beatcuff Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 He spent days sulking but wouldn't tell me what was wrong. I know I'm smart but I'm not a mindreader exhibit 1 --- the lines of communication were broken. a discussion needs two (or more) if only one is doing the talking then its not. i never laid blame. and not sure how to fix (too many variables). it appears in your case you were fully aware of the situation, many never saw it coming. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 My answer to the original question is yes - they would still cheat knowing they would cause that pain - most would - not all, but most. I think you are correct. We can see someone in pain, we can empathise, but our empathy can't extend into knowing really what the other actually person feels, especially if we have never been in that position. I think we take our cues from our own experiences and those of our friends re similar hurts and from what the media shows us re cheating. The media shows us cheating all the time, it shows us reconciliations that occur in two episode of soap or in half an hour of a film or in the chapter of a book, it shows us "love stories", where the good looking people cheat on and leave the dowdy, prudish, angry wife or the loser, abusive, alcoholic husband. We see the beautiful, "cheating" people flourish, and the "loser" BSs are hardly even mentioned again. WE rarely see the real long term hurt cheating causes to BSs, because frankly it is boring for viewers. Much more exciting to see the cheating "lovers" be together against all odds, than to wallow in grief with the BSs. Thus cheating is seen as some romantic escapade, and not as a tragedy for those left behind. If everyone was to experience a high voltage electric shock every time their actions hurt people, then there may be some more empathy for BSs in this world, but until then I guess it is much easier for a cheater or anyone considering cheating to downplay any hurt caused, in favour of the highs and romance of the affair. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Betrayed&Stayed Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Does a BH opinion count with regard to this question? Not sure about that. From my perspective my WW knew her LTA would devastate me. She knew that it would make a wreckage of our M. She knew it could lead to D. She knew that it would have a bad impact on our children. But she thought she would not get caught. IMO people have affairs because they want to. That want drives them to find fault with their spouse and their M as a way to rationalize fulfilling their want. That want makes everything else not matter. This is my viewpoint as well. My WW entered the A believing I would never find out. She ended up breaking off the A before I went into investigation mode. I never did find out until she confessed years later. During her A she knew she was risking divorce. But because of her justifying her A, she made our marriage less valuable in her eyes. While in fog I believe she viewed the loss of our marriage as a small price to pay for being single again. I also believe the stigma of being an adulterous divorcee played on her psyche. Once she confessed she again knew that I might choose to divorce her. She knew it would hurt me, but she had NO IDEA of the breadth and depth of that pain. During our first MC session she said her goal was for us to re-do our vows on our next anniversary which was 4 months away. I had a very strong response to that pipe dream. Don't ever underestimate the power of denial and a person's ability to rationalize their actions. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
truncated Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 How many times has it been said by someone who is in an affair that "it just sort of happened" and that they didn't go looking for it. If this is the case ( and I have my doubts about that) then how could knowing how much it would hurt really make a difference? Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) How many times has it been said by someone who is in an affair that "it just sort of happened" and that they didn't go looking for it. If this is the case ( and I have my doubts about that) then how could knowing how much it would hurt really make a difference? It does not "just happen". They make choice after choice that leads them to sex. I'm certain my WW would never cheat again because of the pain she has seen me in and the pain she has been in. I think she would rather be beaten that have to re-live that. At any one of those decision points she would feel that pain again and choose to stop. Some WS don't feel that but I know my WW does and that in part is why we are trying to reconcile. Edited March 9, 2015 by VeryBrokenMan Link to post Share on other sites
BlackHat Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I'm certain my WW would never cheat again because of the pain she has seen me in and the pain she has been in. It must be comforting to have such strong certainty. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 It is...I feel exactly the same way. I can only speak for myself...but i am 100% sure my husband will NEVER cheat on me and i would be willing to bet he feels exactly the same way about me. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
beach Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 It does not "just happen". They make choice after choice that leads them to sex. I'm certain my WW would never cheat again because of the pain she has seen me in and the pain she has been in. I think she would rather be beaten that have to re-live that. At any one of those decision points she would feel that pain again and choose to stop. Some WS don't feel that but I know my WW does and that in part is why we are trying to reconcile. I thought this exact same thing at my 10 year mark when my then H cheated. All was well for 10 more years... Then I found evidence again that was indisputable. Needless to say... We divorced at the 20 year mark. Don't assume they won't cheat again - it happens - sorry to say. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
HereNorThere Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm certain my WW would never cheat again because of the pain she has seen me in and the pain she has been in. You have learned nothing, grasshopper. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 It is simple and lazy thinking to think that cheaters would cheat no matter what, like they are programmed or genetically flawed. People who believe this need to because they cannot deal with the complexity of the truth. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 You have learned nothing, grasshopper. Could it be possible that maybe it's you who has learned nothing? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
HereNorThere Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing." - Socrates Link to post Share on other sites
fellini Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Indeed. It seems that those who divorced after their first encounter with a WS are predominantly bitter and aggressively against anyone even suggesting that not all cheaters are ogres. I dont understand if they are free of horrible monstrous cheaters, why they have to behave like monsters here! How can someone who did not feel their WS was worthy of a 2nd chance be so sure of themselves telling others not to do so? It is simple and lazy thinking to think that cheaters would cheat no matter what, like they are programmed or genetically flawed. People who believe this need to because they cannot deal with the complexity of the truth. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Could it be possible that maybe it's you who has learned nothing? Actually, the most likely scenario is that the truth of your situation does not fit the "cheaters are defective from birth and have no value" paradigm. Redemption and bitterness cannot coexist. Link to post Share on other sites
HereNorThere Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Indeed. It seems that those who divorced after their first encounter with a WS are predominantly bitter and aggressively against anyone even suggesting that not all cheaters are ogres. I dont understand if they are free of horrible monstrous cheaters, why they have to behave like monsters here! How can someone who did not feel their WS was worthy of a 2nd chance be so sure of themselves telling others not to do so? You don't have to believe that all cheaters are horrible people to know that you can never be certain about these things. Anyone who says they know 100% that their spouse would never cheat, especially when their spouse has demonstrated a propensity for this type of behavior, would be naive at best. Edited March 10, 2015 by HereNorThere 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Indeed. It seems that those who divorced after their first encounter with a WS are predominantly bitter and aggressively against anyone even suggesting that not all cheaters are ogres. I dont understand if they are free of horrible monstrous cheaters, why they have to behave like monsters here! How can someone who did not feel their WS was worthy of a 2nd chance be so sure of themselves telling others not to do so? I have to ask myself why they are still here if divorce was such a better option than reconciliation? Are they not still in pain and bitter? Their posts all indicate they are still hurting, some years later, yet they still say divorce is the only option. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 You don't have to believe that all cheaters are horrible people to know that you can never be certain about these things. Anyone who says they know 100% that their spouse would never cheat, especially when their spouse has demonstrated a propensity for this type of behavior, would be naive at best. Or maybe they would rather believe in redemption than elevate themselves through chosen anger. Link to post Share on other sites
HereNorThere Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I have to ask myself why they are still here if divorce was such a better option than reconciliation? Are they not still in pain and bitter? Their posts all indicate they are still hurting, some years later, yet they still say divorce is the only option. The same reason why people return home from war and develop PTSD. You don't have to be in active war zone to be traumatized by the past. Regardless of whether you choose to stay or leave, some people will always be effected. The difference is that they are choosing to leave their abuser and stop the abuse, which eventually leads to a healthier life. I don't believe that divorce is one size fits all solution. However, there are certain personality characteristics that I think are dealbreakers for me. Trying to shame people for having boundaries really isn't any different than shaming those that have none. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Trying to shame people for having boundaries really isn't any different than shaming those that have none. So basically if VBM shouldn't shame, then no one should shame him. That makes perfect sense. Link to post Share on other sites
fellini Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Two things you seem to overlook. 1. These BS'S council others to divorce as the only solution. They go so far as to claim that trauma disappears. Completely. 100% what they don't say is, "look man, u will live in pain the rest of your life. You can do that with or without your cheater. No, what they say is leave your cheater, find a decent woman (what man doesn't think he found the woman he wants when he has spent 15 years or more with her) and live happily ever after. 2. Why must the majority of BS'S only respect those who chose D? Either you turn a blind eye or you agree with those who taunt any BS that considers reconciliation. I dont need to validate this claim, it's a plain as day fact in LS. The same reason why people return home from war and develop PTSD. You don't have to be in active war zone to be traumatized by the past. Regardless of whether you choose to stay or leave, some people will always be effected. The difference is that they are choosing to leave their abuser and stop the abuse, which eventually leads to a healthier life. I don't believe that divorce is one size fits all solution. However, there are certain personality characteristics that I think are dealbreakers for me. Trying to shame people for having boundaries really isn't any different than shaming those that have none. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
fellini Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'd say they haven't figured out how infidelity works yet. When the majority of cases of infidelity come from long sustained relatively happy marriages, I think its only far to judge the cheater for the cheating. But surely you would agree that one must also judge the X years when the spouse wasn't cheating, wasn't thinking of cheating, wasn't crossing boundaries, was in fact nurturing their marriage. To discount this and focus only on the cheating is to be as guilty as the WS of compartmentalization, IMHB. You don't have to believe that all cheaters are horrible people to know that you can never be certain about these things. Anyone who says they know 100% that their spouse would never cheat, especially when their spouse has demonstrated a propensity for this type of behavior, would be naive at best. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Zenstudent Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'd say they haven't figured out how infidelity works yet. When the majority of cases of infidelity come from long sustained relatively happy marriages, I think its only far to judge the cheater for the cheating. But surely you would agree that one must also judge the X years when the spouse wasn't cheating, wasn't thinking of cheating, wasn't crossing boundaries, was in fact nurturing their marriage. To discount this and focus only on the cheating is to be as guilty as the WS of compartmentalization, IMHB. ?? I don't understand this - I should consider myself lucky if my wife only betrays me once a year? Once a week? Surely, the good days outweigh the bad days... I don't think it's enough to show that you're capable of being faithful... from time to time. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 ?? I don't understand this - I should consider myself lucky if my wife only betrays me once a year? Once a week? Surely, the good days outweigh the bad days... I don't think it's enough to show that you're capable of being faithful... from time to time. How about this: 20 years of faithful, a couple of months of extremely horrific choices, repentance, remorse, and 20 more years of faithful. I don't want to live in a world full of people who, in the above scenario, would ONLY care about the 2 months. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
merrmeade Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) How about this: 20 years of faithful, a couple of months of extremely horrific choices, repentance, remorse, and 20 more years of faithful. I don't want to live in a world full of people who, in the above scenario, would ONLY care about the 2 months.you're not kidding. are you? Because another way to say that is that 40 years cancels out X amount of infidelity. So how much would X be? Four months? Two years? Do we have a ratio for when a BS ought to "just get over it"? Edited March 10, 2015 by merrmeade 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 you're not kidding. are you? Because another way to say that is that 40 years cancels out X amount of infidelity. So how much would X be? Four months? Two years? Do we have a ratio for when a BS ought to "just get over it"? Um...look in your magnifying glass and try to find the phrase "cancels out" in my post. I am asking if you believe a person's entire value should just be tossed aside, along with them, like so much unredeemable garbage when they were faithful for 40 years? Because that is what I read over and over. Once someone has made the choice to cheat, no matter what they were before and no matter how much they change after, nothing they do or become matters, none of it, because they once cheated. There is not one other sin or martial pain inflicted that we treat this way. You can ignore and refuse your spouse for years and people will tell the hurt spouse to "clean up their side of the street." You can beat or scream at your wife and if you go to "anger management" all is forgiven. You can throw away all of your income on gambling, but if you "get in a program" the spouse is expected to be there for support. However, if you are a good person who made terrible choices for a brief season, and those choices involve infidelity, not only is there no hope for you, you were probably evil to begin with. So no, I never said it "cancel out" infidelity. YOU chose to read it that way. Link to post Share on other sites
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