Do men genuninely value being "no drama"?

[Ninjainpajamas]

I think it's fairly easy to answer this question for women, in that they do "enjoy" drama or at least a lot more tolerable to it...basically a mentality of:

 

- "But he's not always this way! only when he's angry"

- "But I love him, i wish I could walk away but I can't because I love him too much!"

- "He's going to change, he said this or that...and I believe him"

- "He's hot, that's why I put up with hit"

 

The only one of those that I think is applicable to men is the last one..."she's hot"...I think some guys (usually the weaker ones) will put up with a lot more from women because she's attractive.

 

I think all guys will put up with some drama to an extent, but guys pretty much hate drama in their normal everyday lives. They don't know how to negotiate or understand it, it causes them problems and headaches that just eventually cause them to not give a damn...where as with a woman, she just tends to fight harder and sink her teeth deeper in trying to change the guy.

 

I think if you give a guy too much "drama"..he's eventually going to walk away on you, and the guys I see get the most crap from women are married men...and that's because these women know they are screwed financially and bounded through the kids in which they know they can beat the guy up and he can't just walk away...women like that security blanket and take advantage it with them, whereas if she was just dating him she'd probably not do 50 percent of the things she does to her husband.

 

I think women are better at handling drama from men because they tend to be more manipulative of men and their behavior...whereas a man may think he is head strong and in control, she kind of lets him act the way he wants and do what he does while manipulating the situation behind the scenes and getting her commitment or whatever else she desires, plus he keeps her on her toes and challenged...women just don't often like weak or passive men, they don't respect them unless they've got some real power/control issues, but even the women I've dated that were head strong and super independent, wanted a man they didn't feel like they could piss over so I felt personally like they were testing the boundaries, they want a man strong enough and able to "handle" them...but this is not so much the case with men, men want a woman who is to some degree submissive and lets him get away with his ego/pride trips.

 

So at the end of the day I'd have to say No, men do not necessarily value drama but they don't necessarily want a very weak woman either.

 

If you're talking about "crazy" drama or emotional or erratic behavior...I've seen guys just use those kind of women mostly for short-term relationships and whirlwind romances, like flings or what not...not actual relationships, but these women are not high-value targets for men in the long-term.

 

I've dated a woman for a short while, whom always seemed to be drinking a glass of wine, had an extreme amount of road rage and had these really erratic emotional out-bursts...and when she was honking like crazy at a guy and yelling at him outside the window in a underground parking lot to hurry up to pay his parking at the meter and I had to intervene or this was going to escalate, in that moment I knew there was no way for me that this was going to work.

 

She was cute, petite, sexy and in most situations was very clam and relaxed...she didn't necessarily look like or act like the type, but she was very fiery and had a party girl streak to her...but that was that for me, and to be fair I'm not easy guy either so I don't expect a nice neat little package stepford wifey, but there's a line of respect that to me shouldn't be crossed and if she's that way in public to a stranger, I already know she's going to go crazy in an actual relationship.

[GemmaUK]

Drama is not restricted to women.

 

A few guys I have met have been drama kings.

I can't be doing with that.

I actually find it seriously tedious.

[Emilia]

The funny thing is, the one guy I heard that from turned out to be the center of drama.

 

Last year, this guy I knew pursued me. He asked about me to my friends, he wrote me long messages on facebook daily that were very flirtatious, he'd touch my shoulder or sit next to me and stare all the time. The messages he wrote were quite inappropriate because he wasn't single (I didn't know about this at the time). Turns out, he was hiding his girlfriend (whose existence I didn't know about). He told me randomly one time that he hated girls who caused drama. Yet this little scenario he created wasn't drama? ORLY?

 

More guys are into drama than they care to admit. They just say they don't like girls who create drama because they don't want to deal with any fallouts (ie in my case, he was probably hoping I wouldn't say anything to his gf when I finally met her because that would be unnecessary "drama").

 

Couldn't agree more. There is always the classic 'says one thing, does something completely different' that applies to men just as much to women. Most pretend that being together and rational is the be and end of all but once emotions are present, the sensible thing goes out of the window.

 

I think people in general don't always feel comfortable if their SO has their shlt under control all the time. I think people relate to emotions better than sensibility even if it annoys them at times. Both men and women need to feel that their SO is into them and that doesn't manifest itself through sensible behaviour. Besides, the idea is to emotionally engage the other person. That won't happen through reciting Mathematical equations.

[Taramere]

Couldn't agree more. There is always the classic 'says one thing, does something completely different' that applies to men just as much to women. Most pretend that being together and rational is the be and end of all but once emotions are present, the sensible thing goes out of the window.

 

I think people in general don't always feel comfortable if their SO has their shlt under control all the time. I think people relate to emotions better than sensibility even if it annoys them at times. Both men and women need to feel that their SO is into them and that doesn't manifest itself through sensible behaviour. Besides, the idea is to emotionally engage the other person. That won't happen through reciting Mathematical equations.

 

Right. The longest - albeit very on off -relationship I had was one where I was generally very sensible and stable for the sake of the relationship (even if I often didn't feel it inside) whereas he was usually the unstable one. It was really hard work - paddling frantically under the surface while maintaining this calm facade for a guy who really couldn't handle much in the way of drama or emotion from me. Because he had enough of a hard time handling his own. On the rare occasions I became emotional around him, he would get really anxious. So I tried not to.

 

But sooner or later, things build up to a point where you're going to have an emotional outburst. For me I had a few - which would usually result in me ending the relationship (temporarily) because he just couldn't handle me in an emotional state...even though his selfishness was contributing in fair part to some of it.

 

When we did eventually break up for good, it was certainly a lot of drama. I'd lost my job, I'd sold my flat to move to be with him, he cheated on me etc. I was faced full force with what a shallow, flimsy relationship it actually was...and how foolish I'd been to persevere with it for so long. If had let loose with a bit of drama and emotion earlier on, it would have ended for good much sooner - and that would have been a very positive thing. The bottom line was that he didn't love me enough to deal with any drama from me - but so long as I was an easy to be around, laid back, "rational" girlfriend who reacted calmly and supportively to any strange outbursts, well he might not have really loved me but I seemed like good girlfriend material.

 

It's a difficult balance. Obviously you don't want to create drama for the sake of it - but neither is it good to be constantly placing yourself under pressure to seem strong and together for somebody who perhaps doesn't appreciate the effort as much as you would hope. So yeah. While I think men do value "no drama" women it's sometimes in the way that guy valued me. Being with me gave him a sense that he was growing up and making good choices. Plus we had a sound sex life. All the essentials for the kind of "good relationship" we so often hear men talk about being all they really want were there. I think it made him feel as though he was projecting an aura of "I've finally got it together" with friends who doubted he ever would get it together.

 

But he wasn't passionate about me. His passions were stirred up by women who had similar problems/history to his own. Unapologetically dysfunctional, drama laden...he'd profess to despise them, but he was definitely drawn to them. More and more, I would feel like the sensible parent who's doing all the right things - but feels as though their child has more love for the narcissistic, irresponsible parent. I suppose it's a bit like the Nice Guy syndrome really.

 

Ideally, however old you are you can get to be a bit of a child within your friendships and relationships. If somebody doesn't want to see that side of you, it's likely because there's not that strong a connection. Or because they've got you firmly entrenched in some sensible parent type role, in their mind, and they don't want to see you shift out of it. I think that within any genuine relationship there's a bit more room for flexibility. A bit more allowance for people not being perfectly grown up and rational all the time.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Taramere

[Emilia]

Beautifully put Taramere, I know you and I had chats about this but I didn't realise the full story.

 

Maybe from him it was a sense of .... rebellion towards the one who seemed to be more in control. That's the old parent-child dynamic. I think men end up resenting women that they feel show them up because looking into yourself as to why you keep screwing up is hard. As much as men can be more direct, I think they are also more resistant to face faults.

 

Sometimes references come up to 'women dating felons' and I think it's largely the same: people tend to be happy with their own kind. Whichever way that's defined. Not always obvious to outsiders. I think there is a lot to be said for being yourself, preferably the more adult version but yourself nevertheless.

[Haydn]

 

Ideally, however old you are you can get to be a bit of a child within your friendships and relationships. If somebody doesn't want to see that side of you, it's likely because there's not that strong a connection. Or because they've got you firmly entrenched in some sensible parent type role, in their mind, and they don't want to see you shift out of it. I think that within any genuine relationship there's a bit more room for flexibility. A bit more allowance for people not being perfectly grown up and rational all the time.

 

Very true. Nothing worse that a logical RS, obviously not a nut job but someone who doesn`t mind a bit of childish drama.

[hotpotato]

Like anything it's all about balance. Too much and you start to get an ulcer, too little and there really isn't any kind of passion or fireworks.

 

I'm glad you said it, if I did,everyone's head would explode.

 

For most people, romantic relationships are a second chance at solving FOO issues. Naturally, a lot of people want some kind of drama. Also, there is some kind of drama, after all no two people will agree on everything.

 

No drama sounds nice, but a lot of people will find it boring and dispassionate. Most of the time in life, if you're not making a fuss over it, you don't really care about it.

[Taramere]

Beautifully put Taramere, I know you and I had chats about this but I didn't realise the full story.

 

Maybe from him it was a sense of .... rebellion towards the one who seemed to be more in control. That's the old parent-child dynamic. I think men end up resenting women that they feel show them up because looking into yourself as to why you keep screwing up is hard. As much as men can be more direct, I think they are also more resistant to face faults.

 

I think if you spoke to him, he would probably tell you that I was an emotional mess. Because at the end of the relationship, I certainly was. And I think that made him feel more in control. But to get to that point he had to first inform me (a couple of hours after picking me up from the airport) that he had cheated on me. That didn't work. I mean, I did cry a bit - but that was all. I remember overhearing him telling his housemate that my reaction was "unimpressed but not astonished". Though that description probably reflected me as he wanted to see me more than me as I actually am.

 

Then the next night he said we were going out partying and that he should warn me I might encounter a few women he'd cheated on me with. I realise how ridiculous it is that I didn't just say "that's enough - I'm packing my bags and leaving right now." But I was numb and in shock. Not thinking straight. All I could think was "stay calm, don't react to this". Before we went out, he said "and before you start, X (a female colleague of his who I had said I suspected had a crush on him) will be there - but there hasn't been anything between us."

 

So we went out, met up with X and her friends - and the moment she tried to chat with me in a friendly way (while her friends shot daggers at me with their eyes) I knew he'd f*cked her. Then some random group of people "adopted" me for the evening. They were very nice, friendly people. It was clear that there was a sort of split in the expats camp...and the ones who adopted me were, in my view, the cooler and more attractive half. So as you can imagine, I ended up having a pretty good time. I think, though, that those people knew exactly what was going on and "adopted" me because they felt bad for me.

 

The moment we got home after that night out, I said "that was fun - those were nice people" and he snapped back "I DID sleep with X." So the next day, I'm still trying to keep my cool in between crying bouts. We went out again - this time with one of his male friends. There were a couple of guys from Jamaica there. One of them took a shine to me and obviously didn't realise that I was in any sort of relationship with the guy sitting next to me (and you couldn't blame him for not realising). He became a bit flirtatious, and bf then had a really inappropriately jealous outburst which embarrassed everybody.

 

It was like "hello, I'm trying to remain calm - you're subjecting me to all this socialising in the midst of a very difficult emotional situation. You keep telling me that I'm not going to make friends if I move here, because I'm too shy. Then when it seems like other people do in fact like me - it makes you angry, and you want to hurt me more."

 

And yeah. The next day I threw a major wobbly at him, packed my bags and moved into a hotel. There was a little bit more drama. This time created solely by me because I was in a bad place indeed (I invited him round to the hotel and attempted to seduce him. I know ). Then the next day we met up for a last lunch, he congratulated me on my calm demeanour and I've never seen him again. Nor do I ever want to!

 

That was way more drama than I could have ever asked for or wanted. It was completely toxic, and it took me a long time to forgive myself for not just calling a taxi and getting back on the plane the moment he had his "I've been cheating on you" outburst.

 

Basically we had met at university (my second degree). He had a hard time on that course - not academically, but socially. He wasn't really accepted by the students - other than his own small clique of friends. I thought, naively, that he looked down on them all - as that was how he would portray it. However, I think underneath it all, he was probably feeling the pain of rejection. I took some stick from other students for getting involved with him, but generally they accepted the relationship - and in fact, they started being more accepting towards him.

 

So there was that background. I think he really wanted to turn it around and have this situation where I was the troubled misfit. Only, he didn't want me to be accepted by people he knew. I think he wanted me to experience what he'd gone through at university - even though I'd been one of the people who'd liked him, rather than dismissing him as a weirdo. What a codependent mess it was - and what a sense of victimhood I developed in the course of it.

 

Embarrassing to look back on, but ultimately I learned a lot from it. Most of all, in many ways I've gone back to being a more mature version of the person I was before that relationship. For a while after it broke down, I really felt that I'd lost myself.

 

Sometimes references come up to 'women dating felons' and I think it's largely the same: people tend to be happy with their own kind. Whichever way that's defined. Not always obvious to outsiders. I think there is a lot to be said for being yourself, preferably the more adult version but yourself nevertheless.

 

I agree. There can never be such a thing as absolute equality of course, but I think you do need a lot of parity in a relationship. The woman dating a felon probably has a lot of antisocial behaviour herself. And maybe the two of them will end up killing eachother....but what's the alternative? Both of them getting hooked up with people who are generally fairly normal but have a streak of the rescuer about them, which will turn into full blown codependency?

[Emilia]

Very toxic, codependent but you live and learn. See I scoff at extroverted popular people sometimes saying it's shallow to respect them but then there is often a reason why someone is popular or unpopular. You learn this as you get older. What matters to me today at the age of 43 is how a man deals with disappointment, stress, resentment in and of himself. I see so many people who need to make others feel bad to feel good. We all do that to a degree but when you see fuming resentment, you have to leave.

 

Don't think anyone that posts here realised the extent of the emotional abuse Taramere. You have done very well at putting it behind you.

[central]

IMO, people who like drama are often narcissists who want attention - even negative attention - and want everything to be about them. I think drama is a clear sign of psychological dysfunction or illness.

[Emilia]

IMO, people who like drama are often narcissists who want attention - even negative attention - and want everything to be about them. I think drama is a clear sign of psychological dysfunction or illness.

 

Another thing I learned is that those who dismiss traits they see negative as 'only others do this' are not honest with themselves.

[central]

Another thing I learned is that those who dismiss traits they see negative as 'only others do this' are not honest with themselves.

 

Ah, you are creating drama! You must be a narcissist!

[Eternal Sunshine]

Very toxic, codependent but you live and learn. See I scoff at extroverted popular people sometimes saying it's shallow to respect them but then there is often a reason why someone is popular or unpopular. You learn this as you get older. What matters to me today at the age of 43 is how a man deals with disappointment, stress, resentment in and of himself. I see so many people who need to make others feel bad to feel good. We all do that to a degree but when you see fuming resentment, you have to leave.

 

Don't think anyone that posts here realised the extent of the emotional abuse Taramere. You have done very well at putting it behind you.

 

Much respect to Taramere for both sharing this and overcoming it...I had no idea.

[Taramere]

Very toxic, codependent but you live and learn. See I scoff at extroverted popular people sometimes saying it's shallow to respect them but then there is often a reason why someone is popular or unpopular. You learn this as you get older. What matters to me today at the age of 43 is how a man deals with disappointment, stress, resentment in and of himself. I see so many people who need to make others feel bad to feel good. We all do that to a degree but when you see fuming resentment, you have to leave.

 

Don't think anyone that posts here realised the extent of the emotional abuse Taramere. You have done very well at putting it behind you.

 

I suppose the difficult thing is that it had really not been what I would regard as an abusive relationship up until that point. He could be selfish and a bit narcissistic - but I wouldn't have said abusive. I think he just suddenly had a taste of power, and the upper hand, and that changed everything. It was just a few days of awful drama, so I don't feel like it's even comparable to some of the stuff I've read on here. Re the introvert/extrovert thing...he was actually very much an extrovert. I was the introverted one of the relationship. I know it sounds odd, given that he didn't fit in very well. On the other hand, ours is a fairly reserved culture perhaps.

 

ES...thank you, but again, I'm feeling like a bit of a fraud getting sympathy about that. Because God knows...some of the stuff we see in the abuse section makes my little drama all that time ago pale into insignificance. It was huge for me some years back, though. I never wrote so much about it, because "don't play the victim" is such a major mantra on this board. And I didn't know how to talk about it without coming across as a victim. And to be honest, I still don't. I think it's difficult generally for people to talk about the dramas in their lives where they've felt like/been a victim without exposing themselves to a lot of criticism from people who maybe don't get how acutely aware they are of "I'm coming across as a pathetic victim /drama queen".

 

Oh. Just to add. This thread being about drama, I have to add my favourite reference point once again...

 

http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm

 

I think it's such a fantastic tool to remind us how easy it is to slip into drama and how we can pull ourselves back out of it when we need to. We all do it to an extent. I think it's really a case of learning when to say "okay, that's enough drama" or "the drama is going too far. It's time to pull back and return to adult mode."

Edited June 27, 2015 by Taramere

[Emilia]

Good link, I'll read it properly (on a phone ATM). I don't think you show a victim mentality at all. I think you find it difficult because you feel he didn't love you enough. That's a very hard thing to deal with regardless whether true or not. Certainly I can't tell from the posts. Good that you walked away as the relationship turned, I am genuinely surprised that he was an extrovert though feel better because I prefer introverts

[Haydn]

I suppose the difficult thing is that it had really not been what I would regard as an abusive relationship up until that point. He could be selfish and a bit narcissistic - but I wouldn't have said abusive. I think he just suddenly had a taste of power, and the upper hand, and that changed everything. It was just a few days of awful drama, so I don't feel like it's even comparable to some of the stuff I've read on here. Re the introvert/extrovert thing...he was actually very much an extrovert. I was the introverted one of the relationship. I know it sounds odd, given that he didn't fit in very well. On the other hand, ours is a fairly reserved culture perhaps.

 

ES...thank you, but again, I'm feeling like a bit of a fraud getting sympathy about that. Because God knows...some of the stuff we see in the abuse section makes my little drama all that time ago pale into insignificance. It was huge for me some years back, though. I never wrote so much about it, because "don't play the victim" is such a major mantra on this board. And I didn't know how to talk about it without coming across as a victim. And to be honest, I still don't. I think it's difficult generally for people to talk about the dramas in their lives where they've felt like/been a victim without exposing themselves to a lot of criticism from people who maybe don't get how acutely aware they are of "I'm coming across as a pathetic victim /drama queen".

 

Oh. Just to add. This thread being about drama, I have to add my favourite reference point once again...

 

The Drama Triangle: The Three Roles of Victimhood - article by Dr. Lynne Namka

 

I think it's such a fantastic tool to remind us how easy it is to slip into drama and how we can pull ourselves back out of it when we need to. We all do it to an extent. I think it's really a case of learning when to say "okay, that's enough drama" or "the drama is going too far. It's time to pull back and return to adult mode."

 

I like this. I put myself in a toxic and abusive RS which of course brought me here. I think i did play into the victim role though. But one of the lessons i guess. In my case drama was created merely to manipulated and control. (And it worked for a while)

 

Thanks for sharing Taramere.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Some men like drama too.

 

I had a thread some time ago and people actually said they wanted a relationship with some conflict. Men and women did. A lot of them.

 

Not me. I want none.

[Woggle]

Any two people will disagree but I prefer somebody who can sit down like an adult and handle problems maturely instead of flipping out all the time.

[tuxedo cat]

I suppose the difficult thing is that it had really not been what I would regard as an abusive relationship up until that point. He could be selfish and a bit narcissistic - but I wouldn't have said abusive. I think he just suddenly had a taste of power, and the upper hand, and that changed everything. It was just a few days of awful drama, so I don't feel like it's even comparable to some of the stuff I've read on here. Re the introvert/extrovert thing...he was actually very much an extrovert. I was the introverted one of the relationship. I know it sounds odd, given that he didn't fit in very well. On the other hand, ours is a fairly reserved culture perhaps.

 

ES...thank you, but again, I'm feeling like a bit of a fraud getting sympathy about that. Because God knows...some of the stuff we see in the abuse section makes my little drama all that time ago pale into insignificance. It was huge for me some years back, though. I never wrote so much about it, because "don't play the victim" is such a major mantra on this board. And I didn't know how to talk about it without coming across as a victim. And to be honest, I still don't. I think it's difficult generally for people to talk about the dramas in their lives where they've felt like/been a victim without exposing themselves to a lot of criticism from people who maybe don't get how acutely aware they are of "I'm coming across as a pathetic victim /drama queen".

 

Oh. Just to add. This thread being about drama, I have to add my favourite reference point once again...

 

The Drama Triangle: The Three Roles of Victimhood - article by Dr. Lynne Namka

 

I think it's such a fantastic tool to remind us how easy it is to slip into drama and how we can pull ourselves back out of it when we need to. We all do it to an extent. I think it's really a case of learning when to say "okay, that's enough drama" or "the drama is going too far. It's time to pull back and return to adult mode."

 

It sounds like he was emotionally abusive. Insisting you come to a social gathering full of the women he cheated on you with is straight up sadistic. And I bet he would have held it against you in some way or called you sensitive/dramatic/difficult if you hadn't gone. Doesn't mean he was consciously thinking "I'm going to abuse her now." Unless someone is a true sociopath, I think abuse often (usually?) operates on a subconscious level. It's something people compartmentalize or rationalize.

 

I'm glad you shared this story. Don't take this the wrong way but I always had the impression you were one of those people who is afraid of showing vulnerability and judges others for "playing the victim card", so it definitely humanizes you that you felt comfortable sharing it.

Edited June 27, 2015 by tuxedo cat

[tuxedo cat]

Any two people will disagree but I prefer somebody who can sit down like an adult and handle problems maturely instead of flipping out all the time.

 

I haven't found a good way of resolving conflict with hot-headed people. I used to shout back at them but lately I've tried adopting a calmer style. The funny thing is I notice this detached approach actually infuriates them more. Now, when I try to stay rational and level-headed I get accused of shirking responsibility or being manipulative, accusations I never got before when I was crying or yelling in their face. Has anyone else experienced this?

[writergal]

I haven't found a good way of resolving conflict with hot-headed people. I used to shout back at them but lately I've tried adopting a calmer style. The funny thing is I notice this detached approach actually infuriates them more. Now, when I try to stay rational and level-headed I get accused of shirking responsibility or being manipulative, accusations I never got before when I was crying or yelling in their face. Has anyone else experienced this?

 

Yes. I have. When you hold your boundaries in a calm, rational way with someone who accuses you of being manipulative, it's because that person is gaslighting you. Narcissists are notorious for gaslighting people who hold them up to reasonable standards. But the narcissist doesn't want to answer for their actions, they turn it back on the person and basically go ape-sh*t on them trying to get that person to back down and second-guess their own choices. And you can be gaslighted by people whom you have platonic relationships with. It isn't just for romantic relationships. Toxic personalities use gaslighting like a psychological tool to undermine their victims self esteem.

 

From the website I linked.

 

gaslighting, as a harassment technique, starts with a series of subtle mind games that intentionally prays on the gaslightee’s limited ability to tolerate ambiguity or uncertainty. This is done in order to undercut the victim’s trust in their own sense of reality and sense of self, thus resulting in confusion and perplexity for the victim.

 

Even when the victim is bewildered and left wondering, “What just happened there?”, there is a reluctance to see the gaslighter for what they are, actually it is this denial that is the cornerstone of the gaslighting relationship

 

Once you recognize what gaslighting is, you can shut down the person doing it by calling them out on it. They will feign knowledge of gaslighting to evade blame, but don't fall for it. Just call them out and tell them the consequences of gaslighting you, so that they learn what your boundaries are immediately. If they give you any crap for setting boundaries with them, eject them from your life because they will only poison it.

[Vercetti]

I guess I just find that label, that term 'drama' so misogynistic, so pejorative. It's a way to downplay the emotional spectrum that women access to respond to different situations with men, especially relationship conflict.

 

Ex. A couple has a relationship argument.

 

The man's response to the woman's complaints or concerns over his behavior is to call her a 'drama queen.' He does this to shut her down from expressing herself, because he doesn't respect her and doesn't want to validate her feelings even if he disagrees with her. It's a short-cut that misogynistic men use to regain control of a situation where they feel emotionally threatened.

 

Whereas the woman just expressed concern about something he said to her, or did, so that she could get clarification. She is puzzled and her feelings are hurt because it's her right to seek clarity from her relationship partner when she has doubts or concerns about his words or actions towards her in the relationship.

 

So, I view that phrase 'drama queen' as being a manipulative tool that men use against women, when they feel their way of treating her is threatened. Calling a woman a 'drama queen' (in the man's view) exempts him from having to take responsibility for his actions towards her, because he feels guilty and doesn't like feeling guilty, so he shuts her down by taking the focus off of himself, and in a way, gaslighting her so she will shut down emotionally and not seek the clarity she wanted from him in the first place.

 

Communication in relationships is a two-way street. If you always have to shut the woman down by calling her a 'drama queen,' or advertise yourself as looking for a 'drama free' woman, then I think you (in the general sense of the word, not good relationship material.

 

As far as you dating women who are mentally ill goes, I disagree that calling them 'drama queens' is accurate. If anything, it's just another way to invalidate them as people (and that's not what I am). Dating someone with a mental illness is only successful if you know what you're getting yourself into. Plus, it takes two to tango. If you don't like that behavior, break up with the woman. Simple solution.

 

I'm married, wife and I at a distance observe the childish behavior. Everyone has encountered one of those. Mostly younger with nothing going on except being magically offened by anything. Egocentric, clueless, and immature.

 

Think you're getting caught up in semantics with a bit of persecution complex. Men and women with healthy expressions of emotion and basic ability to communicate, scoff with rolled eyed amusement at a distance that drama queen / king behavior.

 

Maybe just sometimes when a guy says stop being a drama queen, it's not absolutely selfish or dismissive. Perhaps it's just a bold reality check, a attempt to break a unhealthy compulsion, to bring down to earth it's not that bad...we have better things to do then tilt windmills and shadow box.

 

I do find it sad that men are automatically bad and that drama that can be from men or women that is a undeveloped manipulation of attention seeking is somehow not toxic or abusive.

[Taramere]

It sounds like he was emotionally abusive. Insisting you come to a social gathering full of the women he cheated on you with is straight up sadistic. And I bet he would have held it against you in some way or called you sensitive/dramatic/difficult if you hadn't gone. Doesn't mean he was consciously thinking "I'm going to abuse her now." Unless someone is a true sociopath, I think abuse often (usually?) operates on a subconscious level. It's something people compartmentalize or rationalize.

 

When we talked about it (while I was in the hotel, and a couple of days before I caught a plane home) I told him that I felt the entire weekend had felt like one massive test that he was determined I should fail. He looked horrified and said he could understand why I would see it in that way.

 

I'm not sure that he was thinking straight. I think he had made a new life for himself, felt that things were starting to work out - and he didn't want me coming over there reminding him of the past. Regardless of whether I'd been supportive in that past. I can look back and understand that a lot better now.

 

A few years later, one of his friends told me that he (the ex) had had various relationships since - with a couple of very attractive girls (the implication being much more attractive than me - which I didn't doubt, given where he was living)...but that he had treated them worse than he had treated me. The friend said "you would never have stood for the way he's acting now".

 

That made me feel better in some ways, but worse in others. I'm glad that his friends (who I never felt liked or respected me much) saw me as somebody who wouldn't have put up with the increasingly unpleasant person he seemed to be turning into. However, I also got this sense of that last vile weekend I had with him being a dark turning point for him. I felt sorry for whoever he was getting involved with, and really didn't want to know much more about it.

 

I'm glad you shared this story. Don't take this the wrong way but I always had the impression you were one of those people who is afraid of showing vulnerability and judges others for "playing the victim card", so it definitely humanizes you that you felt comfortable sharing it.

 

I think there's a lot of projection involved. When you feel ashamed and weak for being a victim, you're berating yourself for it a lot. Other people - strangers - on a message board can be a representation of that self you're berating. There's also that sense of warning them "don't fall into that. You could make yourself vulnerable to some really bad people."

 

Also - being a bit of a rescuer was what drew me into that bad relationship..which ultimately resulted in me being a victim (as a detached psychologist could no doubt have predicted). It's the nature of drama. We all have experiences of being immersed in it - and when we see other people's dramas it reminds us of that.

 

You and I clashed, in the past, primarily because I felt you were trying to draw me into that role of rescuer which has led me into such major problems in the past. But you didn't know the reasons for that being a trigger for me. So of course, it feels personal - and it becomes personal. But it's those clashes we have, unpleasant though they are, that help us to see ourselves more clearly.

 

It could be another reason for people being drawn to drama. Because they hope to find some answers about themselves/their behaviour in the course of acting out that drama.

[tuxedo cat]

Yes. I have. When you hold your boundaries in a calm, rational way with someone who accuses you of being manipulative, it's because that person is gaslighting you. Narcissists are notorious for gaslighting people who hold them up to reasonable standards. But the narcissist doesn't want to answer for their actions, they turn it back on the person and basically go ape-sh*t on them trying to get that person to back down and second-guess their own choices. And you can be gaslighted by people whom you have platonic relationships with. It isn't just for romantic relationships. Toxic personalities use gaslighting like a psychological tool to undermine their victims self esteem.

 

From the website I linked.

 

 

 

Once you recognize what gaslighting is, you can shut down the person doing it by calling them out on it. They will feign knowledge of gaslighting to evade blame, but don't fall for it. Just call them out and tell them the consequences of gaslighting you, so that they learn what your boundaries are immediately. If they give you any crap for setting boundaries with them, eject them from your life because they will only poison it.

 

The problem is the people who gaslight are not the type of people who would be self-aware enough to understand what they're doing. I had an ex who would gaslight me constantly, and when I tried to point it out to him he would use it as even more gaslighting fuel: "if you think I'm doing that your perception of reality is so skewed." Once he realized he could get the upper hand with me, because I put up with his crap, there was no going back or winning. With somebody like that, the only way out is to walk away. No point in explaining yourself.

[Emilia]

Some men like drama too.

 

I had a thread some time ago and people actually said they wanted a relationship with some conflict. Men and women did. A lot of them.

 

Not me. I want none.

 

Yes I was one of those people. I see conflict as a necessity to achieve growth. My definition of conflict isn't screaming and shouting, however. It's disagreement which is very healthy and shouldn't be stifled. If you never disagree, you will never have a fulfilling relationship since your voice won't be heard. I think sometimes people need to learn how to assert themselves rather than avoid confrontation.