"loving" two women

[Tauriel]

Another parallel: My ex-H did not have any income for about 5 years. I was the sole breadwinner. He was a non-participatory father, and our relationship was barely even roommates. (I would have expected more from a roommate.) When I sought intimacy and emotional connection outside the marriage, I realized that I was holding on to the illusion of a marriage in order to avoid the horror of divorce. My parents were divorced, and I never wanted that for my children. It was excruciating. The whole thing. And even though I have yet to find the love that I want for myself, I definitely think I'm better off on my own than I would have ever been with him.

 

Something that I've noticed is that MW are far more likely to pull the trigger on a bad marriage than men, regardless if an A is involved. My first marriage was horrific near the end, and yet my ex-H wanted me to stay. I never understood that: why would he want to continue something that was so incredibly dysfunctional? Didn't he want love for himself? For me? I suppose part of it was because I was the breadwinner, and no one wants to let go of that. But I also wonder if women aren't a little more emotionally invested in their marriages; if they expect more out of their life partners?

[norudder]

Something that I've noticed is that MW are far more likely to pull the trigger on a bad marriage than men, regardless if an A is involved. My first marriage was horrific near the end, and yet my ex-H wanted me to stay. I never understood that: why would he want to continue something that was so incredibly dysfunctional? Didn't he want love for himself? For me? I suppose part of it was because I was the breadwinner, and no one wants to let go of that. But I also wonder if women aren't a little more emotionally invested in their marriages; if they expect more out of their life partners?

 

 

Exmm talked himself up quite a bit. Now I think of him as an inaction hero. When it comes to emotional courage he was weak. But even faithful spouses can lack emotional courage in different ways. I was too in having an exit A, but faced/am facing my issues. I try to to realize he's not maybe won't ever be ready to change, its just where he is and its not about me.

[gettingstronger]

My husband swore he loved me the whole time, our OW swears he loved her but never said it- I think he loved no one, including himself at that time-

[Tauriel]

My husband swore he loved me the whole time, our OW swears he loved her but never said it- I think he loved no one, including himself at that time-

 

I think that there's a lot of truth in this. I'm remembering back to the time when I was extremely sad in my marriage and felt no self-worth. My sense of worth was so low, I couldn't even contemplate an A with anyone, because I thought no man would have me. My ex-H had told me as much. He told me that no one would want me, other than him, and after a while, I began to believe it.

 

People escape from themselves in different ways. I totally tuned out; I lost myself in career, training for triathlons, writing, quilting, friends, keeping myself busy every single spare minute until my head hit the pillow at night to avoid my feelings about myself and my situation. I'm sure that this was a "healthier" way of dealing with the situation, but it still didn't solve any of my problems.

[Hope Shimmers]

I think that there's a lot of truth in this. I'm remembering back to the time when I was extremely sad in my marriage and felt no self-worth. My sense of worth was so low, I couldn't even contemplate an A with anyone, because I thought no man would have me. My ex-H had told me as much. He told me that no one would want me, other than him, and after a while, I began to believe it.

 

People escape from themselves in different ways. I totally tuned out; I lost myself in career, training for triathlons, writing, quilting, friends, keeping myself busy every single spare minute until my head hit the pillow at night to avoid my feelings about myself and my situation. I'm sure that this was a "healthier" way of dealing with the situation, but it still didn't solve any of my problems.

 

This is so sad, this gaslighting. I truly believe there are few if any more devastating ways to abuse someone - unfortunately I have the various comparison experiences to back that up.

 

I can totally relate, although it was ex-MM who did this to me (later learned he was doing it to his W too). The goal was to keep both of us where he wanted us, under his control. In my case the only way he could control me was to take shots at my self-worth and confidence so that I was utterly dependent on him and gave up my whole life and everything that had previously defined me to do this. And it was an insidious process so it wasn't something I even saw happening.

 

Some of it was even totally objective stuff, like I would refer to a phone conversation we had a few hours prior and he would say "what conversation? Are you having problems with your memory again? We didn't talk this morning. Your memory is just getting worse and worse." Then I would actually go look at the cell phone log and see the call record, and even though I could see it, I still couldn't process if I was crazy, and seeing/hearing things, like he was suggesting. By the end I was utterly dependent on him to make any decision and every bit of my previous self was completely gone. Just the way he wanted it.

[Tauriel]

I can totally relate, although it was ex-MM who did this to me (later learned he was doing it to his W too). The goal was to keep both of us where he wanted us, under his control. In my case the only way he could control me was to take shots at my self-worth and confidence so that I was utterly dependent on him and gave up my whole life and everything that had previously defined me to do this. And it was an insidious process so it wasn't something I even saw happening.

 

My MM is passive-aggressive about it. He doesn't do it in a mean way; he will say anything to get out of plans, something we agreed on. Last week, I left work early so we could talk. Told him I'd be home in 30 minutes. He says, okay. So for the next seven hours I hear absolutely nothing from him. The next day, he told me that he was going to call, but got busy and then it got to be "too late", and he didn't think I'd still be up. Repeat this excuse about 200 times, and you'll get a general picture of why I'm so unhappy.

[Hope Shimmers]

My MM is passive-aggressive about it. He doesn't do it in a mean way; he will say anything to get out of plans, something we agreed on. Last week, I left work early so we could talk. Told him I'd be home in 30 minutes. He says, okay. So for the next seven hours I hear absolutely nothing from him. The next day, he told me that he was going to call, but got busy and then it got to be "too late", and he didn't think I'd still be up. Repeat this excuse about 200 times, and you'll get a general picture of why I'm so unhappy.

 

Passive-aggressive is the absolute worst. Don't even get me started.

[Grapesofwrath]

This is so sad, this gaslighting. I truly believe there are few if any more devastating ways to abuse someone - unfortunately I have the various comparison experiences to back that up.

 

I can totally relate, although it was ex-MM who did this to me (later learned he was doing it to his W too). The goal was to keep both of us where he wanted us, under his control. In my case the only way he could control me was to take shots at my self-worth and confidence so that I was utterly dependent on him and gave up my whole life and everything that had previously defined me to do this. And it was an insidious process so it wasn't something I even saw happening.

 

Some of it was even totally objective stuff, like I would refer to a phone conversation we had a few hours prior and he would say "what conversation? Are you having problems with your memory again? We didn't talk this morning. Your memory is just getting worse and worse." Then I would actually go look at the cell phone log and see the call record, and even though I could see it, I still couldn't process if I was crazy, and seeing/hearing things, like he was suggesting. By the end I was utterly dependent on him to make any decision and every bit of my previous self was completely gone. Just the way he wanted it.

 

My last relationship (a bf, who cheated on me constantly) did things like this regularly. Total gaslighting. Blameshifting. telling me i had "massive issues" and that no one else would want me. Criticizing and shaming me for liking sex. Making fun of my clothes, shoes, car, etc. I started to question my own perceptions about things, and it was crazy-making. I went NC on him and never regretted t for a second. Now I think, however, that my involvement with MM is a reaction to this abuse.

[N2053]

In my experience it’s possible to love two people.

 

I am a MM and have been having an affair for about 6 months. I work with the OW and we were good friends for years before the affair. I already loved her as a friend, so once we started the affair it was easy to start loving her romantically as well.

 

I’m not making excuses, but I began the affair at a time when I was particularly unhappy in my marriage. My W had given up in a lot of ways and I was at the end of my rope with her. We have two small children so divorce is not an option I would take lightly.

 

Again, not an excuse - just context.

 

The OW’s marriage was also in dire straits when we began. Her husband was very abusive and a month into our affair she left him. Not for me, for herself. Though no doubt her involvement with me gave her the strength to do so. She also has two children.

 

When we started out we had naive notions that it would be a very short-term, physical thing. However, we soon fell in love and I believe a lot of that has to do with our prior friendship.

 

I love this woman, and yes, I do love my wife. I’ve been with her for 20 years. It’s very presumptuous to say that a person who cheats doesn’t love their spouse. Yes, they are doing wrong to their spouse, and yes, they are being abusive, but it doesn’t mean they don’t love them.

 

Obviously it’s disrespectful. The only thing I can say is I don’t feel disrespectful. I’m not getting off on being deceitful. I’m not getting pleasure from the notion that I’m “eating my cake” etc. But I know I'm being completely selfish. There are many, many moments where I feel deep shame and guilt. And it sucks having to sneak around, it makes my once-simple life a lot more complicated than I bargained for.

 

But this is the situation I’ve gotten myself into, and it’s not so easy to just stop. I feel a responsibility now to the OW, who I also love, and I don’t think it would be right for me to break her heart. In fact, I’ve kind of resigned myself to the idea that if anyone is going to break it off it has to be the OW. And she will eventually, I’m sure of it.. And it’s going to hurt like hell.... but it wouldn’t be right for me to do so.

[norudder]

My last relationship (a bf, who cheated on me constantly) did things like this regularly. Total gaslighting. Blameshifting. telling me i had "massive issues" and that no one else would want me. Criticizing and shaming me for liking sex. Making fun of my clothes, shoes, car, etc. I started to question my own perceptions about things, and it was crazy-making. I went NC on him and never regretted t for a second. Now I think, however, that my involvement with MM is a reaction to this abuse.

 

I have another thread on passive aggressiveness. I too think it was a factor to my needing the superficial validation from an affair so much. But really all the affair did was make me feel worthless in a different way.

[Hope Shimmers]

I feel a responsibility now to the OW, who I also love, and I don’t think it would be right for me to break her heart. In fact, I’ve kind of resigned myself to the idea that if anyone is going to break it off it has to be the OW. And she will eventually, I’m sure of it.. And it’s going to hurt like hell.... but it wouldn’t be right for me to do so.

 

Why are MM in affairs so passive?

 

Not trying to beat you up, but the time to worry about not breaking her heart would have been before you started the A. I can tell you from experience that no matter who does the 'ending', she will be crushed. Is it right for you to keep dragging it on until SHE finds the strength to break it off, knowing it only gets harder as time goes on?

[norudder]

In my experience it’s possible to love two people.

 

I am a MM and have been having an affair for about 6 months. I work with the OW and we were good friends for years before the affair. I already loved her as a friend, so once we started the affair it was easy to start loving her romantically as well.

 

I’m not making excuses, but I began the affair at a time when I was particularly unhappy in my marriage. My W had given up in a lot of ways and I was at the end of my rope with her. We have two small children so divorce is not an option I would take lightly.

 

Again, not an excuse - just context.

 

The OW’s marriage was also in dire straits when we began. Her husband was very abusive and a month into our affair she left him. Not for me, for herself. Though no doubt her involvement with me gave her the strength to do so. She also has two children.

 

When we started out we had naive notions that it would be a very short-term, physical thing. However, we soon fell in love and I believe a lot of that has to do with our prior friendship.

 

I love this woman, and yes, I do love my wife. I’ve been with her for 20 years. It’s very presumptuous to say that a person who cheats doesn’t love their spouse. Yes, they are doing wrong to their spouse, and yes, they are being abusive, but it doesn’t mean they don’t love them.

 

Obviously it’s disrespectful. The only thing I can say is I don’t feel disrespectful. I’m not getting off on being deceitful. I’m not getting pleasure from the notion that I’m “eating my cake” etc. But I know I'm being completely selfish. There are many, many moments where I feel deep shame and guilt. And it sucks having to sneak around, it makes my once-simple life a lot more complicated than I bargained for.

 

But this is the situation I’ve gotten myself into, and it’s not so easy to just stop. I feel a responsibility now to the OW, who I also love, and I don’t think it would be right for me to break her heart. In fact, I’ve kind of resigned myself to the idea that if anyone is going to break it off it has to be the OW. And she will eventually, I’m sure of it.. And it’s going to hurt like hell.... but it wouldn’t be right for me to do so.

 

I think your post echoes the themes from some previous comments on types of love (romantic vs attachment love) and actions being inconsistent with words/values.

 

All I can say is thank you for sharing, not many mm contribute their perspective.

[norudder]

Why are MM in affairs so passive?

 

Not trying to beat you up, but the time to worry about not breaking her heart would have been before you started the A. I can tell you from experience that no matter who does the 'ending', she will be crushed. Is it right for you to keep dragging it on until SHE finds the strength to break it off, knowing it only gets harder as time goes on?

 

Its selfishness. Which he acknowledges he is. But conveyed as martyrdom. Only therapy or the deep pain of what's coming is going to change that in my opinion.

 

Pain is a common catalyst for personal growth for a lot people.

[velvette]

Its selfishness. Which he acknowledges he is. But conveyed as martyrdom. Only therapy or the deep pain of what's coming is going to change that in my opinion.

 

Pain is a common catalyst for personal growth for a lot people.

 

 

Actually sounds more like conflict avoidance to me. Whatever it was/is going to take for him and his W to both get their needs met was/is going to involve a lot of conflict.

 

 

People get into affairs to avoid that. Of course, the irony is that the A just adds different layers of conflict.

[N2053]

Why are MM in affairs so passive?

 

Not trying to beat you up, but the time to worry about not breaking her heart would have been before you started the A. I can tell you from experience that no matter who does the 'ending', she will be crushed. Is it right for you to keep dragging it on until SHE finds the strength to break it off, knowing it only gets harder as time goes on?

 

I'm sure people will beat on me but it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. What I'm doing is wrong, there's no real way to argue around it.

 

I'm not dragging it on. We've talked about the end of this to death. I have suggested many times that I should break it off for her own good. She is insistent that I not do that. I think it would be cruel and cold and paternalistic to do that. Yes, she will be crushed if she ends it - but at least she'll be in the driver's seat. There is a difference between being the one who leaves and being the one who is left.

[N2053]

Its selfishness. Which he acknowledges he is. But conveyed as martyrdom.

 

I'm a sinner, not a martyr.

[Hope Shimmers]

I'm sure people will beat on me but it'd be like shooting fish in a barrel. What I'm doing is wrong, there's no real way to argue around it.

 

I'm not dragging it on. We've talked about the end of this to death. I have suggested many times that I should break it off for her own good. She is insistent that I not do that. I think it would be cruel and cold and paternalistic to do that. Yes, she will be crushed if she ends it - but at least she'll be in the driver's seat. There is a difference between being the one who leaves and being the one who is left.

 

Like I said, it wasn't my intention to beat you up.

 

She is waiting in hopes that something will change.

 

By the time she has had enough to break it off, it won't really matter who is doing the breaking. It takes an incredible amount of strength to walk away from someone you love, and being in the driver's seat doesn't make that pain any less. Although being tossed to the curb by someone who supposedly loves you isn't fun either.

 

If I may make a suggestion, it would be great if you would consider starting a thread with your story. You offer a perspective that is rare on this forum and many would be interested.

[N2053]

She is waiting in hopes that something will change.

 

By the time she has had enough to break it off, it won't really matter who is doing the breaking. It takes an incredible amount of strength to walk away from someone you love, and being in the driver's seat doesn't make that pain any less. Although being tossed to the curb by someone who supposedly loves you isn't fun either.

 

If I may make a suggestion, it would be great if you would consider starting a thread with your story. You offer a perspective that is rare on this forum and many would be interested.

 

I think the main difference is that if I break it off, it's something that's out of her control and is being done TO her. If she breaks it off, it's something that she has considered and thought about long and hard before doing it and it's on her terms. Even though it will be painful, it will be something that she's braced for. I'll be the one who is caught flat-footed and rejected.

 

She has already told me explicitly that if and when it ends she prefer it be on her terms. I know the arguments for why I should ignore her wishes but - at least at this stage - i'm not capable of doing it.

 

Re my own thread - ok, I'll start one now as long as its cool with the moderators.

[Popsicle]

I think the main difference is that if I break it off, it's something that's out of her control and is being done TO her. If she breaks it off, it's something that she has considered and thought about long and hard before doing it and it's on her terms. Even though it will be painful, it will be something that she's braced for. I'll be the one who is caught flat-footed and rejected.

 

She has already told me explicitly that if and when it ends she prefer it be on her terms. I know the arguments for why I should ignore her wishes but - at least at this stage - i'm not capable of doing it.

 

Re my own thread - ok, I'll start one now as long as its cool with the moderators.

 

Don't fool yourself. It doesn't matter who breaks it off. It will hurt like hell no matter what. It's about shattered dreams.

[N2053]

Don't fool yourself. It doesn't matter who breaks it off. It will hurt like hell no matter what. It's about shattered dreams.

 

What makes you think I don't know it will hurt. I realize it will hurt either way. All I'm saying is that I think it should be her decision to pull the plug, not mine.

[ladydesigner]

What makes you think I don't know it will hurt. I realize it will hurt either way. All I'm saying is that I think it should be her decision to pull the plug, not mine.

 

That's nice of you! So you can start the A, but not end it? Seems a bit cowardly to me.

[N2053]

That's nice of you! So you can start the A, but not end it? Seems a bit cowardly to me.

 

Where do you get the idea that I started it? It takes two, no?

 

And no, I don't see it as cowardly. Quite the opposite.

[ladydesigner]

Where do you get the idea that I started it? It takes two, no?

 

And no, I don't see it as cowardly. Quite the opposite.

 

It does take two, but you leaving it up to the OW to end it is very cowardly. I'm sure your situation will stay the same until either the OW has grown tired of your waffling or your wife finds out. I'm sure you would quickly change your tune come Dday.

[N2053]

It does take two, but you leaving it up to the OW to end it is very cowardly. I'm sure your situation will stay the same until either the OW has grown tired of your waffling or your wife finds out. I'm sure you would quickly change your tune come Dday.

 

There's no waffling going on here.

 

I see your point though regarding it will be for her own good. but yeah, I guess I am cowardly because I'm just not at the stage where I feel I can do that to her.

 

I'd like to hear other OWs weigh in on this point -

 

If your MM dumped you tomorrow for your own good, would you resent him forever for it? Or would you see him as doing something brave...?

[goodgirlgonebad15]

There's no waffling going on here.

 

I see your point though regarding it will be for her own good. but yeah, I guess I am cowardly because I'm just not at the stage where I feel I can do that to her.

 

I'd like to hear other OWs weigh in on this point -

 

If your MM dumped you tomorrow for your own good, would you resent him forever for it? Or would you see him as doing something brave...?

 

The bad thing is the MM will be demonzied either way. If you dump her and claim it's for her own good, you will been seen as just selfish and done with the affair and wanted to get rid of her as quietly as possible. If you hang onto her until she is finished...you'll just be seen as cake eating and selfish. I'm sorry but I have learned that no matter how the MM ended the affair, the OW should always feel tossed to side like trash and NEVER because he truly cared about our well being...

Edited April 22, 2015 by goodgirlgonebad15