-gay marriage laws.

 

 

You'd be forcing the nation to abide by your religious rules,.and that would be shoving it down our throat.

 

Examples that would not be considered shoving it down our throat.

Living your own lives by your religious creeds and rules.

A church refusing to marry a gay couple.

Sharing the message with those willing to hear it.

Helping people, offering services or religious counseling etc.

 

Expressing your religious views.

Going to church and church functions. Etc.

 

This makes perfect sense to me.

 

Like I have said before, I have never actually found the verse that says "Go therefore and be political" or "God so loved the world he created Washington."

[Keenly]

This makes perfect sense to me.

 

Like I have said before, I have never actually found the verse that says "Go therefore and be political" or "God so loved the world he created Washington."

 

Don't forget Romans 13, which I believe you've already cited.

 

Render unto Obama what is Obama's.

[autumnnight]

Don't forget Romans 13, which I believe you've already cited.

 

Render unto Obama what is Obama's.

 

And you know, if someone has a real, serious objection, then civil disobedience is an option. But no one is entitled to be free of the CONSEQUENCES of civil disobedience, which is what a lot of people don't seem to get.

 

I think the 15mph speed limit in the school zone I drive through is ridiculous. So I can be civilly disobedient. But if I get a ticket, I can't whine and say my "freedom to drive as I wish" has been violated

[jay1983]

Shoving religion down the throat of society is when you attempt to force everyone to abide by your rules, even when they don't share that belief.

Examples include banning tattoos, outlawing certain foods, banning people from working on Sundays, and anti-gay marriage laws.

 

 

You'd be forcing the nation to abide by your religious rules,.and that would be shoving it down our throat.

 

Examples that would not be considered shoving it down our throat.

Living your own lives by your religious creeds and rules.

A church refusing to marry a gay couple.

Sharing the message with those willing to hear it.

Helping people, offering services or religious counseling etc.

 

Expressing your religious views.

Going to church and church functions. Etc.

 

This goes both ways, cause gays shouldn't force churches who don't believe in gay marriage to abide by their rules.

[Keenly]

This goes both ways, cause gays shouldn't force churches who don't believe in gay marriage to abide by their rules.

 

Absolutely. 100 percent agree.

 

I've never personally seen a gay person take this stance though. I mean, I'm sure some where out there there are gay people just salivating waiting to demand.church's marry gays.

 

 

But then again, Westboro Baptist church exists too, but I know they are a small small small number of people.

[jay1983]

Absolutely. 100 percent agree.

 

I've never personally seen a gay person take this stance though. I mean, I'm sure some where out there there are gay people just salivating waiting to demand.church's marry gays.

 

 

But then again, Westboro Baptist church exists too, but I know they are a small small small number of people.

 

Well most gays I know don't care if they're married by law either, but stories about gays who do keep popping up.

 

Hang on the law just got passed. Soon you'll see a case about a church under fire for refusing to marry a gay couple.