Cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to?

[drifter777]

I agree with most of what you said but this point I don't. Why does it have to be forever tarnished?

 

For me, and many other BH's, it is forever tarnished because it cannot be undone. I wonder why this concept is so difficult for many of you to understand. If I commit a felony it doesn't matter how repentant I am - I will be disqualified from many jobs because of the crime I committed. Telling a prospective employer that I've changed my life but I cannot change the past sounds good, but I can't undo the crime. I am forever tarnished.

 

Is that not part of forgiveness? Yes someone deeply hurts you but holding on to that hurt and thinking the relationship is tarnished cannot be a healthy way to live.

I don't want to get into another forgiveness debate. Suffice it to say that - no, the facts are not changed by forgiveness. And people don't "hold on" to the hurt - it holds on to them.

[KBarletta]

As with my post on the prior page, "opportunity" is key. We simply cannot control who we are attracted to but we can control what we do about it.

 

This is true. I have been married six years, during which time I have been approached three times and given the opportunity to cheat, with women I was extremely attracted to. Two of these were situations in which I was out of town, alone, on business and would have been nearly impossible to be found out. Each time, I thought about A/ How I would feel about myself and B/ How much I loved my wife, and how much it would hurt her, and myself, if I were to go through with it. The decision to say "no" could not have been easier.

[VeryBrokenMan]

I've never found forgiveness for my WW - simply because I will always resent her for what she did, and as long as there is resentment there can be no true forgiveness.

 

A lot of BS redefine forgiveness because we think it's something we HAVE TO do. IMO it isn't. You can continue to be with someone and love them, and yet not forgive them for the pain they caused you.

 

Forgiveness is given to yourself, it has nothing to do with the WS. It allows you to be free of the pain and does nothing for them.

[Rainbowlove]

Forgiveness is given to yourself, it has nothing to do with the WS. It allows you to be free of the pain and does nothing for them.

 

You are on the right path, my man.

 

Even if you decide your marriage cannot overcome, you will be able to move on in your life and find true healing and peace for you.

 

You sound so much like my wife. It's refreshing to read your process.

 

I wonder what separates the BS who is able to get to where you are and those who choose to even attempt to go there?

[VeryBrokenMan]

And people don't "hold on" to the hurt - it holds on to them.

 

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. You control your thoughts and you alone and you can choose to let that go.

[Rainbowlove]

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. You control your thoughts and you alone and you can choose to let that go.

 

Very Broke Man,

 

You made need to change your username soon...to Cannot Be Broken Man.

[HereNorThere]

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. You control your thoughts and you alone and you can choose to let that go.

 

Respectfully, maybe you can control you thoughts, but no everyone can. Ever hear of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? Some people severe intrusive thoughts that they cannot control and I am one of them. I've tried the SSRI, SNRI, TCA, you name it prescriptions, been in talk therapy for a number years, etc.

 

Instead of trying to control my intrusive thoughts, I've learned to not give them significance, but it doesn't go away, ever. Look at the times on my post(s), doesn't it look like I get much sleep? That's the amount of sleep I get I get with sleeping medication that would have you out for DAYS. I have to take combination of 2 benzodiazapines just to get a few hours. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, but at the same time, I wouldn't be as successful because I spend so much time researching because reading helps shut off the thoughts.

 

Using yourself as a baseline for human behavior isn't always appropriate. We are all so vastly different.

Edited March 6, 2015 by HereNorThere

[Arieswoman]

Spectre - post #4, you said

 

To be fair the bible also tells us we should execute people for working on a Sunday. Probably not the best thing to source for advice on..well, anything.

 

I believe that that example was taken from the Old Testament. Those of us who are Christians believe that the OT was superceded by the New testament.

 

In the NT it is made very clear that the only reason for divorce under God's Laws is adultery.

 

More perspective here ;- Adultery: A Bigger Problem Than Just One Sexual Act | Divorce Minister

[Rainbowlove]

Respectfully, maybe you can control you thought, but no everyone can. Ever hear of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? Some people severe intrusive thoughts that they cannot control and I am one of them. I've tried the SSRI, SNRI, TCA, you name it prescriptions, been in talk therapy for a number years, etc.

 

Instead of trying to control my intrusive thoughts, I've learned to not give them significance, but it doesn't go away, ever. Look at the times on my post(s), doesn't it look like I get much sleep? That's the amount of sleep I get I get with sleeping medication that would have you out for DAYS. I have to take combination of 2 benzodiazapines just to get a few hours. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, but at the same time, I wouldn't be a successful because I spend so much time researching because reading helps shut off the thoughts.

 

Using yourself as a baseline for human behavior isn't always appropriate. We are all so vastly different.

 

I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about real DSM IV diagnosis's.

[HereNorThere]

Spectre - post #4, you said

 

 

 

I believe that that example was taken from the Old Testament. Those of us who are Christians believe that the OT was superceded by the New testament.

 

In the NT it is made very clear that the only reason for divorce under God's Laws is adultery.

 

More perspective here ;- Adultery: A Bigger Problem Than Just One Sexual Act | Divorce Minister

 

Matthew 5:27-30New International Version (NIV)

 

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[a] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

[HereNorThere]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about real DSM IV diagnosis's.

 

Uncontrollable intrusive thoughts are hardly limited to people with an OCD diagnosis.

[drifter777]

I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about real DSM IV diagnosis's.

So what was he referring to with his blanket statement? People who have PTSD also have intrusive thoughts that the sufferer cannot control. So who gets to say that I control the intrusive thoughts that I suffer with? You?

[VeryBrokenMan]

You are on the right path, my man.

 

Even if you decide your marriage cannot overcome, you will be able to move on in your life and find true healing and peace for you.

 

You sound so much like my wife. It's refreshing to read your process.

 

I wonder what separates the BS who is able to get to where you are and those who choose to even attempt to go there?

 

The difference is I just decided to move on with my life and not to be bitter and hurt the rest of my life.

 

I gave my emotions their full range for about 4 months. I screamed, yelled, cried. I let it ALL out, the anger, the sadness, the devastation. I reached rocked bottom on January 24th about three months from DDay and I asked her to leave for the third and last time in those three months. I WAS DONE. She had her bag packed. She was crying, I was crying. It was the most intense emotional thing I've ever experienced. And then everything changed, it got really real fast for both of us that night. We had been at that point twice before and pulled back both times. Both times were almost just as intense. But that night was different, I stopped caring if she left and I stopped wallowing in the pain. We talked way into the night and she never left.

 

The next day things were different. She was candid and I was calm. Everything was suddenly on the table. She started answering everything in detail. No more "I don't remember" or any of that BS.

 

A few days later we saw our MC and I told my wife I was moving on without her but she could choose to stay in my life by her actions. My IC had helped me realize the week before that being bitter and hurt does nothing to hurt her and was making me miserable. I could still expect things from her and moving on did not give her a free pass to act as she had. And it did not excuse the pain she had caused. It's just not giving her the control via that pain any more regardless if we split or not. She could choose to join me in the rest of my adventure but she must grow, change her thinking and choose to help me heal.

 

I still have moments when I feel the pain but I try to let go of it quickly and not dwell on it. She has responded by opening up about the affair and her thinking like she never did before. She is alert for these moments and when they hit she comforts me. She took control of the reconciliation. She started bringing up the affair to talk about it. She often knows I'm having trouble before I do.

 

Sometimes it takes someone being the better person to bring out the best in someone else and I think that is what happened. I took the high road and stopped trying to punish her with a punishment that would never really work anyway. Her seeing me move on and being happy with or without her really had an impact. It removed any control she had from the situation.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Respectfully, maybe you can control you thoughts, but no everyone can. Ever hear of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? Some people severe intrusive thoughts that they cannot control and I am one of them. I've tried the SSRI, SNRI, TCA, you name it prescriptions, been in talk therapy for a number years, etc.

 

Instead of trying to control my intrusive thoughts, I've learned to not give them significance, but it doesn't go away, ever. Look at the times on my post(s), doesn't it look like I get much sleep? That's the amount of sleep I get I get with sleeping medication that would have you out for DAYS. I have to take combination of 2 benzodiazapines just to get a few hours. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, but at the same time, I wouldn't be as successful because I spend so much time researching because reading helps shut off the thoughts.

 

Using yourself as a baseline for human behavior isn't always appropriate. We are all so vastly different.

 

I was wrong to say that. You are right I'm able to do that and understand that others may not be able to.

[HereNorThere]

I was wrong to say that. You are right I'm able to do that and understand that others may not be able to.

 

Nah, I still get what you are saying, no need to apologize. In a way, you are right. Like I said, I may not be able to control my thoughts, but I can decide to give some significance and let some go. I think this probably the "control" that most people have.

 

After all, if you could really control you thoughts, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

[sidney2718]

I've talked to my wife about this and she does profess a deep love for me that has not changed from before, during or after. She tells me that she never had any thoughts of not doing it in terms of losing me, she never even thought about that as a possibility to her cheating. She says she simply took US for granted which I think is the truth. She took a lot of the things she has been given for granted. So I think that is where the entitlement comes in.

 

But in the end I think it comes down to love or the type of love. She says she loves me but somehow in her twisted thinking love does not mean you can fulfill your own desires. That is something we are working through. I'm trying to see the affair as having a deep meaning to how she feels about me and what her love is and she says it was "just a choice she made" and that her love for me is strong and stronger than ever now. It's very hard to understand.

 

I think I get it. I think she's being very honest. She never intended to leave you and she never thought you'd leave her. In fact she probably thought you'd never find out, the affair would run its course, and you'd never know.

 

As for "love does not mean you can fulfill your own desires" in some way it does. She knows you love her and somehow deep in her mind she felt that you, whom she intended to spend her life with, would not mind her sampling some of what she willingly gave up for you.

 

It is something like going to the movies and seeing a romance and projecting yourself onto the characters. For an hour or so you become totally invested in your own pleasure watching the film. You don't worry about your spouse at all. They are, you assume, totally ok with your involvement.

[sidney2718]

To be fair the Bible also is where the institution of marriage is defined-and marriage is a religious concept, not civil-and also is heavily against infidelity. It is true that the Bible does say that Israelites who worked on the Sabbath would be put to death but you are entirely missing the context of that command and why the punishment was so severe. So don't cherry pick.

 

Yes, but the Bible (Old Testament) also provides for multiple wives and provides easy divorce by the husband. And so of course we cherry pick.

[VeryBrokenMan]

I think I get it. I think she's being very honest. She never intended to leave you and she never thought you'd leave her. In fact she probably thought you'd never find out, the affair would run its course, and you'd never know.

 

As for "love does not mean you can fulfill your own desires" in some way it does. She knows you love her and somehow deep in her mind she felt that you, whom she intended to spend her life with, would not mind her sampling some of what she willingly gave up for you.

 

It is something like going to the movies and seeing a romance and projecting yourself onto the characters. For an hour or so you become totally invested in your own pleasure watching the film. You don't worry about your spouse at all. They are, you assume, totally ok with your involvement.

 

I think this really sums up what happened pretty well. She has said that first paragraph almost verbatim to me. She got lost in the attention, it snowballed and she never considered the consequences in the moment. She never considered what it meant for US or how it would have affected us. After they had sex the one time she felt the crime had already been committed and she was hooked on the attention she was getting so she went along and did it again. She's very honest now and has said it could have gone on for a longer time had she not been caught.

 

But I go back to my original question: something allowed her to do that while still loving me. And being happy in our marriage. Entitlement? Selfishness? Love style? Just not into me as much as I am into her?

[drifter777]

The difference is I just decided to move on with my life and not to be bitter and hurt the rest of my life.

 

I gave my emotions their full range for about 4 months. I screamed, yelled, cried. I let it ALL out, the anger, the sadness, the devastation. I reached rocked bottom on January 24th about three months from DDay and I asked her to leave for the third and last time in those three months. I WAS DONE. She had her bag packed. She was crying, I was crying. It was the most intense emotional thing I've ever experienced. And then everything changed, it got really real fast for both of us that night. We had been at that point twice before and pulled back both times. Both times were almost just as intense. But that night was different, I stopped caring if she left and I stopped wallowing in the pain. We talked way into the night and she never left.

 

The next day things were different. She was candid and I was calm. Everything was suddenly on the table. She started answering everything in detail. No more "I don't remember" or any of that BS.

 

A few days later we saw our MC and I told my wife I was moving on without her but she could choose to stay in my life by her actions. My IC had helped me realize the week before that being bitter and hurt does nothing to hurt her and was making me miserable. I could still expect things from her and moving on did not give her a free pass to act as she had. And it did not excuse the pain she had caused. It's just not giving her the control via that pain any more regardless if we split or not. She could choose to join me in the rest of my adventure but she must grow, change her thinking and choose to help me heal.

 

I still have moments when I feel the pain but I try to let go of it quickly and not dwell on it. She has responded by opening up about the affair and her thinking like she never did before. She is alert for these moments and when they hit she comforts me. She took control of the reconciliation. She started bringing up the affair to talk about it. She often knows I'm having trouble before I do.

 

Sometimes it takes someone being the better person to bring out the best in someone else and I think that is what happened. I took the high road and stopped trying to punish her with a punishment that would never really work anyway. Her seeing me move on and being happy with or without her really had an impact. It removed any control she had from the situation.

This is great for you! To be able to heal and move past infidelity in 4 -5 months is a wonderful accomplishment.

 

You do understand that I'm not you, right? That many people are unable to accomplish what you have accomplished? Whether its 4 - 5 months or years or longer than that, some of us will likely never make it to where you are. Thing is, many of us thought we were at the same place you are after about, oh ... say 4 -5 months. I was. I successfully compartmentalized and then took that compartment and stuck it away in the back of my mind and moved forward. Of course, within a couple years I realized that what I did was a bunch of bullsh*t - but that's just me. You will be different, I'm sure of it.

[HereNorThere]

Yes, but the Bible (Old Testament) also provides for multiple wives and provides easy divorce by the husband. And so of course we cherry pick.

 

Exactly. I don't want all the rules, fire and brimstone, misogyny, etc. Just give me the forgiveness and living forever part.

[sidney2718]

I'd say that's probably the case.

 

The diaper scenario was just about how love isn't all about hearts, flowers, and romance. Most of the time it's pretty un-romantic in fact.

 

Love is shown through commitment and having your spouses back no matter what.

 

I am not disagreeing with you. But I would go further. Love is also making her favorite drink for her in the evening after the kids are in bed, watching the TV show together that you don't really care for, and taking her to the restaurants that she likes.

 

In other words, love includes letting her do much of what she wants.

 

Why is sex different? I think that, for most people, there are two reasons. One is the loss of trust. The other is fear that he or she will enjoy being with the affair partner to the extent that they basically leave you.

 

Trust also seems to come down to fear of being left. We fear that bolt from the blue in which, over dinner, the spouse says: "I'm sorry dear but you'll have to do the dishes. I'm leaving you."

 

So in my view it comes down to being abandoned. And that probably goes back to our childhood fear of losing a parent.

[VeryBrokenMan]

This is great for you! To be able to heal and move past infidelity in 4 -5 months is a wonderful accomplishment.

 

You do understand that I'm not you, right? That many people are unable to accomplish what you have accomplished? Whether its 4 - 5 months or years or longer than that, some of us will likely never make it to where you are. Thing is, many of us thought we were at the same place you are after about, oh ... say 4 -5 months. I was. I successfully compartmentalized and then took that compartment and stuck it away in the back of my mind and moved forward. Of course, within a couple years I realized that what I did was a bunch of bullsh*t - but that's just me. You will be different, I'm sure of it.

 

Gotta love sarcasm.

[No Limit]

Well yes that is exactly it. We all feel temptations, we all still feel attractions to others. What stops us from acting on that is how much we love the person we are with. Well, also with how much self respect we have with ourselves, and how much overall dignity we have.

 

This is why I always shake my head when you hear someone spewing excuses about how they cheated because the relationship was in a bad place or they had a big fight. See, the true test of a relationship is how you react during the hard times, NOT the good times. When push comes to shove you need to show you love your partner. Anyone who cheats..shows they just don't. It's easy to be faithful when you are happy, fulfilled, etc. That is no true test at all. That is like saying a person should get a drivers license because they showed they can slowly drive a car down an empty street. No, you need to show your driving instructor you can handle the TOUGH stuff. Same here.

 

I take it one step further, I feel you don't love your spouse one bit if you cheat. Some disagree, and since I don't feel like arguing about that, I will just say if you cheat, as the OP says: you sure as hell do not love your spouse enough.

 

The first post hit home for me.

[Rainbowlove]

The difference is I just decided to move on with my life and not to be bitter and hurt the rest of my life.

 

Yep, because with or without your wife, you have to find a way back to happiness and letting go of the hurt. Not an easy task, but surely not impossible.

 

Think about those people who are wrongly imprisoned for decades and they come out of prison with forgiveness in their heart - not hate for the people who wronged them. Why is that?

 

There are BS who will end their marriage and find peace in that and eventually forgiveness, too.

 

There are BS who will stay married and work their way with the WS toward healing and forgiveness.

 

There are BS who end their marriages and hang on to every little hurt their WS did to them and it only eventually ends up hurting themselves and future relationships and they use it as an excuse to be angry and bitter about life and the cards they were dealt.

 

I still have moments when I feel the pain but I try to let go of it quickly and not dwell on it. She has responded by opening up about the affair and her thinking like she never did before. She is alert for these moments and when they hit she comforts me. She took control of the reconciliation. She started bringing up the affair to talk about it. She often knows I'm having trouble before I do.

 

My wife and I did this dance for a while. Do we talk? Don't we talk? My wife always knew when I was struggling before I did. I know when she's bothered too...but we tip toed around afraid to say the wrong thing...but we realized we had to talk about the pain and loss to move through it.

 

That meant I had to be willing to listen to things I may not have been prepared to hear.

 

And the same for my wife.

 

Now, though, we talk...and even actually laughed about it for the first time this week. In a light hearted way...

 

Sometimes it takes someone being the better person to bring out the best in someone else and I think that is what happened.

 

This is so true. I fully understand why your wife loves you more now than ever.

 

I'm sure the affair has brought out a depth in you that she didn't know possible, or even you knew about yourself. Your ability and willingness to work towards forgiveness with her showed her how much you are capable of and how much you care for her and your life together. At at time when she can probably barely stand herself or forgive herself.

 

Keep working on you for you.

[truncated]

I really believe that there are people who can love their spouse very much but still have an affair if they are put in an extremely stressful circumstance.

 

The affair does not negate the love, rather, it is a symptom of a very troubled mind.

 

After we lost our daughter, we went to a support group for other parents who's children had made the same choice ours did. Guest speakers would come in, and one of them made the point that parents in that situation have a higher than average rate of affairs. Paradoxically, they are not cheating because they don't love their spouse but because they do love them and don't feel they can add more to the burden they are already carrying by unloading their pain on them.

 

She also said some get angry and an affair is a way of lashing out, not at their spouse but at themselves for the guilt they feel for not being able to stop their child. Some are also angry, extremely angry at the situation , which makes them feel even more guilt.

 

This doesn't excuse their behavior, but I also don't think that their behavior is borne out of not lvoing their spouse.

 

In fact, it is the opposite.