I love him but I don't know what he's thinking anymore

December 11, 2014

Hi all. Thought I'd provide a mini-update for anyone who's followed this thread. Nothing major to report, but we've chatted two more times over the past week, and he's been friendly and engaged in the convo each time. So that's three times chatting over the past eight days. He even tries to keep the exchange going a little bit - replying to things that don't require a response, when he could easily have dipped out of the conversation. This is a far cry from some of his cold/short texting habits of a while back. I know he's been completely sober the past two times we were talking, too, so it's not like he was just drunk and bored or lonely. I don't know if this will ever lead anywhere, but I'm glad that we're talking and being friendly with each other. I'm actually content with going at a very slow pace on the chatting and just seeing what happens. I still have some emotions to work through, but it's getting a lot better (finally!).

itspointless, have you read He's Scared, She's Scared? http://www.amazon.com/Hes-Scared-Shes-Understanding-Relationships/dp/0440506255/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1418279467&sr=1-1&keywords=he%27s+scared+she%27s+scared

If you haven't, you should check it out. You'll most definitely recognize yourself and your ex. I've read about half of it so far, and it explains very well what happens in the mind of a commitmentphobe/avoider, as well as the confusion for those of us left wondering what the hell just happened. I'll be ordering some of these other books you guys have recommended for Christmas.

Hope everyone is doing well, just wanted to check in.

December 13, 2014

Ah yes, getting replies, eventually her answers did not make me happy. The answers were empty. Perhaps your talks with him are somewhat better, but at some point it is better to ask him where he stands. I think I always remain puzzled with how she just suppressed every feeling because of her stress. She admitted that, including that she probably had suppressed what she felt for me. I still find that hard to accept. I guess that feeling is living in my body for the long run.

No I haven’t read the book, I do have a copy on my laptop though. Perhaps I should read it as I have seen it mentioned here often. You keep reading and working, attachment styles are not easy to change, but we can try right?

Edited December 13, 2014 by Itspointless

December 13, 2014

Ah yes, getting replies, eventually her answers did not make me happy. The answers were empty. Perhaps your talks with him are somewhat better, but at some point it is better to ask him where he stands.

Our chats aren't about much (just hey, how are you, what are you doing - nothing heavy), but there has been a definite change in tone. Before, his replies were very short at times. Now, he's been keeping the convo going when it didn't really need to keep going. I'd say something that could easily be a conversation stopper, and he'd add something else. It sounds like no big deal, but to me it means that he's warming up a bit and is trying to do better (I had told him in my angry messages that his short/cold text replies bothered me). If he didn't care, and wanted little to do with me, he certainly wouldn't be making the effort.

I think I'm just gonna let it be like this for a while, just low contact, no pressure or questions. I still have some healing to do, and I still feel quite guarded. And he's been working a ton on a project out of town. So I just don't feel there's any hurry. I do worry that I'll miss the window of opportunity - like if he's warming up to me now, should I encourage it by warming up more to him, or telling him I miss him? I don't want the slight progress to dry up. But things don't feel solid enough for me to risk doing anything other than what I'm doing, so I'm just going to go with it for now and see what happens. I feel in my gut that he does still care and think about me, based on these recent convos. But I'm thinking realistically and knowing that it may lead nowhere. What do you think?

I think I always remain puzzled with how she just suppressed every feeling because of her stress. She admitted that, including what she felt for me. I still find it hard to accept that. I guess that feeling is living in my body for the long run.

I'm sorry that you're still feeling bad about it. I completely understand. Some people just get inside us and never leave. Since I'm fearful avoidant, and do have some avoidant behaviors, feel free to ask me any questions if you think I might could help you at all. I'm able to suppress feelings at times. And thinking back, I think I'm only able to do that during situations where I've felt I had the upper hand. Like even with this guy, who I'm obviously crazy about... when I called things off that first time, I was suppressing what I felt as I was doing it. He was trying to talk to me, so I felt I had the upper hand; I had no fear of loss in the moment, and was therefore able to suppress what I was feeling. Not sure if that makes any sense. I just shut it all off and felt very cold towards him, and had myself convinced that this was a good thing. I wasn't doing it on purpose, but I actually recognized pretty quickly that I was doing it, and I didn't like that I was. And then the second it became apparent that I was actually going to lose him (by his call, not mine - very important distinction there), all the feelings came rushing back. It was all just a moment in time, and pretty different from your situation, but maybe it'll give you a little bit of insight and help you understand how it happens. I've actually suppressed feelings with other guys in the past, as well, to an even greater extent... if you'd like me to describe any of those situations, just let me know. I believe that understand something aids in healing.

No I haven’t read the book, I do have a copy on my laptop though. Perhaps I should read it as I have seen it mentioned here often. You keep reading and working, attachment styles are not easy to change, but we can try right?

Yes, we can certainly try, lol. I feel like there are certain things that trigger withdrawal in each individual, and if we could learn what those triggers are, we could just attempt to avoid them. I know with myself, there are definite, specific triggers. If someone didn't push those buttons in me, I wouldn't do what I do (angrily saying it's over and trying to cut them out of my life, etc). The problem lies in being vulnerable enough to let someone know what one needs. I would probably never offer that information straight up, but if ASKED what I needed, I would definitely try to communicate about it (probably with great relief at being given the opportunity to open up). I wonder if that would work on others - asking them what they need/want in order to feel safe and happy.

You should read the book some time, even if you just skim it. I only read the first half because it was tedious trying to read it on my phone. I need to get a hard copy and finish it.

December 14, 2014

Our chats aren't about much […] I'd say something that could easily be a conversation stopper, and he'd add something else. It sounds like no big deal, but to me it means that he's warming up a bit and is trying to do better (I had told him in my angry messages that his short/cold text replies bothered me). If he didn't care, and wanted little to do with me, he certainly wouldn't be making the effort. […I do worry that I'll miss the window of opportunity - like if he's warming up to me now, should I encourage it by warming up more to him, or telling him I miss him?[…] I'm thinking realistically and knowing that it may lead nowhere. What do you think?

That is problem of being anxious I guess, you quickly blame yourself. If I remember right he knows that you miss him. With talking to him he knows that you are interested. The hard part is that he probably isn’t a safe investment. It is hard when your heart thinks otherwise …

I'm sorry that you're still feeling bad about it. I completely understand. Some people just get inside us and never leave

The things that have happened with her have touched earlier events of my life, also some things my mind has protected me from for half my life. An important example is my mother dying when I was a teenager. I have a good memory when it comes to situations and what people say, so I always find it really hard to forget. Seeing my mother suffer intense pain for many years and seeing her break many times has taught me a lot about feeling powerless. The pain and emptiness was always there, but I had trouble touching the emotions. In my twenties I have had periods where I felt really empty and very depressed. With a previous ex those particular emotions were also touched (she had some mental problems), but not like last year. I never expected that someone would push me away because of illness. I wanted to be there for her, her decision hit me like a brick wall. The floods to those old emotions have been opened a bit again. I am already feeling so much better, but I need to continue working on myself as it is a chance to really make progress.

Since I'm fearful avoidant, and do have some avoidant behaviors, feel free to ask me any questions if you think I might could help you at all.

You know the talking with you in this thread already has been very therapeutic for me. I also find it really interesting to read how you experience and process, it is something I also generally am very interested in with people as people and behavior generally interest me a lot. What you write does make a lot of sense to me. My ex sometimes must have felt the same, you know she has tried to explain it to me once when I visited her a weekend. She already was stressed then. I never have blamed her for taking refuge, but it is the finality that I find hard to accept. I never felt in my life as with her and I know that was mutual. Reading what you write definitely gives it more body, thank you!!

Yes, we can certainly try, lol. I feel like there are certain things that trigger withdrawal in each individual, and if we could learn what those triggers are, we could just attempt to avoid them. I know with myself, there are definite, specific triggers. If someone didn't push those buttons in me, I wouldn't do what I do (angrily saying it's over and trying to cut them out of my life, etc). The problem lies in being vulnerable enough to let someone know what one needs. I would probably never offer that information straight up, but if ASKED what I needed, I would definitely try to communicate about it (probably with great relief at being given the opportunity to open up). I wonder if that would work on others - asking them what they need/want in order to feel safe and happy.

You should read the book some time, even if you just skim it. I only read the first half because it was tedious trying to read it on my phone. I need to get a hard copy and finish it.

Thank you I will! I know it worked for my ex. We met due to people we both know. After that we talked a while online before we had the chance to meet again. I guess it gave her the chance to open up a bit. I know that she was really surprised with that (that actually surprised me). But as I have understood with dismissive-avoidance – as described in the first link I posted in this thread - when the relation starts to feel real, the proverbial **** hits the fan. I actually thought for a while that we were really good at communicating. at a certain moment it made me feel safer as I ever had experienced. I wish I had known more about attachment styles, back then I thought the field only was concernt with the development of children.

With you possibly the same things applies, I don’t know? I mean perhaps the distance here makes it easy for you to open up to me and other people here? I hope you are able to talk this with people you know or a therapist (when you have the money). If you are able to share like this and become used to that than I think you really can change to a more secure pattern. Anyway you are invited to talk to me when you want, or sent a message when with the two months mark you are able to.

December 14, 2014

Have you read the book Why Men Love Bitches? Pick up a copy and give it a read. It's not really about how to get a man. It's about how to treat yourself with respect while dating a man, so that you will only attract men who are willing to treat you with respect.

For whatever reason this guy doesn't want a relationship with you. He likes to keep it casual and see you at his own convenience. That's fine if you want the same thing but you don't. You want more than what he's willing to give you.

Move on and date someone else. Keep seeing this guy if you want, but don't try to make him the only one. Accept things for how they are. If it is meant to be, then it will happen. Let things take their natural course.

December 16, 2014

Hi AlwaysPuzzled, I wanted to say that the examples you granted me really moved me this weekend. I really grateful for these insights as they help me. Sometimes there are little moments where things fall into place, your paragraph was one of them. I have to admit that reacting like you describe is very alien to me, but I understand it. I wondered, do you recognize when feeling tired or stressed that you become grumpy and want to be alone, definitely not someone caring about you or talking about how you feel? Not that I always want to talk, lol, no, I would become annoyed myself. But turning completely inward or to silence, no that's not me.

December 20, 2014

Hi AlwaysPuzzled, I wanted to say that the examples you granted me really moved me this weekend. I really grateful for these insights as they help me. Sometimes there are little moments where things fall into place, your paragraph was one of them. I have to admit that reacting like you describe is very alien to me, but I understand it. I wondered, do you recognize when feeling tired or stressed that you become grumpy and want to be alone, definitely not someone caring about you or talking about how you feel? Not that I always want to talk, lol, no, I would become annoyed myself. But turning completely inward or to silence, no that's not me.

Hi! I really must apologize for taking so long to get back to you. My reason for absence is ironically just as you described above. Sometimes I get so much on my mind that I find it hard to do anything BUT keep to myself and just think, think, think. I've been in one of those moods for the past week or so, all because of *him*. Nothing ever came of our little text exchanges. I'm still really upset over all of this. I've still been doing tons of reading, and I guess I'm a classic Love Addict, on top of everything else. I just can't get this guy off my mind, and still hope for something with him in the near or far future. I'm currently trying to decide whether to text hello or not, as I know he'll be home for the holidays. He's been working out of town and living in a hotel all this time, so he hasn't been near enough to even think about seeing if he wanted to get together and hang out - until now. But stubbornness and fear of rejection are holding me back from reaching out. The more I read about avoidants, the more it fits him to a tee... and I have this thought in my head that if we could just try again, with my newfound understanding of him, maybe it could turn into something. I'm sure it's just wishful thinking, but the thought is always there.

I'm really glad that the things I've said have given you some insight and understanding! It makes me feel good that you said that, and I thank you. I would definitely like to pm with you when I am able - I didn't know there was a 2-month membership limit that had to be passed, so thanks for letting me know about that as well.

SO, now to your question: "I wondered, do you recognize when feeling tired or stressed that you become grumpy and want to be alone, definitely not someone caring about you or talking about how you feel? Not that I always want to talk, lol, no, I would become annoyed myself. But turning completely inward or to silence, no that's not me."

The answer is a big huge YES. You describe it perfectly. I most definitely do turn inward to a large degree. I've always been very introverted; was your ex?? As I said, I've been in one of these moods for the past week or so (well, for the past several months really! but it comes and goes a bit). When I have something on my mind, I just don't want to interact much with people, because I find it to be a distraction to my thoughts as well as more energy than I am willing or able to expend. Right now it's because of this guy, but it could be anything - anything that has me worried or stressed out. During these times, I close myself off and hardly talk to anyone. It makes me feel really guilty, actually, so I always try to tell people, "hey, I'm going through something right now and just kind of need to be by myself. It's not you, it's nothing personal, I'm sorry!" I try to give people a head's up, and I find that most people completely understand and are willing to just leave me be without taking it personally.

I do get REALLY grumpy during these times if people want more out of me than I want to give. As I've said, I live with my parents, and I get grumpy with them quite often. When they need help with computer issues, or have questions about something, or want to tell me about something, it's all I can do to switch my mind off long enough to listen and engage, and then it's right back to mental solitude as soon as I'm able. I get slightly snappy, and sometimes feel guilty and have to apologize and explain the reasoning. I know it sounds kind of bitchy and horrible, but I don't mean it to be. I just can't deal with anything outside of my own thoughts sometimes. If you google introverts, there's a lot of good info out there. I don't think people really understand it unless they are one - but to us, it's normal. If your ex was very introverted, I can definitely see her wanting to keep to herself about her illness. I've never had an illness, so I can't relate to that extent, but I have definitely had bouts of hypochondria where all I do is worry worry worry about something. I imagine it would be the same thing if I actually had an illness; me being who I am, I'm sure I would hold it all in and keep to myself.

I do find that during these moods, as much as I want to keep to myself and try to process things and figure things out on my own, once I open up and talk to someone about it I feel A LOT better (at least momentarily). For example, I'll be keeping to myself, upset about this guy, and my mom is wanting to talk about this or that and I just want to be alone. If I finally open up and talk about my thoughts with her, I'm better able to engage with her about other things once I've gotten it all out... as long as she is supportive and not critical. It helps to talk about things. If I feel I have to talk too much about things other than my worry/issue/whatever, it's just too much, and I will avoid the person.

Maybe, too (trying to put myself in your ex's shoes for a moment)... if I were worried/stressed about something, and someone was asking me how I felt... I think if I felt like they were dependent upon my opening up to them... like if they NEEDED me to open up to them in order for themself to feel better... I might be put off by that. Let's say I am her, and you are you. If I was in a mood where I needed to be by myself, and you were trying to get me to talk about it, and I sensed that you *needed* that connection in order to feel okay, I might feel a tad bit resentful and tend to push you away. I would feel that you needed more than I am able to give you. It could very well be that you are simply being caring and trying to be there for me, but if I sense an underlying emotional agenda on your part (whether it's really there, or I'm just perceiving it to be there), I'm going to push you away. Does that make sense?? This would not AT ALL be anything you're doing *wrong*, it's just me and my issues. The pressure to make you feel okay would cause me to shut you out, because I would resent the pressure. And that's soooo unfair and unfortunate!!! But it's how I am, and possibly how your ex is. I could be off base, since I don't know her, but I'm trying to think how she might have been feeling just based on what you've told me. And then I would feel very guilty for shutting you out, which is yet more pressure, which leads to a bit of misplaced resentment, which gives me more ammunition to further push you out so as not to have to deal with the guilt.

I tend to overexplain things, but I hope this helps!! I apologize again for taking days to respond (see, here I am feeling guilty, because I know it's not cool to make someone wait -- but I've truly just been stuck in my own thoughts, and wanted to wait until I could open up and fully engage in the conversation.) I hope that you can relate to some of this in terms of what your ex may have been feeling, and that the understanding helps you to further heal. I know it doesn't make the loss any less painful, but like I've said before, I really really feel like understanding something is sometimes crucial - it helps in healing, as well as preparing us for our next relationships. I'll be around if you want to talk some more

December 20, 2014

Have you read the book Why Men Love Bitches? Pick up a copy and give it a read. It's not really about how to get a man. It's about how to treat yourself with respect while dating a man, so that you will only attract men who are willing to treat you with respect.

For whatever reason this guy doesn't want a relationship with you. He likes to keep it casual and see you at his own convenience. That's fine if you want the same thing but you don't. You want more than what he's willing to give you.

Move on and date someone else. Keep seeing this guy if you want, but don't try to make him the only one. Accept things for how they are. If it is meant to be, then it will happen. Let things take their natural course.

Thanks for your input!! I actually ordered Why Men Love Bitches, and look forward to reading it. I wish I had read it earlier, but now is better than never right? I've heard really good things about it and know it'll be helpful.

I wish I could maybe date someone else, but I don't think I can right now. I'm very one-person focused, and I just don't see anyone else living up to this guy at all. I'm afraid it would make me yearn for him even more, because I would compare. I'm on a free dating site, and not a single other person has caught my eye.

Maybe these words of yours is what I need to hang onto, and eventually let everything else go: "If it is meant to be, then it will happen. Let things take their natural course." I sooooo wish I had had that mindset with him in the first place! I honestly believe that things could be very different right now if I had.

December 21, 2014

WELL, after writing my post earlier, and after stubbornly holding out for 10 days of No Contact, and after feeling like I just wasn't going to hear from him again.... he texted me tonight! Just out of the blue like last time. Such a small thing, but it does make me happy that he was thinking of me (he wouldn't have texted if he wasn't). I do feel like he has this stubborn refusal to text first, but when I hold out, he does. Might take him a week and a half, but he does. Feels sooo much better than me texting him first.

Anyways, I'm glad that after all the crap we've both done to each other (and we've done equal shares of crap, which despite what a lot of people may think, I do believe stems from fear and insecurity and push/pull behavior on both our parts), we can still forgive and chat and be totally friendly. I don't know that I've ever been able to do this with any past exes/love interests. With all of them, when we talked again, it was months (sometimes a year or more) later. So this feels GOOD. Just can't get too carried away with false hopes

December 21, 2014

Hi! I really must apologize for taking so long to get back to you.

I'm really glad that the things I've said have given you some insight and understanding! It makes me feel good that you said that, and I thank you.

Well you don’t have to actually Time does not matter. I am grateful with your answers, they help me a lot. It gives more body to things I have read and to what I have seen. You help me dash my hope, the only thing I can do and I think I am slowly getting there.

I find love-addiction a confusing concept as I have the feeling it is loosely based on attachment theory. Think, think, think, think, think, I am familiar with that. It does teach me a lot though.

he texted me tonight! […] it does make me happy that he was thinking of me (he wouldn't have texted if he wasn't) […] Feels sooo much better than me texting him first. […] So this feels GOOD. Just can't get too carried away with false hopes

It does feel good right? But only for such a small amount of time, as we are allowed to walk that small space they allow us. If you are like me - well you are different and unique but we share some traits – you feel good because of your hope.

and I have this thought in my head that if we could just try again, with my newfound understanding of him, maybe it could turn into something.

You have to read this, it is a paradox.

The best way to think about that scenario is that you shouldn't try to change someone- especially if they're aware of their detachment. First, that's manipulative. Second, wherever their detachment stems from is a place you can't go- you can't repair that from a relationship position. More than likely actions by you to repair them are ultimately self fufilling i.e. you care for them and want them to care the same way BUT there's this barrier your actions can't remove. That need is your own attachment trigger- not theirs. So while you can possibly look at someone and hope they can have whatever feelings someday- to force that is trying to meet your own needs.

I've always been very introverted; was your ex??

As I remember her, I thought she was but I am not sure anymore as the concept of introversion is more complicated than I was aware of. To complicate the story I am introverted myself. On top of this, I also exhibit avoidant tendencies myself, but those tendencies with me always have been wilful and not primary reactions. I think that is a very important differentiation here. I think it might be interesting for you to do this personality test: Personality test based on C. Jung and I. Briggs Myers type theory (This test is not regarded as very scientific anymore, but I find it very insightful). If you are wondering the outcome I had with that test is infj. Introverted there means mainly where we put our attention and where we get our energy from.

It is interesting what you write as I recognize some things from being introverted, some things of being in the anxious quadrant, while other things are more alien to me like what you write about closing yourself of. I personally need my distance to gain energy, but I also really need a few quality moments with people when I feel low or stressed otherwise I feel like exploding.

It makes me feel really guilty, actually, so I always try to tell people, "hey, I'm going through something right now and just kind of need to be by myself. It's not you, it's nothing personal, I'm sorry!" I try to give people a head's up, and I find that most people completely understand and are willing to just leave me be without taking it personally.

She told me things close to this. This is why I have the feeling that it ultimately was me who broke it. I know it is the wrong kind of thinking and I am coming to a point I perhaps can accept that. There have been numerous moments I thought I had, but it is a slow process.

I do get REALLY grumpy during these times if people want more out of me than I want to give. As I've said, I live with my parents, and I get grumpy with them quite often. When they need help with computer issues, or have questions about something, or want to tell me about something, it's all I can do to switch my mind off long enough to listen and engage, and then it's right back to mental solitude as soon as I'm able. I get slightly snappy, and sometimes feel guilty and have to apologize and explain the reasoning. I know it sounds kind of bitchy and horrible, but I don't mean it to be. I just can't deal with anything outside of my own thoughts sometimes.

In my twenties I had to stay with my father for a long time due to finances. I could have written this myself, lol. But the last sentence, perhaps that is where we differ. I always try to make time when I am asked. I used to do this until I had the feeling that my head exploded. I am better with my boundaries these days. But still there is always a part within myself that when asked tries to force myself as I am afraid people will be disappointed in me. So I am guessing the matter is even more complicated than I presented to you this far.

I've never had an illness, so I can't relate to that extent, but I have definitely had bouts of hypochondria where all I do is worry worry worry about something. I imagine it would be the same thing if I actually had an illness; me being who I am, I'm sure I would hold it all in and keep to myself.

I am not hypochondriac myself at all even having witnessed my mother suffer for years. At first I was understanding as many ill people do this in some degree. I also thought of wounded animals who turn inward and find a solitary place to take care of themselves and heal. She indeed worried a lot, and did not want me to see her vulnerable: that last inside was in a line of communication I found months afterwards. She actually first had kept it to herself, it was a massive shock to me. She also asked me for time as she felt not ready to tell me what was going on (I remembered I few things she had told me before). I gave that to her while she was away to family for a few weeks. (I never pressured her consciously to do anything). Afterwards she was very surprised to hear that I had been very worried in that time. I never told her that I could walk up to walls in that period, it reminded me of old demons.

Maybe, too (trying to put myself in your ex's shoes for a moment)... if I were worried/stressed about something, and someone was asking me how I felt... I think if I felt like they were dependent upon my opening up to them... like if they NEEDED me to open up to them in order for themself to feel better... I might be put off by that. Let's say I am her, and you are you. If I was in a mood where I needed to be by myself, and you were trying to get me to talk about it, and I sensed that you *needed* that connection in order to feel okay, I might feel a tad bit resentful and tend to push you away. I would feel that you needed more than I am able to give you. It could very well be that you are simply being caring and trying to be there for me, but if I sense an underlying emotional agenda on your part (whether it's really there, or I'm just perceiving it to be there), I'm going to push you away. Does that make sense?? This would not AT ALL be anything you're doing *wrong*, it's just me and my issues. The pressure to make you feel okay would cause me to shut you out, because I would resent the pressure. And that's soooo unfair and unfortunate!!! But it's how I am, and possibly how your ex is. I could be off base, since I don't know her, but I'm trying to think how she might have been feeling just based on what you've told me. And then I would feel very guilty for shutting you out, which is yet more pressure, which leads to a bit of misplaced resentment, which gives me more ammunition to further push you out so as not to have to deal with the guilt.

It does makes sense. What you write here connects many dots. She repeatedly told me that she couldn’t offer me anything. That confused me as I thought your presence is enough, you do not have to offer me anything. I made a mistake there and you confirmed it to me with your perfect description.

I tend to overexplain things, but I hope this helps!! I apologize again for taking days to respond (see, here I am feeling guilty, because I know it's not cool to make someone wait -- but I've truly just been stuck in my own thoughts, and wanted to wait until I could open up and fully engage in the conversation.) I hope that you can relate to some of this in terms of what your ex may have been feeling, and that the understanding helps you to further heal. I know it doesn't make the loss any less painful, but like I've said before, I really really feel like understanding something is sometimes crucial - it helps in healing, as well as preparing us for our next relationships. I'll be around if you want to talk some more

I am very grateful for your time and energy, it helps me a lot! Thank you for this gift

Edited December 21, 2014 by Itspointless

December 21, 2014

Well you don’t have to actually Time does not matter. I am grateful with your answers, they help me a lot.

I am very grateful for your time and energy, it helps me a lot! Thank you for this gift

You're very welcome. I really like talking to you And I thank you, as well, for coming here and offering your insight and chatting back and forth with me about all this. I find it very helpful as well!

It gives more body to things I have read and to what I have seen. You help me dash my hope, the only thing I can do and I think I am slowly getting there.

I find it interesting that throughout this discussion, and from learning about avoidants, your hopes are dashed while mine are renewed. I'm not sure why that is. I guess you're looking at things more realistically/logically, and I have the typical female response of thinking someone can be "fixed" or "saved" (to put it simply).

It does feel good right? But only for such a small amount of time, as we are allowed to walk that small space they allow us. If you are like me - well you are different and unique but we share some traits – you feel good because of your hope.

Yes, hope does feel good. It feels sooooo much better than despair. There's a quote I've always liked from the surprisingly good Lifetime movie "The Capture of the Green River Killer." The narrator, a victim who is talking from beyond the grave throughout the movie, says: "So, you have to believe, even if you're mistaken, even if there truly is no one who gives a damn about you, 'cause what's the point in thinking that? To be right? Why not believe in Santa, even if it's a lie? If it makes you happy, who's it gonna hurt? So what if you look like an idiot. You got to hope. Even if hope is a lie." As long as one's hope is not purely delusional, and as long as it's not hurting anyone, perhaps it's not such a bad thing after all.

I find love-addiction a confusing concept as I have the feeling it is loosely based on attachment theory.

Yes, I think it is. For myself, I can best describe it as going through painful withdrawals when a relationship ends. I would bet that most love addicts are either anxious-preoccupieds or fearful-avoidants. Alanis Morissette is a self-proclaimed love addict (or she used to be; she's now happily married). Love/infatuation is like a drug to me - the highs are sooo high, the fixes feel almost necessary for survival at times, and the withdrawals are something awful.

You have to read this, it is a paradox.

The best way to think about that scenario is that you shouldn't try to change someone- especially if they're aware of their detachment. First, that's manipulative. Second, wherever their detachment stems from is a place you can't go- you can't repair that from a relationship position. More than likely actions by you to repair them are ultimately self fufilling i.e. you care for them and want them to care the same way BUT there's this barrier your actions can't remove. That need is your own attachment trigger- not theirs. So while you can possibly look at someone and hope they can have whatever feelings someday- to force that is trying to meet your own needs.

So true, thank you! This makes total sense, and I have to agree, though I'm tempted to debate it a tiny bit. I think love for all of us is ultimately self-serving, or else we wouldn't go after it. And I think that to seek a better understanding of someone, and to try to figure out a better way to relate to them because we care, isn't manipulative in the "bad" sense of the word. But yes, overall, I do agree with the quote, and I wouldn't want to actually change who he is - just find a better way to communicate and relate. I'm going to take a screenshot of this quote for future reminders, and maybe one day I can really accept it without debating it.

I also exhibit avoidant tendencies myself, but those tendencies with me always have been wilful and not primary reactions. I think that is a very important differentiation here.

I think I get what you're saying here. You use avoidant behaviors on purpose when you know you should detach from something that is bad/unhealthy/hurtful for you... is this what you mean?

As I remember her, I thought she was but I am not sure anymore as the concept of introversion is more complicated than I was aware of. To complicate the story I am introverted myself. I think it might be interesting for you to do this personality test: Personality test based on C. Jung and I. Briggs Myers type theory (This test is not regarded as very scientific anymore, but I find it very insightful). If you are wondering the outcome I had with that test is infj. Introverted there means mainly where we put our attention and where we get our energy from.

Yep! It's all about where we gain our energy. Introverts can only handle so much outside stimulation (in the form of socializing) before they must retreat and recharge for a bit, whereas extroverts are energized by being around others. Thanks for the link, I'll take the test today and report back my results - mine will probably be very similar, if not the same, as yours. There are a couple of introvert facebook pages that I follow, and they're always talking about infj's. There's a really popular book out there about introverts called Quiet by Susan Cain, if you're interested in further reading. I have a copy but haven't read it yet (story of my life - too many books, too little time!).

I personally need my distance to gain energy, but I also really need a few quality moments with people when I feel low or stressed otherwise I feel like exploding.

Same here! I think it's human nature to need to connect with others, introvert or not. Sometimes I don't recognize that I need a connection, and after I get it, I feel instantly better. Holding it all inside, all the time, is not healthy. There has to be a balance, which is hard to find at times.

***I'm going to post this part, and then write the rest in a separate post. My laptop keeps wanting to restart and I'm afraid I'll lose what I've already written. More to come in just a few...***

December 21, 2014

She told me things close to this. This is why I have the feeling that it ultimately was me who broke it. I know it is the wrong kind of thinking and I am coming to a point I perhaps can accept that. There have been numerous moments I thought I had, but it is a slow process.

Nooo, you didn't break it. It's really a lot to ask of someone to say "Hey, please still care and be there for me later, but leave me alone for now until I'm ready to let you back in." I think it can be fine for friendships in which you're not overly attached or dependent on each other, those in which you can drift apart and have your own lives and come back together and pick up where you left off. But in love relationships, it's really not fair or practical to expect this kind of understanding from someone. I'm sure she realized that it wasn't fair to you, and yet she just couldn't help it. It also depends on time frame - it's maybe okay to need someone to leave you alone for a day or two, but when it stretches into weeks or months then it becomes unfair to expect the other person to be okay with it. I think the solution is communication and compromise, and an understanding of each other's needs during these times. Instead of pushing you away entirely, she could have made the effort to check in/chat/connect a couple times a week for short periods of time, or communicate via email if that's more comfortable than talking out loud about it, etc - these are just examples of compromises that could be made, so that the needs of both are somewhat met. I could handle *some* if I knew I wouldn't be expected to give *all*. And you could probably handle a willing offering of *some* much better than a begrudging *some* or *nothing at all*. You didn't break it - please don't allow yourself to think that you did.

In my twenties I had to stay with my father for a long time due to finances. I could have written this myself, lol. But the last sentence, perhaps that is where we differ. I always try to make time when I am asked. I used to do this until I had the feeling that my head exploded. I am better with my boundaries these days. But still there is always a part within myself that when asked tries to force myself as I am afraid people will be disappointed in me. So I am guessing the matter is even more complicated than I presented to you this far.

You're a giver!! And perhaps a bit of a people-pleaser, based on your sentence about being afraid people will be disappointed in you. You should feel good about yourself that you're there for other people, but do always take care of yourself first. If you push yourself by giving too much, you'll eventually become stressed and then depleted (as I'm sure you've realized, since you say you've now become better with boundaries). I'm much more selfish - not because I don't care, but because I can't handle being relied upon for support - I don't feel I can follow through without getting way too stressed out.

She indeed worried a lot, and did not want me to see her vulnerable: that last inside was in a line of communication I found months afterwards. She actually first had kept it to herself, it was a massive shock to me. She also asked me for time as she felt not ready to tell me what was going on.

I completely get her on the vulnerable thing. Completely. To me, illness=vulnerability, and sometimes you just don't want to show that to people. It feels uncomfortable. I've always thought to myself that if I were ever in the hospital for any reason, I wouldn't want hardly anyone coming to see me, laying there in a gown in the bed. Waaay too vulnerable and somehow embarrassing/humiliating. I'm sure it also takes a lot of time to process an illness within your own mind, before being able to open up to someone else about.

I gave that to her while she was away to family for a few weeks. (I never pressured her consciously to do anything). Afterwards she was very surprised to hear that I had been very worried in that time. I never told her that I could walk up to walls in that period, it reminded me of old demons.

Honestly, it sounds like you handled everything just perfectly. It wasn't you - it was her, not being able to let someone in during that time in her life. You would have been the perfect mate for her, I believe; she just didn't feel comfortable in receiving it. Also, didn't you say you were long-distance? It's harder to keep a connection going without regular face-to-face. Who knows, if you'd been able to be around her more physically, things could have been different as well (if she had allowed you to be around her in that way, which she very well may not have). The demise of your relationship seems a victim of circumstance and timing to a large degree.

It does makes sense. What you write here connects many dots. She repeatedly told me that she couldn’t offer me anything. That confused me as I thought your presence is enough, you do not have to offer me anything. I made a mistake there and you confirmed it to me with your perfect description.

You didn't make a mistake! In hindsight, you can look back and analyze and and discover things you might could have done differently, but there was no way for you to know at the time. For what it's worth, I really truly feel you did nothing wrong. It was all her and her issues. If you had the understanding of her then that you now have, you *may* have been able to do things a little differently - that's how I feel about my own situation. But we didn't know.

I think this is good, though, figuring out what we might could have done differently. I know that most people here probably disagree with all this overthinking and analysis, but think about it... we usually tend to get into the same types of relationships with the same types of people, over and over, until we heal certain parts of ourselves that need healing. Also, second chances with people DO happen. So whether we get into another similar relationship in the future, or we magically get a second chance with these people that we care so deeply for, we now know how to better handle ourselves with them (and hopefully the outcome will therefore be a more positive one... or at the very least, we will be less hurt at the end).

December 23, 2014

Hi AlwaysPuzzled, I wanted to answer your posts but haven't had time for it yet. Perhaps I will tomorrow, otherwise it will be not sooner than Saturday or Sunday. I have the feeling that your posts in combination with the time are finally pushing me to acceptance of the situation and its finality. It doesn't make me celebrate it though

December 23, 2014

Hi AlwaysPuzzled, I wanted to answer your posts but haven't had time for it yet. Perhaps I will tomorrow, otherwise it will be not sooner than Saturday or Sunday. I have the feeling that your posts in combination with the time are finally pushing me to acceptance of the situation and its finality. It doesn't make me celebrate it though

Hi Itspointless, thanks for checking in Take your time in responding - no hurry! I know that things get really busy around the holidays, and I'll be busy too for a bit.

I'm puzzled (ha) by how my posts make you less hopeful rather than more hopeful. Of course if that's what you need to heal, then that's a good thing right? But I was thinking that through understanding her better, you might could one day reach her. That's how I feel about my guy. If I knew better what he needs and wants (and since he's SUCH a poor communicator, he gives me little to go on) I could better relate to him, even as a friend. At this point, I would really like to be his friend. I think it's a positive sign that he's texted me - if he were done and had no feelings, he wouldn't risk reaching out knowing that drama might ensue. And he's not getting anything out of it - no booty calls (he's not the type for that anyways), no ego boost (we just chat, and I remain entirely neutral). I'm still trying to figure out what to do, and what it means. I'm currently just doing nothing and letting things happen on their own time.

But back to your ex - I do wonder if you guys could have a second chance if you knew the "right" way to reach her, and I'm here to help if you ever want to give it a shot. You know her better than I do, though, and if you feel that moving on is what is best for you, I get and respect that.

If we don't talk again in the next day or two, I hope you have a very Merry Christmas!!! Also, please don't feel pressured to reply to my every sentence; I get carried away and write way too much! So no hurry, and no pressure

December 23, 2014

I'm puzzled (ha) by how my posts make you less hopeful rather than more hopeful. Of course if that's what you need to heal, then that's a good thing right? [...] If we don't talk again in the next day or two, I hope you have a very Merry Christmas!!! Also, please don't feel pressured to reply to my every sentence; I get carried away and write way too much! So no hurry, and no pressure

Your question deserves an elaborate answer, as I think the answer to this question has more sides to it. It already had me thinking last week. Sometimes I guess when we really care about someone we have to let them go. Perhaps someday I can talk with her without any hopes or distracting feelings, but now I really can't.

You have great days too!

December 23, 2014

Your question deserves an elaborate answer, as I think the answer to this question has more sides to it. It already had me thinking last week. Sometimes I guess when we really care about someone we have to let them go. Perhaps someday I can talk with her without any hopes or distracting feelings, but now I really can't.

You have great days too!

Completely understood. I'm still trying to figure out the best course myself (which only boils down to whether to initiate texting with him or wait and let him do it all). You're right, if you love a butterfly....

December 28, 2014

Hi AlwaysPuzzled, I have sent you a message.

I love your saying: 'if you love a butterfly....'

December 29, 2014

Hi AlwaysPuzzled, I have sent you a message.

I love your saying: 'if you love a butterfly....'

Hi -- yay, can now private message!! It might be later today or tomorrow before I read and reply, as I want to have a good chunk of time to devote to it. For now, I just got on to provide a quick update....

But I look forward to PM'ing with you, and look forward to reading your message asap

December 29, 2014

Hi all. I think it's important to provide these little updates for other readers who are going through something similar. I know that I always want to know what ends up happening when I read other people's threads.

Soo, quick recap: like I said before, he initiated texting for the first time in a long time a few weeks ago. I initiated the next two times. He was friendly and engaged in the convos. Then ten days passed, and I just wasn't going to text first again. I had about given up, and then he texted (this was one week ago). I initiated one more time a few days later.

Yesterday was my birthday, and he left me a fb wall post. And then a few hours later, he texted me and asked if I wanted to get together. So we did! This was his first day off in the past two months other than xmas (he's been working out of town on a project with a deadline - construction work), and he spent it with ME on my birthday. He was as sweet as he always is, and we had a great time. It felt sooo good to see him. We were together from yesterday late afternoon til this morning when he had to go back to work. He had no agenda - he wasn't lonely, he wasn't drunk when he asked to get together, it wasn't a booty call, his parents weren't out of town. I know this doesn't solve the dilemma of commitment (more about that in a minute), but it DOES solve the mystery over whether or not he cares about me. It wasn't just members here who insisted that he didn't; I have a friend or two who don't know him personally either, and they also insisted that he didn't care. And I have to say that it's just not true. "He's just not that into you" isn't the answer for everything.

I'm really going to do my best to continue working on myself, and try to chill the f*ck out with all the anxiety over him (and relationships in general from here on out). My anxiety/fears make me sabotage things. I get myself in trouble when I need *what are we* kind of answers, and I go about asking in a way that would make anyone put up resistance. I've really learned a lot from all this about what NOT to do, and I'm now going to put it into practice. The only person I can change is myself, and I best quit being my own worst enemy!!! With him, I'm going to keep taking it very slowly and just allow things to unfold naturally, whatever may happen. Just gotta keep the anxiety in check! It won't always be easy, but at least this way there is at least a chance. If at any time I become unhappy or need answers about something, I will certainly handle it differently.

I'm feeling very happy and relaxed about this

December 30, 2014

Edit -- I'm not going to be snarky because it's not a nice thing to do. But I will say that nothing you've posted since 99% of folks gave up on this thread changes my perception of this guy and your situation -- at all. I think it's rather sad, especially this most recent update. But whatever makes you happy, I suppose.

Happy birthday, sincerely!

Edited December 30, 2014 by snowflakes88

December 30, 2014

Happy birthday, sincerely!

Ah yes, happy birthday!

December 31, 2014

Edit -- I'm not going to be snarky because it's not a nice thing to do. But I will say that nothing you've posted since 99% of folks gave up on this thread changes my perception of this guy and your situation -- at all. I think it's rather sad, especially this most recent update. But whatever makes you happy, I suppose.

Happy birthday, sincerely!

Luckily I didn't read your post before you edited it, as this one was snarky and condescending enough. I'll keep my own snarkiness to a minimum and just say that I'm abandoning this thread as well. I came here for support, and instead have gotten mostly criticism and negativity. It's made me feel worse, not better. There is nothing "sad" about my update. I didn't say everything that happened bc I didn't want it to be torn apart. I will keep it to myself. Just thought it would provide some other reader some day with a little bit of hope. I'm done here.

Itspointless, I'll PM you soon, not upset with you at all.

December 31, 2014

Question OP - what if he doesn't contact you in 10 days again? What if it's 15?

What would have to happen for you to believe that this man doesn't want a relationship with you (besides him saying to you directly "I will never want a relationship with you)?

I'm guessing you're too afraid to answer that question.

December 31, 2014

He is interested in you when he has nothing else to do---we established that ten thousand pages ago. I would be incredibly insulted if a man only spoke to me and saw me when it was convenient for him. Here you are bragging about being casual entertainment for someone who won't even date you. I'm really sorry you don't believe you deserve better than to be an occasional plaything.

"He hung out with me and he wasn't even drunk!" That might be the saddest thing I've seen on this site.

December 31, 2014

We were together from yesterday late afternoon til this morning when he had to go back to work.

it wasn't a booty call,

What can I say? He is obviously besotted...

We await developments.

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