badkarma2013 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think I was not clear. There is a difference between simple and easy. Being destroyed by betrayal is not easy. Having to live with the knowledge of what one's partner did to them is never easy. Waking up in a cold sweat from a nightmare mind movie is not easy. Being gut punched in the middle of the day by a flash of your SO with someone else is not at all easy. Ending a marrige blown up by infidelity is not easy. Trying to rebuild a marriage torn down by infidelity is not easy. But the fact that it takes making a conscious choice...and then making that choice again and again, sometimes a thousand times a day, is a fact. I would expect that every time that choice is made it is excruciating in the beginning, then maybe not quite as gut wrenching, then it becomes easier over time, with hard work and a truly repentant WS. And then one day you realize that your WS is no longer wayward in deed or thought or character, and you have to decide, am I going to see them as they are now, or see them as they were? Again, the choice is not easy. But it is simple, and we make it. If we see them as they are now, then we can be open to actually loving them and NOT making sure they never forget who they were. If we choose to keep them in a freeze frame of who they were, then nothing they do matters, and we use them as a constant whipping post. The former is recovery and reconciliation. The latter is a kind of wayward all its own. **************************************************************** Thanks for the clarification ....I somewhat agree.. To R or D is a choice also...As i have stated before ..."many here THINK THEY CAN R...But somewhere within themselves they KNOW they will never get over the lies and betrayal ..,,They continue trying ...triggers (still there)...self doubt (still there) ...self esteem issues (still there )..YEARS later...WHY... What happens IMHO is that both parties now reside in hell ...and end up divorcing when one can no longer take the pain...BS or WS ... I knew at the moment of D-DAY...my marriage was over...I KNEW i would never over her A..and what was shown to me... For some of us here "some hurts will never heal..and some acts of deceit and betrayal will never be forgotten .." 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JohnAdams Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Autumn, I see your point. It is certainly not easy and that is true regardless of your choice to reconcile or divorce. The choice to reconcile or divorce is a very difficult decision. We reconciled, but, I do believe that in many cases divorce is the best choice. I think every betrayed spouse has a breaking point that would make reconciliation impossible. For many men, if the affair goes physical, it is a deal breaker. I am not sure if anyone knows what their deal breaker is until you are in that situation. I would always have thought a PA would have been a deal breaker. I think getting pregnant by the om would be a deal breaker. Having sex in my bed would be a deal breaker. Finding pictures or videos would be a deal breaker. As badkarma pointed out, most people do not realize the trauma an affair causes until you have lived through it. We are successfully reconciled. I never have thoughts that I wish I would have divorced my wife. I do believe if we had divorced, I would have always wondered if we could have saved it. I am a very stubborn and tenacious man. I knew if we separated or divorced it would be over. I knew I could not go back if we separated. I was determined to make our marriage work. We had our rough times. I think I suffered from many of the effects of the trauma of the affair. For years I told my wife I did not like the man I had become. Maintaining a successful marriage is hard work. Going through with reconciliation is even harder work. You have to carefully weigh is your marriage worth it? Is your spouse worth it? I am glad we stuck it out. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
badkarma2013 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Autumn, I see your point. It is certainly not easy and that is true regardless of your choice to reconcile or divorce. The choice to reconcile or divorce is a very difficult decision. We reconciled, but, I do believe that in many cases divorce is the best choice. I think every betrayed spouse has a breaking point that would make reconciliation impossible. For many men, if the affair goes physical, it is a deal breaker. I am not sure if anyone knows what their deal breaker is until you are in that situation. I would always have thought a PA would have been a deal breaker. I think getting pregnant by the om would be a deal breaker. Having sex in my bed would be a deal breaker. Finding pictures or videos would be a deal breaker. As badkarma pointed out, most people do not realize the trauma an affair causes until you have lived through it. We are successfully reconciled. I never have thoughts that I wish I would have divorced my wife. I do believe if we had divorced, I would have always wondered if we could have saved it. I am a very stubborn and tenacious man. I knew if we separated or divorced it would be over. I knew I could not go back if we separated. I was determined to make our marriage work. We had our rough times. I think I suffered from many of the effects of the trauma of the affair. For years I told my wife I did not like the man I had become. Maintaining a successful marriage is hard work. Going through with reconciliation is even harder work. You have to carefully weigh is your marriage worth it? Is your spouse worth it? I am glad we stuck it out. Always a pleasure seeing you and the Mrs post....Well stated..Badkarma Link to post Share on other sites
Seachan Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 **************************************************************** Thanks for the clarification ....I somewhat agree.. To R or D is a choice also...As i have stated before ..."many here THINK THEY CAN R...But somewhere within themselves they KNOW they will never get over the lies and betrayal ..,,They continue trying ...triggers (still there)...self doubt (still there) ...self esteem issues (still there )..YEARS later...WHY... What happens IMHO is that both parties now reside in hell ...and end up divorcing when one can no longer take the pain...BS or WS ... I knew at the moment of D-DAY...my marriage was over...I KNEW i would never over her A..and what was shown to me... For some of us here "some hurts will never heal..and some acts of deceit and betrayal will never be forgotten .." Badkarma, Do you have peace now that you are divorced? Does the divorce help you heal and get over the bitterness of betrayal? Do you still have triggers and anger? Or are you still processing? It seems as if adultery is the worse form of warfare, because it's launched against you by someone you loved. Link to post Share on other sites
drifter777 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Yes, I felt that sex was sacred, precious and only for us as a couple. My wife was a virgin when I married her. I had been with one other girl, and not a good situation at that. I felt very special that I was her one any only. That was taken away and with all the sorrow and remorse in this world can never be returned. I thought she felt the same way. With an affair, an innocence is lost to never be regained. I didn't realize it at D-day time but this (bolded) was a deal-breaker for me. Hiding my head in the sand and praying that time would heal the wound didn't work very well. I would divorce her now - decades later - but extreme circumstances prevent it. See some of my recent posts as to why. The fact that she cannot un-F those guys is the killer. It killed my love for her once and for all. But she's changed enough so that I like her most of the time and I want a companion and need help to raise our grandson. But make no mistake, there are times when I look at her and see nothing but a selfish whore. Yeah, that feeling passes. But I never look at her and see the woman I loved - never. I was told all the details, therefore the mind movies were very vivid. I have to admit, the mind movies still pop up from time to time. The difference is that I can now let it not overtake me. In the past, it would throw me into a depression that would take weeks to shake. I have not been told ALL of the details. She claims to not remember anything she thinks might push me over the edge. I've told her over and over that she doesn't get to make that call and I want everything but she just lies and says I know everything. The details I do know - and I mean about the actual sex - actually helped lessen the disgust factor of my mind-movies. The things she has told me are true - I can tell - and, of course, they are not as wildly disgusting as my imagination made them out to be. This has helped. I think most regulars here know this but I'll save you some time trying to find my "bottom line". I hate myself for coming back and staying married to her. I hate what she did and I will never forgive her. I have come to a place of acceptance in that she was a selfish, hurtful slut for a short time but, over many, many years, has proven she is no longer that person. I believe if she could go back in time she would not have cheated - but only because of all the crap I have given her about it. She felt entitled to cheat and will never admit to me that she is actually happy she did it. Edited January 28, 2015 by drifter777 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JohnAdams Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 The fact that she cannot un-F those guys is the killer. It killed my love for her once and for all. But she's changed enough so that I like her most of the time and I want a companion and need help to raise our grandson. But make no mistake, there are times when I look at her and see nothing but a selfish whore. Yeah, that feeling passes. But I never look at her and see the woman I loved - never. Wow. that is a sad story. I think the bolded (those guys) plural would be a deal breaker for me. One is bad enough. To do it multiple times is just over the top. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I suppose my basic question for those who stay, who regret staying, and who make their wives well aware that they regret it....does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap? Is that part of the secondary gain? This is something I honestly would like to know. Are their men out there (I say men because this seems to be an overwhelmingly male issue) who choose to stay mired so that their wives cannot forget how awful they are/were? Is they part of the desired outcome? Link to post Share on other sites
jm2013 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Autumn, I see your point. It is certainly not easy and that is true regardless of your choice to reconcile or divorce. The choice to reconcile or divorce is a very difficult decision. We reconciled, but, I do believe that in many cases divorce is the best choice. I think every betrayed spouse has a breaking point that would make reconciliation impossible. For many men, if the affair goes physical, it is a deal breaker. I am not sure if anyone knows what their deal breaker is until you are in that situation. I would always have thought a PA would have been a deal breaker. I think getting pregnant by the om would be a deal breaker. Having sex in my bed would be a deal breaker. Finding pictures or videos would be a deal breaker. As badkarma pointed out, most people do not realize the trauma an affair causes until you have lived through it. We are successfully reconciled. I never have thoughts that I wish I would have divorced my wife. I do believe if we had divorced, I would have always wondered if we could have saved it. I am a very stubborn and tenacious man. I knew if we separated or divorced it would be over. I knew I could not go back if we separated. I was determined to make our marriage work. We had our rough times. I think I suffered from many of the effects of the trauma of the affair. For years I told my wife I did not like the man I had become. Maintaining a successful marriage is hard work. Going through with reconciliation is even harder work. You have to carefully weigh is your marriage worth it? Is your spouse worth it? I am glad we stuck it out. I don't know if you've answered this already but how long was your wife's affair? Did she love the OM? Link to post Share on other sites
HereNorThere Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I suppose my basic question for those who stay, who regret staying, and who make their wives well aware that they regret it....does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap? Is that part of the secondary gain? This is something I honestly would like to know. Are their men out there (I say men because this seems to be an overwhelmingly male issue) who choose to stay mired so that their wives cannot forget how awful they are/were? Is they part of the desired outcome? Just to clarify, you mentioned retribution as possible secondary gain, but what were you implying was the primary gain? Link to post Share on other sites
JohnAdams Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I don't know if you've answered this already but how long was your wife's affair? Did she love the OM? She met him in the fall semester of college (he was her professor). They met for "lunch" and did the deed on October 29th (this was the only time she met him privately). I do not think she loved him, but had a crush on him and was infatuated with him. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Just to clarify, you mentioned retribution as possible secondary gain, but what were you implying was the primary gain? I don't know. Maybe that is the primary gain. I cannot fathom how painful it would be. If it is too painful to reconcile, then it seems divorce would be the logical solution. Maybe if someone allows them selves to move forward, they feel the WS got away with it? And none of these questions are meant to be hurtful at all. I really do want to know. The one friend I have whose husband is just...beyond cruel will not divorce him because she feels she has no right. I'm watching her wither away. It is obvious he is miserable too, but I really do think seeing her miserable makes it worth it to him. I'm trying to get my mind around how someone comes to that place because at some point it became her husband's CHOICE to live that way. The kids have slowly begun mistreating her, parroting some of the things they have heard him say. Her affair was horribly wrong. But I cannot understand how someone who has the capacity to see right and wrong enough to know the affair was wrong cannot at least concede that was he has been doing for years ain't exactly admirable. He has actually told her that one reason he won't leave is because he doesn't want her free to find someone who will love her. Link to post Share on other sites
drifter777 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I suppose my basic question for those who stay, who regret staying, and who make their wives well aware that they regret it....does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap? Is that part of the secondary gain? This is something I honestly would like to know. Are their men out there (I say men because this seems to be an overwhelmingly male issue) who choose to stay mired so that their wives cannot forget how awful they are/were? Is they part of the desired outcome? For me, this is ridicules. Why would you assume that WW's "feel like crap"? I think cheaters are able to forgive themselves and move on with their lives and get over it just fine. I also cannot imagine a BS staying just to punish their WS over the cheating. They would have to be sick in other way(s) as well to do something like this. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I think cheaters are able to forgive themselves and move on with their lives and get over it just fine. Drifter...A WS can also struggle with forgiveness just like the BS. Forgiving oneself can be a very difficult thing to do. It can occur and life can go on....but you never get over infidelity. You learn to live with it. You get over a broken arm....or a cold....you don't get over an affair...no matter who committed it. Having a truly remorseful spouse help you carry the burden of the betrayal makes forgiveness possible. Forgiving can be very freeing....for both the WS and the BS...You can forgive...your spouse, yourself....but you don't forget. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Zenstudent Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I suppose my basic question for those who stay, who regret staying, and who make their wives well aware that they regret it....does it make them feel better to know that their wives probably feel like crap? Is that part of the secondary gain? This is something I honestly would like to know. Are their men out there (I say men because this seems to be an overwhelmingly male issue) who choose to stay mired so that their wives cannot forget how awful they are/were? Is they part of the desired outcome? Well, I don't stay to punish my wife, to make her feel like crap, absolutely not, that would be sad indeed. But that doesn't mean that I believe that she feel like crap because of her affair, and it certainly doesn't mean that I totally believe that she could never do it again - on the contrary. Once she demonstrated the capability, I could never feel safe again - the only safety I got left, is the knowledge that I can quit in a split second and that I will be fine - knowing I tried. What makes you think that most waywards feel like crap? 3 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Well, I don't stay to punish my wife, to make her feel like crap, absolutely not, that would be sad indeed. But that doesn't mean that I believe that she feel like crap because of her affair, and it certainly doesn't mean that I totally believe that she could never do it again - on the contrary. Once she demonstrated the capability, I could never feel safe again - the only safety I got left, is the knowledge that I can quit in a split second and that I will be fine - knowing I tried. What makes you think that most waywards feel like crap? I cannot imagine living with someone who wishes they had divorced me and feels trapped with me and NOT feeling like crap. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Zenstudent Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I cannot imagine living with someone who wishes they had divorced me and feels trapped with me and NOT feeling like crap. So, you believe that all waywards expect to divorce? I assume very few would cheat with the purpose of feeling like crap? Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 So, you believe that all waywards expect to divorce? I assume very few would cheat with the purpose of feeling like crap? I don't want to veer off topic, but I don't think what I am saying is that hard to understand. Any rational person likely knows that the spouse they wish they had divorced, feel stuck with, and will never forgive - if said spouse knows all this - is going to feel like crap. So I can only assume that they are okay with their spouse feeling like crap, even if they have repented and worked hard. Otherwise, you would think they would want to either go all in for reconciliation or set their spouse free. Hence my question about secondary gain. I think I am really asking about a very very small and likely disordered percentage of BS's, so it probably doesn't matter. I just happen to know of a couple of cases like that, so I was wondering. I would presume that the mainstream, healthy BS would, with a truly remorseful spouse, eventually be able to work on reconciliation and find some sort of mutual peace or choose to divorce rather than keep the misery going forever. Just like I would hope an unrepentant WS would either GET REPENTANT or do the BS a favor and leave. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Autumn...I would expound upon that a little. John did not think i was remorseful for thirty years...should i have cut him lose? I knew i was sorry....but i never understood exactly what he was looking for....and if he could not tell me...how could i give it to him? SO my question is....is there a time...is there a time limit...that says if you have not done XYZ by this amount of time....we are finished. Or do we just do the best we can and carry the hope that eventually we will get what we need...or do we resolve within ourselves...that this is the best we get...and it is ok. Link to post Share on other sites
HereNorThere Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I don't want to veer off topic, but I don't think what I am saying is that hard to understand. Any rational person likely knows that the spouse they wish they had divorced, feel stuck with, and will never forgive - if said spouse knows all this - is going to feel like crap. So I can only assume that they are okay with their spouse feeling like crap, even if they have repented and worked hard. Otherwise, you would think they would want to either go all in for reconciliation or set their spouse free. Hence my question about secondary gain. I think I am really asking about a very very small and likely disordered percentage of BS's, so it probably doesn't matter. I just happen to know of a couple of cases like that, so I was wondering. I would presume that the mainstream, healthy BS would, with a truly remorseful spouse, eventually be able to work on reconciliation and find some sort of mutual peace or choose to divorce rather than keep the misery going forever. Just like I would hope an unrepentant WS would either GET REPENTANT or do the BS a favor and leave. You're trying to make logical sense out of things are mostly emotional. Sure, you can make the logical decision to stay and forgive for your family, but most people lack the coping skills they need to deal with such a life changing trauma. Instead, their emotional pain turns to depression, anxiety, bad moods and they become bitter, negative people. The WS, which caused the initial problem, ends up having to deal with this newly created depressed, hopeless individual. We all have love/hate relationships in our life, even if they aren't romantic. Tons of people love their mom but do not necessarily treat her well and that's not always a choice. As much as you logically can choose an action like forgiveness, our egos do not always agree with the decisions, hence the cognitive dissonance and lack of rationality. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JohnAdams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Hence my question about secondary gain. I think I am really asking about a very very small and likely disordered percentage of BS's, so it probably doesn't matter. I just happen to know of a couple of cases like that, so I was wondering. I would presume that the mainstream, healthy BS would, with a truly remorseful spouse, eventually be able to work on reconciliation and find some sort of mutual peace or choose to divorce rather than keep the misery going forever. Just like I would hope an unrepentant WS would either GET REPENTANT or do the BS a favor and leave. You are a bit difficult to follow. I do agree that you need to find mutual peace to go forward with reconciliation. Reconciliation does not mean that you forget what happened. It does not mean you put your head in the sand. When your life has been rocked with this kind of trauma, you have a defense that kicks in to protect you from this type of hurt again. This is true, divorce or reconcile. You reach a place that it is good enough that you can live with it, it does not mean you are back to 100%. Same thing with physical ailments, you learn to live with it. What are you going to do? Kill yourself to make the pain go away? I was at a point for many years that I could live with it. I do not think it would have cured anything by divorcing. We finally reached a point that all is well. So, we went from a place that was good to a place much better. This healing process would not have been necessary if there had not been an affair. But, like a bad health incident, you learn to live with it. If a cure comes along unexpectedly, you are jumping with joy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I am probably communicating badly. It would never enter my mind that either spouse would forget the affair. That would be impossible. I would also hope no one ever thought the affair was "ok." What the Adams' describe is a marriage where they were both trying but had a lot of bumps in the road. Where they wanted to stay together but didn't have it all figured out (does anyone?) I am talking about a case where the BH makes a conscious choice for years to remind his wife and their kids of the, who intentionally stops himself from any sort of affection, who willbopenly tell anyone who asks she just oughta be glad she's still under his roof. Who has told her he will never divorce her because he doesn't want to chance that she might find happiness. THAT is not a man who is "just hurting." IMO that is a vindictive jerk who is at least as wayward as his FWW. Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. John Adams Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I think i understand where you are coming from.... A BH who chooses to stay with the WW just to make her life a living hell? I don't personally know anyone in that scenario....and i am glad i don't. To live together out of spite...would be a horrible marriage. I have seen movies like that....the war of the roses comes to mind....they killed each other. I cannot imagine living with someone just to make them miserable....it would be awful for both people...not just one. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
gettingstronger Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Autumn- I know married couples like that who have not experienced infidelity (that I know of) a couple like that who were previously APs- I think some people just thrive on their own drama being miserable- they are difficult to be around and I avoid them at all costs- I think a marriage can be good after infidelity just like I think a marriage can be awful without it- Sadly, no one has the dysfunction market cornered- 2 Link to post Share on other sites
drifter777 Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I am probably communicating badly. It would never enter my mind that either spouse would forget the affair. That would be impossible. I would also hope no one ever thought the affair was "ok." What the Adams' describe is a marriage where they were both trying but had a lot of bumps in the road. Where they wanted to stay together but didn't have it all figured out (does anyone?) I am talking about a case where the BH makes a conscious choice for years to remind his wife and their kids of the, who intentionally stops himself from any sort of affection, who willbopenly tell anyone who asks she just oughta be glad she's still under his roof. Who has told her he will never divorce her because he doesn't want to chance that she might find happiness. THAT is not a man who is "just hurting." IMO that is a vindictive jerk who is at least as wayward as his FWW. What you are describing has nothing to do with infidelity. You are talking about a sick man married to a sick woman. It is a family that will produce sick children. If this crazy BH is as you describe then why doesn't WW take the kids and leave? Or kick him out? Anyone can see this obvious solution - except that they are both sick, emotionally, and prefer to suffer together. Nothing here is the result of infidelity. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 What you are describing has nothing to do with infidelity. You are talking about a sick man married to a sick woman. It is a family that will produce sick children. If this crazy BH is as you describe then why doesn't WW take the kids and leave? Or kick him out? Anyone can see this obvious solution - except that they are both sick, emotionally, and prefer to suffer together. Nothing here is the result of infidelity. I can understand why you would have that opinion. She stays, quite simply, because he has convinced her she doesn't deserve to leave. And why not? Because she is a cheating whore. So yeah, it has a lot to do with infidelity. Anyway, I got the answers I was looking for. Thanks for letting me derail the thread, and I'll stop now Link to post Share on other sites
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