Marriage...what is it good for?

[CALOVELY]

Bold 1: Please tell me what I don't know because I didn't go through it ...please do. In the point made above by the other poster, I asked and listed scenarios where those men might have kept their houses...I never claimed to know the scenario.

 

Bold 2: Assumption that all women that keep the house can afford it? Doe sthis include the ones that make false accusation in order to get the man out as described by a poster above? False accusations happen more that you will believe because these wacky females know it's the easiest way to get a man out

 

It did not seem that you understood since you said "a blood sucking leech won't get their hands on it". How is a person who gets bought out in an equitable distribution a blood sucking leech?

 

No, many women cannot afford the home they chose to stay in, hence my comment about it not always being financially sound. I do not know about a man being forced out but it would seem that would hurt the woman who could not afford the house as well? If he is gone, she is still responsible for the payments. That sounds like a dumb move on her part.

[Tayken]

It did not seem that you understood since you said "a blood sucking leech won't get their hands on it". How is a person who gets bought out in an equitable distribution a blood sucking leech?

 

No, many women cannot afford the home they chose to stay in, hence my comment about it not always being financially sound. I do not know about a man being forced out but it would seem that would hurt the woman who could not afford the house as well? If he is gone, she is still responsible for the payments. That sounds like a dumb move on her part.

 

 

Glad you have come round to seeing what I was describing, and NO it won't be a dump move on the woman's part because she knows the man has to continue paying the mortgage because his credit rating will be in jeopardy if he doesn't.

 

Additionally, if he is not in the home anymore, child support will have to be paid or his wages garnished. If you really want to understand how this really works, speak to a man that has been kicked out or a fellow female who has pulled this stunt...they can better tell you

[CALOVELY]

Glad you have come round to seeing what I was describing, and NO it won't be a dump move on the woman's part because she knows the man has to continue paying the mortgage because his credit rating will be in jeopardy if he doesn't.

 

Additionally, if he is not in the home anymore, child support will have to be paid or his wages garnished. If you really want to understand how this really works, speak to a man that has been kicked out or a fellow female who has pulled this stunt...they can better tell you

 

What I have maintained is that you are applying a scenario that is rare and making it the norm. What I wrote is the norm. The equity in the house is distributed in one way or the other.

 

I would like to talk to a man that this has happened to or a woman who did this but alas, I can find none in my social circle despite half of them being divorced.

 

 

[MissBee]

What I have maintained is that you are applying a scenario that is rare and making it the norm. What I wrote is the norm. The equity in the house is distributed in one way or the other.

 

I would like to talk to a man that this has happened to or a woman who did this but alas, I can find none in my social circle despite half of them being divorced.

 

 

 

And this is what is being missed. Apparently the idea that going to 100 countries gifts one with common sense and critical thinking isn't true...and one can go around the world unfortunately with one's myopic viewpoints and come back just as myopic as one left.

 

No one has suggested that no men "lose out" in divorce, whatever lose out is being defined as, in some of these posts it is: going to jail, never seeing their kids ever again and living in the subway. For anyone to say this is the NORM like MOST married men never see their kids again, become homeless and go to jail because their wife accuses them of abuse is really ridiculous. These are the dramatic cases, not the norm, and like you, I can't think of any real life divorce people actually where this happened. Actually, I'm lying, I can think of one case, my aunt's husband, his ex-wife was a particularly cruel and vindictive woman who alledgedly moved and took the kids with her and didn't let him know (although to this day I'm confused about how your kids got taken away, not out of country and you never bothered to look for them. I don't know all the details of what happened or if they went to court or what. He reunited with them years later and his wages got garnished for the child support he didn't pay). However, he never became homeless neither did he go to jail but went on to remarry and makes a lot of money and had a child with my aunt. He would have a reason to be jaded but still went on to remarry and doesn't go around warning people about marriage...he speaks specifically about his EX as an individual and not "women", since his current wife is a woman and isn't a thing like that.

 

This same aunt, her ex-husband left her and their toddler, they lived in an apartment, he moved out and bought a house in secret in another town after moving up in rank at his firm and she didn't hear from him for months and went into a deep depression and actually had to send my little cousin to come live with us for 3 months because she couldn't function. Even after all that my aunt never tried to separate him from his son even though he abandoned them and she never turned around to disparage all men and marriage as an institution.

 

A BAD DIVORCE....not marriage, can be awful for BOTH men and women in different kinds of ways but that is largely about the people involved and not marriage itself. If you don't marry someone and still have kids with them or buy a house with them, do you suggest this will work out better somehow simply because they aren't married??? If so, explain how that works? People are free to draft up a pre-nup before they marry and there are other things to do to try to mitigate for some things should things end badly, but not marrying isn't the solution to any of these problems, it would be not having any LTR where you cohabit or reproduce, as if you're not married you still need to pay child support, custody still will be something you need to work out, if you lived together and merged assets you're still gonna need to disentangle them....so please can someone anyone explain what is the alternative to marriage since not marrying but living like you are doesn't seem to offer any more protection from these worries.

[toscaroscura]

I am currently separated from my husband.

 

He is in the house, and I have my own apartment. He can keep the house, as we purchased a home that had been in his family. It wouldn't be right of me to take it, his great great grandfather built it.

 

I don't want alimony from him. We have an amicable co-parenting relationship.

 

It's not so rare.

[CALOVELY]

 

If you don't marry someone and still have kids with them or buy a house with them, do you suggest this will work out better somehow simply because they aren't married??? If so, explain how that works? People are free to draft up a pre-nup before they marry and there are other things to do to try to mitigate for some things should things end badly, but not marrying isn't the solution to any of these problems, it would be not having any LTR where you cohabit or reproduce, as if you're not married you still need to pay child support, custody still will be something you need to work out, if you lived together and merged assets you're still gonna need to disentangle them....so please can someone anyone explain what is the alternative to marriage since not marrying but living like you are doesn't seem to offer any more protection from these worries.

 

You bring up some great points. If you have a relationship with someone that involves children or property, you are going to run in to similar problems. Being married is really not the issue. Alimony is the only thing different with marriage than in a relationship with entanglements, and that is going away in many places. For those who are worried about any fallout, the answer is not to commingle assets or have children together. Lots of people are taking that option.

[littleblackheart]

Thing is Amaysng, men know these things but they also know the risks. One of them is that divorced men die earlier than never married men.

 

Not saying you personally do, but it would be a mistake for people to think this is born from bitter and hurt men. For most I know, and from what I have read, it's born mainly from rational thought and nothing is going to change that until there is actual change. Personally I think the damage has been done and that we're going to see more and more men opt out and stay single, which is going to be very bad for society. With all they have seen and experienced in their youth, along not getting the upbringing men once did, these men cannot be told they are wrong. As I said in the other thread, even parents are now beginning to tell their sons to stay single, live for themselves and not to marry. For every action there is a reaction and this is the reaction.

 

 

Yes, all true but I don't think they reflect the majority, just a very vocal minority (as ever) - most people I know either want or have marriage(I rarely venture out of this section but I see millions of thread on this site alone about it) and most parents I know, whether single or not, want that for their children too, boys and girls - even my parents, who have seen me through the worst times in my relationship, still want that for me.

 

 

There also is a trend that sees more women wanting to remain single and have children in their own terms (you know, without a man at all) but from what I read and know, the majority of people will drop their single status at the drop of a hat for the right person.

 

 

The idea of marriage doesn't scare people, in the main - the idea of taking a leap of faith and committing to one person, for whatever reason, is the problem.

 

 

The success stories about trust and kindness and mutual respect and hope and leaving the past behind and adapting to the present and building the future are cast aside where they should be celebrated and emulated and aspired to.

 

 

It's not all lost ST, it's still there for the taking for whoever wants it - hope isn't a bad place to start

[Snaggletooth]

Yes, all true but I don't think they reflect the majority, just a very vocal minority (as ever) - most people I know either want or have marriage(I rarely venture out of this section but I see millions of thread on this site alone about it) and most parents I know, whether single or not, want that for their children too, boys and girls - even my parents, who have seen me through the worst times in my relationship, still want that for me.

 

 

There also is a trend that sees more women wanting to remain single and have children in their own terms (you know, without a man at all) but from what I read and know, the majority of people will drop their single status at the drop of a hat for the right person.

 

 

The idea of marriage doesn't scare people, in the main - the idea of taking a leap of faith and committing to one person, for whatever reason, is the problem.

 

 

The success stories about trust and kindness and mutual respect and hope and leaving the past behind and adapting to the present and building the future are cast aside where they should be celebrated and emulated and aspired to.

 

 

It's not all lost ST, it's still there for the taking for whoever wants it - hope isn't a bad place to start

 

No, all not lost but the divorce culture, breakdown of the family unit and pussification of men was always going to come at a price. As usual, it's the generations below us who are the ones who really pay the price for their parents selfishness, greed, laziness, irresponsibility. Some (not yourself) might scoff, sneer, snide, or look down the noses but many of those younger than us did not get the stability, life training and experience of those that went before them. If older generations are not setting an example or giving the youth realistic expectations and tools to become good adults, partners and parents, the institution of marriage is not going to last.

[BlueIris]

You bring up some great points. If you have a relationship with someone that involves children or property, you are going to run in to similar problems. Being married is really not the issue. Alimony is the only thing different with marriage than in a relationship with entanglements, and that is going away in many places. For those who are worried about any fallout, the answer is not to commingle assets or have children together. Lots of people are taking that option.

 

I agree. More people are creating cohabitation agreements too. I see it a lot in older couples with children from previous marriages- cohabs, trusts, powers of attorney.

 

Generally, I think that people who think marriage is the problem swallowed some Disney Kool-Aid or Fairy Tale Kool-Aid and never understood in the first place that marriage or cohabiting is and always has been a legal and financial agreement. Often, they’ve always lived in la-la land believing that relationship or the other sex is or should be all about love, passion and blissy happily ever after. There’s a strong streak of magical thinking involved, or a very emotional perspective on life.

[littleblackheart]

No, all not lost but the divorce culture, breakdown of the family unit and pussification of men was always going to come at a price. As usual, it's the generations below us who are the ones who really pay the price for their parents selfishness, greed, laziness, irresponsibility. Some (not yourself) might scoff, sneer, snide, or look down the noses but many of those younger than us did not get the stability, life training and experience of those that went before them. If older generations are not setting an example or giving the youth realistic expectations and tools to become good adults, partners and parents, the institution of marriage is not going to last.

 

I don't know, maybe you're right but to me a divorce doesn't necessarily mean the breakdown of the family unit, no more than staying married for appearances seems the ideal option, nor is envisaging a happy, healthy relationship without the marriage bond a catastrophe.

 

 

In one of your posts I think you mention something about not being bigger than the whole - that has my vote, in whatever form it happens to be. Selflessness, open-mindedness, a sense of duty, being true to your own moral code (or even having one in the first place), a sense of community, kindness and heart are what needs to bind society together. This is a much bigger task than fixing marriage as an institution, I think. I haven't figured what the answer to that is though: perhaps a life closer to nature where getting to know the people around you matter more than finding your true soul-mate by screening endless strangers behind a screen; I don't know.

 

 

I'm not sure what the pussification of men entails (nothing nice, clearly) but you know, I guess that's mostly in their own hands.

[Tayken]

no more than staying married for appearances seems the ideal option, nor is envisaging a happy, healthy relationship without the marriage bond a catastrophe.

 

Some people don't seem to think this count, as far as they are concerned, their little arrangement of arguing / yelling in front of the kids, as well as sleeping on the couch / in different rooms whilst not speaking to each other is not indicative of a bad marriage.

[Snaggletooth]

An old female friend, she used to be upbeat, positive, life and soul of the party. She married, had a kid and agreed to move across the country for her husbands work. They bought a house, moved in the last piece of furniture and he turned and said "I don't want this", got in his car and disappeared. She didn't hear a word from him for 10 years. Left in a new area, hours from anyone she knew and with a mortgage a 1 year old to deal with. For the last twenty years she has suffered severe depression. Twice she pulled out all her hair. A few times she attempted suicide. Me and my ex had to take in the kid and raise it for a couple of years while the mother was treated. She will never trust a man again. As a man, it's sometimes difficult to even be a friend to her. She can be tiring but she's more than worth it. Despite it all, she knows how to be a friend in return. Despite the depression, she raised the kid and managed to keep the house. Strong woman. She neither run or quit.

 

He, on the other hand, the man without the balls and spine to face his responsibilities, is a bright, happy, upbeat kind of person, regardless of the pain, hurt, struggles and suffering he has left behind him. Many are like that though, all that matters to them is their own happiness and they will not allow anything to hinder their pursuit of personal happiness. Despite their cheery outlook, they often have no time for others, are often only there for the good times and leave a trail of destruction behind them.

 

We're as defined by what we walk away from and turn a blind eye to, as much as what we walk towards and open our eye to.

Edited December 29, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redacted response to deleted post

[sweetjasmine]

You bring up some great points. If you have a relationship with someone that involves children or property, you are going to run in to similar problems. Being married is really not the issue. Alimony is the only thing different with marriage than in a relationship with entanglements, and that is going away in many places. For those who are worried about any fallout, the answer is not to commingle assets or have children together. Lots of people are taking that option.

 

It's not just alimony that makes the difference. Marriage usually offers MORE protection for the parties involved than just living together, especially with the concept of marital property. Bitter people always look at the "takes half of my stuff!!!!111" side of it, but division of assets between people who have been living together for a long time without marriage is even messier, even if they never combined their finances. If someone wants to screw you over, you have no recourse.

 

In my state, professional licenses acquired during marriage are considered assets. If one spouse puts the other one through medical school, then they both have a stake in that asset, and it's considered during division of assets. If a person who's not married puts their long-term partner through medical school, and that person walks out the door once they're settled into a lucrative practice, the person who made sacrifices to help the doctor get there has zero claim on anything. Which one is "omg going to steal my stuff" worse, there? Unless people are thinking they're going to be the ones to take and then run off.

[me85]

What is marriage good for? To me personally? Absolutely nothing. But I'd never interfere in anyone's marriage. I have respect for the unity of marriage but I have no desire to get married. I don't see myself as a committed partner anymore.

 

Now, I could feel differently in a year's time but not likely. Or I could meet a guy who falls in love with me and I fall in love with him and we get married and live happily ever after together, but again, not likely.

[Tayken]

Marriage usually offers MORE protection for the parties involved than just living together, especially with the concept of marital property. Bitter people always look at the "takes half of my stuff!!!!111" side of it, but division of assets between people who have been living together for a long time without marriage is even messier, even if they never combined their finances.

Ah...you mean when it comes to tax time once a year and doing a joint tax or claiming child tax credits? Yeah.....that is a real benefit I tell ya, so good I relinquished it to my ex to claim going forward even in our 50-50 situation

 

How it is in your state, is not how the law is with regards to couples and divorce everywhere. In Quebec for example, common law is not recognized regardless of how long you've lived together which means if you have a long term partner, they get nothing when the relationship breaks down.

 

What is marriage good for? To me personally? Absolutely nothing.

 

Turns out it's not just war that is good for absolutely nothing

A case involving the owner of cirque de soleil last year went all the way to the supreme court, and he won against his Brazilian gf gold digger

[salparadise]

It's not just alimony that makes the difference. Marriage usually offers MORE protection for the parties involved than just living together, especially with the concept of marital property.

 

I'm surprised that no one has discussed achieving the greater depth in a committed relationship than is possible when both are holding something back, keeping their options open with one eye on the exit.

[Snaggletooth]

I don't know, maybe you're right but to me a divorce doesn't necessarily mean the breakdown of the family unit, no more than staying married for appearances seems the ideal option, nor is envisaging a happy, healthy relationship without the marriage bond a catastrophe.

 

 

In one of your posts I think you mention something about not being bigger than the whole - that has my vote, in whatever form it happens to be. Selflessness, open-mindedness, a sense of duty, being true to your own moral code (or even having one in the first place), a sense of community, kindness and heart are what needs to bind society together. This is a much bigger task than fixing marriage as an institution, I think. I haven't figured what the answer to that is though: perhaps a life closer to nature where getting to know the people around you matter more than finding your true soul-mate by screening endless strangers behind a screen; I don't know.

 

 

I'm not sure what the pussification of men entails (nothing nice, clearly) but you know, I guess that's mostly in their own hands.

 

Nope, its in the hands of what's raising them, but I went through that in another thread.

 

If selflessness, moral duty, kindness, heart, responsibility and sense of community cannot hold together the family unit, the resulting lack of it will not hold together society, and that is becoming very plain to see.

 

 

If one was to go to Africa and watch how militias destroy families to weaken society, weaken the next generation and breed apathy and ignorance, they'd see that what we voluntarily do through free will is not that much different.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Snaggletooth

[littleblackheart]

Nope, its in the hands of what's raising them, but I went through that in another thread.

 

If selflessness, moral duty, kindness, heart, responsibility and sense of community cannot hold together the family unit, the resulting lack of it will not hold together society, and that is becoming very plain to see.

 

 

If one was to go to Africa and watch how militias destroy families to weaken society, weaken the next generation and breed apathy and ignorance, they'd see that what we voluntarily do through free will is not that much different.

 

Yes but the family unit doesn't have to be so prescribed, it's just not realistic - dreaming of days of yore doesn't really cut it, you kind of have to adapt to the society you're in.

 

 

Commitment (giving your word and keeping it) in every sense is missing, and marriage is no measure of commitment - it wasn't intended that way (a business transaction between families was its foundation, so nothing idyllic) and in many countries it's still that way - an arranged / forced marriage is, in my view anyway, not a better solution to a happy relationship without a contract and doesn't make society work better.

 

 

I've not been to Africa but although I was raised in France, my family comes from a war-torn country where the institution of marriage is still standing but nothing else is, and where people would gain from having a more relaxed view on marriage (amongst other things - I'm conscious the Internet is only anonymous to a point so it's difficult to be as open as one could).

 

 

 

 

Even if it is a noble institution and even if aspiring to it is uplifting and a beautiful challenge, I think resting the fate of society on marriage's shoulders is risky (marriage is feelings, and feelings are fickle). I don't have anything else to offer though, being a simple mind, but maybe a return to obligatory civic service would be more urgently beneficial in dealing with what you describe than an ideal resting on two people respecting a contract.

Edited December 29, 2014 by littleblackheart

[littleblackheart]

An old female friend, she used to be upbeat, positive, life and soul of the party. She married, had a kid and agreed to move across the country for her husbands work. They bought a house, moved in the last piece of furniture and he turned and said "I don't want this", got in his car and disappeared. She didn't hear a word from him for 10 years. Left in a new area, hours from anyone she knew and with a mortgage a 1 year old to deal with. For the last twenty years she has suffered severe depression. Twice she pulled out all her hair. A few times she attempted suicide. Me and my ex had to take in the kid and raise it for a couple of years while the mother was treated. She will never trust a man again. As a man, it's sometimes difficult to even be a friend to her. She can be tiring but she's more than worth it. Despite it all, she knows how to be a friend in return. Despite the depression, she raised the kid and managed to keep the house. Strong woman. She neither run or quit.

 

He, on the other hand, the man without the balls and spine to face his responsibilities, is a bright, happy, upbeat kind of person, regardless of the pain, hurt, struggles and suffering he has left behind him. Many are like that though, all that matters to them is their own happiness and they will not allow anything to hinder their pursuit of personal happiness. Despite their cheery outlook, they often have no time for others, are often only there for the good times and leave a trail of destruction behind them.

 

We're as defined by what we walk away from and turn a blind eye to, as much as what we walk towards and open our eye to.

 

 

This is what these people will be, married or not. That's the problem, not marriage.

 

 

So what broke your friend was marriage, and what built her up was true friendship, commitment, a sense of duty, open-mindedness, kindness and selflessness...

[Snaggletooth]

This is what these people will be, married or not. That's the problem, not marriage.

 

 

So what broke your friend was marriage, and what built her up was true friendship, commitment, a sense of duty, open-mindedness, kindness and selflessness...

 

No marriage didn't break her. Broken promises and broken marriage broke her, as well as hurt her kid. Despite what her friends have done, she still suffers and her kid had an unstable childhood and never had a father. A father is just as important as a mother and friends cannot truly replace the absence of one.

 

Often, in divorce, it's only one person that walks away happy. The rest are picking up shattered lives and tending oft permanent scars.

[littleblackheart]

No marriage didn't break her. Broken promises and broken marriage broke her, as well as hurt her kid. Despite what her friends have done, she still suffers and her kid had an unstable childhood and never had a father. A father is just as important as a mother and friends cannot truly replace the absence of one.

 

Often, in divorce, it's only one person that walks away happy. The rest are picking up shattered lives and tending oft permanent scars.

 

 

Yes because that's what marriage is - a promise. A lot of people aren't very good at keeping those, and building the foundation of society on something as flimsy is far too risky, IMO.

 

 

Chances are this guy would have been a ghost father whether here or not - some men have this crazy assumption that because they see their children 5 minutes a day in the family home it has any kind of influence on their children: it doesn't. These children, whether their parents are married or not, will have been raised by their mothers, or childcare. Quality time is much more precious than any contract or promise, and the lack of it is worse than not being in a stable home, whatever that means. Maybe you were blessed to have a wonderful father, and the picture you painted of your childhood was very touching but you were lucky - it simply isn't the case for everyone, even for your parents' generation.

 

 

I get what you're saying - my parents have been married 43 years, being raised in a 'stable home' had some advantages and individually, they are both great people but their kind of marriage isn't something I would aspire to; the dysfunction we had to live through broke me as a person much more than anything else, and has undoubtedly played a part in the situation I'm in today.

 

 

I don't really want to be too personal - suffice to say that permanent scars and shattered lives are something I know very well but, to say that often only one person walks away happy is not a true reflection of reality: most of the time, the 2 people carry these scars forever, in different forms (for some it's guilt, for some time has stopped, for some it's the overwhelming sense of failure, for some it's anger)- it's just that some are better than others at hiding it.

Edited December 30, 2014 by littleblackheart