BS shame / Revelation terror

[RightThere]

After spending a couple of years now on infidelity boards, I've seen a pattern that many A's involve WS or BS who were victims of childhood sexual abuse, especially those that were not exit affairs, where the WS begs to R with the BS.

 

Merrmeade, has your WS examined himself why he had his A's? What was the root cause of his compulsion?

 

Maybe once he excavates his life and understands why he did what he did, he will find tools to heal that fracture in his character, and you can both be free from the "shame". I wonder if the shame gets in the way of healing. It tells you to bury the wound, letting it fester, instead of airing it out shining light on it and cleaning it up.

 

Without sharing too much, I can confirm this is a very true pattern. Some WSs will bury that stuff deep, as though ti was a bad dream that never happened and it's something they never share with anyone.

 

And it doesn't have to been full on sexual assault. Sometime just very inappropriate things at a very young age will scar kids beyond repair.

[Noirek]

Do you feel shame that even after all he has done you still love him?

[merrmeade]

I've obviously not made it this far into the process Merrmeade, so I'm not sure I have the wisdom you seek here. But I'll venture in anyway.

 

The second potential source of shame is what Artie rightfully (???) brought up. You may be carrying shame for your perceived weakness in settling for an unremorseful serial cheater. This is just as normal as the former. Some people, like Drifter, carry that shame indefinitely. He's at 20+ years and counting. He's ashamed for not having had the personal strength to just walk away all those years ago. Is this the kind of shame you're carrying?

So is posting a thread like going to IC? If something REALLY gets to you, makes you piss-angry crazy mad, then maybe that's the festering wound that needs to be cut out? Because I was just in the middle of writing ANOTHER scathing response to Artie when I stopped to catch up with all the wonderful responses coming in.

 

Then, I read BetrayedH's long, careful response and came unglued at this paragraph citing Artie:

How could my very first LS mentor do that to me? He sure as fk doesn't have much wisdom OR sensibility, asserting that Artie "rightfully" brought up

anything

good! Etc. ...

So I'll shelve the rest of the craziness, but I'm sure of one thin:. Both of you hit the jackpot. THAT is my shame. But, DUH. I thought it would be obvious to everyone. Of course that's it, so why would you keep hitting me over the head with it? This is why I flipped out at him. And I should at you, too, bh, but I have a soft spot for you and he's, well, he's Artie Lange. I even tried to invent a hidden motive for you. Like maybe you're attempting some kind of zen-like reversal of logic here or you felt sorry for Artie's artlessness. Maybe you're tired of LS blue blood and just need more guy friends.

 

So I'm struggling with this. Do I feel sorry for myself that my Shame was exposed and continue blasting the exposers? Or do I look at it and maybe try to say here what it is. Maybe that can satisfy my need to share the secret.

 

I want to ask if it's really not obvious to everyone that it's devastating to me to point out how horrific the circumstances of my husband's infidelities were?

 

On the other hand, bh's point implies that my BH's remorse is not enough.

 

I think that's I want to spend time with. This is what I haven't done. Sort of assessed in myself whether the degree/kind of remorse FEELS appropriate to the awfulness of the betrayals. This...

[merrmeade]

Just want to say that these responses have been incredible. I'm humbled at the time and thought. I've read each one carefully and will read many again and again. It's going exactly as I'd hoped and I've gotten many angles.

 

It's also gratifying because I think this subject is timely and hasn't been vetted this way to my knowledge. Hoping the benefit will be widespread.

 

I can't respond to everyone; I just can't but would like to. I take a long time with responses and rewrite a lot. As it is, I'm on LS 24/7 and hardly sleep. I want to change my habits before H gets back. I want a life besides his affairs.

 

This is helping. All of it. THank you.

[merrmeade]

I'll share because my story follows a similar pattern.

 

5 affairs (that I know of) and I've taken my STBXW back probably 3 different times. One of the many problems is I know she feels shame, but tries to force herself not to feel it and blame shifts. It's a heavy burden to bear and many people feel they don't have the tools to fully accept their shame.

 

I also had a moving line as to what would finally make me leave her. Even after our first D-Day, she continued to cross boundaries and I kept moving the line to accommodate because I felt it was never as bad as the first betrayal, so doing it now because of something "smaller" would not be fair.

 

I felt shame as well. I didn't fully out her to everyone about all the infidelity that occurred. Partially I felt like I still had to protect her. And some of it I really didn't know why I felt as bad as I did about everything. Some people say they felt better outing everything their WS did. I just feel like I'd be stooping to their level and trying to justify myself as "holier than thou"

 

Short version of the story is you'll continue to trigger with him as long as he feels shame. The only thing that will make you feel better is you. Not anything else anyone can do.

Yes, we definitely share the same situation. This is really good. You see the extent of her brokenness and you feel compassion because she's so miserable herself with it. And exactly, it's my decency and innocence that shames him the most. For example, before he left this week (family illness) we talked some. I maybe should not have told him an example of how I just can't cross lines involving a man trying to correspond with me privately. I just couldn't do it and it wasn't because of my husband. It's because of me. So when I share that, it highlights the fact that he doesn't have inner alarms.

[66Charger]

[quote=merrmeade;

[*]She disagreed and said I’ve been working and processing for 2-1/2 years, but it’s been a lot. I agreed and noted that the crap with my sister-in-law (last OW) was a separate issue, which only resolved after my brother's death. She said I’m in a trap and feeling it now because I'm at the top of the ‘trap,’ wanting out.

[*]The 'trap' is my 'shame' which I keep secret: BH’s other As with family/friend

I've told no one but her. She invited me to think - just think - about sharing it.[/LI

 

The topic is freeing myself of this shame and whether exposure helps or makes worse. Right now it seems like it would make it worse.

 

Mermeade

There is a lot of speculation as to what your shame is about. Way wards project what they think and BS simply can't understand why you feel shame. I too was in that boat. I reread

Your initial post and it appears your shame is related to this SIL A and the non exposure. I am sure you have other emotions in regards to the other affairs.

 

If this is the case then I do not think you should expose. For me, there is only one reason why you shouldn't expose a affair and that is because the BS is dying. If you kept it in because your brother was dying, then I think you made the right decision and should feel no shame. This one, you need to give yourself a pass on. I do hope your brother passed as peacefully as possible.

 

Should you expose this to the rest of your family members? No. This one you did for your brother. Not for you. Not for your h, not for your SIL. Keep it that way.

 

Be at peace, Sister

[merrmeade]

A few times the question was asked whether he's sought help, IC to deal with his issues. No. And that's a big problem for me. He's averse to it. Obviously he's threatened by it.

 

6 mos of MC (3 mos twice, 2 different therapists, 2 years apart) was interesting. I was slumped in depression a lot those days but still would talk. The therapist would try to keep me quiet to bring him out because he literally does not talk when he's processing. The few times he actually seemed to try to be 'vulnerable' he brought himself to tears talking about how, yes, he knows how to communicate deep love but doesn't do it in words (and, therefore, we shouldn't expect him to talk). Then he gave the example of his dying sister and the way they spent their remaining time together. So the example was about someone else. It hurt that he could share real feelings about her but not me.

 

He also uses his health history - cancer, transplant, hospitalizations, ongoing loss of functions - with everyone for sympathy and as an excuse for everything that happens, all mistakes, all misjudgments, etc. And he genuinely has felt that he could die any day of the illness or complications - for 18 years. He's SURVIVED (works at home, makes a decent income) 18 years but, instead, stresses his continuing vulnerability to illness.

 

In a word, he's resistant to IC.

[merrmeade]

i didn't know my husband was a serial cheater until May 2012 when I discovered the last A with my brother's wife. I learned about all the rest since that time.

 

With one exception: Decades ago, I learned from the woman herself that she and my H had "almost screwed" once the previous year. She was shocked he hadn't told me. (His not telling me was 'shame'ful.)

 

For some reason I'll never, ever understand, this is how I took it: I went home that day after work and told him about the conversation with the woman. He said she'd come over to talk about her marital problems in the middle of one night when I was gone. He said that she was doing it to make her H jealous and that's why he stopped her.

 

Now. All I can figure is that went into shock. I didn't ask when he found out that she was doing it to make her H jealous. I didn't react to his explanation of why he stopped it. Nothing. I just accepted his explanation. Went numb for a few weeks. Then forgot about it. We never discussed it again for 30 years.

[merrmeade]

Do you feel shame that even after all he has done you still love him?

Partly. I feel shame mostly that it's just okay. It's just over. That he just can't, won't talk about it without great difficulty and shame himself. That we just are supposed to walk forward and never acknowledge it again. That is what he expects and hopes for.

[merrmeade]

I agree, although its not limited to childhood sexual abuse imo. It could be any number of other wounds or severe trauma's that are unresolved.

 

 

I actually think the same principle is at play in many cases where someone has only has one affair. Lots of affairs are about acting out/avoiding old wounds.....i.e. self medicating. Some people pick up a bottle or some other vice, some people cheat.

 

 

People like to believe that serial cheaters are different than regular cheaters. Only in degree of dysfunction imo.

 

 

Whether they cheat once or 20 times, if the reason is something broken in them you will not be able to R your marriage until they look at and deal with it.

Yes, I feel this is true for him. He's often said his mother didn't nurture or show affection to him. He was cared for by his sisters. It explains why his need for admiration, approval, performance is insatiable. He must have it, cannot resist it. I know this. I see the narcissism. He's admitted many times that the lure was the flattery. But he does not consider fixing it. Ever. He just has to avoid it. That's his approach.

[merrmeade]

Mer, what would your ideal outcome be? Simply to shake off the shame, and have everything else the same as it is now? Or is it more than that - some deeper disconnect where you feel there are "no go" areas, or dark murky secrets you can't share, or constrained intimacy where you'd like greater openness?

 

If it's the former, I'd say, work through this on your own, it's a personal rather than a social issue, no need to muddy other relationships with it. But if it's the latter, and it's already impacting other relationships, then it is a social issue. I'm not saying disclosure is necessarily the way to go, even then, but you need to recognise it as not just your (s) problem, but all your (pl) problem. Which you may hold the key to addressing - if you want to. The risks may still outweigh the (potential) benefits, and that's for you to decide ultimately, but thinking through the social dimensions might help in weighing it up.

Yes, I do keep coming back to this. I don't see what good it would do my kids to know that their dad fked both aunts. It would give me no satisfaction whatsoever. And, yes, it is utterly shameful. That is our secret and embarasses and disgusts me about him. I am ashamed for him. It is nauseating.

[Got it]

Merrmeade, if I can ask one question, do you think this shame is tied with not forgiving yourself? Do you think maybe its about forgiving yourself for things/decision you think you may have done that run counter to how you thought you would react/decide? Do you feel like you are settling?

 

If those are the issue, then I wouldn't move to expose right now. It may force confrontations you don't want to have.

 

((((((big hugs)))))))

[merrmeade]

Merrmeade, if I can ask one question, do you think this shame is tied with not forgiving yourself? Do you think maybe its about forgiving yourself for things/decision you think you may have done that run counter to how you thought you would react/decide? Do you feel like you are settling?

 

If those are the issue, then I wouldn't move to expose right now. It may force confrontations you don't want to have.

 

((((((big hugs)))))))

Yes, of course. I was completely clueless and if I'd been a normal person with normal reactions I would have done something the first time it happened. I was an idiot.

[drifter777]

Yes, of course. I was completely clueless and if I'd been a normal person with normal reactions I would have done something the first time it happened. I was an idiot.

This strikes a real chord with me. I was young & naive and, after taking her back, easily gas-lighted. I happily embraced denial because that was much better than facing the truth. The truth was that her cheating was a selfish, hurtful act and time wasn't going to heal that wound.

 

For years I live with the shame of being the kind of men who would take a cheater back. I saw myself as a weak, spineless emotional wimp. I've worked on it with my counselor enough to be a little more kind to myself but the shame will never be gone as long as I am married to her.

[elaine567]

Yes, I do keep coming back to this. I don't see what good it would do my kids to know that their dad fked both aunts. It would give me no satisfaction whatsoever. And, yes, it is utterly shameful. That is our secret and embarasses and disgusts me about him. I am ashamed for him. It is nauseating.

 

OK, not good to disclose all the gory details, but you wouldn't have to do that if you just walked away.

People split all the time, there is no need to have a list of reasons on your front door to say why, is there?

 

Seems this is just never-ending heart ache for you. He is never going to be the man that you want - there is too much water under the bridge and he is not interested in doing anything but being there and rug sweeping, it appears.

You are going to be in turmoil until the next opportunity presents itself to him, I assume, and then you will be pitched into hell.

[velvette]

A few times the question was asked whether he's sought help, IC to deal with his issues. No. And that's a big problem for me. He's averse to it. Obviously he's threatened by it.

 

6 mos of MC (3 mos twice, 2 different therapists, 2 years apart) was interesting. I was slumped in depression a lot those days but still would talk. The therapist would try to keep me quiet to bring him out because he literally does not talk when he's processing. The few times he actually seemed to try to be 'vulnerable' he brought himself to tears talking about how, yes, he knows how to communicate deep love but doesn't do it in words (and, therefore, we shouldn't expect him to talk). Then he gave the example of his dying sister and the way they spent their remaining time together. So the example was about someone else. It hurt that he could share real feelings about her but not me.

 

He also uses his health history - cancer, transplant, hospitalizations, ongoing loss of functions - with everyone for sympathy and as an excuse for everything that happens, all mistakes, all misjudgments, etc. And he genuinely has felt that he could die any day of the illness or complications - for 18 years. He's SURVIVED (works at home, makes a decent income) 18 years but, instead, stresses his continuing vulnerability to illness.

 

In a word, he's resistant to IC.

 

 

For what its worth, imo, you would reap far more benefits from making IC a condition for staying married to you than constantly attempting to obtain the perfect display of remorse from someone who is currently incapable of giving you that and may never be.

 

 

With IC, he may develop some ability to be more remorseful/empathetic and you may find it is enough.

 

 

Remorse is no guarantee he wont cheat again. Understanding his behavior may go further to achieving the type of marriage you could be happy in(even if that is not your current vision) than abject hand wringing, groveling at your feet remorse ever could.

 

 

Think about whether the remorse you seek is actually what you want or what others have told you you should want.

[velvette]

Yes, of course. I was completely clueless and if I'd been a normal person with normal reactions I would have done something the first time it happened. I was an idiot.

 

 

 

I think you are confusing normal with different lol.

 

 

Everyone is clueless about something. You are very smart, smarter than most. Doesn't mean you are smart about everything.

 

 

You don't know what you don't know. Experience is everything.

 

 

I did something similar with my H first affair. My mistake was in projecting my own values/behavior which I think were pretty normal onto him not knowing all the abnormal crap going on inside his brain.

 

 

I assumed that discovery, confrontation and a statement from him combined with no evidence to the contrary meant he stopped the A and cheating.

 

 

I think that's actually a pretty normal assumption.

 

 

Turns out I was wrong and A behavior is way more complicated than that.

 

 

But, I didn't have loveshack telling me that, or friends who had been through the same telling me that, or therapists for that matter who understood the dynamic.

 

 

You do the best you can with the resources you have. When you learn more, you can do better.

[merrmeade]

I think you are confusing normal with different lol.

 

 

Everyone is clueless about something. You are very smart, smarter than most. Doesn't mean you are smart about everything.

 

 

You don't know what you don't know. Experience is everything.

 

 

I did something similar with my H first affair. My mistake was in projecting my own values/behavior which I think were pretty normal onto him not knowing all the abnormal crap going on inside his brain.

 

 

I assumed that discovery, confrontation and a statement from him combined with no evidence to the contrary meant he stopped the A and cheating.

 

 

I think that's actually a pretty normal assumption.

 

 

Turns out I was wrong and A behavior is way more complicated than that.

 

 

But, I didn't have loveshack telling me that, or friends who had been through the same telling me that, or therapists for that matter who understood the dynamic.

 

 

You do the best you can with the resources you have. When you learn more, you can do better.

This was GREAT. It's such a funny, sad but perfect explanation of the clunky human condition. Basically our motherboards aren't always configured to read certain programs!

[Mr. Lucky]

In a word, he's resistant to IC.

 

That you would accept that position from him after all that's happened crosses the boundary from shame to martyrdom. He's also resistant to fidelity - are you equally acquiescent there?

 

You have a right to expect he's going to make a realistic effort. It's not your choices, it's your perceived powerlessness I find confusing ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

I relate to all of these.

• It's a heavy burden to bear and many people feel they don't have the tools to fully accept their shame....
  
• I felt shame as well
  
• Partially I felt like I still had to protect her.
  
• I really didn't know why I felt as bad as I did about everything.
  
• I just feel like I'd be stooping to their level [outing everything] and trying to justify myself as "holier than thou"
  
• you'll continue to trigger with him as long as he feels shame.
  
• The only thing that will make you feel better is you. Not anything else anyone can do.
  

• This strikes a real chord with me. I was young & naive and, after taking her back, easily gas-lighted.
  
• I happily embraced denial because that was much better than facing the truth. The truth was that her cheating was a selfish, hurtful act and time wasn't going to heal that wound.
  
• For years I live with the shame of being the kind of men who would take a cheater back. I saw myself as a weak, spineless emotional wimp.
  
• I've worked on it with my counselor enough to be a little more kind to myself
  
• but the shame will never be gone as long as I am married to her.
  

Random thoughts I’ve been gathering in no particular order:

~ At the moment someone realizes you know they've done something wrong, it's very uncomfortable. They're naked. You feel and see their shame. And if the wrong thing is also against you, you feel their shame and your wrong as one shared malfunction. A rip in your shared world. It's paralyzing.

 

~ I really think that part of it, even part of the shame is that it's hard to accept being better than someone else. For a long time, I couldn't even think it; it was immobilizing. Then, for a while I thought about it bitterly, e.g., at least I'll die with my integrity. As we got more into reconciliation, I got more empathy and understanding for both of us and started accepting his sort of limited human condition, that he can only improve so far and no further perhaps. It makes me sad. And embarrasses me for both of us. I’d prefer for everyone to be equals.

 

~ One thing that deep, deep down REALLY bothers me as much as anything is whether it bothers WSs that they took advantage of their spouse’s naivete and trust? Of do they mainly feel bad about the adultery? Did they feel bad at the time or did they have to think about it?

 

~ I have LOTS of questions about how cheaters think in general. Not just the “Are they broken?” question. The whole character/conscience thing going on throughout a WS’s whole life.

1. Are they wired differently or is it upbringing?
   
2. What's their relationship to their own values and sense of personal integrity BEFORE they cheated, during and after?
   
3. Did they learn how to excuse, justify, blame-shift?
   
4. Was it modeled or taught by someone?
   
5. On the other side, do you have to be taught to be accountable for how your words and actions affect other people?
   
6. Does that learning involve dialogue, awareness, conscious effort, repetition?
   
7. How does it or can it change in adults?
   
8. What's happening when they must witness pain they've caused?
   
9. What do they need to fully and healthily rectify and go forward themselves?
   
10. If acknowledging or feeling empathy for my pain, disgrace, etc. shatters my husband's shame meter, does that mean he simply cannot allow himself ever to feel or think about what I’m feeling and thinking?

[Lovebug66]

Mer,

I don't know if all this will come out right but hopefully something will make sense in it.

You are a good, strong, caring woman. It comes across in your posts. I relate with so much that you write. I too have a lot of shame from staying with my WH. I relate to not being able to forgive myself for that too. Self resentment for me is much harder to overcome...what my H does he does and I can't change that. I can change what I am doing, yet my fear wouldn't let me. It stifles who I am, it makes me so angry that I can be so strong in so many ways and so weak when it comes to him.

 

I know you don't want this to be a stay or leave discussion on this thread. I told my H I wanted a divorce last week. I saw a lawyer yesterday. There are a lot of horrible feelings that go with it, I won't lie. But it is like a million pound weight of resentment of both myself and my husband has been lifted. So much anger gone. I have no idea what the heck I'm going to do, I'm a sahm, we don't have much money or assets, I don't have a place to live...but I realized there will always be an excuse I just can't do it yet. And the longer I held on the more I hated myself. Am I crazy? Maybe!! I am kind of religious, idk if you are, but I put trust in that God is looking out for me, and so far from the support I have gotten, he is a million times over. Me being my whole self is more important than what troubles may lie ahead. I couldn't be that being with my H. Maybe you can, I know many strong people who can do that. Don't lose the beautiful woman that Merrmeade is tho. I wish you all the best and big big hugs ❤

[merrmeade]

it's not your choices, it's your perceived powerlessness i find confusing ...

 

Mr. Lucky

----me, too!

[66Charger]

For years I live with the shame of being the kind of men who would take a cheater back. I saw myself as a weak, spineless emotional wimp. I've worked on it with my counselor enough to be a little more kind to myself but the shame will never be gone as long as I am married to her.

 

Is this going to be you 2,5,10 years from now Mermeade?

 

This is what cheaters do to their "loved one". And some of them know it and still twist the knife

 

Both brothers wives? And while 1 was dying?? This story is too dark. Now I understand your shame.

Edited May 30, 2015 by 66Charger

[merrmeade]

For years I live with the shame of being the kind of men who would take a cheater back. I saw myself as a weak, spineless emotional wimp. I've worked on it with my counselor enough to be a little more kind to myself but the shame will never be gone as long as I am married to her.

 

Is this going to be you 2,5,10 years from now Mermeade?

 

This is what cheaters do to their "loved one". And some of them know it and still twist the knife

 

Both brothers wives? And while 1 was dying?? This story is too dark. Now I understand your shame.

It doesn't matter that one was before the OW met the brother (BH's)? [is my name merrmeade?]

[66Charger]

To be honest, if this was my story, my name would be Single.

I will wish you well.