Cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to?

[minimariah]

There is far too much infidelity (and there has always been a lot of infidelity) for it to be simply a character accident. It has got to come from the fact that men and women don't communicate and don't understand what the other wants from a marriage. I'm not even sure that the young even KNOW what they want from a marriage.

 

this is such a wonderful post.

 

i think most people don't know themselves, aren't in touch with their feelings and desires, aren't honest with themselves. they live the life they THINK they should be living, not the life they want to live. and then, usually someone appears who brings all those buried emotions and desires out and that's when everything starts to fall apart.

 

i think honesty is very important but for someone to be honest to others, he/she need to be honest to themselves first and live authentically. very few actually do that.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Don't forget. Most of the folks who post here are spouses who have been betrayed by spouses who are NOT demanding divorces. Is that because they are evil and want to torture their BS? Or does it come from the fact that reality brings clarity to the situation? I don't know. I find it eternally fascinating.

 

I don't think they are evil by wanting to reconcile. I think for my WW it's a realization of what she had and could lose. Not just financially but the love and commitment of someone who cares deeply for her. That is sobering.

 

But maybe we truly are not meant to be monogamous by nature. It's a social construct we all agree to when we marry but nature is against us all. If I'm being 100% truthful maybe if a hot women pursued me like my wife was pursued I'd cheat too. I like to think I would not but in the past when other women showed an interest (and I was very attracted to them) I thought about it. But they did not AGGRESSIVELY show interest so I never cheated. But if I had I know it would not be because of my spouse and I doubt I'd think about her at all. It would be ALL about having sex with another woman. New, exciting, different. All the things my WW has described her affair as. We are all animal at heart and our higher reasoning is supposed to keep us faithful. Sometimes that reasoning fails.

[Lion Heart]

I said to my H as recently as 2 days ago that IF he had loved me and thought about that WHEN he was cheating, he could not have done it. Therefore, he cannot say that still he loved me. He did not disagree or comment (which accepts there is no rebuttal).

 

SNAP!

 

I had to check whether I wrote that post mermeade. That is the EXACT conversation I had with WS! Still amazed that they use the same handbook. It's incredible.

 

My WSs response was "but I thought you didn't love me". What crap. So I ask "were you seeking "love" from OW?" Response: "hell no, she's a nutcase! It was flesh". So the only "love" expressed by WS in the period of his A was a narcissistic love for himself. He did not give 1 seconds thought to how the A was affecting her nor the damage he would do when he had no intention whatsoever of leaving us for her.

 

It doesn't come up anymore thank goodness BECAUSE he fully accepts the A was all about him (not her, not me). He knows I loved him. It's WSs fickle attempt at blame shifting, villifying the victim and making justifications up in his own imagination. I call him out EVERY single time he lies. I label it with the cheaters code and he used to react very angrily. I've got his number. THATS what he hates. I KNOW him NOW.

 

For a month or so WS even blamed OW "it was all her fault" because SHE exposed the A to me. Like if I didn't find out, then it didn't happen. Gosh the world they must live in.

 

LH

[Lion Heart]

But only a vile, uncaring, despicable person does that to a marriage by starting the process in an aggressive way. That is totally predatory.

 

VBM I've had to check my thoughts, motivations for my thoughts AND my words since the A. Yours are similar to fleeting thoughts I had but are now far more real, honest and painful.

 

IMO you are blame shifting and I bet your WW loves that! Unless she was raped by a criminal which I certainly don't consider cheating THEN IT IS 100% ON HER! You calling a spade a heart is letting WW off the hook.

 

Don't blame the OM. HE wasn't married to you.

SHE WAS. Her marriage was HERS to protect. Plainly she didn't AND by responding in ANY way to ANY type of sexual advance was HER DOING. PARTICIPATING was her 50/50 in the sex acts.

 

The blame lies ENTIRELY on her shoulders, stop excusing her behaviour. She's obviously not correcting you when you say things like this ti her. She'd be excited that you've changed your focus to blame him.

 

Remember OM wasn't married to you.

 

Lion Heart.

Edited April 21, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fix quote

[merrmeade]

SNAP!

 

I had to check whether I wrote that post mermeade. That is the EXACT conversation I had with WS! Still amazed that they use the same handbook. It's incredible.

 

My WSs response was "but I thought you didn't love me". What crap. So I ask "were you seeking "love" from OW?" Response: "hell no, she's a nutcase! It was flesh". So the only "love" expressed by WS in the period of his A was a narcissistic love for himself. He did not give 1 seconds thought to how the A was affecting her nor the damage he would do when he had no intention whatsoever of leaving us for her.

 

It doesn't come up anymore thank goodness BECAUSE he fully accepts the A was all about him (not her, not me). He knows I loved him. It's WSs fickle attempt at blame shifting, villifying the victim and making justifications up in his own imagination. I call him out EVERY single time he lies. I label it with the cheaters code and he used to react very angrily. I've got his number. THATS what he hates. I KNOW him NOW.

 

For a month or so WS even blamed OW "it was all her fault" because SHE exposed the A to me. Like if I didn't find out, then it didn't happen. Gosh the world they must live in.

 

LH

Pretty damn uncanny. And I got the general "but I thought you didn't love me" bullcrap, too, EXCEPT that I pointed out that we have agreed that the time we were both experiencing issues of disaffection, shall we say, was a different epoch of our lives. Whereas 2 of the "A" epochs were (1) after the birth of the first baby, (2) after the birth of the second baby. Go figure. The only answer is self-love. Every time. Turns the stomach.

 

Another difference with your H — and I laud you on holding out for this one — is the IC and MC. Very impressed with that, LH. I would never get my husband to do that. Long history of psychologist prejudice. Goes along with the rest of the profile.

[VeryBrokenMan]

VBM I've had to check my thoughts, motivations for my thoughts AND my words since the A. Yours are similar to fleeting thoughts I had but are now far more real, honest and painful.

 

IMO you are blame shifting and I bet your WW loves that! Unless she was raped by a criminal which I certainly don't consider cheating THEN IT IS 100% ON HER! You calling a spade a heart is letting WW off the hook.

 

Don't blame the OM. HE wasn't married to you.

SHE WAS. Her marriage was HERS to protect. Plainly she didn't AND by responding in ANY way to ANY type of sexual advance was HER DOING. PARTICIPATING was her 50/50 in the sex acts.

 

The blame lies ENTIRELY on her shoulders, stop excusing her behaviour. She's obviously not correcting you when you say things like this ti her. She'd be excited that you've changed your focus to blame him.

 

Remember OM wasn't married to you.

 

Lion Heart.

 

 

She is not hearing ANY of that predator talk from me. That is what I'm thinking but I'm not sharing that with her.(at this point) She has never said she is any kind of victim in this at all and is taking 100% of the blame, she's not blaming him and not blaming me any longer.

 

At some point if this works she will have to forgive herself for us to be whole and then I will share my thought then.

[Mrs. John Adams]

SNAP!

 

I had to check whether I wrote that post mermeade. That is the EXACT conversation I had with WS! Still amazed that they use the same handbook. It's incredible.

 

 

My WSs response was "but I thought you didn't love me". What crap. So I ask "were you seeking "love" from OW?" Response: "hell no, she's a nutcase! It was flesh". So the only "love" expressed by WS in the period of his A was a narcissistic love for himself. He did not give 1 seconds thought to how the A was affecting her nor the damage he would do when he had no intention whatsoever of leaving us for her.

 

It doesn't come up anymore thank goodness BECAUSE he fully accepts the A was all about him (not her, not me). He knows I loved him. It's WSs fickle attempt at blame shifting, villifying the victim and making justifications up in his own imagination. I call him out EVERY single time he lies. I label it with the cheaters code and he used to react very angrily. I've got his number. THATS what he hates. I KNOW him NOW.

 

For a month or so WS even blamed OW "it was all her fault" because SHE exposed the A to me. Like if I didn't find out, then it didn't happen. Gosh the world they must live in.

 

LH

 

So do you honestly think that all cheaters read a handbook to find out how to cheat and say the same things?

I promise...i never even thought about cheating...I had absolutely no intention of cheating and I certainly did not read a handbook how to do it. Good grief!

 

and as for cheaters saying i thought you did not love me...YES....I said that too.....and why do you find that impossible to believe? Have you never had moments in your relationships that you needed to be reassured that the other person loves and cares for you? Especially if perhaps they are not ACTING like they love you????? Why is that impossible to believe?????

 

I accept full responsibility for my actions, for the things i said, for the pain i caused my husband. I have never trickle truthed or blame shifted....I know what remorse feels like.

 

Gosh the world they must live in.

 

WOW....I know your husband hurt you...and you have every right to lash out at him....but you have managed to insult, belittle, and hurt ME all in one huge swoop. I live in the same world you live in. I have compassion for all who may be struggling with infidelity from BOTH sides and i certainly don't judge them or look down my nose at them because i am so much better than they are.

 

I betrayed my husband....it was my choice to do so. In turn my husband betrayed me....and while i accept that it was ultimately my fault...he still made the choice to do it....just like i did.

 

I guess I know how BOTH worlds feel since you seem to think there are two of them and....pain is pain...

[road]

So do you honestly think that all cheaters read a handbook to find out how to cheat and say the same things?

 

 

 

Can a book be shown in evidence to prove you all have read and mastered the same material?

 

 

What has been shown is WS's justified, also referred as made the decision to have sex with an AP using the same basic set of excuses.

 

 

All WW's and WH's use the same logic to justify what they did. They all say the same basic set of excuses such as I love you but I'm not in love with you, barf.

 

 

WW's and WH's are instant professionals at trickle truthing.

 

 

That all OM use the same strategies over and over to turn a wife into a WW. Specially the friend angle and the be there to encourage and hear the WW vent.

 

 

So I can not show a book. Though posts on infidelity forums makes it appear that all WW's and WH's all studied under the same Infidelity Jedi Master.

Edited March 9, 2015 by road

[merrmeade]

I want to speak to the sub-topic of VBM's wife's OM predator and his inclination to give this a margin.

 

I think that a certain kind of WS (like mine) - a certain kind of person - is used to living by blame-shifting and excusing themselves from taking responsibility. Like anything, it's a spectrum. I tend to be on the opposite end and am only now learning NOT to blame myself for everything. So that's one thing. The other is that they're here, expected to fix things in the marriage even though they're now officially 'caught' and the OM/W is long gone. might as well shift all the evil that way. It's only as wrong as the other person is skeptical. If we believe them, it works; if it works they're free.

 

For example, my H blamed the OW in one case. I made him write his confession which is great to review sometimes. He called her "eager and quite forward in her pursuit" and "well aware that I was married and had a kid." He described himself as "flattered by her aggressive overtures," having "never been around a woman who was so aggressive and demonstrative in her flirting." Now, does that make him a victim? Hardly and, of course, it sounds bizarre coming from a man. But it's sort of what your wife is doing. Why does anyone get that margin? The fact is they responded to every advance and overture. The "predators" were not working in a vacuum. I also found it offensive that he tried to pass it off on her, implying she was a slut. I even asked him what she would say about his characterization of their affair. This woman then met and married his brother; they've been together almost 30 years.

 

Just for general hilarity and enjoyment, here's more of his ludicrous attempt at victimhood with no hope of resistance: "I decided to introduce her to you with the hope that once she saw that I did indeed have a wife she would back off." You see? He was completely defenseless in the face of her crotch-grabbing ways and wiles! Also confirms his complete abdication of responsibility since only my purity and innocence finally got her off his back. Unbelievable.

[VeryBrokenMan]

I want to speak to the sub-topic of VBM's wife's OM predator and his inclination to give this a margin.

 

I think that a certain kind of WS (like mine) - a certain kind of person - is used to living by blame-shifting and excusing themselves from taking responsibility. Like anything, it's a spectrum. I tend to be on the opposite end and am only now learning NOT to blame myself for everything. So that's one thing. The other is that they're here, expected to fix things in the marriage even though they're now officially 'caught' and the OM/W is long gone. might as well shift all the evil that way. It's only as wrong as the other person is skeptical. If we believe them, it works; if it works they're free.

 

For example, my H blamed the OW in one case. I made him write his confession which is great to review sometimes. He called her "eager and quite forward in her pursuit" and "well aware that I was married and had a kid." He described himself as "flattered by her aggressive overtures," having "never been around a woman who was so aggressive and demonstrative in her flirting." Now, does that make him a victim? Hardly and, of course, it sounds bizarre coming from a man. But it's sort of what your wife is doing. Why does anyone get that margin? The fact is they responded to every advance and overture. The "predators" were not working in a vacuum. I also found it offensive that he tried to pass it off on her, implying she was a slut. I even asked him what she would say about his characterization of their affair. This woman then met and married his brother; they've been together almost 30 years.

 

Just for general hilarity and enjoyment, here's more of his ludicrous attempt at victimhood with no hope of resistance: "I decided to introduce her to you with the hope that once she saw that I did indeed have a wife she would back off." You see? He was completely defenseless in the face of her crotch-grabbing ways and wiles! Also confirms his complete abdication of responsibility since only my purity and innocence finally got her off his back. Unbelievable.

 

See post #156: she is not saying that I am. Just want to make that clear.

 

I still hold her 100% responsible and she holds herself completely responsible. She has not played the victim at all.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Can a book be shown in evidence to prove you all have read and mastered the same material?

 

 

What has been shown is WS's justified, also referred as made the decision to have sex with an AP using the same basic set of excuses.

 

 

All WW's and WH's use the same logic to justify what they did. They all say the same basic set of excuses such as I love you but I'm not in love with you, barf.

 

 

WW's and WH's are instant professionals at trickle truthing.

 

 

That all OM use the same strategies over and over to turn a wife into a WW. Specially the friend angle and the be there to encourage and hear the WW vent.

 

 

So I can not show a book. Though posts on infidelity forums makes it appear that all WW's and WH's all studied under the same Infidelity Jedi Master.

 

well... thank you for proving my point...you lumped ALL WS into the same group and said they ALL have done the same thing and said the same thing.

 

Some? yes ALL? no

 

I NEVER trickle truthed...I NEVER blame shifted...I NEVER blamed the OM....I NEVER justified my actions... I NEVER said I love you but i am not IN love with you....

[VeryBrokenMan]

well... thank you for proving my point...you lumped ALL WS into the same group and said they ALL have done the same thing and said the same thing.

 

Some? yes ALL? no

 

I NEVER trickle truthed...I NEVER blame shifted...I NEVER blamed the OM....I NEVER justified my actions... I NEVER said I love you but i am not IN love with you....

 

And all those things are very important for reconciliation as you well know. Even though your husband did not feel you did enough, the fact that you did not do those things allowed you to at least survive.

[Mrs. John Adams]

VBM...forget it...some have it set in their minds that you said she was a victim and that the om was a predator and even though you have now explained exactly what you meant a hundred times...some are not listening.

 

I hear what you are saying....

 

Your wife is not blame shifting...she has accepted full responsibility for her actions.

 

The om was a player and she was vulnerable....he knew how to manipulate her....which does not excuse her choice to cheat....and neither you nor she is saying it does.

[Mrs. John Adams]

And all those things are very important for reconciliation as you well know. Even though your husband did not feel you did enough, the fact that you did not do those things allowed you to at least survive.

 

exactly....it took me entirely too long to understand remorse...to actually FEEL the pain i caused him...but i never blamed him, or trickle truthed him.

 

I thought being sorry was enough. It isn't. and remorse is very different from being sorry.

[merrmeade]

well... thank you for proving my point...you lumped ALL WS into the same group and said they ALL have done the same thing and said the same thing.

 

Some? yes ALL? no

 

I NEVER trickle truthed...I NEVER blame shifted...I NEVER blamed the OM....I NEVER justified my actions... I NEVER said I love you but i am not IN love with you....

But, Mrs. Adams, you are unique to me - from what I've read here, and I don't think you can speak for all WSs - not by a long, long shot. You are a unique individual, in fact. Not many people are able or willing to self-examine and own up to the results as you do.

 

At the same time, I agree we cannot put all WSs in a box either. I see all kinds — the narcissist repeaters, the true-love-found-my-soulmate romancers, the ONS what-have-I-done group and then a much smaller leftover set that consider themselves the majority that have a few traits from all three. I'm sure you could make a case for the exit affair rationalizers and a few others, but just saying I agree not all follow the same script but maybe there're not so many scripts. In any case. YOU and my WH are not alike as WSs.

 

I already said something about this on "How can WS BS heal ..." but that thread kind of played out already - so putting modified version here:

I've been wanting to say this for a while. That is, I have a hard time putting the

WS

whose betrayal consisted of a single

ONS

affair on the same footing as, say, one whose

EA

/

PA

was a LTA or a serial cheater

WS

who had several relationships over many years. I mean, I see where some of the stages may be similar for the

BS

afterward — e.g.,

BS

may have ongoing depression or trust issues — but otherwise isn't it easier for the

BS

to give a margin when it was just a

ONS

? Or the concomitant question: Is healing harder if the betrayal is bigger?

[JohnAdams]

I've been wanting to say this for a while. That is, I have a hard time putting the WS whose betrayal consisted of a single ONS affair on the same footing as, say, one whose EA/PA was a LTA or a serial cheater WS who had several relationships over many years. I mean, I see where some of the stages may be similar for the BS afterward — e.g., BS may have ongoing depression or trust issues — but otherwise isn't it easier for the BS to give a margin when it was just a ONS? Or the concomitant question: Is healing harder if the betrayal is bigger?

 

I did see this post on the other thread and started to reply, but held off. Yes, I think the degree of the affair can make a difference. I sometimes read about the WS having an EA and I think I wish that was all it was or the person who had an EA on-line never even meeting the other person. But, it is all cheating. If my wife had a one year affair could we have reconciled? My head says no, but , I was not in that situation so you never know until it happens to you. I do know in our case many things fell in line and if just one small thing was different, there is a good chance we would have divorced.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade...I agree with you 100 % you cannot lump all ws together and that was my point.

 

Just like not all BS are alike.

 

no two infidelities are alike.

 

Each is different and has to be treated as such. I was not trying to pick an argument....I simply wanted to point out...my infidelity is different...the way i handled it was different....the way my husband handled it was different.

 

We did MANY things wrong....and we try to help others not to make the same mistakes we made.

 

Imho...infidelity...whether an EA, or PA, or ONS, or LTA....is damaging and destructive and hurtful....regardless of length etc. Betrayal is betrayal....

 

Now having said that...we all have lines...some decide to divorce immediately for an EA...some decide to reconcile after a 2 year full blown affair.

 

There is no right or wrong answer...it is what is best for YOU....and many times we don't know where that line might be until it is crossed.

 

There is no good cheater....your husband may not be humble enough or understand remorse....or even be capable of feeling the pain he caused you.

I am not "better" than he is....because i do understand and have progressed...i am simply more blessed. Blessed because John gave me a second chance and because he gave me time.

 

Some BS...just can't reconcile...and that is ok. Healing comes in many forms....and the bottom line all of us who infidelity has touched....need healing.

[drifter777]

At some point if this works she will have to forgive herself for us to be whole and then I will share my thought then.

 

Don't worry your pretty little head about this. Cheaters love to forgive themselves, forget the whole thing, and are disgusted if BS brings it up.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Really? so you cheated and know this for a fact or are you just speculating about it?

 

yep...ALL cheaters love to forgive themselves, forget the whole thing, and are disgusted if BS brings it up. every single one of them.

[purplesorrow]

Don't worry your pretty little head about this. Cheaters love to forgive themselves, forget the whole thing, and are disgusted if BS brings it up.

 

Even while divorcing, my stbx isn't disgusted when I bring it up. Sometimes, he brings it up. He still struggles on how to forgive himself. Not everyone is the same nor approaches their unique to them situation the same.

[SolG]

I agree with much of what has been written here about the distinction between emotion and action. That love the feeling can be contradicted by the demonstable act of loving; that they are not mutually exclusive at all. To take this to the the question under consideraton; can a WS love his/her W/H as they 'should', and still engage in an A? IMO the answer is yes.

 

I think some (not all) WSs do love their H/Ws before, during and after an A. To me, it is absolutely possible for people to feel one way, but for reasons various act in a manner at odds with those feelings. But at a price.

 

I've worked with a few men over the years that are absolutely devoted to their W and family. (I limit this to men; while I'm sure there are women who act this way, I have only been exposed to men.) When you see them together, it is obvious that they and their Ws love each other and that they place a high value on their family unit. However, these very same men engage in ONSs on every business trip where the can. Via a combination of opportunity, entitlement and a low probability of getting caught they allow themselves permission to act at odds with the feelings they have for their Ws. Until they get caught...

 

Then there are the WSs that fall via the slow insidious not just friends route. They too can feel great love for their SO... yet bit by bit induldge in incongruent actions. This is where rewriting history comes in; some WSs have to do this to survive the dissonance created BECAUSE they still love their BSs. They know they are behaving in a way that does not align with their feelings and morals and it causes great anguish. The choices they have to deal with the dissonace are change the behaviour, or change the feelings. Some choose the latter and rewrite their history to strike out the love so the behaviour can then be rationalised.

 

I think this is partly why DDays are usually so catalyctic for some WSs. They come face to face with not only the possible loss of their family, but also with the raw pain and disappointment of their BS. The WSs emotional reaction to seeing their BS like this can reawaken the conscious realisation of their love and how far their behavour has strayed from demonstrably showing it.

 

These examples are of course not incusive of all As; there are so many possibilities. But I would say to BSs that it don't think it always follow that an A proves that your WS does not feel love for you the way they 'should'; but it does mean that they are not loving you (behaviour-wise) the way you 'should' be loved when they indulge in that behaviour.

 

I think the key to reconciliation may be in finding out why they chose a path of divergence, and how to get the feelings and actions to converge again in a way that works for your M.

 

Just my thoughts...

[Seachan]

Really? so you cheated and know this for a fact or are you just speculating about it?

 

yep...ALL cheaters love to forgive themselves, forget the whole thing, and are disgusted if BS brings it up. every single one of them.

 

Mrs. JA - your situation seems almost like a separate classification of cheating than what most of the posters here are discussing. A ONS, immediate confession, 30+ years of faithful M following the event. Also the fact you were a victim of CSA puts you in a different category - like maybe there was an element of mind-conditioning or hypnotic draw to your AP. Not that you weren't responsible, but the disassociation or compartmentalization that CSA victims describe seem to compel behavior that is not necessarily coherent with their character.

 

The fact that other posters' comments touches a nerve with you - even though your situation is clearly not the same (LTA's, serial cheating, on-going lies and deception) - is interesting. Why the need to be so defensive when what they describe does not apply to you? Do you need validation?

 

What most BS's are grappling with in this topic thread is if they take the chance to reconcile what are the chances their WS cheats again? Everyone's worse nightmare. You and Mr.JA are clearly at a different stage of healing your A. Not everyone had the benefit of full disclosure after a one-time violation. It is wise in that case for a BS to be wary. Know what they are getting into as they try to open up again to their WS.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am really glad you asked me this question....the answer is simple.

 

My heart is so full of compassion for those touched by infidelity....and it pains me when others make general derogatory statements about WS...lumping them all together...and yet who may indeed be doing everything in their power to heal their BS...

 

There are certainly others out there who did a bad thing....but who are trying so hard to do what is right...and yet there are those who seem to be insensitive to the pain they also feel.

 

Sometimes words used are so cutting...even to the BS who finds himself "defending" the person he loves. I think back to when John first posted and people told him how horrible i am and how he should divorce me.... How i would certainly cheat again. I have heard it all....

 

I don't need validation...I know who i am...i know where my relationship with my husband is. I just want us to all be sensitive...to be truthful about our own situations...but to be less judgmental of others.

 

If you say...my ws did so and so...that is a fact...that is truth. But to speculate and tell someone else that their WS will react a certain way or do a certain thing is just ridiculous.

 

We are not all the same...and it is wonderful to have a place to share ideas and help each other. But can't we do it in kindness and without the venom?

[JohnAdams]

I think it is kind of ironic that this just came up. Just minutes before this post, I made a remark to Mrs. JA on how compassionate she had become to people suffering from infidelity, both the bs and ws. For many years, we for the most part just did not discuss it. Healing is a life time process. We all learn and hopefully we can share what we learn to others who find themselves in a similar situation.

[road]

Mrs. JA - your situation seems almost like a separate classification of cheating than what most of the posters here are discussing. A ONS,

 

To me there is a big difference between out one evening, meeting someone and then hooking up that night. That is a one night stand.

 

 

To of flirted and interact over the course of a college semester. Is an EA. Then one night to hook up brings the EA into a PA. Yes the PA happened once. Though this EA turned PA is more then a ONS. Specially when the WW had agreed to the time and place to hook up a second time with the OM. The only thing that stopped the second hook up was that the OM cancelled.

 

 

Owning something is not using words to minimize. As the media likes to use the phrase do damage control. Or putting a spin on it.

 

 

There is a difference between saying a WW once had sex with the OM and having a ONS.

Edited March 10, 2015 by road