Cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to?

[Lion Heart]

I'm going to ask my wife about this tonight. I wouldn't want her to feel this way forever. I'd rather her divorce me.

 

If that is true, how do people recover, find healing and move forward?

 

Are you saying recovery isn't possible at all?

 

As a BW I feel like never using the words "recovery" nor "reconciliation" nor "saving the marriage". It IS a matter of semantics for me. That marriage was shot and killed in my mind on D Day. WH shot it when he betrayed me months before at the ONSET of his betrayal.

 

As WH has stayed living with us and is attending IC and MC to sort out his head space. And Should we be able to build an entirely NEW relationship that is better for both of us then I'll call that rejuvenation. Like a piece of native bush land after a bushfire. Hopefully most of the sh** was burnt and rejuvenation can occur. There will always be the loss of the beauty it had before. The old trees and sweet animals. It's all dead. Will they return? They can't they're dead. But new species may. Who knows. The innocence of it is ashes. Absolutely tarnished forever. But in rejuvenation not ALL is lost. Beauty can occur again. Maybe even ENOUGH to hide the spectre of the burnt branches still poking through the lushness.

 

IMHO another misjudgment of cheating spouses is their ability to restore all AFTER the A. Too late. It's like trying to hose a bushfire and expecting all to be "normal again". The bushfire that they started themselves!

 

This analogy could go on but I think my point is made sufficiently.

 

LH

[Lion Heart]

MiniMariah posted in a different thread:

 

"cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to"

 

Agree or disagree?

 

I've talked to my WW at length about this very topic. My love dictates that I could never hurt her by cheating. Is that what is really wrong when someone cheats? That their type of love does not prevent them from having someone else? Because so many WS's seem to profess love for their spouse yet they still cheat.

 

Ofcourse! It's a no brainer really.

When a person commits to another in marraige they are making promises. The BIG one is to be faithful. THIS is the material point! In fact the ONLY one that matters.

 

When a person is CONSCIOUSLY making MANY MANY DECISIONS along the road to Cheater Land, then consummating with sex acts OUTSIDE their marraige whilst the BS is being a faithful chump, then ofcourse the WS doesn't love their spouse "the way they're supposed to" because they were SUPPOSED to be faithful. They still want the gravy train or lifestyle BS provides but that's greed, not love.

 

If there was "love" in the A from WS to AP then I'd certainly know it was a done deal on the previously marital relationship ever continuing in any intimate form.

 

Furthermore if they were actively planning a future with AP even in a caravan, motor home or cardboard box BUT were "rudely highjacked" by BS before the white charger arrived then wtf?

What on earth is the point of trying anything ever again?

 

When WSs are motivated to remain with BSs only through guilt or fear then the love it needs SO much has already been spent.

 

IMO only.

 

Lion Heart.

[aliveagain]

So to tie back into the original question posed in this thread, does a WS who has been "aggressively" pursued somehow have greater love for their BS than a more willing cheater? Are they due more easily granted forgiveness?

 

Not sure how you'd make this determination since almost every WS claims after-the-fact that "I didn't want to do it", "The sex wasn't great", "I tried to break it off", etc. And in VBM's case , he has the transcript of his wife's post DDay call to the OM to understand how she REALLY feels...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the love they feel for their spouse, they do it because they want to do it and that's all of it. It's up to the betrayed spouse if they can live with that truth and the imbalance it creates.

[merrmeade]

I've talked to my wife about this and she does profess a deep love for me that has not changed from before, during or after. She tells me that she never had any thoughts of not doing it in terms of losing me, she never even thought about that as a possibility to her cheating. She says she simply took US for granted which I think is the truth. She took a lot of the things she has been given for granted. So I think that is where the entitlement comes in.

 

But in the end I think it comes down to love or the type of love. She says she loves me but somehow in her twisted thinking love does not mean you can fulfill your own desires. That is something we are working through. I'm trying to see the affair as having a deep meaning to how she feels about me and what her love is and she says it was "just a choice she made" and that her love for me is strong and stronger than ever now. It's very hard to understand.

No, disagree. Not hard to understand. I've had these conversations, too. But neither my BH nor your WW will disagree that AT THE TIME THEY WERE CHEATING they were simply NOT thinking about their spouses, whether they loved them or not. They were simply following their own needs and desires. Period. End of story.

[ladydesigner]

Oh I absolutely agree the WS does not love the BS the way they should by cheating. It is quite simple to understand.

[merrmeade]

I said to my H as recently as 2 days ago that IF he had loved me and thought about that WHEN he was cheating, he could not have done it. Therefore, he cannot say that still he loved me. He did not disagree or comment (which accepts there is no rebuttal).

[merrmeade]

No, it doesn't matter - the ultimate decision was to cheat knowing it could cause a ton if harm....

No, no, no, and a million times No. There simply is no "knowing" or thinking about consequences and THEN making a rational decision at the time. If there's any thought in that direction, it's "S/He must never find out" with a vow that s/he won't. That's maybe supported by rationalizations, including faults with the marriage or spouse, "what the hell" thoughts, "it was stupid," "i'll never do it again," etc. And when it's over, it's just over and they bury it and never consider telling anyone, least of all the BS.

[Can't comment on the

WS

/

OM

/

W

fairy tale types, the world of "true love" and "meant to be together," more compatible, yadayda people. My

H

was all about self, no true love pretenses. Just sex and what or whoever made him feel virile, desirable or superhuman.]

[VeryBrokenMan]

VBM -

 

This comment totally blames the OM and places NONE of that blame onto YOUR wife - who IS responsible for the way SHE participated!

 

Take hi out of that equation - he could have been ANY man - it was your wife who did this to you by destroying the vow she made with YOU.

 

It's only on her - she was his willing participant! I'd want to know why. More than that I'd want to know what she's changed about herself that makes her not likely to do it again! It has nothing to do with you - or her OM = only to do with her lack of SOMETHING deep inside her core being that lacks character and integrity.

 

And until she completely changes herself - she's still likely to cheat again.

 

Reading that ONE paragraph that I posted does imply that I totally blame the OM. But if you've read a lot of what I've posted here you would see that I hold my WW completely, 100% responsible for the affair. She had every chance to say stop, no, bye, etc. She never did. It's ALL on her and she admits that completely. She has never once tried to say she is a victim, that he was a predator. I say that.

 

The situation was (and remember I have ALL the texts) that he contacted her first on Facebook having only met her once before. He is a player, she is not worldly. She has led a sheltered life and her experience with men is entirely based on how I've treated her like a queen with respect and care. She thinks the very best of everyone and did not believe there was evil in the world. She trusted everyone.

 

He knew she was married. He gave her compliment after compliment. He was aggressive in his pursuit. He has been divorced three times and has only been married a year the last time. He has a criminal record that includes sexual assault. Do you really think someone that has been divorced 3 times and was convicted of a sex crime cares about what they are doing to a 31 year marriage? He was and is a predator in every sense of the word. I suspect that had she resisted that we might be dealing with rape instead of infidelity. He wanted her for sex and was willing to say anything to get there.

 

But all that does not excuse the fact she never said NO. So she deserves all the blame for the affair and she 100% accepts that it was her choice. And I blame her completely. But it never would have happened had he not been a predator.

[VeryBrokenMan]

It is misleading to use the term "predator" to describe an affair.

 

A lion preys upon a gazelle. A rapist preys upon his victim. Missing from both of those relationships? Consent.

 

A WS entering into an affair has not been victimized by a predator. If they were, police should be called and the hotel room (or where ever) treated like a crime scene...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

She was victimized by a very experienced man who has perfected his craft. Read up on psychopaths... they exist and they are predators.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Do you believe in your gut that your wife respects you?

 

I believe that she deeply respects me as a person. She had no respect for our marriage, our commitment or us in general during the affair.

[HereNorThere]

No, no, no, and a million times No. There simply is no "knowing" or thinking about consequences and THEN making a rational decision at the time. If there's any thought in that direction, it's "S/He must never find out" with a vow that s/he won't. That's maybe supported by rationalizations, including faults with the marriage or spouse, "what the hell" thoughts, "it was stupid," "i'll never do it again," etc. And when it's over, it's just over and they bury it and never consider telling anyone, least of all the BS.

[Can't comment on the

WS

/

OM

/

W

fairy tale types, the world of "true love" and "meant to be together," more compatible, yadayda people. My

H

was all about self, no true love pretenses. Just sex and what or whoever made him feel virile, desirable or superhuman.]

 

 

There's a reason why they go to such great lengths to lie and rationalize. Trust me, if they really weren't thinking about the consequences, they wouldn't try so hard to deceive. The fact that they know they have to keep it a secret shows that they know full and well what they are doing would you hurt you tremendously.

 

Just because you couldn't do something like that knowingit is going to hurt someone doesn't mean this applies to a cheater. This is what makes them different. This is what makes them cheaters.

[HereNorThere]

I believe that she deeply respects me as a person. She had no respect for our marriage, our commitment or us in general during the affair.

 

 

Sorry, but you don't treat someone you respect the way you've been treated. If you think she respects you, you are sadly mistaken.

 

Wow, really?

[VeryBrokenMan]

Call it anything you want but it doesn't change the facts. Any man that "aggressively(VeryBrokenMans words) pursues" a stay at home married woman is an attack on the marriage and predatory. Low life creep as VBM has referred to him works too. She could have shut him down but she didn't, her conscious choice, doesn't change the fact that he aggressively pursued her. He planned his actions, she went for it, to me that's predatory, again you can call it anything you want.

 

Absolutely true. He was the first link in the chain that led to the cheating and he was the grease that moved the chain forward. She chose not to break the chain, that's on her and only her.

 

But only a vile, uncaring, despicable person does that to a marriage by starting the process in an aggressive way. That is totally predatory.

[minimariah]

He wanted her for sex and was willing to say anything to get there.

 

the point is - she wanted that sex, too.

& she went there.

 

But it never would have happened had he not been a predator.

 

you can never be sure about this, unfortunately.

it's beautiful when you have someone who WANTS and chooses to be faithful to you, monogamous in a relationship with you. it sucks when you have someone who is faithful to you only because they aren't being complimented & chased by someone else.

 

many have that "my spouse is only as faithful as his/hers options" situation at home.

[VeryBrokenMan]

She's equally responsible in her situation, but that doesn't mean they're aren't predators out there. Manipulative people prey on the naïveté and trusting nature of the less experienced in some cases. This isn't limited to romantic relationships considering the amount of fraud a deception in other facets of our lives.

 

However, I'm not don't see OPs wife as any sort of victim in this scenario.

 

That phone call she made to OM completely throws any sort of empathy (or better yet, sympathy) I had for her out the window.

 

I don't see her a victim in any way, but I do see him as a predator. The call was damaging in a big way but I don't see how that call changes how the affair started? Yeah, she fell for him in a big way that's obvious. But it never gets to that point unless he pursues her.

[merrmeade]

I know I am not a BS but I fully believe in forgiveness and healing. Otherwise life would be a horrible place. I believe in love, too. My feeling is, get over it, embrace your life, or move on to find happiness elsewhere. It is there to be had.

Oh god. "I believe, I believe..." It's not about 'belief'! It's not a choice. Belief is mental; trauma and suffering are visceral. And until there is a choice, ie, until they've processed the pain, there is no choice.

 

"Forgiveness... healing... love... happiness..." — easy platitudes from the outside looking in. But "get over it"?! Who says that to real adults that have been through what all these people have described?! Certainly not someone who knows from personal experience. I've only ever heard the OW/M say that. It's just callous, cruel, rude and disrespectful. These people are describing life-altering damage that they received. Read some other threads about BS pain. And if you haven't been betrayed, if it wasn't done TO you, then you have no clue what's happened to them and no right to judge or advise (if that's what you call it - it's certainly not 'counsel'). "rainbow" and "goody." fits.

[VeryBrokenMan]

Or she could have been letting him down gently, trickle truthing him so to speak.

 

That is basically what she has said about the call. She has said she was trying to end it without hurting him, she did not see AT THAT TIME how much of a predator he was. She had tried to end once before and he starting telling her how much he loved her. That he could not live without her. Does anyone here really believe that he loved her in any way? After 4 weeks? Absolutely not, he's played this game many times and he was stringing her along to get sex.

 

And she was very emotional and angry about getting caught. She was angry about having it end like it did. Let's face it that call was two days after her life just exploded in her face. She was at the very least deeply infatuated and hurt. She had not slept in two days, I had been at a motel and NC. We had just spent 4 hours talking about things that morning. At that point I had told her I was meeting my attorney the next day and the papers were ready. She did not know I was not filing for divorce until after she made that call.

 

But she was also relieved it was over and she has said that several times now. She wanted out regardless of what she told him.

[merrmeade]

[Just reported myself to moderators for #141. Should have ignored but reacted to a particular post/poster. Not sure if it's a violation or off-topic, so please ignore and keep on... ]

[sidney2718]

If the answer is indeed "No" as it relates to cause or forgiveness, then why is the above important or even notable?

 

Several BS's have insisted their WS was somehow conned, lured, tricked, victimized or preyed upon.

 

Ultimately, does it matter ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

If they are going to attempt reconciliation, the answer is yes, it does matter. If they divorce, then you are right, it does not matter.

[Mr. Lucky]

Trust me, if they really weren't thinking about the consequences, they wouldn't try so hard to deceive. The fact that they know they have to keep it a secret shows that they know full and well what they are doing would you hurt you tremendously.

 

Hard to deny the truth in this. An insanity plea rarely works in a carefully plotted crime as the details themselves are proof of coherence and lucidity.

 

Each lie, deception, half-truth and omission is proof a WS knows the cause and effect, "fog" on not...

 

Mr. Lucky

[sidney2718]

No, disagree. Not hard to understand. I've had these conversations, too. But neither my BH nor your WW will disagree that AT THE TIME THEY WERE CHEATING they were simply NOT thinking about their spouses, whether they loved them or not. They were simply following their own needs and desires. Period. End of story.

 

I think this is very important. I think one needs to take a somewhat longer view of marriage. For many people the thrill goes away after a marriage of many years. The marriage is good, the spouses love each other, but they've tried all the exciting things to do in bed many times over the years. They've gone on romantic vacations. It is all good.

 

But it is not heart trembling excitement any more. Spouses are taken for granted. Roles are accepted. And things can go very wrong as merrmeade points out.

 

That isn't the only way a longer term marriage can go. The marriage may not be perfect. Perhaps he doesn't cuddle with her the way they used to. Perhaps she doesn't say "I love you" the way she used to. Perhaps it is all ordinary. And things can go very wrong as merrmeade points out.

 

But the worst is when one spouse feels actual resentment. Perhaps the spouse is a nag who never lets go. Perhaps the sex has vanished. Perhaps there is just a lack of touching or whatever. And her things can not only go wrong, there is a good probability that they WILL go wrong.

 

The affair isn't started to hurt the spouse. It is started because it fills a need of the CS. If the spouse is thought of at all, it is in terms of "they will never find out" or "they'll forgive me once they realize that I had needs too."

 

There is far too much infidelity (and there has always been a lot of infidelity) for it to be simply a character accident. It has got to come from the fact that men and women don't communicate and don't understand what the other wants from a marriage. I'm not even sure that the young even KNOW what they want from a marriage.

 

And oh yes, I've been married for a long long time.

[sidney2718]

Reading that ONE paragraph that I posted does imply that I totally blame the OM. But if you've read a lot of what I've posted here you would see that I hold my WW completely, 100% responsible for the affair. She had every chance to say stop, no, bye, etc. She never did. It's ALL on her and she admits that completely. She has never once tried to say she is a victim, that he was a predator. I say that.

 

The situation was (and remember I have ALL the texts) that he contacted her first on Facebook having only met her once before. He is a player, she is not worldly. She has led a sheltered life and her experience with men is entirely based on how I've treated her like a queen with respect and care. She thinks the very best of everyone and did not believe there was evil in the world. She trusted everyone.

 

He knew she was married. He gave her compliment after compliment. He was aggressive in his pursuit. He has been divorced three times and has only been married a year the last time. He has a criminal record that includes sexual assault. Do you really think someone that has been divorced 3 times and was convicted of a sex crime cares about what they are doing to a 31 year marriage? He was and is a predator in every sense of the word. I suspect that had she resisted that we might be dealing with rape instead of infidelity. He wanted her for sex and was willing to say anything to get there.

 

But all that does not excuse the fact she never said NO. So she deserves all the blame for the affair and she 100% accepts that it was her choice. And I blame her completely. But it never would have happened had he not been a predator.

 

This is so important in understanding how infidelity occurs. It is only one example out of many that could have been written. It explains why so many WS's can not explain why the affair took place. For them the steps taken were each very small, possibly very exciting, and thinking about marriages at that moment was not the top priority.

 

That doesn't make the infidelity anyone else's fault. But it does help us understand why it happens. And if we can understand that, we might be able to stop it better.

[VeryBrokenMan]

the point is - she wanted that sex, too.

& she went there.

 

 

 

you can never be sure about this, unfortunately.

it's beautiful when you have someone who WANTS and chooses to be faithful to you, monogamous in a relationship with you. it sucks when you have someone who is faithful to you only because they aren't being complimented & chased by someone else.

 

many have that "my spouse is only as faithful as his/hers options" situation at home.

 

Yes she did, twice. And you make an excellent point that I need to give some thought to.

[Mr. Lucky]

If they are going to attempt reconciliation, the answer is yes, it does matter. If they divorce, then you are right, it does not matter.

 

I understand the intent and spirit of what you're saying, perhaps we disagree on the proper course of action.

 

I don't think I'm doing myself or my WS a favor if I have to delude myself into thinking she was an unwilling or unwitting participant/victim/prey in her own A. That's not the type of reconciliation I'd want because:

 

1). It sets us up for future failure based on the same premise. What happens when the next fast-talker comes into her life?

 

2). I'd always have resentment over the way it was handled.

 

The possibility of true reconciliation is based on honesty and accountability, including my portion of that I project on my WS...

 

Mr. Lucky

[sidney2718]

There's a reason why they go to such great lengths to lie and rationalize. Trust me, if they really weren't thinking about the consequences, they wouldn't try so hard to deceive. The fact that they know they have to keep it a secret shows that they know full and well what they are doing would you hurt you tremendously.

 

Just because you couldn't do something like that knowingit is going to hurt someone doesn't mean this applies to a cheater. This is what makes them different. This is what makes them cheaters.

 

That's a very sad commentary on the human race. There are LOTS of cheaters. I'd guess the number is somewhere around 20%. It is a lot of flawed people.

 

Rather than dumping it all on the WS, I find it more rewarding to try to understand WHY it went down the way it did.

 

Don't forget. Most of the folks who post here are spouses who have been betrayed by spouses who are NOT demanding divorces. Is that because they are evil and want to torture their BS? Or does it come from the fact that reality brings clarity to the situation? I don't know. I find it eternally fascinating.