"loving" two women

[goodyblue]

If Doublegold wants to clarify her point she is free to. I'm not inclined to derail the thread by discussing your interpretation of what she said.

 

 

We can agree to disagree. Humans are imperfect. Each one has a different capacity to love or respect anyone mostly dependent on whether or not they have healthy self love and self respect imo.

 

 

But, everyday in situations other than cheating people treat people they love and respect in ways that are not loving or respectful. When its done they still love and respect the person and hopefully make amends for their poor behavior.

 

 

You love your children I am sure. Have you never raised your voice to them in impatience or exasperation even though you love them?

 

Very big difference between a temporary lapse in judgement and a calculated, ongoing, blatant show of disrespect.

[velvette]

Very big difference between a temporary lapse in judgement and a calculated, ongoing, blatant show of disrespect.

 

Only in degree. The principle is the same.

[goodyblue]

Only in degree. The principle is the same.

 

Not even comparable.

[norudder]

 

And no, you can't just say you respect someone. If you don't show it, there is no respect. Just like love, if you don't exhibit it, then it is not there.

 

That's what confuses so many women I think. We get wrapped up in the words and the feelings they inspire and forget about the actions. In that regard cheating spouses aren't acting with love to either person. And like the other poster said making declarations of love to another person and carrying on with them in a dual relationship while lying to your spouse you claim to love is much different than losing temper with a loved one.

[velvette]

That's what confuses so many women I think. We get wrapped up in the words and the feelings they inspire and forget about the actions. In that regard cheating spouses aren't acting with love to either person. And like the other poster said making declarations of love to another person and carrying on with them in a dual relationship while lying to your spouse you claim to love is much different than losing temper with a loved one.

 

You're really just bringing the argument full circle to the fact that people can have feelings of love or respect, but for whatever reason not act in loving or respectful ways. Usually, the reason has to do with their capacity to put those feelings in action.

 

 

There really is no such thing as "losing" your temper. That's a euphemism that makes us feel better about making a choice(split second though it may be) to unleash our anger on someone else.

 

 

The two acts are different with regard to consequences, degree of pain caused, actions necessary to make amends if you choose to do so, etc. But, at their root, they are both just examples of how people can feel love or respect for one or more people, but act in unloving ways.

[Hope Shimmers]

It would be really amazing if, just once, we could have discussions like these that don't evolve into BS/OW bickering. Just once.

 

I've read that when people fall in love, they actually are falling in love with the way their lover makes them feel about themselves.

 

If this is true, wouldn't just anyone suffice? Why have I gone on dates with multiple people and been in multiple relationships that I have broken off because he just wasn't the one? I have broken off relationships where the guy was totally into me, treated me like a queen, and all of it. Yet I can feel very differently about someone else.

 

I used to think I understood this topic; now I'm so confused.

 

I think it's possible to love two people at once. But love is more than a feeling; it is an action. Using my ex-affair situation as an example, I know that he loved me, and he loved her. But ultimately he threw me to the curb like so much garbage because I was "strong enough to be on my own" and she wasn't. So now it doesn't matter to me at all that he loved me. Look where it left me.

[goodyblue]

You're really just bringing the argument full circle to the fact that people can have feelings of love or respect, but for whatever reason not act in loving or respectful ways. Usually, the reason has to do with their capacity to put those feelings in action.

 

 

There really is no such thing as "losing" your temper. That's a euphemism that makes us feel better about making a choice(split second though it may be) to unleash our anger on someone else.

 

 

The two acts are different with regard to consequences, degree of pain caused, actions necessary to make amends if you choose to do so, etc. But, at their root, they are both just examples of how people can feel love or respect for one or more people, but act in unloving ways.

 

They are not the same at all. The difference is motive. If I yell at my child to get out of the street, get upset because they almost got run over, it is very different from sleeping with someone else and lying, sneaking and denying. One is selfish, one is not. THIS is apples and oranges.

 

One has nothing to do with the other. I hate comparisons like this. It reminds me of when people on here compare the pain of an affair to the pain of rape. Not the same at all, and a poor comparison.

 

Anyway... I still think OP should leave his wife to find someone else.

[velvette]

They are not the same at all. The difference is motive. If I yell at my child to get out of the street, get upset because they almost got run over, it is very different from sleeping with someone else and lying, sneaking and denying. One is selfish, one is not. THIS is apples and oranges.

 

One has nothing to do with the other. I hate comparisons like this. It reminds me of when people on here compare the pain of an affair to the pain of rape. Not the same at all, and a poor comparison.

 

Anyway... I still think OP should leave his wife to find someone else.

 

 

Now you are on tangerines lol.

 

 

The example was yelling at your child because you are impatient or exasperated with them....i.e. angry. Not because you were trying to get their attention to avoid an oncoming car.

[goodyblue]

Now you are on tangerines lol.

 

 

The example was yelling at your child because you are impatient or exasperated with them....i.e. angry. Not because you were trying to get their attention to avoid an oncoming car.

 

It still has nothing to do with respect tho. I would say it is a temporary lapse in control of anger, and still not calculated and planned deception.

 

I guess I can see the point you are trying to make I just think it is not a very good analogy.

 

I still stand by my opinion that when someone has an affair they have no respect for their spouse.

[velvette]

It would be really amazing if, just once, we could have discussions like these that don't evolve into BS/OW bickering. Just once.

 

 

 

If this is true, wouldn't just anyone suffice? Why have I gone on dates with multiple people and been in multiple relationships that I have broken off because he just wasn't the one? I have broken off relationships where the guy was totally into me, treated me like a queen, and all of it. Yet I can feel very differently about someone else.

 

I used to think I understood this topic; now I'm so confused.

 

I think it's possible to love two people at once. But love is more than a feeling; it is an action. Using my ex-affair situation as an example, I know that he loved me, and he loved her. But ultimately he threw me to the curb like so much garbage because I was "strong enough to be on my own" and she wasn't. So now it doesn't matter to me at all that he loved me. Look where it left me.

 

 

No not anyone would suffice. It depends on the issues each person has. Its most clearly illustrated when their is severe dysfunction. But, I think it is also at play when there is more subtle dysfunction or even when both people are relatively healthy. Water seeks its own level thing.

 

 

With relationships it can play out where people have the same issue, similar issue or complementing/opposite issue.

 

 

Its why alcoholics end up with women who say they would never be with one because they grew up in an alcoholic household. Why women end up with abusers after they grew up in an abusive home, etc.

 

 

People telegraph a lot of information to each other in the early stage of relationships. A lot of this info is processed subconsciously and the behavior of the other person that is associated with the dysfunction is recognized and feels comfortable even when a rational analysis and recognition of red flags would lead to the conclusion its unhealthy.

[jen1447]

I still stand by my opinion that when someone has an affair they have no respect for their spouse.

I think maybe the distinction is that love and respect don't have to always be aligned. It's possible to have feelings of love for someone without necessarily respecting them. Think of a bad parent for example - you may love them, largely because they're family, but not have much regard for how they live their life. And it's certainly possible to respect someone without loving them.

 

To come completely full circle, the possibilities are actually well demonstrated by polyamory, because people often stand in judgment of it and assume that the poly person is automatically a slut or ditzy or simply can't choose, when in reality we're often very conflicted due to the relative lack of social norms supporting the practice and frequent lack of understanding or perspective regarding our own feelings. In that context, I think it's possible that a guy like in the OP's case could love two women, one of them his wife and the other a woman he fell in love with after his marriage, and be in such a disarray of social castigation and uncertainty that there's virtually no way for him to come off as anything but a dog, even when he actually has genuine love for both women. The respect qualifier would of course not be there for the wife, and he'd be at fault for not showing her deserved respect and being honest, but he may still love her and possibly even regret his actions.

 

Behavior can be real wishy-washy in terms of intentions vs. actions, and not everyone is able to overcome moments or even periods of time of weakness, especially if they don't understand what compels them.

[Popsicle]

I'm in the camp that doesn't believe you can be "in love" with two people at once. More than likely you either are in love with only one and not the other, while over estimating the other, or in love with neither and over estimating them both.

[norudder]

A lot of people are made good points about honesty and respect being part of love or not and having love but no (real) relationship or a relationship with no love (and or respect). Hopefully we get both. As an earlier poster said it doesn't really matter what he said or felt if it didn't match what i wanted from the relationship. I think that's true affairs and other relationships. It sure felt like it mattered when I was sorting myself out though and it was very painful to realize. I've learned a lot about human nature through these boards.

[Kbomb]

I still love my H and care about him. we have been together half my life and he is the father of my children. But I am not ''in love'' with him any more and hence we do not touch each other. We are friends and get along fine.

 

I was in love with OM, emotionally and sexually.

 

Yes in this context you can love two people at the same time, I think.

 

Love is not black and white, just like relationships. There is no right and wrong.

 

It is what it is and for some people that is many different things.

 

Open your mind, the world is changing and I truly believe that the traditional marriage has no place in it.

[norudder]

No not anyone would suffice. It depends on the issues each person has. Its most clearly illustrated when their is severe dysfunction. But, I think it is also at play when there is more subtle dysfunction or even when both people are relatively healthy. Water seeks its own level thing.

 

 

With relationships it can play out where people have the same issue, similar issue or complementing/opposite issue.

 

 

Its why alcoholics end up with women who say they would never be with one because they grew up in an alcoholic household. Why women end up with abusers after they grew up in an abusive home, etc.

 

 

People telegraph a lot of information to each other in the early stage of relationships. A lot of this info is processed subconsciously and the behavior of the other person that is associated with the dysfunction is recognized and feels comfortable even when a rational analysis and recognition of red flags would lead to the conclusion its unhealthy.

 

I agree with this. After getting into therapy and learning about healthy relationships, the way I saw him and what we were doing changed. I saw he truly was content with status quo and my attraction started to decline as my self respect grew.

[dreamingoftigers]

It's been shown more often than not that we love more and more whom we invest in.

 

Often why abused wives stay on as well. They invest so much into the relationship and fixing it. Trying to see the positive etc.

 

So MM, instead of actually making a full investment one way or the other, divides his loyalties and thus causes feelings to go both ways.

 

Disastrous.

[Grapesofwrath]

 

If this is true, wouldn't just anyone suffice? Why have I gone on dates with multiple people and been in multiple relationships that I have broken off because he just wasn't the one? I have broken off relationships where the guy was totally into me, treated me like a queen, and all of it. Yet I can feel very differently about someone else.

 

 

Hope: I wonder if the difference is how we feel about the other person. (I'm gong to use heterocentric pronouns here, so I hope I don't offend anyone) If he is someone that I consider to be desirable, then his desire of me improves my self-concept and I fall in love. If he is someone that I do not consider desirable, for whatever reason, then his feelings for me do not improve my self-concept. They may even dimiinish it. (Of course, for him to be in love with me, then does he have to be getting the same charge from me? Oy, this is giving me a headache. )

[goodyblue]

It's been shown more often than not that we love more and more whom we invest in.

 

Often why abused wives stay on as well. They invest so much into the relationship and fixing it. Trying to see the positive etc.

 

So MM, instead of actually making a full investment one way or the other, divides his loyalties and thus causes feelings to go both ways.

 

Disastrous.

 

This is also why the BS stays with a WS. It is not very often that there is a true R and that both parties are happier in the relationship. Usually one or the other are just going along. I always find hope in seeing two people who are sincere and truly want to fix the marriage. If you can successfully survive infidelity your marriage can survive pretty much anything.

[norudder]

I still love my H and care about him. we have been together half my life and he is the father of my children. But I am not ''in love'' with him any more and hence we do not touch each other. We are friends and get along fine.

 

I was in love with OM, emotionally and sexually.

 

Yes in this context you can love two people at the same time, I think.

 

Love is not black and white, just like relationships. There is no right and wrong.

 

It is what it is and for some people that is many different things.

 

Open your mind, the world is changing and I truly believe that the traditional marriage has no place in it.

 

There's a few cliches in there depending how you meant them. There's definitely a right and wrong way to conduct yourself in a relationship with someone based upon whatever your agreed terms are.

 

I agree the role of traditional marriage in society has changed but that's a topic for an entirely different thread.

[truncated]

"\love" could mean very different things to very different people. Ask someone id they love someone who they are treating badly, and the answer may well be 'yes', because that is what love is to them.

 

This likely comes form what they saw as 'love' when they were a child, what they were taught in the culture they grew up in, and their experiences as an adult.

 

An abusive husband may indeed love his wife, but it is not healthy and there is zero respect. A ws may love her om and her husband too, but there is no respect for either one of them.

 

Love isn't always enough, especially when it's a toxic thing.

[Tauriel]

I still stand by my opinion that when someone has an affair they have no respect for their spouse.

 

Hello, all. This is my first post. I'm the OW involved with a MM. I don't have the emotional bandwidth to share my story right now, so I thought I would slowly introduce myself on other threads, if that's okay.

 

Opinions may vary, but I'm in the goodyblue's camp. I don't see how it's possible to respect someone and do something that is guaranteed to frankly devastate them when or if they find out.

 

Of course, we always defer to our own personal experiences, because that's how we perceive the world (and others' actions). I was engaged to a wonderful man when I was at university, but I wasn't in love with him. I met someone I did fall in love with, and I felt completely ill. I broke up with my fiance -- never did tell him about the other guy. But, I broke up with him because I respected him and knew that he didn't deserve to be treated badly. To me, it's unfathomable to maintain two relationships at the same time, deceiving the person who thinks that he is the only one. I would really have to hate him -- or at least hold him in no regard. But that's only me, and other people could be different.

 

I struggle to respect MM ... a lot. At first, I was so overwhelmed by the newness of the A, it didn't bother me. Until it finally did, and I see, clearly, what he's doing to his W, and I know it is not fair to her. Whatever their problems have been over the years, no one deserves this.

 

So yeah ... I struggle with the respect issue a lot.

[Grapesofwrath]

Hello, all. This is my first post. I'm the OW involved with a MM. I don't have the emotional bandwidth to share my story right now, so I thought I would slowly introduce myself on other threads, if that's okay.

 

Opinions may vary, but I'm in the goodyblue's camp. I don't see how it's possible to respect someone and do something that is guaranteed to frankly devastate them when or if they find out.

 

Of course, we always defer to our own personal experiences, because that's how we perceive the world (and others' actions). I was engaged to a wonderful man when I was at university, but I wasn't in love with him. I met someone I did fall in love with, and I felt completely ill. I broke up with my fiance -- never did tell him about the other guy. But, I broke up with him because I respected him and knew that he didn't deserve to be treated badly. To me, it's unfathomable to maintain two relationships at the same time, deceiving the person who thinks that he is the only one. I would really have to hate him -- or at least hold him in no regard. But that's only me, and other people could be different.

 

I struggle to respect MM ... a lot. At first, I was so overwhelmed by the newness of the A, it didn't bother me. Until it finally did, and I see, clearly, what he's doing to his W, and I know it is not fair to her. Whatever their problems have been over the years, no one deserves this.

 

So yeah ... I struggle with the respect issue a lot.

 

Tauriel: We are in a similar place. I had an exit EA from my marriage. I regret it very much, for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it was cowardly and weak.

 

Having said that, I could only have the A because I wanted out of the marriage. I didn't leave the M for the OM, and ended it with him at the same time we filed for D. I went through D because it was what needed to happen, not to be with someone else.

 

I have a very difficult time with the idea of someone having an A while also still loving the spouse and wanting the marriage. This is the cake-eater phenomenon. For lack of a better word, it sucks.

[Tauriel]

Tauriel: We are in a similar place. I had an exit EA from my marriage. I regret it very much, for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it was cowardly and weak.

 

Having said that, I could only have the A because I wanted out of the marriage. I didn't leave the M for the OM, and ended it with him at the same time we filed for D. I went through D because it was what needed to happen, not to be with someone else.

 

I have a very difficult time with the idea of someone having an A while also still loving the spouse and wanting the marriage. This is the cake-eater phenomenon. For lack of a better word, it sucks.

 

I can honestly see that -- sometimes it takes something as jarring as being attracted to someone else to shine the light on what's really bad in a marriage. I've been divorced, twice; first ex-H cheated, and I can't say that I really blame him. The marriage had been dead for a long time. People called me crazy for taking the "blame", but when you haven't had sex in two years, I think that it's reasonable to assume that your spouse is going to get it somewhere else. At any rate, the A wasn't never our biggest problem, it was his unwillingness to get a job (after eight years). I left him, and I did so on my own terms, not for anyone else. I think that for some people, just getting out is a reward in itself. Others need additional incentive.

[goodyblue]

Hello, all. This is my first post. I'm the OW involved with a MM. I don't have the emotional bandwidth to share my story right now, so I thought I would slowly introduce myself on other threads, if that's okay.

 

Opinions may vary, but I'm in the goodyblue's camp. I don't see how it's possible to respect someone and do something that is guaranteed to frankly devastate them when or if they find out.

 

Of course, we always defer to our own personal experiences, because that's how we perceive the world (and others' actions). I was engaged to a wonderful man when I was at university, but I wasn't in love with him. I met someone I did fall in love with, and I felt completely ill. I broke up with my fiance -- never did tell him about the other guy. But, I broke up with him because I respected him and knew that he didn't deserve to be treated badly. To me, it's unfathomable to maintain two relationships at the same time, deceiving the person who thinks that he is the only one. I would really have to hate him -- or at least hold him in no regard. But that's only me, and other people could be different.

 

I struggle to respect MM ... a lot. At first, I was so overwhelmed by the newness of the A, it didn't bother me. Until it finally did, and I see, clearly, what he's doing to his W, and I know it is not fair to her. Whatever their problems have been over the years, no one deserves this.

 

So yeah ... I struggle with the respect issue a lot.

 

I agree with this. My guy's ex is a flaming alcoholic. He had not one ounce of respect for his ex and while he left partly because of me, he left because he was done. Really I gave him the courage is all. After he left he got an apartment and we dated for a year before we moved in together. I kind of pushed him into that because I felt he needed that time to figure things out and to be sure he really wanted our relationship rather than being stuck with me.

 

He really just felt stuck with his x. She embarrassed him with her drunken behavior on the regular, until he refused to go anywhere with her. I think he lost the last bit of respect for her when she was so drunk she vomited in bed. She was.too drunk to get up. Then she began screaming at him to help her was the sheets (he had his own room long before this), he refused. No respect for her at all.

[Grapesofwrath]

I can honestly see that -- sometimes it takes something as jarring as being attracted to someone else to shine the light on what's really bad in a marriage. I've been divorced, twice; first ex-H cheated, and I can't say that I really blame him. The marriage had been dead for a long time. People called me crazy for taking the "blame", but when you haven't had sex in two years, I think that it's reasonable to assume that your spouse is going to get it somewhere else. At any rate, the A wasn't never our biggest problem, it was his unwillingness to get a job (after eight years). I left him, and I did so on my own terms, not for anyone else. I think that for some people, just getting out is a reward in itself. Others need additional incentive.

 

Another parallel: My ex-H did not have any income for about 5 years. I was the sole breadwinner. He was a non-participatory father, and our relationship was barely even roommates. (I would have expected more from a roommate.) When I sought intimacy and emotional connection outside the marriage, I realized that I was holding on to the illusion of a marriage in order to avoid the horror of divorce. My parents were divorced, and I never wanted that for my children. It was excruciating. The whole thing. And even though I have yet to find the love that I want for myself, I definitely think I'm better off on my own than I would have ever been with him.

 

I paid the price, and now I am free to have relationships. It sometimes pisses me off that the WH and WWs of the world want to have that freedom without paying the price.