BS shame / Revelation terror

[Seachan]

MM,

 

I wonder if your WH comes from a culture (maybe family culture...?) in which fidelity in M is viewed as "optional." Or maybe as a percentage. Like, "as long as I'm 90% faithful, that's good enough." I do come from a culture in which monogamy is not mandatory, with a more pragmatic view of marriage.

 

It's curious that your BIL married your SIL even after he knew she slept with your WH. Was he not bothered by that? And you say he and your WH are still close. He apparently did not view it as a betrayal....? Or is this assuming that your WH is telling the truth that his brother knew.

 

I could see why you would want to get to the bottom of this and hash it out with all the players, so to speak. At least you would know what you are dealing with.

[merrmeade]

MM,

 

I wonder if your WH comes from a culture (maybe family culture...?) in which fidelity in M is viewed as "optional." Or maybe as a percentage. Like, "as long as I'm 90% faithful, that's good enough." I do come from a culture in which monogamy is not mandatory, with a more pragmatic view of marriage.

 

It's curious that your BIL married your SIL even after he knew she slept with your WH. Was he not bothered by that? And you say he and your WH are still close. He apparently did not view it as a betrayal....? Or is this assuming that your WH is telling the truth that his brother knew.

 

I could see why you would want to get to the bottom of this and hash it out with all the players, so to speak. At least you would know what you are dealing with.

Interesting perspective and there may be SOMEthing to it, but I don't know that he wasn't bothered. And I've decided that from all the TTing WH has dealt me, I don't really know anything for sure. BIL certain flipped out at an ex-BIL who gave their sister an STD and divorced her to marry his pregnant mistress in S. America. Of 5 siblings, 3 sisters divorced, probably all cheated on; only the BIL and WH are still married. I heard that their mother had a lover that the father threatened. Rumors. They keep their dirty laundry well hidden.

[Spark1111]

You know, velvette, I never thought of it, but after writing the letter (below) I realized - and wrote - that considering how much deception there's been, I don't really know anything except that they had an affair. I only know what WH has told me and that is not trustworthy.

 

So I spent the day writing the letter, as you said, to get it out of my system but would be grateful for feedback. I feel a little crazy having gone this far and said the things said, imagined real people I know reading it and reacting to it, the sadness and shock it would create. So here it is:

 

MERRMEADE'S PRACTICE LETTER TO WH'S SISTERS:

Note: "X" is WH's brother; "Y" is SIL2, WH's former mistress

The truth. I am not convinced any of us will be made free from this. I apologize in advance - deeply, painfully - for the heartache I am about to cause you. I have loved you both. You are good, good people. I've known no one better. I will always love you.

1. Since May 2012, I have been struggling unsuccessfully to recover from the discovery that WH has been unfaithful, having betrayed and deceived me more than once in the course of our marriage.
   
2. June 2013, I learned from WH of a 6-mo affair he had with Y in (year). I have not seen her since then — my choice.
   
3. Nov. 2014: I learned of X's enmity toward me and wanted to make peace with Y. WH stopped me, revealing that X, in fact, knew about the affair. WH said that X told him right before his marriage to Y 20 yrs earlier. Y had wanted X to know of her affair with his brother before they married, and X wanted WH to know that she had done that.
   
4. Hearing this (realizing X's and Y's understanding of transparency; WH's lack of it), I felt further disgraced, isolated and dismissed.

I love you both and am sorry for this sad development, but I do not deserve what has been done to me. I do not deserve to be vilified by X or Y. I deserve a marriage in which I am loved, respected, protected and cherished.

 

I can't verify who knows what or who thinks what, whether X actually even knows. Unfortunately (for me), some of what WH tells me is true and some is not. This means that I do not actually know what X knows. I would like to believe that it is true that Y told X the truth and they enjoy transparency in their marriage. For one thing, I do not understand why X needs to vilify me, but it is wrong if you think I don't or shouldn't care. I very much care.

 

Perhaps in some telling of this story, blame was attributed to me for whatever reason. If so, it was adding insult to injury. Blaming the victim. (I sadly admit that going abroad was a mistake and may have created opporutunity, and, yes, I regret it; it was a big mistake. But WH does not blame me. They were his choices.)

 

Understand that WH is sorry and so full of shame that it's all he can see or understand. You may not realize how crippling shame can be. When he sees the pain, heartbreak and despair he gave me, his own shame fills the space, and he cannot enter, much less, help me repair the damage. He cannot and so waits and hopes I can do it on my own. He wants us to move forward by burying what happened and thinks that my inability to do so is a choice. It is not and I cannot.

 

I can neither ignore the truth nor bury the secret. He may take it that I have done something to him, but it is not this letter that destroyed our marriage.

 

Great letter.

 

DO not send it.

 

This is a family pattern of blame, shifting, not my fault....

 

It will not enlighten them nor make them allies. This is a FAMILY pattern of cowardice, lying by omission, he said,,she said, secret-keeping.

 

FOO explains much doesn't it? Even the truth of your writing will not change them to see your point of view.

 

It will be spun, you are crazy, etc.

 

It's easier thAt way...We will not be forced to see the error of our ways. Not going to happen.

 

Ask any BS who tried to use truth to persuade the in-laws.

 

Mer, write away. But please do not send. it will be spun to hurt you. And you do not need that now.

 

you will NOT get the response, justice, clarity you seek.

 

Think: Apples do not fall far from the tree. All will interpret it to make you the bad, insane, unstable, bad guy.

 

i know this. I lived this. Please trust me.

[Mr. Lucky]

Mr. Lucky, you may need to change your name. No suggestions but just want to say you've got my attention. I've been sitting up and blinking - a lot - since your previous post. You're seldom that strong. I appreciate the clarity of your position, each one, weighing in these last two posts. It feels like my mother's quiet, seething indignation on my behalf. (I've always wondered if she knew anything and couldn't bring herself to tell me...)

 

You've nailed it. Here's a telling anecdote in line with your observation: The story of WH's A with SIL2 (his brother's wife of 25 yrs/formerly my WH's secretary) was the hardest for him to tell me and the last. His biggest shame though probably his biggest fear of getting out to others. Anyway, when he finally eked out the first few TT drops about it, I asked him whether they had intercourse and probably other things. This was 1 yr after what I call dDay (A with SIL1) and countless ultimatums. I noticed he made a point to sit close, facing me, fix his face on mine and hold his eyes open unnaturally wide, looking straight at me (as he bold-faced lied). 6 mos later he told the truth that they had (had intercourse once - fyi: now he's consistent so it's probably correct). As usual, he divulged this in an intense, almost explosive comment. He didn't come right out but shouted, "What do you think?!" (It's always like that. 1-line confession angrily blurted after an hour of 'conversation.') So this was a clear contradiction of what he'd said 6 mos earlier, staring at me in an attempt to fool me with his - literally - wide-eyed honesty.

 

I guess fellini and I will just have to agree to disagree. Most WS have terrible problem solving skills within the framework of a relationship. A forthright person sits down with you and says "our marriage doesn't make me feel loved or special", a WS just finds someone else to do the heavy lifting.

 

For most WS, there's no "Aha!" moment, they just get caught. So it seems unrealistic at best to expect some introspective analysis and resultant change, what you often get instead is some temporary version of Scared Straight.

 

Neither easy nor sometimes immediate productive to get a reluctant spouse into IC and/or MC. But I'm still convinced it's the best chance for the light bulb to go on and for them to finally get it. Additionally, the experience has value for the BS, may be their first chance to actually be heard. JMHO...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

I posted something similar last year where I confessed feeling some shame and not wanting to go to one of my H's job events. His A was kept between us. But since his A was with a co-workers Girlfriend everyone knew the dirty details and of course it made me feel some kind of way.

Did you go? What was it like? It reminds me of finally having to be with my SIL/OW at events surrounding my brother's death. It's the only thing that could have been bigger than the anathema of being in the same room with her.

[merrmeade]

Great letter.

 

DO not send it.

 

This is a family pattern of blame, shifting, not my fault....

 

It will not enlighten them nor make them allies. This is a FAMILY pattern of cowardice, lying by omission, he said,,she said, secret-keeping.

 

FOO explains much doesn't it? Even the truth of your writing will not change them to see your point of view.

 

It will be spun, you are crazy, etc.

 

It's easier thAt way...We will not be forced to see the error of our ways. Not going to happen.

 

Ask any BS who tried to use truth to persuade the in-laws.

 

Mer, write away. But please do not send. it will be spun to hurt you. And you do not need that now.

 

you will NOT get the response, justice, clarity you seek.

 

Think: Apples do not fall far from the tree. All will interpret it to make you the bad, insane, unstable, bad guy.

 

i know this. I lived this. Please trust me.

Thank you.

[merrmeade]

-- think about your opinion on cheating and infidelity waaaaay back, when you were young and before you knew about As. what did you thought back then, did you think you'd be able to forgive?

That's a really good question. I do think about half of this actually a lot because I remember my mother talking to me about fidelity and marriage at a very young age (she was fabulously unusual t he way she got us talking about everything). I remember thinking that there's no excuse, it's simple, easy: You don't take chances, You don't do anything that could put you in harm's way. You don't open yourself up. You don't forget for one second that you're pledged to this other person and it's not that hard, not to cheat.

 

But I never considered it from the other side, what you're asking. If I asked that little girl that thought those very hard-edged, uncompromising thoughts around her mother's mores, the answer would probably have to follow the same line: No holds barred. Take no prisoners!

[velvette]

Personally I disagree with a mandate to IC. MC maybe, IC no.

 

First of all, if my WS needs IC to be "fixed", then i want her a) to make that assessment without having to be told, and b) take complete charge of finding the right IC and sticking with it. Im just not convinced you can fix someone FORCING them. I want them to want to go, not because they have a "gun" on their back.

 

Secondly. what goes on in IC stays in IC. The IC works on what is best for the client, which is not necessarily the marriage.

 

The thing is when you send someone to IC you can't exactly ask for "updates" about what was going on there. One thing is privacy, another is secrecy. IC is about privacy. Oh sure some things can and will be shared. But other things will not. And when someone has been forced into IC as a condition starts to hide things they consider, or worse, can hide behind calling them private (which makes sense) then we are back to encouraging patterns we don't want.

 

Thirdly, as a BS I want the focus to be on the visible, what goes on at home. I cannot pass off my work onto someone who is not going to be part of my decision.

 

My WW and I went to MC. She lied to the therapist about things in her affair, so I stopped MC. She decided to continue but in IC (Same therapist). At some point she stopped. She was angry at him because she was determined (as you want to hope your H is) to "fix" her marriage. But the therapist presented her with a thought that she could not accept, "maybe you shouldn't be with your husband". so she gave up. If a WS is going to pick and choose which things they agree with, which truths they tell, which stories they promote and which they hide, and you cannot be there to experience all of this, I cannot see how forcing IC is a solution to anything. MC maybe.

 

 

Some people are so severely wounded they cannot effectively participate in MC.

 

 

It would have been pointless to ask my H to do something he could not do.

 

 

He never felt as if he had a gun at his back. Saying I made it a condition was a bit of oversimplication. We had a conversation that he needed to deal with his issues for himself and that our M would not work until he did. It was ultimately his choice to go. You cant make someone go to IC.

 

 

IC doesn't have to work the way you described. I met with his therapist several times and communicated via email with him a couple of times. The therapist was clear that the goal of IC was to clear the path to reconcile our M. I gave the therapist the history of our M from my perspective. I also discussed with him how I could support my H while he was dealing with his issues. Couple of times I emailed him to tell him what he suggested to my H regarding dealing with me did not work for me and also to clarify something my H told me. If I recall, both things involved slight miscommunication/misunderstanding on either his or my H part.

 

 

We didnt operate on the premise that therapy is private. There was no blow by blow reporting, but from the first session when I asked "How did it go." my H voluntarily shared what was discussed.

 

 

Its not an approach for everyone. It worked for us.

 

 

I mentioned it to Merrmeade because her H is a serial cheater and theres no doubt in my mind that he is probably unable to be effective in MC without dealing with his own issues to some extent.

 

 

Also, like anyone cheating my H had his own laundry list of grievances re our M. It would have been nuts for me to sit through MC twist myself into a pretzel trying to address his perceived greivances when most of them went away after his IC. The rest were fairly easily resolved.

[velvette]

Great letter.

 

DO not send it.

 

This is a family pattern of blame, shifting, not my fault....

 

It will not enlighten them nor make them allies. This is a FAMILY pattern of cowardice, lying by omission, he said,,she said, secret-keeping.

 

FOO explains much doesn't it? Even the truth of your writing will not change them to see your point of view.

 

It will be spun, you are crazy, etc.

 

It's easier thAt way...We will not be forced to see the error of our ways. Not going to happen.

 

Ask any BS who tried to use truth to persuade the in-laws.

 

Mer, write away. But please do not send. it will be spun to hurt you. And you do not need that now.

 

you will NOT get the response, justice, clarity you seek.

 

Think: Apples do not fall far from the tree. All will interpret it to make you the bad, insane, unstable, bad guy.

 

i know this. I lived this. Please trust me.

 

 

I agree with Spark.

 

 

If at some point you want all these people to know, I would just give them the bare bones story that you know and let go of the outcome. Or better yet, insist your H tell them and verify that he did.

 

 

I wouldn't give them all the explanations that just give them ammunition to twist things etc. Just the facts ma'am.

 

 

Blood is almost always thicker than water no matter how messed up the blood is.

[fellini]

He never felt as if he had a gun at his back. Saying I made it a condition was a bit of oversimplication.

 

Actually what you said was and I quote, Im not paraphrasing here...

 

"I would recommend you insist he enter IC to stay married to you."

 

"For what its worth, imo, you would reap far more benefits from making IC a condition for staying married to you"

 

Im not responding to what you did or did not say or do with your husband, I'm responding to your idea that her marriage will only continue if he meets a condition. I don't think you needed to be any clearer than saying it both times.

 

You actually compared IC to remorse, and ventured to say IC would reap more benefits than any other recommendations.

 

I disagree. Even if the marriage she desires HINGES on IC, he has to want to save it, has to recognise he is a broken man, and he has to want to fix himself through IC rather than other means. Otherwise he is just tossing money at therapists, and she is getting one of her "conditions" met.

 

And of course your experiences talking about your H's IC are just that, yours. Other people have other experiences in which IC is not a space for disclosure for married couples. Hence the I in IC.

 

What if her husband does not wish to disclose the contents, general, specific or otherwise, elaborated during IC. What if he only tells her the things "she needs to hear". Seems to me she is going to be second guessing her H for months all because she insisted on a form of therapy he wasn't keen on.

 

I repeat, I never said IC wasn't what he needed. I only responded to the idea that you can put the marriage on the table as the bargaining chip to get him there. I think it's a terribly wrong idea, even from the perspective of a BS.

Edited May 31, 2015 by fellini

[velvette]

Actually what you said was and I quote, Im not paraphrasing here...

 

"I would recommend you insist he enter IC to stay married to you."

 

"For what its worth, imo, you would reap far more benefits from making IC a condition for staying married to you"

 

Im not responding to what you did or did not say or do with your husband, I'm responding to your idea that her marriage will only continue if he meets a condition. I don't think you needed to be any clearer than saying it both times.

 

You actually compared IC to remorse, and ventured to say IC would reap more benefits than any other recommendations.

 

I disagree. Even if the marriage she desires HINGES on IC, he has to want to save it, has to recognise he is a broken man, and he has to want to fix himself through IC rather than other means. Otherwise he is just tossing money at therapists, and she is getting one of her "conditions" met.

 

And of course your experiences talking about your H's IC are just that, yours. Other people have other experiences in which IC is not a space for disclosure for married couples. Hence the I in IC.

 

What if her husband does not wish to disclose the contents, general, specific or otherwise, elaborated during IC. What if he only tells her the things "she needs to hear". Seems to me she is going to be second guessing her H for months all because she insisted on a form of therapy he wasn't keen on.

 

I repeat, I never said IC wasn't what he needed. I only responded to the idea that you can put the marriage on the table as the bargaining chip to get him there. I think it's a terribly wrong idea, even from the perspective of a BS.

 

 

I have more faith in Merrmeade's ability to know if her H is making progress in IC should he go. It will be obvious if he is making progress because he and his behavior will change.

 

 

This is not an idea I pulled out of the air.

 

 

Therapists themselves recommend this in some situations. For example, where there is abuse involved. They have recognized that where there is severe unresolved dysfunction in one partner MC will not work and will in fact contribute to the abuse escalating.

 

 

Everyone has conditions in a M. I was no longer willing to live in a M where I was the secondary victim of his rapist. I don't think that's an unreasonable condition. My H was free to address that condition as I wanted him to or present another reasonable alternative. He chose to go to IC.

 

 

Should I just have let him guess at what I required to remain in the M? I don't think that would have been honest or fair on my part.

[Furious]

In a nutshell: BH was a serial cheater for decades, five affairs I know about (no ILY, some sex), two with family, one with a friend. Family knows about only one.

 

He trickle-truthed for 2 yrs, probably has toxic shame. MC went nowhere. I gave up and started IC 6 mos ago.

 

IC really got to me yesterday with these exchanges:

• I said my WH's very presence is still a trigger, day in and day out. Therapist pointed out that I am a trigger for him as well, for his shame.
  
• I said I don't see real progress in trying to be normal, whole again. I see my entire married life as a lie, feel hopeless about getting over it, hate that he buries and denies and won't look at himself. I’m Humpty Dumpty and will never get put back together again.
  
• She disagreed and said I’ve been working and processing for 2-1/2 years, but it’s been a lot. I agreed and noted that the crap with my sister-in-law (last OW) was a separate issue, which only resolved after my brother's death. She said I’m in a trap and feeling it now because I'm at the top of the ‘trap,’ wanting out.
  
• The 'trap' is my 'shame' which I keep secret: BH’s other As with family/friend
  I've told no one but her. She invited me to think - just think - about sharing it.

 

Deterrents to exposure: Imagining the future, which is terrifying on a large scale and small. We didn't have time to flesh out the scenarios in IC, discussed it a little - what he would say, what I would do, what my kids would do, what his family would do, what it would be like to see him with another companion, what growing old alone would be like. Will start sloshing through this next time.

 

If anyone listened to the recent TED Talk by Esther Perlman, she talked about 'shame' of reconciling, not wanting others to know what you're 'settling' for.

 

I am NOT ready to act on anything. This is about shame (mine), and I need to move slowly, gently. I’m not going to respond to rough-shod posts that just reinforce the finger-pointing. The topic is NOT why did I reconcile or why don’t I leave his sorry ass tomorrow. I already said that I feel like a sorry chicken, so it doesn’t help to call me a sorry chicken.

 

The topic is freeing myself of this shame and whether exposure helps or makes worse. Right now it seems like it would make it worse.

 

 

Merrmeade

 

I see that you are processing your reality and it has been a long road to the truth. I'm reminded about the saying "the truth will set you free", it's ironic that sometimes the truth is far from liberating. I see you are trying to fit the puzzle pieces together and it's one hell of a puzzle.

 

I see you as someone who has integrity and it's as if you landed on an alien planet that was your life. I understand that you see things as they are, but are perplexed by how easily those in your family circle are more about illusion than substance. I see you trying to break through the illusion and bring in the reality that you are facing. Sadly, those that prefer the status quo and rug sweep are not going to digest your truth with open arms and look into their own dysfunction. Your truth is a threat to how they've been living their lives, and it's easier to shoot the messenger than it is to change what has worked for them in how they operate.

 

Merrmeade you're a fighter, you're solid and a woman of your word. There is no shame in that. In a perfect world, your husband would be truly remorseful, and all those that were a part of his betrayal would be remorseful. I think you want to forgive but these people don't want your forgiveness, they most likely prefer you live like they do and rug sweep the elephant in the room and get on with pretending all is fine.

 

You have nothing to be ashamed of.

 

I know you're hurting, and that the past years have been traumatic for you. It's an uphill battle to be heard when those close to you would rather cover their ears.

 

It's not defeat to give up trying to set the record straight and there is no shame in that. Wasting precious days, months and years on these folks keeps you spinning your wheels and gets you nowhere.

 

How about taking a break, go somewhere you've always dreamed of. How about Merrmeade sipping a Piña Colada while getting a massage on a tropical beach.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Furious

[merrmeade]

Merrmeade

 

I see that you are processing your reality and it has been a long road to the truth. I'm reminded about the saying "the truth will set you free", it's ironic that sometimes the truth is far from liberating. I see you are trying to fit the puzzle pieces together and it's one hell of a puzzle.

 

I see you as someone who has integrity and it's as if you landed on an alien planet that was your life. I understand that you see things as they are, but are perplexed by how easily those in your family circle are more about illusion than substance. I see you trying to break through the illusion and bring in the reality that you are facing. Sadly, those that prefer the status quo and rug sweep are not going to digest your truth with open arms and look into their own dysfunction. Your truth is a threat to how they've been living their lives, and it's easier to shoot the messenger than it is to change what has worked for them in how they operate.

 

Merrmeade you're a fighter, you're solid and a woman of your word. There is no shame in that. In a perfect world, your husband would be truly remorseful, and all those that were a part of his betrayal would be remorseful. I think you want to forgive but these people don't want your forgiveness, they most likely prefer you live like they do and rug sweep the elephant in the room and get on with pretending all is fine.

 

You have nothing to be ashamed of.

 

I know you're hurting, and that the past years have been traumatic for you. It's an uphill battle to be heard when those close to you would rather cover their ears.

 

It's not defeat to give up trying to set the record straight and there is no shame in that. Wasting precious days, months and years on these folks keeps you spinning your wheels and gets you nowhere.

 

How about taking a break, go somewhere you've always dreamed of. How about Merrmeade sipping a Piña Colada while getting a massage on a tropical beach.

omg, I think I want to marry you.

 

I love this post so much. I love the analysis. Yep, me all right. And I love the Rx except I don't drink. Massages - definitely.

[merrmeade]

I have more faith in Merrmeade's ability to know if her H is making progress in IC should he go. It will be obvious if he is making progress because he and his behavior will change.

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I hold out no hopes that any threat, condition or enticement would ever get him to do this, much less make it worthwhile. But I'm purring at the vote of confidence. Yes, I would know if he's making progress and one thing that totally pisses me off in all this is even the notion that he's allowed to entertain that I am getting therapy, therefore, I "need" therapy (and he doesn't). Preposterous, insulting and evidence of his pigheadedness, isn't it?

[merrmeade]

Actually what you said was and I quote, Im not paraphrasing here...

 

"I would recommend you insist he enter IC to stay married to you."

 

"For what its worth, imo, you would reap far more benefits from making IC a condition for staying married to you"

 

Im not responding to what you did or did not say or do with your husband, I'm responding to your idea that her marriage will only continue if he meets a condition. I don't think you needed to be any clearer than saying it both times.

 

You actually compared IC to remorse, and ventured to say IC would reap more benefits than any other recommendations.

 

I disagree. Even if the marriage she desires HINGES on IC, he has to want to save it, has to recognise he is a broken man, and he has to want to fix himself through IC rather than other means. Otherwise he is just tossing money at therapists, and she is getting one of her "conditions" met.

 

And of course your experiences talking about your H's IC are just that, yours. Other people have other experiences in which IC is not a space for disclosure for married couples. Hence the I in IC.

 

What if her husband does not wish to disclose the contents, general, specific or otherwise, elaborated during IC. What if he only tells her the things "she needs to hear". Seems to me she is going to be second guessing her H for months all because she insisted on a form of therapy he wasn't keen on.

 

I repeat, I never said IC wasn't what he needed. I only responded to the idea that you can put the marriage on the table as the bargaining chip to get him there. I think it's a terribly wrong idea, even from the perspective of a BS.

All excellent analyses as usual, f. I love your clarity - always - It's all true what you say here but a moot point. He can't get his sad brain around the first premise: IC will help him.

[merrmeade]

I agree with Spark.

 

 

If at some point you want all these people to know, I would just give them the bare bones story that you know and let go of the outcome. Or better yet, insist your H tell them and verify that he did.

 

 

I wouldn't give them all the explanations that just give them ammunition to twist things etc. Just the facts ma'am.

 

 

Blood is almost always thicker than water no matter how messed up the blood is.

Yeah, so glad she stopped those particular visualizations dead with her post. THAT would have been one more layer of self-mutilation had I actually sent it. I wasn't going to - was academic as indicated, venting, journaling, listing - but turning my back on any option ever of confiding in or trusting his family to be on my side against him about anything? Very good to wake me up. It would never happen.

[AlwaysGrowing]

The underlying logic is if the person is that brocken, there isnt a marriage to fix. If the OP believes in her marriage, and believes in her wayward husbands commitment to start again, then IC is not the key ingredient. IC is not going to change this man if he doesnt want to change. That's pretty self evident.

 

If I thought that what went on in IC was fundamental to him not cheating again, I'd say she is putting all her eggs in the wrong basket. She must be seeing something NOW at home that has allowed her to believe there is hope in the marriage. This is the same place where she is going to make her final decision to stay. Im not saying he couldn't use IC, Im saying you can lead a horse to water.

 

And in this case if he is reluctant to even see that he has issues, which is what she is saying is actually the case, then sending him to IC is a waste of time and money.

 

I completely backed off of my spouse pushing her to find someone to talk about her narcissistic tendencies, to see if perhaps they are too strong, too demanding of her. I stopped thinking she had to go to IC to fix herself. I wanted her to make that entire decision herself. And when she started setting up appointments, I thought OKAY, now she has taken the initiative on her own to look into herself. This goes a lot further in rebuilding trust that the we are on the same page, than if I had said, "either you go to a therapist, or our marriage is over".

 

 

In a perfect world, a WS would get into IC on their own without any suggestion AND actually challenge themselves.

 

However, like others have pointed out..to expect someone who has lived their life in toxic ways ( which BTW...have WORKED for them)... to have the wherewithal to be self-reflective on their own generally yields the same results that have been present for years/decades.

 

Also, in your case...what would have been the outcome IF your wife never took the initiative on her own? Would it have not been the same as a spouse who makes it a condition?

 

Aren't both ways still subject to the "smell test" afterwards? One can make the appt on their own and still not be open to challenge themselves than one who had it as a condition. Some use IC to validate themselves/position...their goal never was to look critically at themselves.

 

From where I sit....both appear to have the same ultimate goal/s.

 

If a WS can not hold themselves accountable for their actions....they lose the privilege of staying in the marriage. Rightly so.

 

At the end of the day...there can be no R, healing, moving forward....for a BS...until they feel their partner is safe for them. Until a BS feels that they no longer have to play warden/gatekeeper/therapist....there is no intimate/equal relationship. It is one...where the BS has to protect themselves in every encounter/communication/financially/health wise in regard to their WS. A BS stays on the defensive...again...rightly so.

 

There will be no growth for a WS. Or minimal at best. Just enough....to get by...for now. Again...this should not be acceptable for either party. Especially for a WS. For many FWS, the growth, new coping skills, new thought processes, the character building, self respect, integrity they get from challenging themselves stays with them. Kinda like...they can't unknow what they now know...about themselves, others, relationships. They get a clarity they never knew they never had.

 

 

 

If a WS refuses to be self-reflective...either on their own or by way of a condition, the outcome/s should always be the same for a BS. Either accept the limitations of their WS (and be prepared for more of the same) or divorce.

[merrmeade]

The underlying logic is if the person is that brocken, there isnt a marriage to fix. If the OP believes in her marriage, and believes in her wayward husbands commitment to start again, then IC is not the key ingredient. IC is not going to change this man if he doesnt want to change. That's pretty self evident.

 

If I thought that what went on in IC was fundamental to him not cheating again, I'd say she is putting all her eggs in the wrong basket. She must be seeing something NOW at home that has allowed her to believe there is hope in the marriage. This is the same place where she is going to make her final decision to stay. Im not saying he couldn't use IC, Im saying you can lead a horse to water.

 

And in this case

if he is reluctant to even see that he has issues,

which is what she is saying is actually the case, then sending him to IC is a waste of time and money.

 

I completely backed off of my spouse pushing her to find someone to talk about her narcissistic tendencies, to see if perhaps they are too strong, too demanding of her. I stopped thinking she had to go to IC to fix herself. I wanted her to make that entire decision herself. And when she started setting up appointments, I thought OKAY, now she has taken the initiative on her own to look into herself. This goes a lot further in rebuilding trust that the we are on the same page, than if I had said, "either you go to a therapist, or our marriage is over".

THIS, fellini, is really one of the most helpful insights and support about the unrealistic IC option. Sorry I missed its significance first time 'round. And thanks. I tend to get distracted by the idealistic options that more normal people can consider. But our situation is so sordid with the family intermeshings and the narcissistic brain functions and I'm so late learning how to think, much less negotiate my way, in all of this - that I really, really need people coming in like this and saying: Hey, forget it. Don't spin wheels here.

[merrmeade]

In a perfect world, a WS would get into IC on their own without any suggestion AND actually challenge themselves.

 

If a WS refuses to be self-reflective...either on their own or by way of a condition, the outcome/s should always be the same for a BS. Either accept the limitations of their WS (and be prepared for more of the same) or divorce.

Yes, actually I've been saying this all along. In previous threads anyway I've said it.

[merrmeade]

Yes, actually I've been saying this all along. In previous threads anyway I've said it.

I look at this whole Catch 22 - what I just said - and all your incredibly sharp insightful posts and think: Am I wasting everyone's time? I've just come full circle back where I started. Same position. Same leftovers. Same gross choices. What's the point of talking, understanding and still I WILL BE HERE TOMORROW?

 

I'm not divorcing any time soon if ever. So moving on....

[velvette]

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I hold out no hopes that any threat, condition or enticement would ever get him to do this, much less make it worthwhile. But I'm purring at the vote of confidence. Yes, I would know if he's making progress and one thing that totally pisses me off in all this is even the notion that he's allowed to entertain that I am getting therapy, therefore, I "need" therapy (and he doesn't). Preposterous, insulting and evidence of his pigheadedness, isn't it?

 

Yes, I heard some of the same. It is infuriating and insulting. And, it involves pigheadedness.

 

 

But, more importantly, it is a way to deflect from his issues, gaslight and blame you to keep the spotlight off him. Probably most of what he does is done to protect himself from having to take a close look at old pain/wounds/trauma and how they are wrecking his life.

 

 

You imo are not dealing with a fully functioning adult. Part of him is stuck wherever his issues started. That's why he says such illogical, childish things. I used to think to myself(and say to my H sometimes)....that I felt like I was dealing with a 10 year old. Yep, that's exactly what was happening. You cant have a marriage with a child.

[merrmeade]

Yes, I heard some of the same. It is infuriating and insulting. And, it involves pigheadedness.

 

 

But, more importantly, it is a way to deflect from his issues, gaslight and blame you to keep the spotlight off him. Probably most of what he does is done to protect himself from having to take a close look at old pain/wounds/trauma and how they are wrecking his life.

 

 

You imo are not dealing with a fully functioning adult. Part of him is stuck wherever his issues started. That's why he says such illogical, childish things. I used to think to myself(and say to my H sometimes)....that I felt like I was dealing with a 10 year old. Yep, that's exactly what was happening. You cant have a marriage with a child.

You said you're still together as well, right? (misery loves company)

[velvette]

You said you're still together as well, right? (misery loves company)

 

 

We're still M. Not sure what you mean about misery loves company.

 

 

We have been reconciled for about 10 years and are very happy. We've built the kind of marriage that both of us wanted.

[merrmeade]

We're still M. Not sure what you mean about misery loves company.

 

 

We have been reconciled for about 10 years and are very happy. We've built the kind of marriage that both of us wanted.

Sorry and very glad to know I was wrong. It's encouraging. Everything you've said has been helpful.

[velvette]

Sorry and very glad to know I was wrong. It's encouraging. Everything you've said has been helpful.

 

No worries. Your thread caught my eye because their are a lot of similarities to my own situation minus the family dynamic. Although, even that I can relate a bit because most of my husbands A's were in the same place we both worked with people I knew, supervised, or was peer's with.

 

 

Your therapist said you feel trapped. I see you feeling somewhat in limbo which is of course similar but in some ways imo even a more frustrating place to be.

 

 

Also, trying to retroactively apply advice that just doesn't always work the same way or in the same order to years worth of infidelity is just not always possible or even particularly effective imo.

 

 

I think you will know what you need to do when you are ready.