Cheating means that you don't love your partner the way you're supposed to?

[Mrs. John Adams]

I have a feeling VBM's wife accepts responsibility for what she has done....and is showing remorse in order for VBM...to feel the way he does about Reconciliation.

 

I am of course speculating....and that tends to be dangerous...because i don't really know.

 

The point of coming here is to share information....and i am sure all of us wish we did not have first hand knowledge....Beach....you are certainly not alone my friend. We want to share the hurt and share the knowledge...and in my case...i really want to help others understand my heart. It is difficult sometimes being the WW....but i was also the BW...so i understand both sides. I have great compassion for all who have been touched by infidelity. But especially my BH....

 

I agree using the word predator....does make it sound like she did not have a choice...and of course she did....I did.

We all have a choice...whether to cheat or not.

 

perhaps...the word player would be a better more accurate fitting word.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I want to add something...

 

For those who divorce....and i believe divorce is absolutely the right answer for many....i think it is a matter of self respect in many cases.

 

To ask a BH if his wife respects him...is an entirely different matter.

 

I did not respect my husband when i betrayed him....or i would never have behaved the way i did.

 

But his compassion, his willingness to learn to forgive me....taught me to respect him in a way i never did before.

 

My husband never gave up on me. He was willing to give me a second chance. He was willing to work toward reconciliation...he was willing to rebuild our relationship.

 

I have the utmost admiration and respect for my husband...he is an amazing man.

[JohnAdams]

I will admit to this day, I hate the OM. That does not mean I completely blame him. My wife was not raped, she did what she did willingly. She always told me to blame her not the other man.

 

I do think, especially early on in reconciliation, you want to hate someone and you do not want to hate your spouse so you funnel it to the AP.

 

Having said that, I always knew it was a calculated decsion to cheat that my wife made. She had many opportunities to not go through with it.

 

I also know the om was calculating, cunning, smooth, a player who knew how to prey on naive or unhappy women. He had that reputation even prior to my wife. It amazed me that she could buy the bs from someone with his reputation.

 

So, yes, there are low life men (and women) looking to take advantage of someone when they can. However, that does not excuse the WW from making such a decision.

[autumnnight]

I will admit to this day, I hate the OM. That does not mean I completely blame him. My wife was not raped, she did what she did willingly. She always told me to blame her not the other man.

 

I do think, especially early on in reconciliation, you want to hate someone and you do not want to hate your spouse so you funnel it to the AP.

 

Having said that, I always knew it was a calculated decsion to cheat that my wife made. She had many opportunities to not go through with it.

 

I also know the om was calculating, cunning, smooth, a player who knew how to prey on naive or unhappy women. He had that reputation even prior to my wife. It amazed me that she could buy the bs from someone with his reputation.

 

So, yes, there are low life men (and women) looking to take advantage of someone when they can. However, that does not excuse the WW from making such a decision.

 

I believe your view to be very rational and balanced.

[atreides]

my take on "happy" is the issue at hand... it cannot be looked at as a baseline state.

 

If we are to say x spouse is not happy and they are preyed on by "predators", this does not answer a huge swath of infidelity of those that that say they are "happy"

 

Problem i have with all of this is that one can be happy one day and not the next, i cannot logically see how one of these two states is more susceptible to cheating than the other anymore than blaming marital issues.

 

Happy people can and do cheat, "we" have seen this here on LS and on other forums, i have witnessed personally where it is all about the "thrill and fun." << waywards own words

 

cheating is entirely on the waward, not the betrayed and all that is needed is attraction and opportunity and most importantly the "flaw" as some argue or for me "the start of the addiction."

 

I just don't look at it as "hunter and prey" cheaters know what they are doing and no excuse of vulnerability or what have you is enough to rationalize it away.

[autumnnight]

And I think any BS with the ability of complex thought can hold their WS responsible AND be ticked at the OM/OW. Thebidea that it has to be either or is absurd. Nit to mention how SOMEONE ELSE works through their own pain is not my business.

[dichotomy]

As several have mentioned - what it means to "love" someone varies from person to person.

 

The mistake I made with my current wife/marriage was not to ask what loving someone meant to her - and what unloving meant. I have come to the general conciseness that my wife for a few years essentially became polyamorous , and she also has intimacy disorders (therapist term not mine).

 

So - our love has been incompatible from the beginning but she knew this and its why she lied and hid "her love definition" to obtain my kind of love - which is an "all in/exclusive/do anything" kind of love. Also my love language is defined as "acts", which includes acts of sex, another thing we don't share.

 

Whats interesting is that my wife is terrified that I might cheat - not because SHE sees cheating as a absolute unloving act, but she knows if I cheat it would mean I have no love for her. A double standard if there ever was one.

 

We also had a discussion about unconditional love - which she claimed she had for me - but which I proved to her she did not have with a few hypothetical tests.

 

So it depends - some can cheat and say they love their BS, but their definition of love is probably not what their BS's thinks love is.

Edited March 7, 2015 by dichotomy

[sidney2718]

This makes so much sense. I remember when I was married, and my husband would not touch me no matter what I tried to do or be and no matter how much I explained or begged. There was something in me that just couldn't reconcile his "I love you" with being ignored, starved for affection, etc. Especially when he KNEW how it hurt. I began to believe that while he thought he loved me and maybe even did in his way, when it came down to it, he really just...didn't. He didn't love me the way wives and husbands are supposed to love. It was actually freeing in a way, because it freed me from the weight of thinking all the emptiness in our marriage was ME. How COULD we have a marriage if he didn't love me?

 

Sometimes people have different love languages. In your case that is very possible. It would be good to try to work that out.

[sidney2718]

VBM -

 

This comment totally blames the OM and places NONE of that blame onto YOUR wife - who IS responsible for the way SHE participated!

 

Take hi out of that equation - he could have been ANY man - it was your wife who did this to you by destroying the vow she made with YOU.

 

It's only on her - she was his willing participant! I'd want to know why. More than that I'd want to know what she's changed about herself that makes her not likely to do it again! It has nothing to do with you - or her OM = only to do with her lack of SOMETHING deep inside her core being that lacks character and integrity.

 

And until she completely changes herself - she's still likely to cheat again.

 

It takes two to have a physical affair. We blame the wandering spouse and frequently ignore what the other person has done.

 

We have to face it. Seduction into an affair is very common. It isn't that the WS doesn't deserve blame for this, there is enough to go around. But more attention has to be paid to the other person.

 

Marriage tends to become ordinary. A person, say the wife, can become upset because of something that happened at work. The husband seems to listen, but it soon becomes obvious that he thinks it trivial and is not really paying attention.

 

The wife talks to a friend from work. He hears her out and is sympathetic. He offers calming words and advice. She appreciates it. From there to seduction is a small step, especially if the other man has played this game before.

 

We can say that it is all the wife's fault, and in a way it is. But in the upset of the work situation and somebody offering comfort about it, infidelity is the last thing on the wife's mind.

[autumnnight]

Sometimes people have different love languages. In your case that is very possible. It would be good to try to work that out.

 

It takes two. He wasn't interested. We are divorced. But he didn't cheat so I guess he loved me just fine.

[sidney2718]

This is a really interesting thread with lots of great thoughts, thanks everyone.

 

I feel this way about my WH, not that he doesn't love like he is "supposed" to, but that we have different ideas about what love is. To me love is so many things and you can love someone for a million different reasons. But if you truly love someone you respect them, want to listen to them, comfort them, try to understand them, gladly lend a hand when they need it, support them, try not to do things we know cause them pain, but give them a heart felt apology when you do (and we all do). My H just doesn't get that. He didn't have good role models of that growing up. He has always been "big man on campus" and hasn't had to put out a whole lot to get his fix of adoration or love in most of his relationships (including friendships, family and even work). People are drawn to him because he is fun and extremely charismatic, but if you look closer, he's not really giving much of himself to any of those relationships.

 

Communication is the key. It is legendary among many men that women can go on and on about something that happened to them during the day as if it was of major importance. Often this sort of talk finds the man with his ears turned off.

 

It works the other way too. When a man unloads about something it can be that he does not want to hash it over and over again. He wants advice about what to do about it. Practical advice, not "oh my" and "that's too bad".

 

One thing I've found in my life is that I get along amazingly with my wife's friends, mainly because I listen to them. They tell me all sorts of things, including some they shouldn't. But I know that they don't want advice. That would be mixing into their business. They just want to vent to a sympathetic ear.

 

My friends think I'm nuts.

[sidney2718]

I do think his chosen word of "predator" hit me hard.

 

That word insinuates she had no choice in what she did. OP, do you feel your wife had a choice? Made a conscious decision to cheat?

 

There are some true predators out there that drug their victims... Is it possible that happened? I don't remember if your wife's affair was a one time thin for ongoing...?

 

On a different thought - I wanted to ask...

 

Do you believe in your gut that your wife respects you?

 

I think that "predator" is just right. People can be manipulated. If they could not the entire advertising industry would vanish over night.

 

We may not like this, but it is true. People can be manipulated and people can be seduced. Does that mean that people have no blame if they cheat? Not at all. But it does mean that the situation is far more complex than it seems.

[atreides]

I think that "predator" is just right. People can be manipulated. If they could not the entire advertising industry would vanish over night.

 

We may not like this, but it is true. People can be manipulated and people can be seduced. Does that mean that people have no blame if they cheat? Not at all. But it does mean that the situation is far more complex than it seems.

 

I disagree, but agree that whatever your opinion is on it, that they are not a victim.

 

I disagree on advertising, it exists as heavily as it does because we are "thick" and beyond price, a whole lot of "i am here" is needed.

[Mr. Lucky]

But it does mean that the situation is far more complex than it seems.

 

Disagree. Marriages are complex, perhaps bad marriages even more so. But infidelity is pretty simple.

 

You might say an unscrupulous financial entity (think Enron) "preys" on investors. But an investor in the market understands, while he can certainly profit, his money is at risk, it can be diminished or lost entirely.

 

A WS makes the same analysis - their entitlement and need for validation vs your happiness, the health of your marriage and your family's future. They look at your risk vs their reward and make a conscious decision.

 

Forgiveness is commendable, I applaud those that can pull it off. But at least be honest about the act you're forgiving your WS for...

 

Mr. Lucky

[aliveagain]

It is misleading to use the term "predator" to describe an affair.

 

A lion preys upon a gazelle. A rapist preys upon his victim. Missing from both of those relationships? Consent.

 

A WS entering into an affair has not been victimized by a predator. If they were, police should be called and the hotel room (or where ever) treated like a crime scene...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Call it anything you want but it doesn't change the facts. Any man that "aggressively(VeryBrokenMans words) pursues" a stay at home married woman is an attack on the marriage and predatory. Low life creep as VBM has referred to him works too. She could have shut him down but she didn't, her conscious choice, doesn't change the fact that he aggressively pursued her. He planned his actions, she went for it, to me that's predatory, again you can call it anything you want.

[HereNorThere]

She's equally responsible in her situation, but that doesn't mean they're aren't predators out there. Manipulative people prey on the naïveté and trusting nature of the less experienced in some cases. This isn't limited to romantic relationships considering the amount of fraud a deception in other facets of our lives.

 

However, I'm not don't see OPs wife as any sort of victim in this scenario.

 

That phone call she made to OM completely throws any sort of empathy (or better yet, sympathy) I had for her out the window.

[aliveagain]

Totally agree with you, she is not a victim, she is as dirty as any other caught cheater. My only point is the affair may not have happened if he hadn't aggressively perused her.

[sandylee1]

I've talked to my wife about this and she does profess a deep love for me that has not changed from before, during or after. She tells me that she never had any thoughts of not doing it in terms of losing me, she never even thought about that as a possibility to her cheating. So I think that is where the entitlement comes in.

 

.

 

I think everyone has a different interpretation of what love means, or in how they display their love.

 

It's much the same as a man (or woman ) that beats their spouse and still says they love them. I can't understand how you can physically harm someone you love though.

 

I think it boils down to entitlement in many cases. I also don't think it's always black and white. I don't advocate affairs, but sometimes as in crimes committed there are mitigating circumstances. Hence the verdict is 'guilty ' , but the punishment is reduced, unlike if there was no mitigation.

 

It DOESN'T mean the act of cheating was RIGHT. It's just saying in some cases there were contributory factors.

[Mr. Lucky]

Totally agree with you, she is not a victim, she is as dirty as any other caught cheater. My only point is the affair may not have happened if he hadn't aggressively perused her.

 

So to tie back into the original question posed in this thread, does a WS who has been "aggressively" pursued somehow have greater love for their BS than a more willing cheater? Are they due more easily granted forgiveness?

 

Not sure how you'd make this determination since almost every WS claims after-the-fact that "I didn't want to do it", "The sex wasn't great", "I tried to break it off", etc. And in VBM's case , he has the transcript of his wife's post DDay call to the OM to understand how she REALLY feels...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

Mr. Lucky

Edited March 8, 2015 by Mr. Lucky

[beach]

So to tie back into the original question posed in this thread, does a WS who has been "aggressively" pursued somehow have greater love for their BS than a more willing cheater? Are they due more easily granted forgiveness?

 

Not sure how you'd make this determination since almost every WS claims after-the-fact that "I didn't want to do it", "The sex wasn't great", "I tried to break it off", etc. And in VBM's case , he has the transcript of his wife's post DDay call to the OM to understand how she REALLY feels...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Of course, but considering that the cheater is usually a know liar - it's impossible to understand where their truth is...

 

And until they get honest (and that's a crap shoot) by changing their behaviors completely - it's safe to think they aren't YET being honest.

 

Every action instills a reaction (or not). No action is still a reaction.

 

For me, you wrong me - I'm going to react! Swift and harsh punishment. Lots of pertinent words would follow about how I feel to an inappropriate action. What the other person does with my reaction would allow me to understand if the R deserves MY effort to repair the damage done.

 

If I don't see extreme change = it's over.

[road]

So to tie back into the original question posed in this thread, does a WS who has been "aggressively" pursued somehow have greater love for their BS than a more willing cheater? Are they due more easily granted forgiveness?

 

Not sure how you'd make this determination since almost every WS claims after-the-fact that "I didn't want to do it", "The sex wasn't great", "I tried to break it off", etc. And in VBM's case , he has the transcript of his wife's post DDay call to the OM to understand how she REALLY feels...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

Does not matter even if a WW was pursued she willingly allowed the pursuit to happen. She did not tell the OM eeewww drop dead loser. WW did not file a RO against the OM.

[sidney2718]

She's equally responsible in her situation, but that doesn't mean they're aren't predators out there. Manipulative people prey on the naïveté and trusting nature of the less experienced in some cases. This isn't limited to romantic relationships considering the amount of fraud a deception in other facets of our lives.

 

However, I'm not don't see OPs wife as any sort of victim in this scenario.

 

That phone call she made to OM completely throws any sort of empathy (or better yet, sympathy) I had for her out the window.

 

You may well be right. But just as wives rugsweep a husband about their affair, they also rugsweep the OM. And for the same reasons.

[sidney2718]

So to tie back into the original question posed in this thread, does a WS who has been "aggressively" pursued somehow have greater love for their BS than a more willing cheater? Are they due more easily granted forgiveness?

 

No. The one has little to do with the other. But she was aggressively pursued, as opposed to being the pursuer, just for example.

 

Not sure how you'd make this determination since almost every WS claims after-the-fact that "I didn't want to do it", "The sex wasn't great", "I tried to break it off", etc. And in VBM's case , he has the transcript of his wife's post DDay call to the OM to understand how she REALLY feels...

Mr. Lucky

 

This is a bit complicated. It is probably true here more often than we think. Why? Because if the wife really wants out of the marriage, she files for divorce. So we are dealing with those who are at least somewhat ambivalent.

 

And as I said above, you might be right about the post DDay call to the OM. Or she could have been letting him down gently, trickle truthing him so to speak.

[Mr. Lucky]

But she was aggressively pursued, as opposed to being the pursuer, just for example.

 

If the answer is indeed "No" as it relates to cause or forgiveness, then why is the above important or even notable?

 

Several BS's have insisted their WS was somehow conned, lured, tricked, victimized or preyed upon.

 

Ultimately, does it matter ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[beach]

If the answer is indeed "No" as it relates to cause or forgiveness, then why is the above important or even notable?

 

Several BS's have insisted their WS was somehow conned, lured, tricked, victimized or preyed upon.

 

Ultimately, does it matter ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

No, it doesn't matter - the ultimate decision was to cheat knowing it could cause a ton if harm.

 

I was married a LONG time - propositioned many, many times - and never once did I consider cheating. The opportunities were there - but I knew I would be forfeiting MY self respect if I chose to cheat.

 

Now... Respecting one who cheats on me? Nope, never gonna go that way. I can't respect a man who makes unilateral decisions that intentionally harm me.