Is a D-Day avoidable in a LTA?

[RoseVille]

My feelings never changed for him since then, but my God, it's just so complicated and hard. Love should not be this hard.

 

So you still love (?) him? How long ago did you end it?

[Popsicle]

So you still love (?) him? How long ago did you end it?

 

I guess I do. I ended it last year but we are still in very LC transitioning to black.

[Bittersweetie]

Rose,

 

I'm sure you are smart enough to understand this, to realize that there are two sides to every story (and marriage), and you are only hearing one side. If someone talked to me during my A, they would've heard that my H was an angry workaholic who didn't even care about me enough and let me move halfway across the country.

 

I was telling myself these things, fully believing them, to rationalize my own actions.

 

The reality? My H was working hard, trying to get promoted, so that we could have more, so that he could retire earlier. He was angry because no matter what he did, it never seemed enough for me. He "let me move" because he thought he had no choice and that was the only way we'd stay together. These are all words directly from him.

 

So please be careful. Maybe the things he says are true, or maybe he has made them become true in his head. In the end, I agree with some PP who have recommended rather than spending your mental energy on him and his issues, invest it on yourself and why you're in this situation and how you can move forward more authentically and healthily.

 

Good luck, BSW

[MissBee]

MissBee: You're right. I'm bargaining, in a way. I recognize it, too. But perhaps the "this is bad!" self-talk was self-protection, whereas what I'm thinking now is actually closer to reality? That this can and will go on fine until/unless I reach a point where it's not enough?

 

Ahh...no....lol.

 

When you were saying it was bad you had the evidence to show for it. It's not just you either, it's also his own feelings of being scared and not wanting to get caught which shows he still wants to be married and has no plans of blowing up his life, thus you can never come first if it means blowing his life up. You admit to being in love and sorry, but I find it highly unlikely that anyone who is in love can be truly satisfied with this for years on end. Maybe if you're not in love it's actually easier but if you're in love...it will only increase. That was what happened with me. It was easy to do early on as I liked him but wasn't as in love or attached, but as I got more attached and like turned to love...that's when it became extremely frustrating and when the stakes were higher.

 

What you're saying now is the bargaining talk as there is no evidence for any of this.

 

But I get it...you have tunnel vision at this point. I have a friend who has been an OW for 6 years. So far it hasn't been found out and maybe it never will be, but she isn't happy. But these types of conversations are very familiar because I have them in real life with her every few months. Most of us as her friends are over it at this point as we've had VIP tickets to the roller coaster, we've all given sage advice, she agrees but continues with the situation. We still love her but come on.. when she's on an up, everything is perfect, this is great, he's wonderful, then reality hits, it's not great, she wants more, he's never leaving...fast forward next week, "My mom's friend was an OW for 25 years and they had a child...maybe Bill can get me pregnant too, that's all I want..." fast forward next month "He's pulling away..." next week "I love him so much" I mean...it's freakin' tiring! But at this point, we're like *shrug* she's brilliant but when it comes on to this situation it's like a cat trapped in a paper bag. I sense this is where this is going. You're only a year in, it's still potentially redeemable...even for my friend we all hope she wises up one day but there comes a point when the person just doesn't want to listen to reason and will keep on keeping on and you have to let them do them and let the chips fall where they may.

 

You're gonna do what you feel compelled to do Rose, rightly or wrongly, and I hope it works for you!

Edited May 30, 2015 by MissBee

[Babs22]

Unless I or MM end it for real and completely (and at this point I don't see that happening), I feel like this A could go on for forever. He's far too careful to ever get caught; I'm certain he never will (and I will never tell).

 

Did any of you OW/OM have a LTA that never got caught?

 

RoseVille, I too have wondered this same thing. I am a MW, having an A with a MM, so slightly different from yours, but this thought has crossed my mind. We are at 2.5 years and thankfully have not been found out. I sometimes wonder, if nothing is found out will we still be in this A 10 years from now?

 

You said this on another post....."I think our A is actually making his M tolerable. He's getting all of his emotional and sexual needs met through me, and has the security and family life at home.

 

Whether the A ends or not, I don't think he'll ever leave his M while his kids are still at home."

 

I also feel like our A has made my MM's marriage tolerable. He is getting his sexual and emotional needs met by me and he seems happy at home. My MM does not have kids, but he does not want to disappoint his mom or family, does not want to lose their mutual friends, and doesn't want the stigma of a divorced man. He was divorced once before, and it sounds bad, like he lost all his friends, etc. Possibly my MM still loves his wife and loves me too because we provide him different things. I don't know. I do know he must be happy in his day to day world. Yes, there are days she drives him crazy, but he is willing to put up with it. It took a while for me to figure out that my MM is probably never going to leave his W. He is comfortable and, even without kids, has a lot to lose.

 

I do have kids, one is 20 and the other 17. I was prepared to leave my H, when my 17 was diagnosed bipolar, and suffers from massive depression. I did not leave because I think right now my son needs both his dad and I close by in the home. He wants a relationship so bad with his dad, and if we move out, it will never happen. I do not believe my H will make time for him. Anyways, so my M kinda sucks and I am not very happy in it while MM's M seems pretty good. Currently, I, like you, do not want the A to end. I love him. Will I always feel that way, who knows? Are there days when I am tired of only having a small piece of my MM and it has to be when he has time, absolutely!

[WasOtherWoman]

That made me smile.

 

 

I think our A is actually making his M tolerable. He's getting all of his emotional and sexual needs met through me, and has the security and family life at home.

 

Whether the A ends or not, I don't think he'll ever leave his M while his kids are still at home.

 

The above really scares me, for you. I know that when my MM and I were in our affair, there was no FREAKING way that I was going to allow myself to be a band aid for his crappy marriage. I am not sure what exactly your goals are for this relationship... I was playing for keeps in mine. I went out of my way to make things as unpleasant as possible for him sometimes, in the areas of having both a wife and a mistress, to insure that having me around did not make his marriage better.

 

What the heck is in this for you if this man is simply using you to make his marriage bearable?

[RoseVille]

Is this love you have for him reciprocated though?

 

I meant to respond to this earlier.

 

I don't know. I don't know that he even knows how I really feel, about him, about wanting him to myself... I haven't told him. I've never used the L word with him, just told him that I care a great deal about him, and he's reciprocated that. But I don't think he knows the depth of my feelings, unless he's a mind reader. I've only volunteered the depth of my feelings (that is, prior to the guy telling me first) one time with someone else, and it didn't turn out so well. So I have a tendency to hold back on that.

 

The feelings and connection are deepening, for both of us, that I'm sure of. But how deep his go compared to mine, I really don't know.

[RoseVille]

I went out of my way to make things as unpleasant as possible for him sometimes, in the areas of having both a wife and a mistress, to insure that having me around did not make his marriage better.

 

I'm curious how that's even possible, to make his life unpleasant in having a W and an OW? If you make his life unpleasant, wouldn't he just dump you? He can, and easily, since he's not married to you...?

[viciouscircle]

I'm curious how that's even possible, to make his life unpleasant in having a W and an OW? If you make his life unpleasant, wouldn't he just dump you? He can, and easily, since he's not married to you...?

 

Isn't the real question why a person continue to make it easy? If all you want to be is a "convenience package" and accept what you get that's fine I guess.

 

People generally want more and as time goes on expect more. Being the om/ow yes a person can dump you easily etc but then its not all about the wants/needs of the affair partner. Your wants and feelings need to take center stage at some point unless all you want is a part-time not really committed relationship.

[RoseVille]

Isn't the real question why a person continue to make it easy?

 

My real question is what it is. I don't understand the point of *any* relationship where one party makes it their mission for the other person in the relationship to find it unpleasant.

 

How does an OW even go about making her relationship with an MM unpleasant such that he still stays in it??

[minimariah]

I'm curious how that's even possible, to make his life unpleasant in having a W and an OW? If you make his life unpleasant, wouldn't he just dump you? He can, and easily, since he's not married to you...?

 

not if he cares for you and if he indeed plans to be out in the open with you - making him uncomfortable will only force him to prioritize & do action to get what he REALLY wants to in life.

[OldRover]

I meant to respond to this earlier.

 

I don't know. I don't know that he even knows how I really feel, about him, about wanting him to myself... I haven't told him. I've never used the L word with him, just told him that I care a great deal about him, and he's reciprocated that. But I don't think he knows the depth of my feelings, unless he's a mind reader. I've only volunteered the depth of my feelings (that is, prior to the guy telling me first) one time with someone else, and it didn't turn out so well. So I have a tendency to hold back on that.

 

The feelings and connection are deepening, for both of us, that I'm sure of. But how deep his go compared to mine, I really don't know.

 

Roseville.....

 

Maybe I missed something but thought you were BOTH in love with each other and had made some reasonable commitments. Also, did you say that this relationship is less than a year?

 

I could argue to establish what you feel about each other, clearly, and what your mutual goals are. And figure out what works and does not work for you. There's nothing simple about an affair, and there's the potential for a lot of conflict and heartache. However, some just work out fine.... for years and years, because there's no solution to a lousy marriage and the MM is very happy fulfilling his relationship outside the marriage and his AP is willing to work with the restrictions to make it work.

 

Affairs have a level of real excitement.... secreacy, meeting in strange places and at odd times and the risks can make it very exciting for some. For others, it's just like another romance, with another woman, just with the awkwardness that it just can't be 100% all the time. Each has to decide what works for them and accept the risks.

 

So, hope you can decide what works for you (and looks like you're satisfied at this point. Best of success to you. Hope whatever direction you go, it works for you.

[Adoraxx]

Dear @Roseville

 

Doesn't this bother you at all?

 

I think our A is actually making his M tolerable. He's getting all of his emotional and sexual needs met through me, and has the security and family life at home.

 

I always felt that way too. Like he's getting ALL of his needs met because now he has two women just for himself. I couldn't take that anymore. Its like he had it all, and all I got were a few crumbs here and there.

[OldRover]

Dear @Roseville

 

Doesn't this bother you at all?

 

 

 

I always felt that way too. Like he's getting ALL of his needs met because now he has two women just for himself. I couldn't take that anymore. Its like he had it all, and all I got were a few crumbs here and there.

 

Well, you could look at it a different way. She is getting the pleasant things that she wants, affection, love, sex...... and not getting the responsibilities of maintaining a home, chores, etc. Not exactly what would be considered crumbs.....

 

However, we know there's more risk in this than have two people with all of their needs (and responsibilities) met with only each other. It's unfortunate that is often not the case.

[Adoraxx]

Well, you could look at it a different way. She is getting the pleasant things that she wants, affection, love, sex...... and not getting the responsibilities of maintaining a home, chores, etc. Not exactly what would be considered crumbs.....

 

However, we know there's more risk in this than have two people with all of their needs (and responsibilities) met with only each other. It's unfortunate that is often not the case.

 

Yes you're right, Old Rover. After I wrote what I wrote, I thought to myself that it really does depend on whether your MM meets your needs as well (or not). In my case it was all about his needs and not exactly about both of our needs

[Babs22]

My real question is what it is. I don't understand the point of *any* relationship where one party makes it their mission for the other person in the relationship to find it unpleasant.

 

How does an OW even go about making her relationship with an MM unpleasant such that he still stays in it??

 

I was wondering the same thing RoseVille. Only I was wondering why, if you actually care for someone, you would want to make it your mission to make their life unpleasant? I don't want my MMs life to become a mess because of me. I would never want him to be hurt or unhappy because of me. I don't think his goal in starting an A with me was for his married life to become more bearable. Our relationship started because of feelings we had for each other. Over time, I could see that the result was he is much more happy, and yes the things about his M that were an issue (limited sex and lack of emotional support) no longer bothered him because his needs have now been met. Unfortunately, the A did not have the same effect on my M.

[RoseVille]

I was wondering the same thing RoseVille. Only I was wondering why, if you actually care for someone, you would want to make it your mission to make their life unpleasant? I don't want my MMs life to become a mess because of me. I would never want him to be hurt or unhappy because of me. I don't think his goal in starting an A with me was for his married life to become more bearable. Our relationship started because of feelings we had for each other. Over time, I could see that the result was he is much more happy, and yes the things about his M that were an issue (limited sex and lack of emotional support) no longer bothered him because his needs have now been met. Unfortunately, the A did not have the same effect on my M.

 

When the PA started, it was for the mutual goal of having our respective sexual needs met. I was okay with that, it's what I signed up for. In that way, we were both in the A to make our own, separate home lives more tolerable. His as a MM and mine as a single, both with high sex drives and the desire for the type of sex we're both into with someone we care about (neither one of us are ONS types).

 

Then I developed stronger feelings than those of just friendship, as did he. He's also acknowledged that he's found it a lot more difficult to compartmentalize than he originally expected.

Edited May 31, 2015 by RoseVille

[MissBee]

I'm curious how that's even possible, to make his life unpleasant in having a W and an OW? If you make his life unpleasant, wouldn't he just dump you? He can, and easily, since he's not married to you...?

 

And that may ultimately be the point.

 

It depends on what the OW wants right? As well as the MM.

 

If you just want to be with him at all cost then you have an incentive not to rock the boat, not to stress him out, not to be too demanding or unpleasant etc because he can just dump you and go back to his wife. I think many OW play this role where they fully immerse themselves in being his escape and downplay their own demands, needs, wishes, etc...because if they do MM will be like screw it, I don't need this. So in order to keep him they may consciously or subconsciously play into the role of see look...I'm fun, sexy, I don't nag, I'm your escape and am giving you a reason to want to come back to me...no hard questions here...just good times.

 

However, if an OW wants more than just being an OW then having a "real relationship" is where you also have your needs met not just one person who gets to have their own way all the time. It's where you have demands, concerns etc and where sometimes it's not pleasant but if the other person values you, they suck it up and address your needs. It seems conflict avoidant MM are terrible at this which is why they are even in an affair to begin with. Many conflict-avoidant MM are emotionally immature and don't realize that relationships are work, and their wives may have legitimate issues with them, ways they are also not matching up etc that need to be worked on. I had an ex like this. None of his relationships could last beyond the honeymoon because he didn't like criticism, didn't like to work on relationships and would immediately jump ship for the next new romance that was easy, then it got old and problems came up as they will in any real relationship, then it was adios. I think escapist MM are like this...everything is fine so long as there is no demand, criticism, conflict or anything...but that isn't life. Friendships, romantic relationships, business, all of them will have tensions that need to be worked out and I get the feeling some MM who are seeking an escape have a twisted idea about this and only enjoy any relationship so long as they never have to look at themselves, compromise or deal with issues, so once OW shows herself to be a real person, with wishes, desires, demands...adios.

 

I think sometimes people talk about good OW vs. bad OW in that light. If I can find the Youtube clip of this I'll post it but there was actually a Youtube clip of some guys breaking down "good side chick vs bad side chick", it was a joke but there was a level of truth in it where if a man is married, intends to stay so but wants a woman on the side, the best candidates are women who won't be super demanding, will be all about the good times, no nagging, no nothing, won't tell his wife/main woman etc while ones who want more, will naturally have demands, complaints etc if they aren't getting what they want and that's more of a headache to the MM looking for an escape.

 

I think what WasOtherWoman was saying was that she wasn't willing to be OW forever and wasn't going to allow MM to just use her as a pleasant, sexy, compliant escape from reality. So she was going to have a voice, have demands, make him realize that it's not gonna be wife over here and pleasant escape there...I'm also a real person, with real desires, I want a real relationship. If MM flees from that...then if you actually wanted a relationship it works for you as you now know he is unwilling. If you want MM at all cost then it's not a good strategy as he'll leave if he's just looking for an escape. So it really depends on what the particular OW wants, is willing to do and what the Mm ultimately wants as well. It seems many who end up with MM in the end aren't of the "good OW" variety but it also stands to reason that their MM might also have been looking for real solutions and a real relationship with them and not just an escape so was willing to go the extra mile.

Edited May 31, 2015 by MissBee

[WasOtherWoman]

I'm curious how that's even possible, to make his life unpleasant in having a W and an OW? If you make his life unpleasant, wouldn't he just dump you? He can, and easily, since he's not married to you...?

 

Oh Lord, he will tell you that I was a very unpleasant mistress when it came to matters of him continuing to be married. Remember though, as I said, I was playing for keeps here. I was quite pleasant in all other aspects of our life.

 

How did I make his life unpleasant? I never let him get into that comfortable position where a man has two women in his life, caring about him, etc. If he ever tried to do anything to take care of me, I stopped him, reminding him that he had a wife to take care of and as long as he was doing THAT, i would continue to take care of myself.

 

I think that a tactical mistake OWs make is allowing their MM to get comfortable in his position as an MM. I decided early on that that was not going to happen in my relationship, because in my opinion, he needed to make a choice, quickly. Stay married or have me, but there was no way in hell he was doing both. (I know that all OW's do not feel that way, but I sure the heck did).

 

So - hence the unpleasantness. Sure, he was welcome to dump me at any time, he was not married to me. But since I was not willing to continue to be an OW for any length of time, that would have been fine with me.

 

In my very humble opinion, any OW who is not happy being one, needs to not let her MM get comfortable with her in that position.

[WasOtherWoman]

 

I think what WasOtherWoman was saying was that she wasn't willing to be OW forever and wasn't going to allow MM to just use her as a pleasant, sexy, compliant escape from reality. So she was going to have a voice, have demands, make him realize that it's not gonna be wife over here and pleasant escape there...I'm also a real person, with real desires, I want a real relationship. If MM flees from that...then if you actually wanted a relationship it works for you as you now know he is unwilling. If you want MM at all cost then it's not a good strategy as he'll leave if he's just looking for an escape. So it really depends on what the particular OW wants, is willing to do and what the Mm ultimately wants as well. It seems many who end up with MM in the end aren't of the "good OW" variety but it also stands to reason that their MM might also have been looking for real solutions and a real relationship with them and not just an escape so was willing to go the extra mile.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. I didn't want him at all costs. He needed to want ME at all costs.

 

Rose - it was not my desire to make my MM's life in general unpleasant, just the situation we were in.

[MissBee]

Oh Lord, he will tell you that I was a very unpleasant mistress when it came to matters of him continuing to be married. Remember though, as I said, I was playing for keeps here. I was quite pleasant in all other aspects of our life.

 

How did I make his life unpleasant? I never let him get into that comfortable position where a man has two women in his life, caring about him, etc. If he ever tried to do anything to take care of me, I stopped him, reminding him that he had a wife to take care of and as long as he was doing THAT, i would continue to take care of myself.

 

I think that a tactical mistake OWs make is allowing their MM to get comfortable in his position as an MM. I decided early on that that was not going to happen in my relationship, because in my opinion, he needed to make a choice, quickly. Stay married or have me, but there was no way in hell he was doing both. (I know that all OW's do not feel that way, but I sure the heck did).

 

So - hence the unpleasantness. Sure, he was welcome to dump me at any time, he was not married to me. But since I was not willing to continue to be an OW for any length of time, that would have been fine with me.

In my very humble opinion, any OW who is not happy being one, needs to not let her MM get comfortable with her in that position.

 

I think this is an excellent point and something I forgot to mention.

 

They've been threads here before on "Happy OW" and I've been adamant that I was never a happy OW. In that, I was not cut out for a years long affair and wasn't happy with the status quo. I never wanted an affair. I wanted him and the affair was too much for me. Therefore, I wasn't just all smiles, sex, pleasantness, oh I don't want to add to your stress, let me coddle you and the like. Granted, in our case it wasn't ever a set up between mean wife and me over here, so that made a difference because in my mind and how it was set up, he was my boyfriend and like any boyfriend he needed to do things for me to make me happy and if not...guess it's not gonna work.

 

I also wanted it to either be a real relationship or nothing. And as I mentioned, I think that's what the choice ultimately is and that will determine how you subsequently act. I'm sure the A could have gone on indefinitely had I been less critical, more compliant, more "pleasant" and allowed him to feel like a King who could have it ALL. Sorry, I didn't though. I also did stuff like that, where I was like "Sorry, you can do that for your gf" or I also went on other dates and made it clear that I wasn't going to dedicate myself to him body and soul if he was still with someone else. He HATED this, it aggravated him, frustrated him, he was VERY jealous, we fought a lot over these things...I didn't care though. It was true. If you want ALL the benefits of a boyfriend then you have to be my boyfriend and only mine, until then...you're gonna find that you can't have everything your way and if that doesn't work for you or causes you stress...goodbye. And part ways we eventually did upon his admittance later that he couldn't give me what I wanted. However, some years later we did try again when he was single.

Edited May 31, 2015 by MissBee

[WasOtherWoman]

..... Therefore, I wasn't just all smiles, sex, pleasantness, oh I don't want to add to your stress, let me coddle you and the like.

 

Amen, sister. LOL, I was like "oh I will SHOW YOU stress if you think you are going to keep me in some nice little compartment in your life"

[minimariah]

Oh Lord, he will tell you that I was a very unpleasant mistress when it came to matters of him continuing to be married. Remember though, as I said, I was playing for keeps here. I was quite pleasant in all other aspects of our life.

 

How did I make his life unpleasant? I never let him get into that comfortable position where a man has two women in his life, caring about him, etc. If he ever tried to do anything to take care of me, I stopped him, reminding him that he had a wife to take care of and as long as he was doing THAT, i would continue to take care of myself.

 

I think that a tactical mistake OWs make is allowing their MM to get comfortable in his position as an MM. I decided early on that that was not going to happen in my relationship, because in my opinion, he needed to make a choice, quickly. Stay married or have me, but there was no way in hell he was doing both. (I know that all OW's do not feel that way, but I sure the heck did).

 

So - hence the unpleasantness. Sure, he was welcome to dump me at any time, he was not married to me. But since I was not willing to continue to be an OW for any length of time, that would have been fine with me.

 

In my very humble opinion, any OW who is not happy being one, needs to not let her MM get comfortable with her in that position.

 

excellent post!

 

i agree -- if you let your man become comfortable with the situation you only see as temporary, you're doomed.

[RoseVille]

I still don't understand about making it "unpleasant." Maybe it's your choice of words, but I still don't understand even HOW you went out of your way to make it unpleasant for him.

 

I have needs beyond just sex (what it started as), and I've articulated them and he's addressed and met them.

 

I just don't have the "need" that he leave his W... yet.

[RoseVille]

excellent post!

 

i agree -- if you let your man become comfortable with the situation you only see as temporary, you're doomed.

 

It could go on indefinitely, but we both have talked about how this can't last forever. It was that discussion that originally made him want to end it and work on the M, to figure things out one way or the other. He was uncomfortable with the double life, didn't want to get caught, wanted any outcome to be independent of any outing of he and I.

 

So in that way, yes, I think we both see this as temporary. It'll end one way or another.