Women don't play by the rules

[SearchingForMyself]

Yeah, I thought that was the case.

Men dating for free dinners, who'd a thought it...

 

I've gotten free dinners so I approve of this message!

 

Yes guys women have paid for my dinners!

[Rejected Rosebud]

How you and other women choose to categorize that is irrelevant to me. What matters is howI perceive it. It's my money that's on the line, which makes it my call to make.

Of course it's your call but for me your huge priority of keeping all your dollars to yourself is not attractive. Neither is your obsession that all women are out to get our grubby little hands on your dollars, and any woman you date must prove that she has no interest in getting her hands on your wallet and "earn" your respect. When does the part about having a good time come into play? It's not because I am a woman, being mercenary and judgmental is just not widely admired I don't think!! Srsly going into dating or a relationship with the EXPECTATION that the other person is going to screw you over because they are a woman or a man and for NO other reason pretty much says to me that it's a bad idea to be dating until you work through some issues.

 

Would you buy a beer or a coffee for a friend of yours??

[toolforgrowth]

I've gotten free dinners so I approve of this message!

 

Yes guys women have paid for my dinners!

 

Mine too! I'm not saying it doesn't happen. In fact, I only date women who will split the dating costs equally, or if they are financially unable to do so, they will at least treat me to something when they can afford it.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Thank you.

 

But if good guy is all a woman can say about me, then I'm defi itely doing something Wrong in the dating game.

 

Well I don't know you but you come off as a good person, I'm sure that is not ALL that a woman could say about you though.

[Taramere]

Totally apples to oranges.

 

You need customers to frequent your business, as that's your livelihood. Whereas no man needs a woman. They're not necessary for survival.

 

I'm not going to waste my time and resources to try and impress a woman. I am what I am...range it or leave it. If she chooses to leave it, no problem. It's not like she's the only woman in the world. Last time I checked, there were at least 3.5 billion others.

 

What TFY is talking about, as far as I can see, is impressing customers as much out of a sense of pride in his business as out of a need for customers.

 

Assuming you were single....would you expect a woman to make an effort for you on a date? Would you expect her to look good, to be carefully made up, nice hair, nicely dressed etc? If not, then fair enough. You're not putting time and resources into trying to impress her on the date, and she's not put any time and resources into trying to impress you.

 

But if a guy expects a woman to turn up looking expensively turned out, then perhaps he should equally be prepared to put an effort into trying to impress. Because a woman who has put a lot of time and thought into trying to look like somebody her date will feel proud to walk into a restaurant with is very rightly going to look dimly on a guy who spends the evening giving out a vibe of somebody who doesn't care a jot about trying to impress her.

[clia]

Absolutely it's a expectation. She flat out said no man would get a second date if he didn't spend money on her. Which means she's going into every single date with that mindset. She flat out said "the man WILL pay if he wants to continue going out with me".

 

When did I say that?

 

Once again, I am talking about the first few dates, not every single date throughout the entire course of the relationship.

 

I fail to see how allowing a guy to pay for my drink or dinner on our first date is going to somehow translate into me expecting him to pay my way through life. I mean, you can't be serious?

 

Is it an expectation? Well, don't you think it's kind of rude to invite a woman out on a date and then ask her to pay her share? Don't you think it's unromantic to start adding up the bill? I legitimately don't understand why you are getting so upset when you said yourself that you pay for 99% of your dates. You obviously recognize that it's the considerate thing to do when you have invited a woman out on a date. I didn't like to date men who are stingy. I like a man who is generous and who isn't counting his pennies. If he's going to ask me for my share of the bill on our very first date, that screams cheapness. It's not even about the money, really. I would say it's less of an expectation than it is just one more thing that gets thrown into the pot to determine whether or not I would go out with the guy again.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Hey this might be OT but I just thought of it - when my parents met they were both in university and nobody had any money but my dad was determined to go out with my mom, he got a job bussing tables so he could by a car to take her out in!! It was such a junker, they have lots of pictures of it, it was named "Fang." I don't think she expected that!! but she was def swept off her feet by his strong intentions and they are a pretty darn happy couple to this day!!! I think that is romantic ... does that make my mom and me gold diggers?

[autumnnight]

These discussion, while sometimes frustrating, are beneficial and illuminating. I have a friend who always watches to see how her date treats the waiter, the cashier, the guy who gives them their putters for mini golf (yeah she loves mini golf lol). She says that the way we treat people we have nothing to gain from and no connection to tells the people around us a lot about our character.

 

Respect may well be earned, but I tend to treat people as if they are valuable enough to warrant it until I actually learn otherwise.

 

I'm old. I lived back when tact and knowing when to talk how to talk and when to shut up and bite one's tongue was an art. I miss those days.....

[toolforgrowth]

Of course it's your call but for me your huge priority of keeping all your dollars to yourself is not attractive. Neither is your obsession that all women are out to get our grubby little hands on your dollars, and any woman you date must prove that she has no interest in getting her hands on your wallet and "earn" your respect. When does the part about having a good time come into play? It's not because I am a woman, being mercenary and judgmental is just not widely admired I don't think!! Srsly going into dating or a relationship with the EXPECTATION that the other person is going to screw you over because they are a woman or a man and for NO other reason pretty much says to me that it's a bad idea to be dating until you work through some issues.

 

Would you buy a beer or a coffee for a friend of yours??

 

This is where I need to do a better job at communicating. I can see why you may have this mindset based on what's happened in this thread so far, so I'll try my hardest to answer your questions.

 

Again, I don't keep all my dollars to myself. I just shelled out $300 got a weekend getaway fit my GF and I, and I was more than happy to do it. The difference is that she neither asked for it,not expected it. I did it because it was my choice and I wanted to.

 

I certainly don't believe that ALL women want to get their hands on my money. My GF is a clear example of that. But some of them do. And some of them have tried. And some of them have succeeded.

 

I don't go into a relationship believing the other person will screw me over. That's why I have very high standards and weed out the ones I think are more likely to do so. I have no fear whatsoever that my GF would ever do anything to hurt me. She literally has no mean or vindictive bone in her body.

 

What I find telling is that I have different requirements for what constitutes a healthy relationship than you do, and since I'm different, you say I need help. I'm not going to change my requirements to suit your sensibilities. I live my life according to my rules, not yours, not women's, not anyone's except my own.

[Rejected Rosebud]

What I find telling is that I have different requirements for what constitutes a healthy relationship than you do, and since I'm different, you say I need help. I'm not going to change my requirements to suit your sensibilities. I live my life according to my rules, not yours, not women's, not anyone's except my own.

Thanks for the explanation, I understand better I think. The reason I said I think you need help is just because you really have expressed a basic mistrust and bad opinion of women in general and you have outright said that they have to prove stuff to you to earn your respect, I can't help but think that is a bad mindset to be in if you are dating or trying to be in a relationship. Honestly I do not think men are basically untrustworthy or dangerous to me even though I had a really bad experience, if I did think like that I believe my boyfriend would suffer as a result of it, so it bothers me to read all the bad stuff you say about women in general and then read that you have a girlfriend you care about and a daughter. Though I can tell for sure you mean to do well by those two.

[SearchingForMyself]

Hey this might be OT but I just thought of it - when my parents met they were both in university and nobody had any money but my dad was determined to go out with my mom, he got a job bussing tables so he could by a car to take her out in!! It was such a junker, they have lots of pictures of it, it was named "Fang." I don't think she expected that!! but she was def swept off her feet by his strong intentions and they are a pretty darn happy couple to this day!!! I think that is romantic ... does that make my mom and me gold diggers?

 

I did the exact same thing for my ex fiance. She was well off but was so impressed by my effort to try to take her out it ended up getting me a date.

 

And a 3 year relationship. Lost the car but didn't lose the memories.

[StanMusial]

TFG - women generally don't have to worry about gold diggers so they don't understand.

 

I don't care, I could drop 100 or 500 on a night out and not feel it at all. I don't have kids though. I like to have a good time and anyone with me will be taken care of.

 

With that being said, it's not hard to suss out a gold digger. Heck some women are proud of it. I have met them, I figured them out and that was that.

 

It's not much different than a guy scamming a girl for sex. If that helps anyone.

[SearchingForMyself]

I've been on some bad dates with some not so classy women.

 

 

And some of those bad dates outright depressed me. I felt unwanted and undesirable, but sometimes you got to realize that she has a type and you aren't it.

 

Accept it, move on, and continue on the search.

[loveweary11]

What TFY is talking about, as far as I can see, is impressing customers as much out of a sense of pride in his business as out of a need for customers.

 

Assuming you were single....would you expect a woman to make an effort for you on a date? Would you expect her to look good, to be carefully made up, nice hair, nicely dressed etc? If not, then fair enough. You're not putting time and resources into trying to impress her on the date, and she's not put any time and resources into trying to impress you.

 

But if a guy expects a woman to turn up looking expensively turned out, then perhaps he should equally be prepared to put an effort into trying to impress. Because a woman who has put a lot of time and thought into trying to look like somebody her date will feel proud to walk into a restaurant with is very rightly going to look dimly on a guy who spends the evening giving out a vibe of somebody who doesn't care a jot about trying to impress her.

 

 

Oooh!

 

A great point.

 

I'm around women exclusively. I have spent many an hour in MAC and Sephora. (that's where I found Aqua Di Gio for myself)

 

When we get to the register, I'm shocked at what makeup costs. Then, there are hair treatments, styles, coloring, extensions. Next add on nails and stuff.

 

These things add up to balance out a non trivial part of the expense of a date.

 

Some guy will definitely pipe in and say he likes his chicks natural, but the majority of women spend a small fortune to look good.

 

This does balance out our just showering, shaving and putting on decent clothes/shoes.

[SearchingForMyself]

U

Thanks for the explanation, I understand better I think. The reason I said I think you need help is just because you really have expressed a basic mistrust and bad opinion of women in general and you have outright said that they have to prove stuff to you to earn your respect, I can't help but think that is a bad mindset to be in if you are dating or trying to be in a relationship. Honestly I do not think men are basically untrustworthy or dangerous to me even though I had a really bad experience, if I did think like that I believe my boyfriend would suffer as a result of it, so it bothers me to read all the bad stuff you say about women in general and then read that you have a girlfriend you care about and a daughter. Though I can tell for sure you mean to do well by those two.

 

The trick to being healthy minded is not to distrust women, but put yourself in a position where you can love women as human beings or more, but be totally prepared and okay if by chance they screw you over.

 

Its not hiding out in a cave...its creating armor to go to the next battle.

[Taramere]

Some guy will definitely pipe in and say he likes his chicks natural, but the majority of women spend a small fortune to look good.

 

This does balance out our just showering, shaving and putting on decent clothes/shoes.

 

The natural look generally costs a good bit more in either time or money. Sometimes both (even if the woman wants to pretend she's totally low maintenance and only needs like 5 minutes to get ready )

[StanMusial]

U

 

The trick to being healthy minded is not to distrust women, but put yourself in a position where you can love women as human beings or more, but be totally prepared and okay if by chance they screw you over.

 

Its not hiding out in a cave...its creating armor to go to the next battle.

 

Yeah... The playa lifestyle is more easy come easy go. Don't take more of a stash into the casino than you can afford to lose. I'm not even a player and this I know.

[SearchingForMyself]

Yeah... The playa lifestyle is more easy come easy go. Don't take more of a stash into the casino than you can afford to lose. I'm not even a player and this I know.

 

You have to maintain an abundance mentality. If you don't you are bound to lose.

[toolforgrowth]

When did I say that? [/ QUOTE]

 

Page 15, post 213:

 

But, if you, as a man, want to really impress me, you'll do it. You won't ask me out, take me to a restaurant or bar of your choosing, and then expect me to buy my own drink.

 

I perceive this to be an expectation.

 

Once again, I am talking about the first few dates, not every single date throughout the entire course of the relationship.

 

Uh huh. But if it doesn't turn into a relationship, how much money am I out? How much money in free stuff for you will I have wasted on you?

 

You'd say that's my problem, and you'd be right. Which is why I date the way I do.

 

I fail to see how allowing a guy to pay for my drink or dinner on our first date is going to somehow translate into me expecting him to pay my way through life. I mean, you can't be serious?

 

I'm dead serious. You're not the one dating and paying for all this stuff and actually having this experiences. We are. So it's perfectly natural that you have no basis of comparison, because you're the one getting all the free stuff.

 

Is it an expectation? Well, don't you think it's kind of rude to invite a woman out on a date and then ask her to pay her share?

 

Not at all. I think it's treating you like the perfectly capable adult you are. Who am to presume that you need a man to pay for you? Isn't that what feminism is all about? Women taking care of themselves? I mean, that's the message that's certainly been conveyed all these years.

 

Don't you think it's unromantic to start adding up the bill?

 

I'm not looking for romance on a first date. I'm looking for compatibility.

 

I legitimately don't understand why you are getting so upset when you said yourself that you pay for 99% of your dates.

 

The difference is I spend it on women who don't expect it simply for being a woman, and who are grateful for it. I'm not saying you aren't grateful when your man does...I honestly don't know you at all, so I have no basis upon which to make that judgment. But in my experience, women who expect it typically take it for granted. And I won't waste one red cent on them.

 

You obviously recognize that it's the considerate thing to do when you have invited a woman out on a date. I didn't like to date men who are stingy. I like a man who is generous and who isn't counting his pennies. If he's going to ask me for my share of the bill on our very first date, that screams cheapness. It's not even about the money, really. I would say it's less of an expectation than it is just one more thing that gets thrown into the pot to determine whether or not I would go out with the guy again.

 

That's because it's not your money being spent, do you don't have a vested interest in keeping it solvent.

 

I've lived dirt poor. I mean, DIRT POOR. As in, I was lucky to have $75 to spend on money for food for both my daughter and I for an entire month. When you live day by day, you really begin to learn the true value of a dollar. So yes, I track every cent I spend. And I worked insanely hard to get better jobs and increase my income, and I've succeed. I have struggled to build a substantial savings, but I now have over $3000 in cold hard cash set aside for a rainy day and for home improvements.

 

I don't know your past, and I could be wrong, but I get the impression you've never lived poor. It totally changes how you perceive money, and I do NOT spend it unless I get some kind of return on that investment. I had no choice but to live that way just to survive.

[StanMusial]

You have to maintain an abundance mentality. If you don't you are bound to lose.

 

Yep. Which is why I tell the guys on here to quit OLD and go to places with a better ratio.

[Shining One]

Hey this might be OT but I just thought of it - when my parents met they were both in university and nobody had any money but my dad was determined to go out with my mom, he got a job bussing tables so he could by a car to take her out in!! It was such a junker, they have lots of pictures of it, it was named "Fang." I don't think she expected that!! but she was def swept off her feet by his strong intentions and they are a pretty darn happy couple to this day!!! I think that is romantic ... does that make my mom and me gold diggers?

It doesn't make your mom a gold digger. Your father chose to make this investment. She did not chose to not date him when he lacked a car. In the end, his investment worked out. There's no disappointment in this story. Imagine if he had spent the money on the car, took her out for six dates, and then she said: "I'm just not attracted to you in that way".

TFG - women generally don't have to worry about gold diggers so they don't understand.

Exactly. Of course it's easy to say "paying for dates is no big deal" when you're not the one paying for it. It's like me saying: "Paying for birth control is no big deal" (please note, I have no idea how much this actually costs, I've just heard women complain about the costs).

It's not much different than a guy scamming a girl for sex. If that helps anyone.

Agreed. Of course, a woman who learns her lesson and adjusts her vetting process is socially acceptable. A man who does the same is cheap and not worthy of a date (according to some).

[xxoo]

The difference is I spend it on women who don't expect it simply for being a woman, and who are grateful for it. I'm not saying you aren't grateful when your man does...I honestly don't know you at all, so I have no basis upon which to make that judgment. But in my experience, women who expect it typically take it for granted. And I won't waste one red cent on them.

 

 

What does this mean, "expect"?

 

If I expected a man to pay, I wouldn't even bring my purse. I never went on a date without money to pay for myself.

 

I might be disappointed if a man didn't offer to pay, but not because I have to pay. Rather, because I would feel he wasn't so into me, or that he isn't my "type".

[toolforgrowth]

Thanks for the explanation, I understand better I think. The reason I said I think you need help is just because you really have expressed a basic mistrust and bad opinion of women in general and you have outright said that they have to prove stuff to you to earn your respect, I can't help but think that is a bad mindset to be in if you are dating or trying to be in a relationship. Honestly I do not think men are basically untrustworthy or dangerous to me even though I had a really bad experience, if I did think like that I believe my boyfriend would suffer as a result of it, so it bothers me to read all the bad stuff you say about women in general and then read that you have a girlfriend you care about and a daughter. Though I can tell for sure you mean to do well by those two.

 

Truth be told, I tend to think that just about everyone is a douchebag unless proven otherwise.

 

I don't have a bad opinion of women I've general. At least, I don't think I do... But I would say that I'm realistic. Not all women are bad, we all know that. But not all women are good either. To protect myself (and my daughter), I assume that any woman I go out with is a bad one in some way. So I talk to her, and ask her questions. I flat out ask "what are you looking for? What do you feel your obligations are in a relationship? What do you feel mine would be? How do you handle money? What's your relationship with your father?" I work HARD to suss them out.

 

This is why I say respect is earned. I never give it away to anyone. Both men and women need to prove to be through consistent actions that they are worthy of my trust and respect. This is not a gender thing...this is a human thing.

[ltjg45]

I like his argument.

 

It makes sense. I think the man paying is from an earlier time when men made all or most of the money, so that became the societal norm. Now, with many women out earning men, these old customs get a little confusing.

 

I think it should really be based on who is earning good money and who isn't. Let the person with the big paycheck pay.

 

In my case, I'm the guy and the bigger paycheck every time, so it's a non issue.

 

But what if we have that chick Cheryl Sandberg (sp?) taking out a college kid or even an entry level programmer? Should he pay? HELL no!

 

While that argument would make logical sense, the issue is that can only apply if both man and woman has made equal efforts in planning the date.

 

That is almost impossible. One person tend to have more interest in the other than vice versa and that shows when that one person asks out the other. That is typically the male asking out the female.

 

And because of that, the earning amount of both people doesn't even come into play. If you are the one asking the other person out and he/she agrees, then you are the one who decides how it will be handled. After all, it is you who has shown the most desire to get into a possible relationship with the other person. This date is to show just how serious you are in getting what you want in the end and to gauge if he/she is also willing to agree to your request.

 

If I ask a woman out, it doesn't make any logical sense not to fully pay for the date because I like her enough to risk rejection in hopes of getting a relationship with her and I want to prove to her that my intentions is serious with the following dates. If I felt she wasn't worth it, I wouldn't have asked her out to begin with.

 

This got nothing to do with the new dating game or anything of that sort. I feel that is common sense for anyone who wants a relationship with a person that they really want as a partner one day.

[SearchingForMyself]

While that argument would make logical sense, the issue is that can only apply if both man and woman has made equal efforts in planning the date.

 

That is almost impossible. One person tend to have more interest in the other than vice versa and that shows when that one person asks out the other. That is typically the male asking out the female.

 

And because of that, the earning amount of both people doesn't even come into play. If you are the one asking the other person out and he/she agrees, then you are the one who decides how it will be handled. After all, it is you who has shown the most desire to get into a possible relationship with the other person. This date is to show just how serious you are in getting what you want in the end and to gauge if he/she is also willing to agree to your request.

 

If I ask a woman out, it doesn't make any logical sense not to fully pay for the date because I like her enough to risk rejection in hopes of getting a relationship with her and I want to prove to her that my intentions is serious with the following dates. If I felt she wasn't worth it, I wouldn't have asked her out to begin with.

 

This got nothing to do with the new dating game or anything of that sort. I feel that is common sense for anyone who wants a relationship with a person that they really want as a partner one day.

 

 

I agree.

 

But generally, this means that men are going to lose a lot of money on possibly rejected dates. That is what scares them.