I told a client "F-you" today at work

[GorillaTheater]

Wow that's a lot of assumptions there.

 

Uhm, no, I'm not from Boston. I'm actually from Spain. I moved to NY, then happened to live in Boston for a few years.... and guess what? I live in NY again now!

 

I stick by what I said

 

You're just far more genteel than the rest of us barbarians.

[Arabella]

You're just far more genteel than the rest of us barbarians.

 

Haha that's funny, because if you just knew me, you'd know how far away from the truth that is.

 

I just think that you can stand up for yourself without being unprofessional.

[Arabella]

Adding to this post, doing business, especially in NY, people will test you (especially Jewish guys). They'll push and push and push to see if you're a doormat or you have a spine.

 

Once you stand up to them, your business relationship improves *significantly* from that point on.

 

You have to earn respect doing business in NY. Doing business in Boston, you have respect by default, but god forbid you don't have a PhD from Harvard or MIT. You're just a dummy up there if you're far behind Einstein in IQ.

 

The two cultures are surprising very, very different places to do business, as is SoCal, where it's loose and friendly.

 

Having been in international sales, closing deals and building distribution networks in various countries, face to face, playing to local cultures was a HUGE part of my sales training.

 

I find it remarkable people don't stop to notice the vast differences in cultures right here in the States.

 

Cultural differences are absolutely a huge factor in business, but I think you're relying pretty heavily on stereotypes.

 

I don't ever let anyone push me around, and where I am geographically doesn't impact whether I tell someone "**** you" or not.

 

I am an early 30s woman manager, and my direct reports are mostly men much older than me. Trust me, I know the meaning of having to "earn" respect better than you, as a male, will ever know

[Arabella]

wow great wonderful, so you're a big name manager who gets paid lots of money but has very thin skin.

 

Sorry your manager sucks, but I'm not her.

 

If my team ever gets abuse from a client (who are internal for the most part), they can come to me and I will handle it. I stand behind them 100%.

[Arabella]

Yup my manager told me that at first too, but first she was too busy and now she's hostile to me. now cutbacks are being discussed and if there is, it won't be her. it'll be me or others at my level. after some of us are cut she'll find a way to raise her pay from 300 thousand to 600 thousand. seen it plenty of times before.

 

Like I said, I'm not her.

 

You know what a professional would do? Go to your manager and ask for what you need from her. If you continue to just do nothing, then she may simply assume that you need nothing and leave you be.

 

The onus is on you to ask for support when you need it. Managers aren't mind readers.

[loveweary11]

Wow that's a lot of assumptions there.

 

Uhm, no, I'm not from Boston. I'm actually from Spain. I moved to NY, then happened to live in Boston for a few years.... and guess what? I live in NY again now!

 

I stick by what I said

 

 

 

Be ready. You will have your ass handed to you in NYC until you learn the culture.

 

I've done business in San Sebastian and Barcelona as well.

 

If you are an international tyoe person, it's best to learn about the culture you are doing business in and adapt.

 

People in Spain were quite polite and nice... so i was as well.

[loveweary11]

Wow that's a lot of assumptions there.

 

Uhm, no, I'm not from Boston. I'm actually from Spain. I moved to NY, then happened to live in Boston for a few years.... and guess what? I live in NY again now!

 

I stick by what I said

 

Assumptions???

 

Thank you, immigrant, for telling me I do not understand the culture where I was born.

 

I'm FROM Massachusetts.

 

That would be like me telling you you are wrong about Spain.

 

You really don't havea leg to stand on here. I grew up here, I'm older than you, have done business extensively in Boston, NY and So Cal just a bit.

 

You can't show up in my home and pretend to understand it better than i do, applying your Western European business style and theories here, thinking its the same, its not.

 

You are sounding like an American cowboy trying to do business in Europe. Clueless. Instead of listening to these actual facts about the cultures in various American cities, you know better than people born here. I would never say such things in Europe.

 

I also see you are hiding behind your "manager" title. You are only 30 and i understand European business culture very, very well. Being a 30 year old European manager is only one step above normal employee and they are typically in charge of non important departments. Call centers, customer support, never revenue generating departments or r&d.

 

I don't hide behind my title and mention how many people my department supports. That is the mark of someone very new to a position of authority.

[Haydn]

Assumptions???

 

Thank you, immigrant, for telling me I do not understand the culture where I was born.

 

I'm FROM Massachusetts.

 

That would be like me telling you you are wrong about Spain.

 

You really don't havea leg to stand on here. I grew up here, I'm older than you, have done business extensively in Boston, NY and So Cal just a bit.

 

You can't show up in my home and pretend to understand it better than i do, applying your Western European business style and theories here, thinking its the same, its not.

 

You are sounding like an American cowboy trying to do business in Europe. Clueless. Instead of listening to these actual facts about the cultures in various American cities, you know better than people born here. I would never say such things in Europe.

 

I also see you are hiding behind your "manager" title. You are only 30 and i understand European business culture very, very well. Being a 30 year old European manager is only one step above normal employee and they are typically in charge of non important departments. Call centers, customer support, never revenue generating departments or r&d.

 

I don't hide behind my title and mention how many people my department supports. That is the mark of someone very new to a position of authority.[/quote

 

Come on LW, don`t be so patronising. Not that Arabella needs any help from anyone. I mean the immigrant comment. Seemed a bit off.

 

Immigration is a whole new thread which i am not prepared to start....

[Got it]

Really? I love when people raise the immigrant card like there family weren't immigrates at some point

 

But when someone doesn't have a valid argument they resort to personal attacks.

 

Nice. And so mature. I am sure that makes one quite the winner in business.

[Got it]

In my business you tell a customer/client f you, you'd be fired. Black and white. You have an issue you take it up the chain, you get management involved, legal if needed, police, etc. You do not resort to their behavior.

[William]

Folks, dex44 was our hydra. Sorry I didn't catch them sooner but hey, we volunteer moderators have real life clients to deal with too!. Please continue. I left the responses so the thread starter could glean information they may deem valuable.

[Taramere]

He pushed me too far. Her was using vulgar language first, wouldn't listen and it was my last nerve!

 

About a dozen employees were gathered around. They heard our convo getting elevated and gathered to find out how I would react. They found out. While it was embarrassing it was also rejuvenating. I took a hit corporately, but i got a big star on my own mental score sheet.

 

I have worked very hard to keep this client, more so than any other I have but his attitude told me he couldn't care less. While I need clients now, I'm thinking this will be less burden so better gone. I still feel I should have overcome my emotions and feel I am worried that I can't really control my emotions like I should. In other words, I'm conflicted.

 

One thing it taught me is to be more careful who I sign up. Colleagues have mentioned in the past how it's better to let some customers walk and I always thought that to be dramatic. I realize now they are right! There are some basket cases that we just need to see walking out the back door.

 

I think that when work is drying up, the thing to do is tighten your belt and focus on marketing/attracting new business in, but agreeing to take on difficult clients out of desperation for business is not a good move. The headaches, the impact on your stress level, on colleagues (as in your case where co-workers were in the vicinity of the minor drama)...and ultimately, they may be pretty much unpleasable, however hard you try.

 

I say focus your energies on your easy, more pleasant clients who will act as more of a motivator. I think it's human nature to try harder for people we like - and often the effort will feel less like effort on account of you liking the client. They may well refer you to other people who are of the type you'd want as clients - word of mouth being the ideal, most prestigious form of marketing out there. Your difficult client will more than likely just badmouth you. Especially, obviously, if you ended up snapping and swearing at them. Time and effort down the drain.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Taramere

[TunaCat]

OP, I get that you are proud that you said "F-you" to a client, but oh my goodness. That is the most unprofessional response I've ever heard. I'm sure you were taught better ways to handle a client that was either difficult or one that you no longer wanted to work with.

 

Saying "F-you" in a professional setting is completely inappropriate and I'm dumbfounded that you actually said it. I have a hot temper, but I have never said F-you to anyone I worked with, and I've worked with some difficult people.

 

I think in very black & white terms in professional settings and you were totally in the wrong here. No wiggle room, no gray area. You are incredibly lucky that you didn't get fired.

[Arabella]

Assumptions???

 

Thank you, immigrant, for telling me I do not understand the culture where I was born.

 

I'm FROM Massachusetts.

 

That would be like me telling you you are wrong about Spain.

 

You really don't havea leg to stand on here. I grew up here, I'm older than you, have done business extensively in Boston, NY and So Cal just a bit.

 

You can't show up in my home and pretend to understand it better than i do, applying your Western European business style and theories here, thinking its the same, its not.

 

You are sounding like an American cowboy trying to do business in Europe. Clueless. Instead of listening to these actual facts about the cultures in various American cities, you know better than people born here. I would never say such things in Europe.

 

I also see you are hiding behind your "manager" title. You are only 30 and i understand European business culture very, very well. Being a 30 year old European manager is only one step above normal employee and they are typically in charge of non important departments. Call centers, customer support, never revenue generating departments or r&d.

 

I don't hide behind my title and mention how many people my department supports. That is the mark of someone very new to a position of authority.

 

You know absolutely nothing about me, my qualifications, or my level of responsibility. Not only are you completely wrong in everything you've assumed about me, but you're also making a fool of yourself by showing that you can't even have a rational discussion and instead resort to personal attacks.

 

And you call yourself a professional?

 

Sad.

[SycamoreCircle]

See, people really want to say F.U, but they're trapped in this miserable high-mindedness---professionalism.

 

Let's all practice saying it together...1...2...3...

 

"F.U.":laugh::laugh:

 

Remember that Fox Sports anchorwoman who bi†ched out the tow truck attendant? The attendant handled it with sure suavity, but oh it woulda' been glorious to see that entitled mannequin served a nice, juicy F.U. enchilada!

[Arabella]

See, people really want to say F.U, but they're trapped in this miserable high-mindedness---professionalism.

 

Let's all practice saying it together...1...2...3...

 

"F.U.":laugh::laugh:

 

Remember that Fox Sports anchorwoman who bi†ched out the tow truck attendant? The attendant handled it with sure suavity, but oh it woulda' been glorious to see that entitled mannequin served a nice, juicy F.U. enchilada!

 

YES, absolutely! This is exactly the point I was trying to make.

 

No matter how inept or obnoxious the other party is, it's not a good reason to give into my urge to tell people off.

 

It's all about self control

[SycamoreCircle]

Full Definition of PROFESSIONALISM

 

1

: the "]conduct, aims, or qualities that characterize or mark a profession or a professional person(see "]1professional)

 

2

: the following of a profession (as athletics) for gain or livelihood

 

See professionalism defined for English-language learners

 

As someone who gave up long ago on any kind of ambition(I've always fancied driving an ice cream truck), do I look on curiously persons who purport Professional status! And now I notice that definition One stipulates qualities that characterize or mark a profession. From having worked too many restaurant jobs, I can verify that Gordon Ramsay's vein-popping, Klaus Kinski tirades fit perfectly with what is considered professional behavior in the culinary world. So, can we agree that different professions have different criteria? I think I'm still high, by the way.

 

Edited May 27, 2015 by SycamoreCircle

[Arabella]

Full Definition of PROFESSIONALISM

 

1

: the "]conduct, aims, or qualities that characterize or mark a profession or a professional person(see "]1professional)

 

2

: the following of a profession (as athletics) for gain or livelihood

 

See professionalism defined for English-language learners

 

As someone who gave up long ago on any kind of ambition(I've always fancied driving an ice cream truck), do I look on curiously persons who purport Professional status! And now I notice that definition One stipulates qualities that characterize or mark a profession. From having worked too many restaurant jobs, I can verify that Gordon Ramsay's vein-popping, Klaus Kinski tirades fit perfectly with what is considered professional behavior in the culinary world. So, can we agree that different professions have different criteria? I think I'm still high, by the way.

 

Haha I love Gordon Ramsay, but...

 

I like this article for defining "professionalism". I've been known to give it to read to some of my engineers.

 

What Does It Mean to Be Professional at Work? - US News

 

While I would generally agree that there is a wide range of what is considered "professional" depending on the country, I think most of these basics still apply

[pink_sugar]

In my business you tell a customer/client f you, you'd be fired. Black and white. You have an issue you take it up the chain, you get management involved, legal if needed, police, etc. You do not resort to their behavior.

 

This. In any job I have held, I would have been terminated immediately for such an act. Maybe you're not concerned about being terminated, but I sure would be, because unemployment is not going to pay my bills. There have been many times I have wanted to tell someone to F off, but my desire to have a job was stronger than my need to tell off the customer.

[kenmore]

Well, before we go on much longer here, I would like to point out that I'm not "proud" of what I did. It is not a shining achievement in my life to lose control of my emotions and blow on someone. I don't necessarily think it's all bad, but if I had to rate it, I'd put it on the low end of the scale for sure.

 

For clarification purposes, I'm not an "employee" of anyplace, I'm an independent insurance agent which means I'm 1099'ed. I don't get paid until I sell something and if I lose this jerk, I lose my commission too (or what's left unearned.) The job is frustrating, I like aspects of it and dislike others and whether it's for me is still up for debate, but I was very proud of my customer service level regarding all of my clients up to this point.

 

Was it unprofessional? Absolutely! Was it necessary? I'm sure not. Should I have behaved differently? I'm sure I should have. Would I do it again? I hope not; but for one brief shining moment before I realized how unprofessional it was and how much more in control of my emotions I need to be, I felt awesome!! Perhaps so awesome for those two seconds, it was worth it in the end.

 

While I'd like to keep doing my job, if it ended it wouldn't be the end of the world. As I said, it's a thankless job (so many are), I don't feel I have the support of my company (and it's a big company) in fact I feel my company is my worst enemy sometimes, and so far it has cost me much more to work there than I have been paid! If I was a regular employee, I may have been able to use more restraint. There is a mindset in a job and you have a certain feel as you do it. Maybe you feel respected and you walk proudly. Maybe you feel walked on and you carry yourself as a doormat. I am an independent agent and I feel...independent. While I have a district manager, a trainer, a field manager etc who are all above me and could say at any time your career here is finished, they are not too big on the idea of letting people go who work hard bringing in business for no pay.

 

So, to all of you who said I acted wrongly, I agree. I can't just go screaming at customers F-you! I lost it, plain and simple. It was not a rational decision, it came from the heart of my anger and frustration at this guy, the fact he was saying the same to me, and my mindset as I detailed above.

 

Now the aftermath: My manager took me and a couple of my superiors aside in a closed office and told me I can't say things like that to a customer, especially in a room full of co-workers and said it's "one strike." He then offered me a possible chance at a book of business that is a mess, but it's an opportunity for me, so I got the mixed signal that he didn't like what I did but then rewarded me for it. Meanwhile my field manager who was present at the time was laughing. These guys are from the front lines of insurance and they know what it's like, so I'm sure they understand. As Carhill said, it's an experience to learn from. What's important here is I don't do it again.

 

As for the customer, he came back today with his tail between his legs and continued the conversation with me from where we left off, but with a much more civil and friendly demeanor. We both had our dander up yesterday and I could tell he wasn't proud of his actions either. He was likened to the school bully. That's how I see this. I didn't take his crap and he changed. He's still one of the biggest pains in my ass, but it could have been worse.

 

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. It was a very interesting read!

[SycamoreCircle]

As for the customer, he came back today with his tail between his legs and continued the conversation with me from where we left off, but with a much more civil and friendly demeanor. We both had our dander up yesterday and I could tell he wasn't proud of his actions either. He was likened to the school bully. That's how I see this. I didn't take his crap and he changed. He's still one of the biggest pains in my ass, but it could have been worse.

And that, folks, is why professional etiquette is a load of bunk. OP's actions cut through the bureaucracy of business, which is probably what was aggravating the client in the first place. Once the client realized "hey, this person will dispense with the high-fructose parlance and tell it like it is", they realized they were out of line and this is a business person they can trust. Remember...it's the thought that counts...

[loveweary11]

 

Come on LW, don`t be so patronising. Not that Arabella needs any help from anyone. I mean the immigrant comment. Seemed a bit off.

 

Immigration is a whole new thread which i am not prepared to start....

 

I know,.. she reported it to the "managers".

 

But I think it may have been mis stated.

 

What I was trying to say is an immigrant does not know a culture (especially delicate nuances varying from city to city) better that someone who was born there and had done business there their entire lives.

 

I cannot travel to the UK as an immigrant and tell you exactly what the subtle differences between people from London and Manchester are as they relate to business... and tell you that you are incorrect, while I, the immigrant, an correct. I'm sure I'd be mistaken to tell you people behave exactly the same in both cities... that there are no cultural differences.

 

See what I mean?

 

Having spent several years doing business all around the globe, I'm quite aware of cultural differences. (as well as how Western European advancement in companies is tied to age) I never once walked into a country and pretended I know more about the subtleties of its culture than a native. Yet, I saw many American cowboys doing this. They were projecting American cultural values on the places they visit, insulting locals and it embarrassed me, frankly.

 

I had always noticed people from every other culture were more sensitive to being global citizens, respecting and learning as they visit new places.

 

I guess I'm dismayed to see a Western European person act like a cowboy American, totally misunderstanding the local cultures while implying someone who was born in and did businesses in these cities doesn't understand the same.

 

I held Westen Europeans to a higher standard on this stuff. But the way she just imposes her European business culture on her view of American business culture is sad. Just like the American cowboy doing the same overseas.

 

My post came out of frustration. I apologize for it being a little over the top.

[loveweary11]

h

 

As for the customer, he came back today with his tail between his legs and continued the conversation with me from where we left off, but with a much more civil and friendly demeanor. We both had our dander up yesterday and I could tell he wasn't proud of his actions either. He was likened to the school bully. That's how I see this. I didn't take his crap and he changed. He's still one of the biggest pains in my ass, but it could have been worse.

 

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. It was a very interesting read!

 

 

 

What do you know?

 

EXACTLY what I said would happen when you tell an American client to F off. During an argument.

 

You can tell who has more actual experience here... lol

[loveweary11]

And that, folks, is why professional etiquette is a load of bunk. OP's actions cut through the bureaucracy of business, which is probably what was aggravating the client in the first place. Once the client realized "hey, this person will dispense with the high-fructose parlance and tell it like it is", they realized they were out of line and this is a business person they can trust. Remember...it's the thought that counts...

 

This, exactly.

 

"Professionalism" is garbage.

 

It's only useful inside an organization to non revenue generators, so there is peace on the reservation back home. Those of us that make the money that pays the paychecks of the "professional" people do not use "professionalism."

 

We are mavericks who are geniune, as opposed to fake, real and in your face. We typicall have stronger, very human personalities that lead entire organizations and give zero F's about the rules, hierarchy or organizational structure.

 

I've always been like this in business. No fake crap. No execuspeak. To the point, get the job done.

 

I can recall when I had that international sales job, I had a corporate Amex card I did literally anything I wanted to with. I took whoever I wanted to out drinking, out to dinner, including my friends...went clothes shopping in Milan, whatever I felt like doing. I didn't even keep the reciepts. I was about 25 years old, if I recall. Yet the CEO of the company would parade me around on stage during his company wide addresses.

 

Why would he parade such an unprofessional person around? Because I was the top person who made the money that paid his and everyone's salaries.

 

Professionalism is nothing.

 

Results are everything.

[Fugu]

Well, before we go on much longer here, I would like to point out that I'm not "proud" of what I did. It is not a shining achievement in my life to lose control of my emotions and blow on someone. I don't necessarily think it's all bad, but if I had to rate it, I'd put it on the low end of the scale for sure.

 

For clarification purposes, I'm not an "employee" of anyplace, I'm an independent insurance agent which means I'm 1099'ed. I don't get paid until I sell something and if I lose this jerk, I lose my commission too (or what's left unearned.) The job is frustrating, I like aspects of it and dislike others and whether it's for me is still up for debate, but I was very proud of my customer service level regarding all of my clients up to this point.

 

Was it unprofessional? Absolutely! Was it necessary? I'm sure not. Should I have behaved differently? I'm sure I should have. Would I do it again? I hope not; but for one brief shining moment before I realized how unprofessional it was and how much more in control of my emotions I need to be, I felt awesome!! Perhaps so awesome for those two seconds, it was worth it in the end.

 

While I'd like to keep doing my job, if it ended it wouldn't be the end of the world. As I said, it's a thankless job (so many are), I don't feel I have the support of my company (and it's a big company) in fact I feel my company is my worst enemy sometimes, and so far it has cost me much more to work there than I have been paid! If I was a regular employee, I may have been able to use more restraint. There is a mindset in a job and you have a certain feel as you do it. Maybe you feel respected and you walk proudly. Maybe you feel walked on and you carry yourself as a doormat. I am an independent agent and I feel...independent. While I have a district manager, a trainer, a field manager etc who are all above me and could say at any time your career here is finished, they are not too big on the idea of letting people go who work hard bringing in business for no pay.

 

So, to all of you who said I acted wrongly, I agree. I can't just go screaming at customers F-you! I lost it, plain and simple. It was not a rational decision, it came from the heart of my anger and frustration at this guy, the fact he was saying the same to me, and my mindset as I detailed above.

 

Now the aftermath: My manager took me and a couple of my superiors aside in a closed office and told me I can't say things like that to a customer, especially in a room full of co-workers and said it's "one strike." He then offered me a possible chance at a book of business that is a mess, but it's an opportunity for me, so I got the mixed signal that he didn't like what I did but then rewarded me for it. Meanwhile my field manager who was present at the time was laughing. These guys are from the front lines of insurance and they know what it's like, so I'm sure they understand. As Carhill said, it's an experience to learn from. What's important here is I don't do it again.

 

As for the customer, he came back today with his tail between his legs and continued the conversation with me from where we left off, but with a much more civil and friendly demeanor. We both had our dander up yesterday and I could tell he wasn't proud of his actions either. He was likened to the school bully. That's how I see this. I didn't take his crap and he changed. He's still one of the biggest pains in my ass, but it could have been worse.

 

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. It was a very interesting read!

 

I had one or two moments similar to what you described early on, so your anecdote is something I could relate to. I had a situation that was similar, but it wasn't a client but an allied membership in an trade association. It was actually our biggest allied partner, and some of this company's founders were past presidents on my association's board of directors, so needless to say, it was a delicate relationship.

 

Anyway, the insurance company had this new president who was an arrogant schmuck. He actually knew the insurance field and did a reasonably good job of putting together deals for his company. Problem was, nobody liked the SOB and a lot of our members were clients of his who actually disliked him so much that they threatened to leave his company and go with the competition. We also shared the same office space but had different rooms. Anyway, this jerk had a tendency to talk down to me and my staff, as though we were *his* staff, which we were not. One day, he really pushed it with me, and I exploded so loudly that everyone in the building could hear the meltdown. I knew after about five minutes of sitting in my office that I had crossed a line myself in response to his bullying, but I still felt good about it and I wasn't going to apologize to him. I did, however, immediately apologize to others, and I managed to salvage some of my reputation. People knew instinctively that he was probably in the wrong, but as I already knew, the way I handled it was also wrong.

 

That being said, I never had problems with him again. He knew that he was not going to bully me or my staff - ever. I knew it too. We actually had a somewhat decent relationship after that. A lot of times people will push you around without even too much thought. It's as if there's some sort of innate need to see what you're made of. I seriously think there are times in life when you *must* show that you have boundaries that cannot be crossed. It's just a matter of how you learn to deal with those situations. When I was younger, I used to get angry and emotional lot because I didn't have the confidence to deal with those situations. I still sometimes get expressive, but I pay a little closer attention to the voice in my head that says, "Dude, chill, not a good idea. Go take a walk. Get a drink of water. Come back in five." I didn't really listen to that voice when I was younger. The voice in my head back then said "Let's get it on, brah!!!" (I totally see why women date older men for this reason, lol)

 

I think you're working for good people. Your managers handled it exactly the way it should have been handled. They struck just the right balance. On the one hand, they let you know in unmistakable terms that your reaction was unacceptable - as they should have. Yet they also know that it's a mistake. They understand that people are jerks and they sometimes cross lines. You were absolutely right to stand up for yourself - just need to do it in a more mature manner next time. Make sure you thank them for your support and reiterate your commitment to grow from this.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Fugu