I don't initiate.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

You guys are only creating barriers for Yourselves. Go after what you want.

 

But most women will remain stubborn

[neowulf]

I'll give you the exact same answer ladies give to struggling guys.

 

If he is attracted to you, your pursuit will be successful. If he isn't, it won't work, and it won't have anything to do with " men like the chase "

 

I know you ladies are too smart to believe the narrative that some how pursuing a man voids his attraction. That's not true, he just wasnt into you to begin with.

 

You're missing the third option.

 

He's at a loose end and an interested woman could equal = free sex.

That's always the danger with a woman approaching a man. Providing she's of average attractiveness, he may well decide to "give it a try", despite the fact he knows he's got no interest long term.

 

Men, generally speaking, are not as picky as women when it comes to choosing a lover.

[mr_dave]

I'm not sure it's such a good policy to be passive. If it must be the guy who asks you out, at the very least make it obvious that you are both interested and available. Some women will flirt with everyone but be unavailable, others a guy might think to himself 'she's amazing, there's no way she could be single'

 

You might miss out on a really great guy whose only ' flaw' is that he's a little shy.

[Timshel]

I actually think that being receptive but letting the man initiate is a winning strategy OP.

 

I can only speak for certain with myself here, but the dynamic I am most comfortable with (early on at least) is that I pursue and she is receptive/sets the boundaries.

 

I can tell when a woman could be interested without her having to actually take the initiative. When a woman takes too much of the initiative though, things feel off to me. I can't quite pinpoint why. I guess I feel taken out of my role. I don't feel as masculine around her and therefore, not as attracted. I also feel forced to take on the feminine role of being receptive and/or setting boundaries (e.g., whether sex will happen) and I just feel weird put in this position. I will tend not to feel that I CHOSE her (as she did so much of the work early on) and that will blunt some of my enthusiasm for the relationship. Anyway that's the best way I can think of to explain why.

 

I think many of the guys who are thinking you should initiate OP, are envisioning a sort of fantasy. Most of these guys probably haven't had much female attention, so these guys feel that a woman willing to do so much of the work early on would be a dream come true. But it doesn't work like that in reality.

 

OP from your pictures and posts (looks and intelligence) you seem like quite an attractive woman. I am sure you will have no problems finding a guy to make the first move....and the right guy will!

 

Agree. My boyfriend moved to my town from pretty far away just to be with me and have a 'normal' relationship instead of an LDR. One of several reasons due to his own initiative that I believe him when he tells me how invested he is in our relationship and what he feels about me.

[Els]

You guys are only creating barriers for Yourselves. Go after what you want.

 

Absolutely. This IS going after what we want - because what we want is a guy who will take the initiative. Settling on that aspect would be the equivalent of NOT going after what we want.

 

There is no barrier. It has worked fairly well for me.

[Phoe]

I know you ladies are too smart to believe the narrative that some how pursuing a man voids his attraction. That's not true, he just wasnt into you to begin with.

 

I do agree that in the majority of cases this is true.

 

But there are definitely instances where men just plain find it unattractive/weird/alarming if a woman pursues him.

 

Heck, I remember quite a while back making a thread about pursuing, and a good chunk of men were horrified at it and said "Don't!!!"

 

But indeed my guess would be that in my 100% rejection rate, probably 90% of them were due to what you mentioned above, plain and simple.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

You're missing the third option.

 

He's at a loose end and an interested woman could equal = free sex.

That's always the danger with a woman approaching a man. Providing she's of average attractiveness, he may well decide to "give it a try", despite the fact he knows he's got no interest long term.

 

Men, generally speaking, are not as picky as women when it comes to choosing a lover.

 

Yup, sperm is cheap, eggs are expensive

[toscaroscura]

I'm not sure it's such a good policy to be passive. If it must be the guy who asks you out, at the very least make it obvious that you are both interested and available. Some women will flirt with everyone but be unavailable, others a guy might think to himself 'she's amazing, there's no way she could be single'

 

You might miss out on a really great guy whose only ' flaw' is that he's a little shy.

 

I do make it obvious, and I don't flirt with everyone.

 

I don't mean to sound testy, but I have reiterated this many times in this thread, yet some of you guys still see me as some kind of completely passive cold fish. I am not!

[Ninjainpajamas]

I think any woman with any kind of common sense, social skills and experience knows that pursuing men to aggressively/forward (making their interest and attention entirely too clear) is something that scars off men...I don't know how Keenly gives half of the advice on this forum that I read, it's like cooked up next to a meth lab, it's like this artificial manufactured advice only effective in his world.

 

As a woman, you just don't want to make yourself and your intentions entirely too clear. It is just NOT a dynamic men are familiar, especially inexperienced/shy men who have no idea what to do or how to handle spontaneous confrontation without drawing a blank.

 

It's like walking down a road inside of a garden, men are looking left and right at the pretty flowers (women). They're commenting from afar, they're observing, they're in their own mental and emotional space comfortable with their own thoughts and feelings...and then all of a sudden a flower jumps onto the road is like "OH HEY HOW ARE YOU, IT'S NICE TO MEET YOU, I'M SARA, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO OUT WITH ME SOMETIME!".....AHHHHHHH!

 

and the men scatter like roaches under a porch light being switched on.

 

That whole "experience" for most of these men, to be approached by these women so openly, so transparently, when they're used to taking a back seat in life and can't even approach a woman they are interested in on their best day, in the best case scenario (where the woman is isolated and standing there looking around but not too uninviting)...they don't know how to react to "aggression", a woman's pursuit sends them off the radar mentality, it's like mission control we're experiencing, please evacuate all personnel immediately!

 

These guys are for one shocked and unprepared, and if they are not that, they are clueless and unaware of what to say or how to behave...at best they take your interest to heart and get an ego boost out of it, but actually moving it forward would just be too quick because you ruined all the little back and forth process of them trying to be comfortable with you at their own pace.

 

These men are like children, you've got to be really careful, calm, relaxed, patient and not put too much pressure.

 

But even for your non-nerd,geek, shy...it's almost like "Whoa, what's the catch here? why is this woman so aggression, she some kind of prostitute?"...It's like that random person on the street that comes up to you randomly and start acting really nice, you know they want something....money, to sell something, to steal something, I mean something has got to be going on, it's suspicious.

 

It takes a more confident/social guy to be able to bear the brunt of that very straight-forward interaction, because this is how most women are...they like things "simple" when they're being simple, when they're chasing a guy and he's making it complicated, it's intriguing and mysterious but when she wants simple she wants simple and the answers served right to her on a golden platter. The only guy that's going to be able to manage that type of interaction is someone who is more used to it and familiar with attention, or somewhat with a social personality...which is not the type of guys the OP to me, sounds like she goes after.

 

But even then, if a woman is overly aggressive, or pursues ever so slightly, it takes away too much of the chase...that's why men generally prefer flirtation and playful behavior from women, that let him know she is interested without making the moves herself...that for the most part will throw men off their little "game" or plan, of how they engage women, men need a whole process of preparation most of the time to pursue a woman, they have a certain strategy. When you talk to men like that, they are trying to mentally and emotionally grasp and gauge what is happening first, they're not really interacting with you yet...similar to women, however women tend to be much more socially capable than men in many situations and less afraid to show vulnerability/emotions than men.

 

It really for men, just depends on the situation and how you do it, but this is a role that I believe men are naturally responsible for but obviously culture has removed the balls of many men, and anything seen as aggressive is seen as macho and overbearing these days, feminism has told men to behave like pussies and they're following suit..welcome to "equality" in the western world.

[Keenly]

I think any woman with any kind of common sense, social skills and experience knows that pursuing men to aggressively/forward (making their interest and attention entirely too clear) is something that scars off men...I don't know how Keenly gives half of the advice on this forum that I read, it's like cooked up next to a meth lab, it's like this artificial manufactured advice only effective in his world.

 

As a woman, you just don't want to make yourself and your intentions entirely too clear. It is just NOT a dynamic men are familiar, especially inexperienced/shy men who have no idea what to do or how to handle spontaneous confrontation without drawing a blank.

 

It's like walking down a road inside of a garden, men are looking left and right at the pretty flowers (women). They're commenting from afar, they're observing, they're in their own mental and emotional space comfortable with their own thoughts and feelings...and then all of a sudden a flower jumps onto the road is like "OH HEY HOW ARE YOU, IT'S NICE TO MEET YOU, I'M SARA, WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO OUT WITH ME SOMETIME!".....AHHHHHHH!

 

and the men scatter like roaches under a porch light being switched on.

 

That whole "experience" for most of these men, to be approached by these women so openly, so transparently, when they're used to taking a back seat in life and can't even approach a woman they are interested in on their best day, in the best case scenario (where the woman is isolated and standing there looking around but not too uninviting)...they don't know how to react to "aggression", a woman's pursuit sends them off the radar mentality, it's like mission control we're experiencing, please evacuate all personnel immediately!

 

These guys are for one shocked and unprepared, and if they are not that, they are clueless and unaware of what to say or how to behave...at best they take your interest to heart and get an ego boost out of it, but actually moving it forward would just be too quick because you ruined all the little back and forth process of them trying to be comfortable with you at their own pace.

 

These men are like children, you've got to be really careful, calm, relaxed, patient and not put too much pressure.

 

But even for your non-nerd,geek, shy...it's almost like "Whoa, what's the catch here? why is this woman so aggression, she some kind of prostitute?"...It's like that random person on the street that comes up to you randomly and start acting really nice, you know they want something....money, to sell something, to steal something, I mean something has got to be going on, it's suspicious.

 

It takes a more confident/social guy to be able to bear the brunt of that very straight-forward interaction, because this is how most women are...they like things "simple" when they're being simple, when they're chasing a guy and he's making it complicated, it's intriguing and mysterious but when she wants simple she wants simple and the answers served right to her on a golden platter. The only guy that's going to be able to manage that type of interaction is someone who is more used to it and familiar with attention, or somewhat with a social personality...which is not the type of guys the OP to me, sounds like she goes after.

 

But even then, if a woman is overly aggressive, or pursues ever so slightly, it takes away too much of the chase...that's why men generally prefer flirtation and playful behavior from women, that let him know she is interested without making the moves herself...that for the most part will throw men off their little "game" or plan, of how they engage women, men need a whole process of preparation most of the time to pursue a woman, they have a certain strategy. When you talk to men like that, they are trying to mentally and emotionally grasp and gauge what is happening first, they're not really interacting with you yet...similar to women, however women tend to be much more socially capable than men in many situations and less afraid to show vulnerability/emotions than men.

 

It really for men, just depends on the situation and how you do it, but this is a role that I believe men are naturally responsible for but obviously culture has removed the balls of many men, and anything seen as aggressive is seen as macho and overbearing these days, feminism has told men to behave like pussies and they're following suit..welcome to "equality" in the western world.

 

 

You're right, men must be too stupid and as you say, like children, to be able to handle a woman's approach.

[PrettyEmily77]

It's incredible to think that only insecure / inexperienced / shy / socially awkward men appreciate a woman initiating. Men who think that either don't know their gender very well, or they haven't experienced it (not in the right way, anyway).

 

 

It's also bizarre to think only aggressive / domineering / masculine women initiate: you have to have a certain degree of self-confidence for sure, and you have to be able to brush it off quickly if it doesn't work out but that's no different to what a guy has to do, really.

 

 

Do whatever works for you. Whatever brings two willing parties together is a good technique IMO, doesn't matter who initiated as long as it works.

 

 

I have my own personal reasons for not enjoying being approached, and unless I already know the guy very well and already am emotionally invested on some level, a direct approach, however subtle, won't work on me. So I initiate myself, and it has worked very well for me. My BF is a handsome, competent, friendly, secure and very social guy and he had no issues whatsoever with me initiating; quite the opposite, actually.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

It's incredible to think that only insecure / inexperienced / shy / socially awkward men appreciate a woman initiating. Men who think that either don't know their gender very well, or they haven't experienced it (not in the right way, anyway).

 

 

It's also bizarre to think only aggressive / domineering / masculine women initiate: you have to have a certain degree of self-confidence for sure, and you have to be able to brush it off quickly if it doesn't work out but that's no different to what a guy has to do, really.

 

 

Do whatever works for you. Whatever brings two willing parties together is a good technique IMO, doesn't matter who initiated as long as it works.

 

 

I have my own personal reasons for not enjoying being approached, and unless I already know the guy very well and already am emotionally invested on some level, a direct approach, however subtle, won't work on me. So I initiate myself, and it has worked very well for me. My BF is a handsome, competent, friendly, secure and very social guy and he had no issues whatsoever with me initiating; quite the opposite, actually.

 

So you made the first move on him first by starting a conversation with him first?

[beatcuff]

You guys are only creating barriers for Yourselves. Go after what you want.

 

this is comical. have any of you (women) actually read this thread. nearly every woman is projecting what a man thinks. you are trying to find a 'deeper meaning'. THERE IS NONE. he just was not into you. sorry it happens.

 

nearly every man in this thread has said the same thing: we are not threaten by you, in fact you are making our life easier and --- get ready for this --- so men actually appreciate a woman that says what she means.

 

ok, try this --- from now on men will no longer approach women because we have determined that a majority reject our 'advances'. so we are back to the 8th grade dance: girls on one side, boys on the other and never shall the two meet.

[Els]

this is comical. have any of you (women) actually read this thread. nearly every woman is projecting what a man thinks. you are trying to find a 'deeper meaning'. THERE IS NONE. he just was not into you. sorry it happens.

 

nearly every man in this thread has said the same thing: we are not threaten by you, in fact you are making our life easier and --- get ready for this --- so men actually appreciate a woman that says what she means.

 

Have YOU actually read this thread? At least 3 men have said that they prefer that the lady give them space to initiate (and there are likely plenty more that I missed, since I only sampled less than half the thread). I think you are suffering from Selective Reading Syndrome.

[PrettyEmily77]

So you made the first move on him first by starting a conversation with him first?

 

 

I did, yeah. I never realised how big a deal this whole initiating business was before coming on here TBH; all perfectly natural to me. Old school ideas aren't the best all the time IMO, but as I said, whatever works.

 

 

OP says she doesn't initiate, which is fair enough. I happen to think she'd do awesomely well at it (pretty face + whole demeanour would make any guy lucky) but whatever .

[RedRobin]

Meh, I take each man as an individual. I have initiated first, and have also been the one 'chased'. I personally haven't witnessed any pattern between the success of the relationship and who initiated first. Not for me at least.

 

My ex H pursued me first. He later cheated on me with a woman who likely pursued him, lol. *shrug* I haven't rejected every guy who initiated first as a result. I have been rejected by guys I initiated with. So what? That's life.

 

It is possible that people's internal bias and social conditioning perhaps project onto their partner too much. The fact that a man doesn't initiate first doesn't mean he won't later... And the fact that he does initiate first doesn't mean he won't lose interest. I prefer a balanced relationship where both are initiating and reciprocating... It doesn't matter to me who goes first...

 

I do believe it is important to flex ones style and use whatever approach works for that individual if you want the most options. I would encourage the OP to look to other reasons why that relationship didn't pan out other than who initiated first...

 

OTOH, if your emotional needs dictate that dynamic, then go ahead. I would just prefer that people don't defer to gender stereotypes when describing their preferred style... And certainly aren't claiming a guy is necessarily more interested. That hasn't been my observation at all. Lots of guys pursue women they aren't all that interested in just see if they can... So there ya go.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Meh, I take each man as an individual. I have initiated first, and have also been the one 'chased'. I personally haven't witnessed any pattern between the success of the relationship and who initiated first. Not for me at least.

 

My ex H pursued me first. He later cheated on me with a woman who likely pursued him, lol. *shrug* I haven't rejected every guy who initiated first as a result. I have been rejected by guys I initiated with. So what? That's life.

 

It is possible that people's internal bias and social conditioning perhaps project onto their partner too much. The fact that a man doesn't initiate first doesn't mean he won't later... And the fact that he does initiate first doesn't mean he won't lose interest. I prefer a balanced relationship where both are initiating and reciprocating... It doesn't matter to me who goes first...

 

I do believe it is important to flex ones style and use whatever approach works for that individual if you want the most options. I would encourage the OP to look to other reasons why that relationship didn't pan out other than who initiated first...

 

OTOH, if your emotional needs dictate that dynamic, then go ahead. I would just prefer that people don't defer to gender stereotypes when describing their preferred style... And certainly aren't claiming a guy is necessarily more interested. That hasn't been my observation at all. Lots of guys pursue women they aren't all that interested in just see if they can... So there ya go.

Yes I will admit, having to be the one to approach and break the ice first, start a conversation first all the time is more bothersome than having to be the one to ask out and plan, set up the date

[beatcuff]

Have YOU actually read this thread? At least 3 men have said that they prefer that the lady give them space to initiate

 

i apologize. i should have bold, caped and underlined "nearly" or should i post a definition.

 

since I only sampled less than half the thread.

 

SERIOUSLY? you make a statement without even reading the thread. under that theory after the last 3 days i guess it never rains in my area --- EVER. i withdraw my apology. there 3 minutes of my life i will never get back (2 cents to king of queens).

[Toodaloo]

Classic example today.

 

Him

"I never know when women are actually interested or if I should ask them out"

 

Me

"How about I wave a big flag above my head with I would like you to ask me out written on it?"

 

Him

"Yep that would do it! What are you doing next Wednesday? Fancy going out?"

 

He got to do the asking but I dropped unsubtle hints that he was not going to be turned down. Easy. In these cases it has worked.

 

Another example yesterday

 

Me

"Forgive my being bold but I would really like to meet you. Would you like to meet for coffee in the next few days?"

 

Him

*static silence*

 

And that is how it goes... I have tried it. I keep trying it, but it never, ever works when the woman asks. Ever. I have tried it more than most men ask out women... So give me a break, give Tos a break. We know. You can drop hints as subtle as a brick through a window. But to ask - no. That is the mans job.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

so most women think relationships are doomed for failure if the woman makes the first move, approaches the guy first?

[toscaroscura]

so most women think relationships are doomed for failure if the woman makes the first move, approaches the guy first?

 

It is clear you're only reading what you want to read.

 

I've said numerous times. I will approach a guy. I will introduce myself, break the ice, flirt, etc. What I WON'T do is ask him out or chase him via texting or Facebook.

[Phoe]

so most women think relationships are doomed for failure if the woman makes the first move, approaches the guy first?

 

I don't personally think that a relationship that starts that way is doomed for failure, I just think it's hard to start a relationship that way at all.

 

A large chunk of men either don't want to be asked out at all, or if they were interested in a woman, would've asked her out already anyway.

 

A good amount of the time you're either gonna turn the guy off totally, or waste your time pursuing someone who was never interested in the first place.

 

The guys who are okay with being pursued, and don't do a whole lot of it themselves are definitely out there, but the chances that a woman just so happens to be pursuing that man, instead of one of the wrong ones, is a bit low. And there's no way to know until you've already pursued.

 

I've got a 100% rejection rate and realized over the years that I really never had any business trying that. It's not for me!

 

FWIW, it's not like I was pursuing that mythical top 1% unicorn that some think are the ONLY men that a woman goes for. I was pursuing normal, everyday guys. Guys that might have been a coworker of mine, or part of my social circle. Perhaps slightly nerdy, likes playing video games. A fair few times they were shorter than me (GASP!) . They were cool people that I got along with well and enjoyed talking to, so I went for it.

 

But it just doesn't work well that way. Hey, I learned! And can say I tried something a bit unexpected

[Camaro Guy]

Most men I know don't want that though. They want the path of least resistance. They dream of meeting a cute, cool woman, hitting it off, and having it happen like freshman year of college.

 

That doesn't happen in the real world just like that. If you want a badass chick, be prepared to put the time in.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

It is clear you're only reading what you want to read.

 

I've said numerous times. I will approach a guy. I will introduce myself, break the ice, flirt, etc. What I WON'T do is ask him out or chase him via texting or Facebook.

 

well doing that is more than enough because most women will not introduce themselves to a guy first

[Shining One]

And that is how it goes... I have tried it. I keep trying it, but it never, ever works when the woman asks. Ever. I have tried it more than most men ask out women... So give me a break, give Tos a break. We know. You can drop hints as subtle as a brick through a window. But to ask - no. That is the mans job.

Neither of your sample sizes is sufficient to draw this conclusion.

 

I have almost certainly asked out more women than you have asked out men. I've also likely received far more rejections than you have. Based on your logic, my conclusion should be: A man asking out a woman never works. That is not the conclusion I come to.

 

I've been asked out by six women in my life. Four of them received positive responses. The other two were only rejected due to me being in a relationship at the time and my policy of not dating coworkers. I have a female friend who usually does the approaching and she has an 80%+ success ratio. My HR director asked her current husband (of 9 years) to dance and told him he could buy her dinner the following Friday when they first met. I could go on and on with the examples.

 

I get that it hasn't worked for you and I sympathize, because I feel that pain too. However, you shouldn't go around saying "it never works" when it's clear that isn't true.