Is a D-Day avoidable in a LTA?

[starglider]

So what is the update on your status with him? Are you engaged in a PA again? Or has it transitioned to an EA?

 

In either case, your addiction to him is still apparent - a state of powerlessness and pain.

 

I hope this transitions to a journey of self-discovery for you.

[OldRover]

Roseville,

 

I won't lecture you or tell you what to do. Your relationship, as you expressed, is fine now and for the foreseeable future. If it keeps you happy and satisfied, keep going. You know the risks, goods and bads. And right now the goods are better than the bads for you.

 

There are many men/woman that have similar relationships and are happy with them.

 

I have a good friend that's had his OW for years, and his family knows about it. His wife accepts it as the alternative for her is worse. His OW is ~300 miles away and he'd commute there with his plane. He just left his OW recently.... not because he wasn't satisfied with the relationship, but pushing 90, flying and traveling became difficult and he was just winding down.

[goodgirlgonebad15]

Hi Rose,

 

I found the below quote from your very first thread...

 

" He said he was getting nervous about getting sloppy, slipping up, being exposed. He almost texted her explicit texts meant for me, and was having trouble just being with her while thinking of me. He said he had so much on the line, and was getting scared. "

 

I would like to know if this is still a fear for him or you? I think the longer these things go on, people get comfy and when we get comfy, we get sloppy...

 

Also the tiniest things can tip it off, things you sometimes don't even think about. I have a friend who caught her BF cheating in the most simple way, it HAD to be a sign or meant to be discovered or somthing

 

She was looking up a clothing website online and the name of the clothing store started with the exact same name of a dating site her BF was using to cheat on her...She was completely shocked, had no idea...all she was doing was shopping online for clothes...she almost ignored but something told her "look at that some more"...

 

You never know for sure and it can be the dumbest thing that will catch you slipping.

[Got it]

Love is no excuse to be a side chick who is hidden. Don't you want to meet his family and be a part of his real life? Don't you want a man who won't hide you?

 

Ugh, I get so tired of this assumed perception.

 

Rose, yes you could have an affair with him for decades. It does happen and you could be happy the whole time. Or not. That is going to just take time to tell. But yes there are some people who are more than happy to have an affair as their primary romantic life and do not see that negatives really outweigh the positives. And there are negatives in all relationships, lest people forget that.

 

As the OW I think it comes down to you and what you want. He will be there as this more than works for him, so you decide when this does and when it doesn't.

 

And negating the discover, well the more interactions statistically a higher chance of discovery; that is just simple stats. But it can be avoided to some degree.

 

There is no way to guarantee not being discovered outside of ending it (and even that still has a chance of being discovered).

 

What is it that YOU want? And if you see a pattern of being with unavailable men, maybe take some time in therapy to discover why, are you happy with it, and would you want to change it?

 

[Grapesofwrath]

 

Rose, yes you could have an affair with him for decades. It does happen and you could be happy the whole time. Or not. That is going to just take time to tell. But yes there are some people who are more than happy to have an affair as their primary romantic life and do not see that negatives really outweigh the positives. And there are negatives in all relationships, lest people forget that.

 

As the OW I think it comes down to you and what you want. He will be there as this more than works for him, so you decide when this does and when it doesn't.

 

And negating the discover, well the more interactions statistically a higher chance of discovery; that is just simple stats. But it can be avoided to some degree.

 

There is no way to guarantee not being discovered outside of ending it (and even that still has a chance of being discovered).

 

What is it that YOU want? And if you see a pattern of being with unavailable men, maybe take some time in therapy to discover why, are you happy with it, and would you want to change it?

 

 

 

I agree with Got It that these are the questions to ask yourself. If you are consistently drawn to unavailable men, then it's worthwhile to figure out why, and then decide if you want to change that pattern.

 

As for LTA's without D-day...My grandfather (married the entire time) had an A with a MOW for 25 years. 25 years. This was in the 1940s, 1950s and some of the 1960s. No cell phones. No answering machines. No computers. How they did it? The mind boggles, but they did. Obviously, people knew about it (which is how I know about it). It ended when my grandparents moved to Florida.

 

I don't think there was ever a "D-day" per se. It was more like they were spotted around town together, and people figured it out, including my grandmother. She chose to stay with him. Those were different times and her reasons were her reasons.

[Wifeinpain]

I cannot imagine how she'd ever find out. All of our communication is in person, personal iMessage that he immediate deletes, and phone calls on our work phones. Other than pics he keeps on a locked down app on his phone, there's no evidence for her to ever find. Our encounters happen during his general/vague work hours, either at work or at my home that is nearby.

 

Unless he tells her outright, she'll never know. And he has no motivation to do that.

 

My tolerance level changes with the week. I realize that next week I'll probably be in a "He sucks!" mood.

 

 

My husband was that careful, too, until one day he got sloppy and forgot to delete something.

[sandylee1]

They're not nagging doubts. But I am concerned about the outcome should there ever be a D-Day. I don't want there to be one, I don't want the A to end insofar as it would mean not seeing him anymore.

 

I didn't realise you were back in the affair Rose.

 

Of course several affairs go undetected. I heard of one that lasted 42 years and was only discovered when the man died.

 

The dday outcomes are numerous. You probably don't have as much to loose as he does, but depending on his wife and any revenge desires she has, things could get ugly.

 

I can see from your threads nothing you hear will make you stop the affair.

 

Is this love you have for him reciprocated though?

[minime13]

Because I'm in love with him, that's why.

 

 

I am fine with the way things are right now. It'll only become an issue if someday I reach a point where not having more is unacceptable.

 

These two posts seem very contradictory.

 

You're in love with him, but you're fine with things never changing and the two of you never really having a life together?

 

I find that doubtful.

 

I would think that D-Day is something a person involved in an affair with a married person would want to happen. Otherwise, I don't really understand the point of getting involved with a married person.

Edited May 29, 2015 by minime13

[bentleychic]

That's my only real concern. Every relationship I've been in with an unavailable man (and other than this, I mean him to be emotionally or geographically unavailable), it's done a number on me. Yet, they get easier and easier to get over.

 

I think that's the heart of it, really. I'm convinced, based on experience, that there isn't a better option out there for me than what's before me right now, if I want a connection and intimacy in my life. I've tried pretty hard, can't find it.

Our most recent dday came in the way of someone anonymously contacting his W and telling her. So don't be too sure and don't get too comfy thinking it's unlikely. Anything could tip them off. Our first dday was b/c she called while he was with me and he didn't answer for a while b/c his phone was in the vehicle. She got suspicious and starting sniffing around...

 

Just be careful.

[MuddyFootprints]

If there are enough red flags and gas lighting, a PI could also be consulted.

 

Don't think it doesn't happen.

[minnesotagirl]

I cannot imagine how she'd ever find out. All of our communication is in person, personal iMessage that he immediate deletes, and phone calls on our work phones. Other than pics he keeps on a locked down app on his phone, there's no evidence for her to ever find. Our encounters happen during his general/vague work hours, either at work or at my home that is nearby.

 

Unless he tells her outright, she'll never know. And he has no motivation to do that.

 

 

That's exactly how we were - iMessages, secret locked pic app, work calls, encounters like yours too. My MM was soooo careful. Deleted everything. Even confirmed deletions with me. Never did we send a text at the wrong time, we knew all the rules. Hey, we were NOT gonna be dumb and get caught. We got away with it for a long time too. Until our ship came in and we had a D-Day. Because the thing is, people aren't perfect. You never think it'll be your turn till it is.

 

Your worst enemy right now is the emotional rollercoaster you are on. The push-pull phase of the affair makes the APs less aware of their outward actions and this is when a lot of people get caught. BSs get suspicious. APs drop the ball. Their emotions show. They get sloppy about digital clean up. Be careful. This is the normal way affairs progress, but it's also the stage before D-Day.

[MissBee]

That's exactly how we were - iMessages, secret locked pic app, work calls, encounters like yours too. My MM was soooo careful. Deleted everything. Even confirmed deletions with me. Never did we send a text at the wrong time, we knew all the rules. Hey, we were NOT gonna be dumb and get caught. We got away with it for a long time too. Until our ship came in and we had a D-Day. Because the thing is, people aren't perfect. You never think it'll be your turn till it is.

 

Your worst enemy right now is the emotional rollercoaster you are on. The push-pull phase of the affair makes the APs less aware of their outward actions and this is when a lot of people get caught. BSs get suspicious. APs drop the ball. Their emotions show. They get sloppy about digital clean up. Be careful. This is the normal way affairs progress, but it's also the stage before D-Day.

 

Great points!

 

Given this as well:

 

He said he was getting nervous about getting sloppy, slipping up, being exposed. He almost texted her explicit texts meant for me, and was having trouble just being with her while thinking of me. He said he had so much on the line, and was getting scared.

 

MM is ALREADY being sloppy you admit, he's already slipping up, he almost texted his wife stuff meant for you, he's getting scared...you went from this to oh no, we're so careful I am sure we will never be found out. Huh?!

 

Roseville, like I said in an earlier post, I feel like having been there I recognize you're in the bargaining stage where it's like you forget everything you said before and all the reasons it came to an end or NC and rewrite history to say well no, it wasn't so bad, we won't get caught, none of this is a problem, all because of the emotional rollercoaster. When we get into bargaining mode we lose common sense, lose sight of the facts, get a little delusional or plain rewrite the facts we previously stated to make them more promising than the reality. You already said MM was slipping up hence the reason he wanted to stop. If he is slipping up already, this only statistically increases the longer it goes on. In this thread you've painted it as fail-safe and you all have everything tightly coordinated, yet initially this wasn't the picture and was the exact opposite, where contrary to having it all figured out and fail-safe, he already almost caused a dday!

 

I'm not trying to persecute you btw, I hope you really understand that, I'm just showing you that you're in a phase many of us have experienced where we miss the person and want them so badly that we're willing to ignore all that happened before, rewrite the facts and instead keep looking for hope that it can all work out seamlessly and that the A can go on forever with no dday. This is one of the mind tricks I mentioned earlier in the thread that I said will occur to you. I've been there Roseville, trust me. You will tell yourself all kind of contradictory things that make no sense because of the emotional rollercoaster. The more you know the more you can empower yourself like I said and realize this is a phase of thinking in the process and one that if you ride out will pass. No one can stop you from re-entering the A if you're hellbent but it would be useful to take the advice of others especially those still in affairs who are also saying that there is no fail-safe and thinking there is will be a downfall...

Edited May 30, 2015 by MissBee

[Mascara]

If, as you say, you only have "encounters" during his work hours, you'll possibly go a long time without detection.

 

Not much of a life or relationship though, where you can't do anything outside of that. For as long as you're happy to fit in with his schedule and he doesn't have to make any effort or excuses to spend time with you, it'll probably go undetected.

[Popsicle]

Unless I or MM end it for real and completely (and at this point I don't see that happening), I feel like this A could go on for forever. He's far too careful to ever get caught; I'm certain he never will (and I will never tell).

 

Did any of you OW/OM have a LTA that never got caught?

 

Yep, my xMM is too careful to ever get caught too, and I'll never tell either. I'm sure an A with him could go on forever, and THAT is the problem. Lol.

 

It's just not enough for me (much to his disappointment)

 

And what's even more twisted is, he seemed to LIKE when I got angry. So frustrating. Lol

[Realist3]

I cannot imagine how she'd ever find out. All of our communication is in person, personal iMessage that he immediate deletes, and phone calls on our work phones. Other than pics he keeps on a locked down app on his phone, there's no evidence for her to ever find. Our encounters happen during his general/vague work hours, either at work or at my home that is nearby.

 

Unless he tells her outright, she'll never know. And he has no motivation to do that.

 

My tolerance level changes with the week. I realize that next week I'll probably be in a "He sucks!" mood.

 

That is how she will find out.

 

At some point she will hire a PI, and they will bust him going to your home.

[OldRover]

Rosy,

 

You sure have a lot of comments to ponder over from this thread, some good, some not so good, and both negative and positive.

 

What we know right now is that everything is working well for you now. You seem to be happy with it, enjoy it and you have indicated there's no reason to change. You know the risks, and have accepted them.

 

I don't subscribe to all the domesday sayers.... it will end, you will be found out, you will be miserable, it will get worse, etc., etc. So far none of them are true. They may or may not happen in the future. You "could' go on for ever. Statistics are probably not in your favor, but they don't show well for any three legged relationship and many marriages or LTR. There are no guarantees in life.

 

Also, a lot depends on the relationship that your MM has with his wife, that could be a large factor. What are his issues with her, and why does he elect to stay and what are his future thoughts. Someday you may want more (as he may) and probably worth knowing what each other thinks.

 

For now, best of luck to you. There are many relationships like yours that go forever.

[RoseVille]

These two posts seem very contradictory.

 

You're in love with him, but you're fine with things never changing and the two of you never really having a life together?

 

I find that doubtful.

 

You didn't read correctly.

 

I said RIGHT NOW, until it becomes unacceptable, not never.

[RoseVille]

That's exactly how we were - iMessages, secret locked pic app, work calls, encounters like yours too. My MM was soooo careful. Deleted everything. Even confirmed deletions with me. Never did we send a text at the wrong time, we knew all the rules. Hey, we were NOT gonna be dumb and get caught. We got away with it for a long time too. Until our ship came in and we had a D-Day. Because the thing is, people aren't perfect. You never think it'll be your turn till it is.

 

How did yours get caught?

 

Your worst enemy right now is the emotional rollercoaster you are on. The push-pull phase of the affair makes the APs less aware of their outward actions and this is when a lot of people get caught. BSs get suspicious. APs drop the ball. Their emotions show. They get sloppy about digital clean up. Be careful. This is the normal way affairs progress, but it's also the stage before D-Day.

 

You're probably right about all of this. And the bolded is really interesting. Do we all reach a point of thinking our A is infallible?

[Popsicle]

For me, all this worry is too stressful and not worth it.

[RoseVille]

For me, all this worry is too stressful and not worth it.

 

I know it's hard to pick up from the screen, but I'm not worried or stressed. He is, but I'm not. I'm very calm, and have been for a little while now, since the day he came in my office and had a little freak out. I think it finally hit me that he has everything to lose and is suffering a range of emotions and fears and confusion, whereas, the only thing I have to lose is him. I was worried about work, but let's just say our COC has sanctioned our relationship.

 

***

 

MissBee: You're right. I'm bargaining, in a way. I recognize it, too. But perhaps the "this is bad!" self-talk was self-protection, whereas what I'm thinking now is actually closer to reality? That this can and will go on fine until/unless I reach a point where it's not enough?

 

To the person who said I'm confusing drama with connection, that's just not true. Maybe the sex is more exciting when it's risky, but there's no drama. We've known each other a LONG time and have had a connection for a long time, as sincere friends. And the more we learn about each other, the stronger it gets. We find ourselves finishing each other's sentences, and letting each other in to some of the darker parts of our personalities/lives/experiences. There isn't drama. It is almost too easy being with him. I'm not even sad or lonely on the weekends (yet!) because I have such a full life. I sometimes wish he was here to share it with, but I've always been a very, very independent woman, and I'm not in a place where I'm wallowing, or where we're arguing. And what's a push-pull to me might not even be recognizable to someone else. It's just my intuition, a feeling on any given day that his guilt has resurfaced and he's gotta calm down.

 

I love him, really. I understand many might not consider it a "real" relationship just because we don't share kid duty and bills, but that's pretty insulting to relationships that aren't marriages. I want him to be happy. And selfishly, I want to be one of the things that makes him happy.

 

Maybe it's resignation that's brought me to where I am right now. Maybe it's that I just don't see another option for finding someone I connect with on so many levels, and so I'm resigned to this. Maybe it's that I'm in a place where, rightly or wrongly, I truly don't think that this will end up so mortifying my bad as some claim, but that it will end up just as it should (with or without us together), and I just gotta ride it out. Que sera sera, ya know?

 

I also acknowledge that yes, he was getting sloppy, and he was worried about it. Then he got super careful again.

 

But yes, as I sit here now, I see that despite the ways he's covered his tracks technologically, there are opportunities for getting caught elsewhere. Now he's getting a little more daring, in little ways and bigger ways. He's in more contact than ever before on weekends and evenings; there's more emotional longing coming from him in writing. He kissed me yesterday in public, one of those normal PDA type kisses. Then stood in line with me later at Coffee Bean while rubbing my back. We go out to eat often, sometimes he pays. And he talks in his sleep, which has suddenly angered his wife; he has expressed fear that he's already said my name, because after one night of this she was very cold and distant.

 

A while back, I once told him that sometimes I think he subconsciously wants to get caught. He of course denied it, but there are moments, like yesterday, where I think it's true.

[Popsicle]

I did pick up that you are not worried Roseville. I used to not be worried in the first year but later it just hit me that the whole thing is too much.

[RoseVille]

I did pick up that you are not worried Roseville. I used to not be worried in the first year but later it just hit me that the whole thing is too much.

 

Maybe because it's still relatively new? We're several months away from a year mark.

[Popsicle]

Maybe because it's still relatively new? We're several months away from a year mark.

 

My feelings never changed for him since then, but my God, it's just so complicated and hard. Love should not be this hard.

[Popsicle]

Roseville, I'm also not comfortable being with unavailable men. It's not something I like or am used to or unconsciously seek out at all. I like the opposite. I know you've mentioned before that you go for unavailable men.

[RoseVille]

Rosy,

 

That made me smile.

 

Also, a lot depends on the relationship that your MM has with his wife, that could be a large factor. What are his issues with her, and why does he elect to stay and what are his future thoughts. Someday you may want more (as he may) and probably worth knowing what each other thinks.

 

His M, in a nutshell, is very typical: married very young, now living like roommates, infrequent and super mundane sex he must initiate if it happens at all, years of resentment built up, depression from relationship issues, emotional connection and desire is gone, if not for the children they would have split years ago. A few weeks ago he was gone for a week from home for work. When he came home, she was annoyed by his absence, she didn't miss him. I think he feels very alone in his M, his only reason for existing is to be the dad. He wants more for himself, but thinks it would be impossible, as he's unwilling to be away from his kids; they're young (but not that young, one is entering junior high) and he feels it's important they see their dad every day.

 

Her position, as explained by him over time: She's committed to their family and will never ever ever leave, no matter what. She is completely satisfied and happy and when he raises his concerns/issues, she's dumbfounded and doesn't know why their M in its current state isn't enough. The only safe place he feels he can get support for his feelings is when they're in MC, and when the MC acknowledges him and his feelings and explains why he's justified in feeling that way, she breaks down and is devastated and just doesn't understand why the status quo isn't working for him. But then she'll try, and it'll get better, he'll feel hopeful, but then it just goes back to the way it was. He's been convinced for years that "women are like this" or "women want/don't like/etc" this or that based on what she's said - she's convinced him that her desires/wants/dislikes are those of all women, whether it be something related to their sex life or something personal to their dynamic. For YEARS he's been saying this is what marriage is; he thinks this miserable existence is normal, what happens, that all marrieds are doomed to live the same fate. He counsels people to NOT get married, ever. I wouldn't be surprised if he's some bitter dude posting on a forum like LS telling people how much marriage sucks.

 

I think our A is actually making his M tolerable. He's getting all of his emotional and sexual needs met through me, and has the security and family life at home.

 

Whether the A ends or not, I don't think he'll ever leave his M while his kids are still at home.