TIME CRITCAL: Meeting wife for first time tommorow, need guidance!

[Young_gun82]

Sounds to me like you are listening to what everyone else thinks or wants you to do, and are not paying attention to what YOU want to do.

 

Well, what I want to do hasn't worked. Communication with her is very challenging when she's this upset & I'm walking on eggshells to the 10th degree.

 

My natural reaction of what "I want to do" is my first one... plead/cry/beg/promise change, which I trust many of you would strongly disagree against doing.

[Downtown]

Downtown - Thank you for your diagnosis (literal & symbolic) of my wife & our situation.

YoungGun, I'm glad you found the information helpful. Keep in mind, however, that none of us on this forum can "diagnose" your W. What we are doing, instead, is simply pointing you to information about BPD warning signs so you can decide -- for yourself -- whether you've been seeing strong BPD red flags over the past 15 years. Indeed, you likely know more about your W's behaviors over that period than any other person on the planet. Moreover, there is nothing subtle or nuanced about behavioral traits such as strong verbal abuse, physical abuse, and inability to trust.

 

She has had a rough childhood (father died when she was 4, mother & step father were terrible terrible parents).

Most abused children grow up without developing BPD. The abuse or abandonment, however, greatly raises the risk for developing this disorder. Many studies have shown that. A 2008 American study, for example, found that 70% of the BPDers reported they had been abused or abandoned in childhood.

 

BPD is believed to be caused by a combination of genetics (which sets up a predisposition to BPD) and childhood trauma. Significantly, the trauma is believed to occur before the age of five, with the result that the child's emotional development is frozen at the level of a 3 or 4 year old. This means the child never had the opportunity to integrate the good and bad aspects of her own personality. It also means that she is stuck having to rely -- for a lifetime -- on the primitive ego defenses that are available to very young children. These include projection, black-white thinking, magical thinking, temper tantrums, and denial.

 

The area that I would like to tackle, is the behavior you mention about the fear of abandonment.... she's not fearful at all for being "abandoned".... So how do you explain this?

Because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they flip back and forth between experiencing the abandonment fear and the engulfment fear. As I said earlier, those two fears are on opposite ends of the same spectrum so the BPDer usually is triggered by only one fear or the other at a time. This means that, while a BPDer is feeling engulfed and is pushing you away, she typically is not in touch with her abandonment fear. This, then, is why it is common for BPDers to walk out on their partners numerous times before eventually ending the relationship.

 

One reason they walk out or push you way -- as I noted earlier -- is the engulfment, i.e., a feeling of being suffocated or of losing one's identity in the partner's strong personality. Another reason they walk out is that the abandonment fear grows so strong that the BPDers will preemptively abandon you to stop the pain -- and to prevent herself from going through the much more painful experience of being abandoned by you.

 

The irony, then, is that the people most afraid of abandonment often will abandon their own partners by creating fights -- over nothing at all -- to push them away. This is one reason that, although BPDers usually hate to be alone by themselves, they eventually push away all of their friends who drew close to them. The result is that a BPDer usually has no long-term, close friends unless they live a long distance away.

 

Moreover, as the years go by, a BPDer typically becomes increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. At the same time, she will become increasingly resentful of her husband's inability to make her happy (an impossible task). On top of that, the H usually will start developing stronger personal boundaries to protect himself from the abuse as the years go by. This erection of stronger boundaries will scare the devil out of the BPDer spouse because she will interpret it as a sure sign that he is intending to abandon her or (what amounts to the same thing) cheat on her.

 

These growing fears and resentments are the reason that, when a BPDer is married to a caregiver like you and me, she usually will walk out permanently after about 15 years. Indeed, my BPDer exW did exactly that -- she abandoned me just 3 months short of 15 years. By "abandoned me" I mean she had me thrown into jail and then obtain a R/O barring me from returning to my own home until the divorce was finalized 18 months later.

 

Hence, if your W has a strong abandonment fear, it would be evident in a repeated cycle of push-you-away (due to a triggering of engulfment fear) and pull-you-back (due to the abandonment fear). The abandonment fear also would be evident in an irrational jealousy where she misperceives your interest in other women to be a sure sign you're going to leave her. Importantly, if you really are correct about her NOT having a strong abandonment fear, she CANNOT be exhibiting a strong pattern of BPD traits. I've never heard of a BPDer who doesn't have a strong abandonment fear.

 

The engulfment does resonate with me. I literally can't get close to her or touch her. She'll get very very upset. She explains that she's disgusted with me, apparently or that she's near me, so i have to sit across at a distance.

Perhaps that is a good example. Perhaps not. The engulfment fear generally is seen when the BPDer becomes angry and starts a fight -- out of thin air -- immediately after a very intimate evening spent together or in the middle of a great vacation. BPDers, then, tend to start the very WORST fights immediately after (or during) the very BEST of times.

 

The reason for this is that, although BPDers crave intimacy just like everyone else, they have such fragile egos that they cannot tolerate intimacy for very long. They soon start feeling like your strong personality is dominating them -- like they are losing themselves in you -- and like they are being controlled by you. To protect the BPDer's fragile ego from that painful feeling, her subconscious will project the bad feelings and thoughts onto YOU. And, because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she will consciously be convinced those feelings and thoughts are originating from you.

 

She therefore will start a fight to push you away and, at a conscious level, she will try to rationalize your imagined offense as best she can. After all, she is convinced the intense feeling MUST be true. The result is that BPDers usually truly believe the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths. And, a week later when she is claiming the exact opposite, she will firmly believe that allegation too.

 

She thinks I'm going to screw her since I have a finance background.

YoungGun, if you decide that your W has been exhibiting many strong BPD traits over the past ten years or so, you should know that the divorce likely will get very nasty very quickly. One reason is that BPDers are unstable and therefore may radically change their position every few weeks.

 

Another reason is that BPDers generally lack the ability to trust themselves and thus are unable to trust their spouses for an extended period. This means that, if your W is a BPDer, she never would have been able to trust you even if you had not kept a journal about your teenage adventures online. Hence, if you decide that you are seeing most BPD warning signs, I would recommend you read the book, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

 

She saw a therapist last week & realized that she's always irritable, angry, ONLY AT ME

The vast majority of BPDers -- even those having full-blown BPD -- are "high functioning." This means they generally interact well with business associates, casual friends, and complete strangers. NONE of those people pose a threat to the BPDer's fear of abandonment because there is no close relationship to be abandoned. Likewise, none of them pose a threat to a BPDer's fear of engulfment because there is no intimacy to cause the feeling of being suffocated and controlled. This is why BPDers often excel in many demanding professions such as nursing, teaching, law enforcement, and even in psychology. This also is why it is common for a HF BPDer to treat strangers with courtesy and compassion all day long -- and then go home at night to abuse the very person who loves her. Hence, if your W really is a BPDer, this could explain why she's has been directing her anger only at you over the past decade.

 

I read all the links you provided me on BPDers & agree with many of the traits, they stuck out clearly. Based on the symptoms, she's exhibiting many of them. There are a few that I would say she would not fall into the category & I'll explain a little later.

It would be very helpful to know which traits do NOT apply. I say this because those traits are not all equal in importance. Some of them, such as the abandonment fear discussed above, are essential for the behavioral pattern to be called BPD.

[GirlStillStrong]

Downtown - Thank you for your diagnosis (literal & symbolic) of my wife & our situation. I read all the links you provided me on BPDers & agree with many of the traits, they stuck out clearly. Based on the symptoms, she's exhibiting many of them. There are a few that I would say she would not fall into the category & I'll explain a little later.

 

The area that I would like to tackle, is the behavior you mention about the fear of abandonment. To me, she clearly is dead set on divorcing & did not show she had any doubt in doing so. Her intent is there, the planning is there (based on the business card for apartment I saw) she just hasn't committed to an apartment yet for timing & logistical issues I guess. That being said, she's not fearful at all for being "abandoned". She's eager to start her new life. I simply don't see her scared of being abandoned. If she was, then that would present my opportunity to reconcile. So how do you explain this? I'm interested on your take. Perhaps this trait doesn't apply to her.

 

The engulfment does resonate with me. I literally can't get close to her or touch her. She'll get very very upset. She explains that she's disgusted with me, apparently or that she's near me, so i have to sit across at a distance. But isn't that somewhat normal when someone is mad at you?

 

Yes that's normal. But don't you see you are kowtowing to and/or babying her? The girl is throwing a temper tantrum and you are paying attention to it. When a person is done, they walk away and that's it. This girl just wants to keep being angry. You are not letting her own her anger and keep making yourself her punching bag. If you want her to want to make it work, trying to talk to her is NOT going to help you, it will only hurt you. Go about your business of living your life to the fullest. Go see the damn counselor and get a grip. As long as yoi try to negotiate with her you will be irritating her. She wanted to be by herself? Leave her alone. Let her do her thing while you do your thing.

 

No one is trying to diagnose anyone. The info is being provided to help you understand what seems like irrationality. But the point about abandonment is dumping somebody DOES address the fear of abandonment because if SHE abandons YOU, she can then not be abandoned.

[GirlStillStrong]

Well, what I want to do hasn't worked. Communication with her is very challenging when she's this upset & I'm walking on eggshells to the 10th degree.

 

My natural reaction of what "I want to do" is my first one... plead/cry/beg/promise change, which I trust many of you would strongly disagree against doing.

 

OK, "plead beg cry promise and change" are not WANTS. They are reactions. You are REACTING to someone's irrational behavior and are therefore turning into a mess. You have got to start inhibiting that response so you can get a grip. You really should go to Al-Anon. This will help you learn how to deal with what is going on.

 

Stop walking on eggshells and go play basketball, go out with the guys, live YOUR life. Do ANYTHING but sit there.

[Young_gun82]

=Most abused children grow up without developing BPD. The abuse or abandonment, however, greatly raises the risk for developing this disorder. Many studies have shown that. A 2008 American study, for example, found that 70% of the BPDers reported they had been abused or abandoned in childhood.

 

Interesting statistics. In the context of my wife's childhood, she was emotionally abandoned by her mother and subsequently, step father. She has two younger half sisters, which, she was always responsible to care for after school since the age of 9 & never really had a chance to socialize after school, as she was parenting her mother's kids as a child herself. She resents her mom for this then & now, as the high expectations they put on her were not vastly disproportionate to those of put her younger siblings as they grew up. They received everything, she did not. She was on an island by herself within the family.

 

 

This, then, is why it is common for BPDers to walk out on their partners numerous times before eventually ending the relationship.

 

She would "end" us all the time. But afterwards, I would feel guilty as she would call me later saying something to the effect of, "if you really loved me/cared for me, you'd do this...or drive back here NOW (at the time I lived 1.5hr away). I found myself constantly driving there in the middle of the night sometimes just to comfort her.

 

is one reason that, although BPDers usually hate to be alone by themselves, they eventually push away all of their friends who drew close to them. The result is that a BPDer usually has no long-term, close friends

 

In our younger years, since she was in fact along when she moved to the desolate city w/ no friends who lived there (I was all she had), she was obsessed with checking in with me while I was in college, & to the extent I had plans that did not include her, she would be angry which lead to arguments which led to breakups/etc. As we grew older into marriage, she somewhat stopped this trait. Even now, she's planning to move in with a friend, so would you say this is an evaporating trait?

 

Moreover, as the years go by, a BPDer typically becomes increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. At the same time, she will become increasingly resentful of her husband's inability to make her happy (an impossible task). On top of that, the H usually will start developing stronger personal boundaries to protect himself from the abuse as the years go by. This erection of stronger boundaries will scare the devil out of the BPDer spouse because she will interpret it as a sure sign that he is intending to abandon her or (what amounts to the same thing) cheat on her.

 

Wow - This really hit me. It describes a part of our situation so perfectly. The only boundary I "created" recently, was when she was physically slapping me. I would go into a rage & shout at her to NEVER hit me. She was upset & said that physically harming me was the only way that I could have someone an equal measure to her emotional pain she was experiencing, yet I lacked. Subsequently, during our last few extremely intense fighting, she resulted in hitting herself as she said it would help take some of the emotional pain away. I was cold & not remorseful during these moments & am regretful, ashamed I didn't show her any empathy. I've been desensitized for so long.

 

These growing fears and resentments are the reason that, when a BPDer is married to a caregiver like you and me, she usually will walk out permanently after about 15 years.

 

Remarkable that you point out 15 years, we are at 14.5 yrs

 

the BPDer becomes angry and starts a fight -- out of thin air -- immediately after a very intimate evening spent together or in the middle of a great vacation. BPDers, then, tend to start the very WORST fights immediately after (or during) the very BEST of times.

 

In our last vacation in Rome, she was upset & irritable that I couldn't find someone in that moment to take a picture of us in front of the Collosiem. I was angered right back at her for causing another outburst & this turned into a horrible moment. She was crying so long & I was standing in front of thousands of people trying to repair everything...it took almost 1 hour to settle down, but damage was done.

[Young_gun82]

Yes that's normal. But don't you see you are kowtowing to and/or babying her? The girl is throwing a temper tantrum and you are paying attention to it. When a person is done, they walk away and that's it. This girl just wants to keep being angry. You are not letting her own her anger and keep making yourself her punching bag. If you want her to want to make it work, trying to talk to her is NOT going to help you, it will only hurt you. Go about your business of living your life to the fullest. Go see the damn counselor and get a grip. As long as yoi try to negotiate with her you will be irritating her. She wanted to be by herself? Leave her alone. Let her do her thing while you do your thing.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. I will try to get a life. As I'm here, I realized she has too. In fact, after she got dolled up yesterday (I know this is wrong & you've expressed againist this behavior) but I had to know what she was doing. I went into her computer history & found to my absolute surprise she's interested in someone and they've been texting each other apparently. I'm not sure if its a coworker or not. I also believe nothing is physical, she's probably waiting for me to get the papers done so she can officially date this guy. Ironically, her & her friend also made a match.com profile (but its empty at the moment).

 

She left last night to go out, I assumed with her friends, but she returned at 4:30am in the morning... shes NEVER done that before unless it was with me. In fact, we've never come home that late since we were maybe in Vegas once upon a time ago in our early 20's. I can't imagine there's anything to do that late. So my mind is spinning & I'm questioning if she's actually seeing someone. She DOES have good morals, & has been faithful to me throughout the lifetime of this relationship, so I do have doubt. But I guess anything can change.

[GirlStillStrong]

Well, there is no way to know the truth if she doesn't tell it or you don't somehow find it. I understand snooping and I'm sorry what you found out hurts but the truth will set you free. While you have been taking the blame and letting this bitch beat up on you and slap you, and BLAME you for the abuse she is doling out, she is ****ing around on you and you are believing her lies. I know you have this desire to "save" your marriage like it was an endangered species or something but fact of the matter is, you married a nasty, crazy, disgusting person and I hope you come to realize it soon. And stop feeling sorry for her and her childhood. It is NOT your responsibility to cure her mental disorders or help her cope with life, that's HER job. And her childhood? That was then, this is now, and it sounds like she needs to grow the hell up.

 

I'm afraid you've been a doormat and continue to want her to walk all over you and wipe her filthy feet on you. Not only that, you're her punching bag. When a person shows you who they are, believe them. You seriously need to get angry and stop taking **** off her.

Edited November 16, 2014 by GirlStillStrong
typo

[Young_gun82]

Ok, so I'm going to drop another bombshell...this is ironic.

 

But after searching her history on the computer, finding things like "divorce proceedings, her new man interest, etc." I found she was researching all these websites about Borderline Personality Disorder... Narcissistic Personality Disorder! Just as I have been doing since yesterday on her!

 

She suggested recently that I need to work on my internal issues, so I guess this is what she's inferring.

 

That said, yesterday when I was reading Downtown's BPD list of traits, I was mentally checkmarking which I felt my wife fell into, which was a good amount. At moments I was wondering if I fell into these categories. As such, I took a quiz for the disorder out of curiosity, and scored on the low end of the point total, saying that it's a possibility.

 

I am, however, taking a honest look at myself...self reflection. Basically, I've known & have known, that as she fights about things out of thin air, I've been equally as upset at her for doing so & "fighting back". So I'm not innocent. I get angry that she gets angry. I demonstrate frustration & irritability when she starts yelling at me & getting upset on these little things. I've lashed out at my family in the past. So does that mean I'm a BPDer myself? Honestly. I'm trying to figure that out. is there a possibility that means both of us are?

 

As far as fear of abandonment, I don't believe had those issues at all...only up until now where I fear my wife leaving me. Downtown indicates in his previous post that this is a critical trait that all BPD have. So I'm curious whether that I would be check marked under this trait too.

 

The other bombshell, I realized, shamefully & regretfully, is that I was reading on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I never heard of it, but I believe I am suffering from it. I didn't take the quiz, but I dont think I have to. I grew up very poor with my family & at the same time, we lived in the richest counties in America. So I had always something to prove that I was equal to those of my wealthy peers, they were obsessed with success & money, in away I think that shaped my thinking & my career is now in investments. In my field, our colleagues measure each other's success by our financial successs. Frequently, people compare their Benz to the new Porshe that the guy across the hall got. So my upbringing & surrounding was conducive to my views. My wife hates that about me. So in a sense, I do take blame for these poor qualities.

 

Have any of you watched the movie, "the Six Sense?" I feel like I'm in that movie. Where the detective is searching for these ghosts the whole movie & in the end, he finds that he is a ghost himself.

 

Am I a ghost?

[Young_gun82]

Well, there is no way to know the truth if she doesn't tell it or you don't somehow find it. I understand snooping and I'm sorry what you found out hurts but the truth will set you free. While you have been taking the blame and letting this bitch beat up on you and slap you, and BLAME you for the abuse she is doling out, she is ****ing around on you and you are believing her lies. I know you have this desire to "save" your marriage like it was an endangered species or something but fact of the matter is, you married a nasty, crazy, disgusting person and I hope you come to realize it soon. And stop feeling sorry for her and her childhood. It is NOT your responsibility to cure her mental disorders or help her cope with life, that's HER job. And her childhood? That was then, this is now, and it sounds like she needs to grow the hell up.

 

I'm afraid you've been a doormat and continue to want her to walk all over you and wipe her filthy feet on you. Not only that, you're her punching bag. When a person shows you who they are, believe them. You seriously need to get angry and stop taking **** off her.

 

I know I sound like an abused spouse. But after doing self reflecting as I indicated in my previous post, she claims I'm abusive at her. She has constantly told me, "Everytime I'm angry, doesn't mean you need to be angry! That's why we fight! Just shut the **** up! You don't need to say anything"!

 

When we've tried to work things out in the past, I've told her that I would work on this or I would work on that. At times, i would tell her, "you know...this has been going on for a long time. You've always been angry at me. I want to change & help, but if you're always angry at me...it's challenging. Is there any way you might want to consider re-evaluating how you talk to me?" She responds, "I don't ever have to change myself. What you did to me (online cheating) means that I can say or do whatever I want. If you want to be with me, you're going to have to deal with it. I don't need to improve myself, what you're asking is selfish. If you don't want to deal with this & you think it's not fair, LEAVE!"

[Downtown]

She was researching all these websites about Borderline Personality Disorder... Narcissistic Personality Disorder! ...She suggested recently that I need to work on my internal issues, so I guess this is what she's inferring.

YoungGun, BPD is said to be "ego-syntonic," which means it nearly always is invisible to the person having the disorder because it is such a normal way that person has been thinking since early childhood. Moreover, because a BPDer is filled with self loathing and shame, the LAST thing she wants to find is one more thing to hate about herself. The result is that -- although BPDers have a vague awareness something is wrong inside -- it is rare for a BPDer to be sufficiently self aware to see she is suffering from this disorder.

 

Due to the self loathing, a BPDer's subconscious protects her from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting her painful thoughts and feelings onto her partner (or whomever happens to be in the room). This means that, if you tell a BPDer you suspect she has that disorder, she almost certainly will project it right back onto you. And, because that projection occurs entirely in her subconscious, she will believe -- at a conscious level -- that YOU are the BPDer. This is one of the reasons therapists generally are LOATH to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder.

 

I took a quiz for the disorder out of curiosity, and scored on the low end of the point total, saying that it's a possibility.

BPD traits are important to have at low levels because they help us survive. They only become a problem when they are so strong and persistent that they prevent us from managing our emotions, with the result that we are often flooded by very intense feelings. This is a "problem" because, whenever human beings experience intense feelings, their judgment goes out the window.

 

This occurs because intense feelings distort our perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Of course, by the time you were in high school, you already knew this about yourself. This is why you tried to hard to keep your mouth shut every time you got very angry -- and why you tried very hard to avoid buying the engagement ring until the infatuation had time to fade.

 

I demonstrate frustration & irritability when she starts yelling at me & getting upset on these little things. I've lashed out at my family in the past. So does that mean I'm a BPDer myself?

No, it simply means that -- like every other person on the planet -- you occasionally exhibit all of the BPD traits. Indeed, when you were a young child, you behaved like a BPDer 24/7. And you likely started behaving like a BPDer again during your early teens when trying to find an identity and to deal with raging hormones all at the same time. Further, you almost certainly will get bad flareups of your BPD traits occasionally throughout your lifetime whenever you are under enormous stress or experience a strong hormone change.

 

Hence, if your W really is a BPDer, her dysfunctional behavior differs from yours only by degree. That is, her BPD traits would be more intense and occur more frequently. Moreover, because a BPDer's emotional development is frozen at the level of a four year old, your W would be exhibiting such strong traits every few weeks throughout life. Unlike your traits, hers would persist over the years and would not just flare up temporarily.

 

This implies that we all are somewhere on the BPD spectrum. For us "healthy" adults, our position on that spectrum will change occasionally but, for the most part, we will stay on the lower end of the spectrum (except for our childhood and early teens). In contrast, BPDers will generally remain on the upper end of it. A BPDer's traits will disappear entirely -- typically for 4 to 6 months -- only during the infatuation period, because the infatuation convinces her that you pose no threat and, in this way, it holds the two fears at bay. Those fears return, of course, when the infatuation evaporates.

 

When she was physically slapping me. I would go into a rage & shout at her to NEVER hit me

This process of starting to behave like your abuser is called "picking up fleas." It is impossible to live with an abusive partner for a decade and not start exhibiting some of the bad behavior yourself. If she has strong BPD traits, the environment you were in was extremely confusing and disorienting due to the gaslighting she employed in an effort to control you.

 

Honestly. I'm trying to figure that out. is there a possibility that means both of us are?

Well, anything is possible, YoungGun. That is extremely unlikely, however. For one thing, it is rare for a BPDer to exhibit the level of self awareness you show in your many comments. For another, it is extremely unlikely that two BPDers would remain in a close relationship with each other for 14.5 years.

 

Because BPDers are unstable and don't know who they are, they seek out a partner who is stable and has a strong personality. They need that stable partner to give them a sense of identity and to help center and ground their own personalities. When two BPDers are dating, there is nobody in the room to provide them with a self identity. Hence, if you two were both BPDers, your relationship almost certainly would have broken up permanently almost as quickly as it formed.

 

The other bombshell, I realized, shamefully & regretfully, is that I was reading on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I never heard of it, but I believe I am suffering from it.

Again, as with the BPD traits, you definitely will exhibit NPD traits to some degree. We all do. They are essential for survival, especially during childhood. Yet, if you were on the upper end of the NPD spectrum, you would be incapable of loving anyone. Moreover, you likely also would be incapable of doing all this soul searching because, as a full-blown narcissist, you would be convinced you are nearly perfect. In contrast, you are a man who has been beating up on himself throughout this whole thread. This is why Girl has repeatedly urged you to stop doing that.

 

I had always something to prove that I was equal to those of my wealthy peers, they were obsessed with success & money, in away I think that shaped my thinking & my career is now in investments.

Like me, you suffered from low self-esteem and -- instead of robbing banks -- chose to over-compensate for your deficiencies by being competitive and focusing hard on developing a career. Arguably, your choice may reflect a questionable value system but it does NOT constitute NPD. And, besides, the path you chose was far better than robbing banks.

 

I feel like I'm in that movie. Am I a ghost?

Yes, you are a "ghost." Indeed, we all are. All ten personality disorders (PDs) are spectrum disorders. A disorder like BPD, for example, is not something -- like chickenpox -- that you "have" or "don't have." Rather, it is something we all have to some degree. This reality is not apparent in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5) because anyone falling short of satisfying 100% of the diagnostic criteria is said to "not have the disorder." This is as silly as categorizing everyone above 6'5" as "tall" and everyone below that height as "short."

 

Of course, psychologists have been well aware of this silliness since the PD categories were adopted in 1980. They nonetheless adopted this absurd binary approach to diagnosing PDs largely because the courts (who don't like to institutional people) and the insurance companies (who don't like to pay for treatment) insisted on a diagnostic bright line that would be set very high. Moreover, the psychologists feared that a graduated approach to diagnosis (e.g., low, normal, moderate, strong, severe) might produce inconsistent results all over the country.

 

Hence, the binary ("yes" or "no") approach the APA adopted has been an embarrassment to the psychiatric community for nearly 35 years -- a problem they are in the process of correcting. The graduated approach almost made it into the new manual released last year (i.e., DSM-5) but, at the last minute, the APA membership decided to delay its introduction until more research has been done.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Downtown

[GirlStillStrong]

If you were a narcissist, you wouldn't care how she felt. Ever. You also probably would not be desperately trying to save your marriage. And you wouldn't be on a web site searching for help on how to win her back.

[Chi townD]

She just left right now & is all dressed out to go somewhere tonight with her friends. I wonder if this was an initial plan or as a consequence to me being here (I saw constant text from her friends asking if she was ok.) This really really hurts. She's so beautiful, really. I know there will be so many men interested in her wherever she goes.

 

What have I done...

 

 

 

Dude, you need to look at this as a different angle. She is frickin bat sh*t crazy. Do you know why she's mad that you're there? Because you are cramping her style. Here's the deal, there's another guy in the picture. She is blaming you for EVERYTHING! She is re-writing the marital history and using an online emotional affair when you were 19 y/o when you were only dating. Not engaged, not even married; to justify her behavior toward you.

 

 

She needs to demonize you so she doesn't feel guilt about what SHE'S doing! She's probably telling herself, "I wouldn't be with this guy if he wasn't cheating on me! What's good for the goose and he cheated first!" Plus, she was looking online for her "new man interest". Dude, there's someone else in the picture. That's why she didn't want you back in the house. She can't text freely without you possibly finding out, she can't walk around the house talking openly on the phone with this guy with you around the house and she can't invite him over with you in the house. So, she has to go out and meet him! I speculate she's going to be out of the house A LOT in the coming weeks.

 

 

Why do you think that she wants the divorce as quickly as she does? As soon as you sign those papers, she's going to openly date this guy. You're legally separated. Though you're not divorced, so I don't think she understands the concept that you're only separated and she's still married, therefore, it would still be adultery on her part. Why do you think that she wants you divorced and gone without a fight? Because she's probably in her own affair fog. And she's demonized you to her friends. She has them believing that you are an abusive monster. Therefore, if she is seeing someone else, they are accepting of that relationship because they believe that she deserves happiness.

 

 

Something about this situation isn't sitting right with me. I think you need to look into this a little more. Put a keylogger on the computer. See if you can access her email or facebook. I don't think you're getting the truth here.

[Young_gun82]

YoungGun, BPD is said to be "ego-syntonic," which means it nearly always is invisible to the person having the disorder because it is such a normal way that person has been thinking since early childhood. Moreover, because a BPDer is filled with self loathing and shame, the LAST thing she wants to find is one more thing to hate about herself. The result is that -- although BPDers have a vague awareness something is wrong inside -- it is rare for a BPDer to be sufficiently self aware to see she is suffering from this disorder.

 

Due to the self loathing, a BPDer's subconscious protects her from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting her painful thoughts and feelings onto her partner (or whomever happens to be in the room). This means that, if you tell a BPDer you suspect she has that disorder, she almost certainly will project it right back onto you. And, because that projection occurs entirely in her subconscious, she will believe -- at a conscious level -- that YOU are the BPDer. This is one of the reasons therapists generally are LOATH to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder.

 

BPD traits are important to have at low levels because they help us survive. They only become a problem when they are so strong and persistent that they prevent us from managing our emotions, with the result that we are often flooded by very intense feelings. This is a "problem" because, whenever human beings experience intense feelings, their judgment goes out the window.

 

This occurs because intense feelings distort our perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Of course, by the time you were in high school, you already knew this about yourself. This is why you tried to hard to keep your mouth shut every time you got very angry -- and why you tried very hard to avoid buying the engagement ring until the infatuation had time to fade.

 

No, it simply means that -- like every other person on the planet -- you occasionally exhibit all of the BPD traits. Indeed, when you were a young child, you behaved like a BPDer 24/7. And you likely started behaving like a BPDer again during your early teens when trying to find an identity and to deal with raging hormones all at the same time. Further, you almost certainly will get bad flareups of your BPD traits occasionally throughout your lifetime whenever you are under enormous stress or experience a strong hormone change.

 

Hence, if your W really is a BPDer, her dysfunctional behavior differs from yours only by degree. That is, her BPD traits would be more intense and occur more frequently. Moreover, because a BPDer's emotional development is frozen at the level of a four year old, your W would be exhibiting such strong traits every few weeks throughout life. Unlike your traits, hers would persist over the years and would not just flare up temporarily.

 

This implies that we all are somewhere on the BPD spectrum. For us "healthy" adults, our position on that spectrum will change occasionally but, for the most part, we will stay on the lower end of the spectrum (except for our childhood and early teens). In contrast, BPDers will generally remain on the upper end of it. A BPDer's traits will disappear entirely -- typically for 4 to 6 months -- only during the infatuation period, because the infatuation convinces her that you pose no threat and, in this way, it holds the two fears at bay. Those fears return, of course, when the infatuation evaporates.

 

This process of starting to behave like your abuser is called "picking up fleas." It is impossible to live with an abusive partner for a decade and not start exhibiting some of the bad behavior yourself. If she has strong BPD traits, the environment you were in was extremely confusing and disorienting due to the gaslighting she employed in an effort to control you.

 

Well, anything is possible, YoungGun. That is extremely unlikely, however. For one thing, it is rare for a BPDer to exhibit the level of self awareness you show in your many comments. For another, it is extremely unlikely that two BPDers would remain in a close relationship with each other for 14.5 years.

 

Because BPDers are unstable and don't know who they are, they seek out a partner who is stable and has a strong personality. They need that stable partner to give them a sense of identity and to help center and ground their own personalities. When two BPDers are dating, there is nobody in the room to provide them with a self identity. Hence, if you two were both BPDers, your relationship almost certainly would have broken up permanently almost as quickly as it formed.

 

Again, as with the BPD traits, you definitely will exhibit NPD traits to some degree. We all do. They are essential for survival, especially during childhood. Yet, if you were on the upper end of the NPD spectrum, you would be incapable of loving anyone. Moreover, you likely also would be incapable of doing all this soul searching because, as a full-blown narcissist, you would be convinced you are nearly perfect. In contrast, you are a man who has been beating up on himself throughout this whole thread. This is why Girl has repeatedly urged you to stop doing that.

 

Like me, you suffered from low self-esteem and -- instead of robbing banks -- chose to over-compensate for your deficiencies by being competitive and focusing hard on developing a career. Arguably, your choice may reflect a questionable value system but it does NOT constitute NPD. And, besides, the path you chose was far better than robbing banks.

 

Yes, you are a "ghost." Indeed, we all are. All ten personality disorders (PDs) are spectrum disorders. A disorder like BPD, for example, is not something -- like chickenpox -- that you "have" or "don't have." Rather, it is something we all have to some degree. This reality is not apparent in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5) because anyone falling short of satisfying 100% of the diagnostic criteria is said to "not have the disorder." This is as silly as categorizing everyone above 6'5" as "tall" and everyone below that height as "short."

 

Of course, psychologists have been well aware of this silliness since the PD categories were adopted in 1980. They nonetheless adopted this absurd binary approach to diagnosing PDs largely because the courts (who don't like to institutional people) and the insurance companies (who don't like to pay for treatment) insisted on a diagnostic bright line that would be set very high. Moreover, the psychologists feared that a graduated approach to diagnosis (e.g., low, normal, moderate, strong, severe) might produce inconsistent results all over the country.

 

Hence, the binary ("yes" or "no") approach the APA adopted has been an embarrassment to the psychiatric community for nearly 35 years -- a problem they are in the process of correcting. The graduated approach almost made it into the new manual released last year (i.e., DSM-5) but, at the last minute, the APA membership decided to delay its introduction until more research has been done.

 

Downtown - Thank you so much for extending your time for thorough analysis of my situation. It was been enlightening, educational, and makes it a little easier for me in a difficult time where I find myself very confused as it relates to the cycle of behavior of a probable BPD wife. I have a few questions regarding some of the content you provided, however, there's a pressing new issue I'm dealing with that somehow is in line w/ Chitown's last post...pls refer there for that issue should you be able to offer any insight...I'll try to post soon.

 

Thanks again...

[Young_gun82]

She needs to demonize you so she doesn't feel guilt about what SHE'S doing! She's probably telling herself, "I wouldn't be with this guy if he wasn't cheating on me! What's good for the goose and he cheated first!" Plus, she was looking online for her "new man interest". Dude, there's someone else in the picture. That's why she didn't want you back in the house. She can't text freely without you possibly finding out, she can't walk around the house talking openly on the phone with this guy with you around the house and she can't invite him over with you in the house. So, she has to go out and meet him! I speculate she's going to be out of the house A LOT in the coming weeks.

 

 

Why do you think that she wants the divorce as quickly as she does? As soon as you sign those papers, she's going to openly date this guy. You're legally separated. Though you're not divorced, so I don't think she understands the concept that you're only separated and she's still married, therefore, it would still be adultery on her part. Why do you think that she wants you divorced and gone without a fight? Because she's probably in her own affair fog. And she's demonized you to her friends. She has them believing that you are an abusive monster. Therefore, if she is seeing someone else, they are accepting of that relationship because they believe that she deserves happiness.

 

 

Something about this situation isn't sitting right with me. I think you need to look into this a little more. Put a keylogger on the computer. See if you can access her email or facebook. I don't think you're getting the truth here.

 

Chi town - I read your post a few hours ago & was unable to comment given I'm not in the most conducive living situation. But I will tell you, initially, I didn't want to believe what you were writing...at all. But EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERY presumption you had, is true.

 

So here's the UPDATE:

 

As you've recommended Chi town, just for my own sanity, I went on a crusade to find the truth (and yes, it's snooping, but ironically, I'm in this mess b/c she initiated it by going through my things to look for my journal).

 

When I went on her computer yesterday (the first time ever with this intent) I found her Facebook account where she was messaging a friend saying, "the guy text me constantly & for 2 days, all the sudden I hear nothing! I'm confused, he's sending mixed signals...I do like him. I'm sad b/c he hasn't said anything..."

 

After reading this, I immediately knew that what's going on will be answered through the txt messages on her phone. Problem is, she has it on her all the time & we're not talking. So I had to wait until she went to bed & I grabbed it.

 

Once I got a hold of the damn thing, I wish I could say that my heart was broken again when I found what was there, but I didn't. I don't know how I feel, very confused & my mind is spinning. I have NO ONE to talk to about this & I very much appreciate everyone's contribution on this thread as this is somewhat therapeutic & helps me map out my next steps.

 

So here it goes, she has an endless thread of messages with this guy & her friends talking about this guy. THE DAY I left to my parents house at her insistence, she txt her co-worker (the guy) that she wanted someone to talk to. I have no evidence or reason to believe she was going to initiate anything with him before we separated, but somehow during the WHOLE time I was at my parents house (posting on this thread, googling how to save my marriage, hiring a marriage coach) she was going out with this guy a few times a week...(eating, shopping, movies, etc.) I can't believe it. There's no evidence she's had any physical relationship yet, it's more in the infant stages where they just go out to talk, have drinks. blah blah blah & she's emotionally gravitating to him as she sounds exactly like a teenage school girl when texting to her friends about him. From the txts I've read, she's had multiple occasions where she'd be with him somewhere until 12am one night...2am another night. Last Saturday as I slept on the couch, she came home at 4:30am and I confirmed she was with him (but another text indicates her other friend was with the at 1:30am). Today, she dresses up so pretty to go out in at 12 in the afternoon (she never does that). And I find out she txt him to go out.

 

Her friends say, "he's a gentlemen. He's not going to do anything right now b/c he knows your still married. And remember, you are married! Don't do anything with him yet until you get that sorted out!" She always responds giggly & also menacing when they ask about me... saying she didn't care when I cried as she told me that she wants a divorce.

 

So Chi town - You're totally right about how she was mad that I came home b/c I just messed up her game for the weekend. She probably wants the freedom to walk around the house & leave her phone unattended. The guy picked her up at my ****ing house! Worse part, I know this guy. And the way she talks about him sometimes, I flatly said, "I think he likes you! Stay away from him" She'd bring him up now and then, but I'd say the same thing (I've never said that about someone before).

 

Chi town you're also right that she probably wants me to sign the papers to make the official filling and she can officially openly date. But you mentioned something interesting, since the divorce takes 6 months to finalize & if she dates, is that technically an affair?

 

Also, I found out through her text that she was pissed that I threw away the journal b/c she wanted to keep it as evidence in case the courts asks for it. I know that would not be admissible, but it just really speaks to her level of thinking & planning. Early on (based on the time stamps) she seemed like she was open to reconciling with me, but shortly after all the outings with this guy it seems like she's infatuated with him. I don't know what to do.

 

I paid $500 for 3 sessions with this marriage coach to help me, but now I don't even feel like it. I'm contemplating just bringing all this out in the open (but of course, try to catch her first to see if she'll admit it). At the same time, I don't want to cause such drama where she'll really really try to be motivated to keep most of the assets out of spite (she was somewhat reasonable when we talked about this sensitive subject).

 

So what do you think I should do? Call her out on it...be more meticulous about my approach? This WHOLE time I've been posting in this thread I've been trying to find ways to save this marriage & I don't know anymore..I really don't. I'm confused.

 

It's 5:30am here & I'm just shattered with all these things in my mind...sorry for the rambling.

[PegNosePete]

Dude, you need to see an attorney and file for divorce NOW. Not tomorrow but today.

 

Do it now while she is in the affair fog. If she is desperate to complete the divorce in record time (so she can be with her new guy) then she may be more conceding with the finances and willing to co-operate with the divorce process, to speed things along. It's much better to do this with a willing spouse than an uncooperative one.

 

DO NOT sell the house.

DO NOT move out.

DO freeze all joint bank accounts and shared finances (so she can't empty them).

DO cancel any credit cards or other cards that she has in your name (so she can't build up debts).

 

In short, protect yourself financially. See an attorney ASAP.

Edited November 17, 2014 by PegNosePete

[Chi townD]

Dude, sorry. Sucks to be right sometimes.

 

 

And to be honest with you (because I want you to see the whole picture) she's probably slept with this guy. Or at least has taken it as far as you can without intercourse. I mean, you even said that the other night she came home at 4:30 in the morning (but another friend was with them till 1:30 AM) then what do you think they were doing for 2 hours? I mean, clubs and bars usually close at 2 AM! Plus, she's been throwing herself at this guy pretty hard! Wave bait in front of the fish's face enough times, sooner or later it's going to take a bite.

 

 

If you want their affair to end then, talk to a lawyer about writing up a cease and desist letter with the threat of an alienation of Affection lawsuit to the OM. Just the threat of being sued should be enough to throw your wife under the bus. He would think, "This bitch ain't worth all of this drama" and run for the hills.

 

 

Personally, I agree with Pete. She in an affair fog. She's got it in her head that she NEEDS to be with this other dude and would pretty much agree to ANYTHING in order to get what she wants. So, strike while the iron is hot. Protect yourself and what's yours. I strongly suggest that you carry a voice activated recorder (VAR) on you at all times (you can pic those up at Best Buy or Walmart). She doesn't want you in that house and it wouldn't surprise me if one of her friends suggest coming up with false allegations to have you removed. All it would take is her goating you into an argument and she'll be on the phone with the cops stating that you two are fighting and she doesn't feel safe with you there. And they will make YOU leave. Then, she'll be at the courthouse the next morning getting a restraining order out on you and she'll get it because there will be a record of a domestic. So, do NOT argue and carry that VAR on you for your own protection.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Chi townD

[GirlStillStrong]

I agree with ChiTown on the threat of her calling the cops and accusing you of battery. You put yourself in a bad position by remaining in close proximity. Help her get an apartment and move the hell out. The quicker you get this toxic mess out of your sphere, the better off you will be.

 

Whatever happens with the marriage happens and you shouldn't be all worried and anxious about it. Just calm down, get a grip, stop panicking, and take it one day at a time. What's going to happen is just going to happen; you can't control what another person does.

 

Be smart and protect yourself from what people are warning you about. And you paid the $500 so GO to the counselor and get help putting a plan together for how you are going to deal with this mess.

 

Take care.

[Young_gun82]

Dude, you need to see an attorney and file for divorce NOW. Not tomorrow but today.

 

Do it now while she is in the affair fog. If she is desperate to complete the divorce in record time (so she can be with her new guy) then she may be more conceding with the finances and willing to co-operate with the divorce process, to speed things along. It's much better to do this with a willing spouse than an uncooperative one.

 

DO NOT sell the house.

DO NOT move out.

DO freeze all joint bank accounts and shared finances (so she can't empty them).

DO cancel any credit cards or other cards that she has in your name (so she can't build up debts).

 

In short, protect yourself financially. See an attorney ASAP.

 

Thanks very much for your advice. I'm so emotionally disturbed that I really want to call her out on this **** now. If the shoe was on the other foot, she would be going ape crazy about how ****ed up I am for staying out late w/ a woman while we're still married (even if we are on bad terms). I know this is hypocritical, but I think it's almost worse or at least equal to what I did before we were married in the context that her exploits are recent DURING marriage while my faults were years ago BEFORE marriage. Am I wrong?

 

I only pause to react angrily about this particularly b/c of the imminent finance negotiation. B/c if there's any drama, her explosive temper will show up & it may not be as easy to do with w/ respect to our asset distribution. That said, would you recommend I hold off on bringing this info AFTER we file a petition? I trust after the petition is filed, she can amend it anytime before it finalizes in 6 months. If so, then perhaps that means I have to shut up for 6 months about this whole thing.

[Young_gun82]

Dude, sorry. Sucks to be right sometimes.

 

 

And to be honest with you (because I want you to see the whole picture) she's probably slept with this guy. Or at least has taken it as far as you can without intercourse. I mean, you even said that the other night she came home at 4:30 in the morning (but another friend was with them till 1:30 AM) then what do you think they were doing for 2 hours? I mean, clubs and bars usually close at 2 AM! Plus, she's been throwing herself at this guy pretty hard! Wave bait in front of the fish's face enough times, sooner or later it's going to take a bite.

 

Yes, I had the same observation as well...there's at least 2 hours of difference. I don't think she's the type that will sleep with him at all...at least initially. By the text mssgs b/w her friends, she indicated she wants him to be more aggressive in pursuing her (after she told him she decided to file for divorce), but the guy is apparently playing it cool & said to her dissappointment, "maybe you guys should get counseling". I think thats a ploy to raise his profile in front of her so she doesn't think he's taking advantage of him (yet, conversley, he goes out with her all the time & the text are non stop daily.)

[Young_gun82]

I agree with ChiTown on the threat of her calling the cops and accusing you of battery. You put yourself in a bad position by remaining in close proximity. Help her get an apartment and move the hell out. The quicker you get this toxic mess out of your sphere, the better off you will be.

 

Whatever happens with the marriage happens and you shouldn't be all worried and anxious about it. Just calm down, get a grip, stop panicking, and take it one day at a time. What's going to happen is just going to happen; you can't control what another person does.

 

Be smart and protect yourself from what people are warning you about. And you paid the $500 so GO to the counselor and get help putting a plan together for how you are going to deal with this mess.

 

Take care.

 

Thanks GirlStillStrong. I really needed to hear that. It's helpful when people here on this board can give it to me straight & ground my thinking. At the same time, I know this not sensible & illogical based on the facts, but I still question whether quiting the marriage at THIS stage is appropriate. Letting go is so hard, & I look at our wedding pictures hanging on the wall it destroys me.

 

I hired a marriage coach who specifically specializes in turning around potential divorces. As such, he wasn't trying to convince me one way or another, but he said if my goal remained to salvage the marriage he can offer guidance. His recommendations were for me to be as pleasant (not pursuing pleasant) as possible & get a life in the meantime to focus on my happiness & some spouses recognize change that would merit reconsidering divorce. I know, a long shot for my situation, I know.

 

I don't think she would be that malicious to call the cops on me. She wouldn't be able to create that idea w/ or without help of her circle of friends. She's malicious enough to joke with the guy via text that she didn't punch me this time. I couldn't believe that.

[Young_gun82]

Does anyone think she, in these last 3 weeks, is having an emotional affair? I know some have indicated possibly physical, but I somehow feel the emotional is just as bad.

 

I read texts about how this dude talked to her all night & confessed things he's never told anyone (thereby winning her trust/adoration). She was telling her friends how sweet it was & how gentlmen he is...ordering the most expensive pinor and opening the car door...etc. This has to be an emotional affair, no? Maybe I'm just overreacting... I even wikipedia'd it and they mention how the "friendship" leads to obsession by the cheating spouse & further distances them in their own marriage.

 

I'm sorry about constant posts, I'm working at home & all I can do is read these hundreds of text messages (yes, I took pictures of each one to document). It's just so troubling. I know I'm abusing myself mentally by reading them, but man, this is really tough. I still haven't told anyone I know (family/friends) about this apart from this community.

 

I want to bring what I learned up to her, but the conservative side in me says to hold it back until we get our financial agreement in order (hopefully favorably on my end) before I spill the beans. I want to let her know how hypricitical she has been to me & using what I've done in the past before our marriage as an excuse to date someone she's been admiring while we are married. Is it normal for someone to divorce within a 3 week time frame & ALREADY have a potential love interest?

[Downtown]

I don't think she would be that malicious to call the cops on me.

YoungGun, if she is a BPDer, you don't know what she is capable of when she is going through a divorce process. Indeed, there was a time when you didn't think she was capable of physically harming you -- as she's done on several occasions. Nor did you think she was capable of hitting herself to reduce her emotional pain. I therefore agree with Girl and ChiTown that you should be carrying a VAR to protect yourself from false allegations if she tries to have you arrested. As I noted earlier, it is very common for BPDers to have their spouses thrown into jail on a bogus charge. Indeed, my exW did exactly that to me.

 

During our last few extremely intense fighting, she resulted in hitting herself as she said it would help take some of the emotional pain away.

This self harming is particularly concerning. How bad was it? Did she slap herself, punch herself, or do head banging against the wall? Did she ever do cutting when she was younger? I ask because the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5) lists "self-harming behavior such as cutting" as a defining trait for only one disorder: BPD. That is, of the 157 disorders listed in DSM-5, only BPD has self harm listed as a defining trait. Moreover, many studies have shown that self harm like head banging and cutting is strongly associated with BPD. A 2004 hospital study, for example, found that

Self-mutilating behavior is a symptom seen in both men and women with various psychiatric disorders, but the majority of those who self-mutilate are women with borderline personality disorder. This complex, maladaptive behavior is used by clients as a means of self-preservation and emotion regulation, and is often associated with childhood trauma.

See

J Psychosoc Nurs Ment Health Serv. 2004

.

[will j]

Think hard about why you don't want a divorce. Does it have to do with you, or her? Could you be happy with someone else? If you want to try to fix this, you better be pretty sure it's the right thing to do.

[PegNosePete]

That said, would you recommend I hold off on bringing this info AFTER we file a petition? I trust after the petition is filed, she can amend it anytime before it finalizes in 6 months. If so, then perhaps that means I have to shut up for 6 months about this whole thing.

You should not bring it up EVER. What good would it do you?

 

You are getting divorced, not married. The idea is to separate - physically, financially and emotionally.

 

Starting an argument/fight will not help you in the slightest. Even if you win, what is the prize? The pleasure of being right? You already have that in your heart. Seeing her admit that you're right is worthless (and will never happen anyway).

 

Don't get distracted from the important issues. You need to take a tip from Gold Five... stay on target!

[Chi townD]

 

I hired a marriage coach who specifically specializes in turning around potential divorces. As such, he wasn't trying to convince me one way or another, but he said if my goal remained to salvage the marriage he can offer guidance. His recommendations were for me to be as pleasant (not pursuing pleasant) as possible & get a life in the meantime to focus on my happiness & some spouses recognize change that would merit reconsidering divorce. I know, a long shot for my situation, I know.

 

I don't think she would be that malicious to call the cops on me. She wouldn't be able to create that idea w/ or without help of her circle of friends. She's malicious enough to joke with the guy via text that she didn't punch me this time. I couldn't believe that.

 

 

Personally, I don't know why you would even want to try and save the marriage at this point. She's cheating on you and she doesn't care. She treats you like garbage and you are the victim of spousal abuse. Both mentally and physically. Her bragging to this guy that she didn't hit you this time and making a joke of it shows me that she has NO respect for you whatsoever. Therefore, it wouldn't shock me at all that she would make up false allegations against you to get you out. She doesn't respect you and doesn't care what happens to you! I haven't read one redeeming quality about her. Not one.

 

 

And you're paying an awful lot of money to a marriage coach to tell you to do the 180. Hell we could have told you to do that for free!