TIME CRITCAL: Meeting wife for first time tommorow, need guidance!

[GirlStillStrong]

GirlStillStrong - I understand the reasoning for everything in my head, but to answer you, my heart is holding everything back. We've had fights/arguments/break ups hundreds of times (I know, bad!) and we've always somehow recovered. I know that this isn't sustainable by any measure (and the journal discovery along w/ recent fight broke the camels back), but my experience of going through hard times to find compromise gives me hope. When you're desperate to save your marriage, your best friend & partner, you latch onto hope. Thats what I'm doing and it's entirely emotional I know, not logical. But in real time, I can't simply just call it quits and think about lawyering up or distributing assets as many of you have (logically, reasonably) suggested. Maybe I'm delusional, but it gives me hope.

Believe me when I tell you I understand about the emotional piece. Feelings and emotions are difficult for a lot of people. There are entire industries around trying to manage them. I hear you say you are open to counseling but she is not. But what is stopping you from pursuing counseling yourself? Maybe you would benefit from such an objective third party's input, to help you figure out why you apparently cannot be true to your vows and monogamous and how you can do so in the future.

 

Continuous fighting and making up is not normal or healthy. Why would you think this person would want to line up for more of the same with anyone? I personally would have done whatever I could to get you out of my life the FIRST time I found out you were not monogamous. That she stuck it out with you as long as she did is testament to her commitment and patience (and probably hope that you would turn around).

 

I know you have all these feelings and probably hurt but seriously, try to look at it from her perspective. She has said everything there is to say to you all these years and still you did not care to behave any differently. She doesn't WANT to compromise anymore, she's already been compromising and you keep delivering the same old crap.

 

Don't be desperate. It's not attractive and won't help you one bit. In fact, it will only hurt your case. Get yourself together, like I said go talk to someone for help with this. No woman wants to be with someone who is desperate! If you want to try to "win" her back, stand up tall, take a LONG, hard look at yourself, and start taking action to PROVE that you mean it when you say you will change. Otherwise, she KNOWS you are just bull-****ting her.

 

PS I didn't say to start distributing assets. I said to TALK to her about it. Communicate. Making a list of what you would like and what you would like to keep shows her that 1. You are LISTENING when she says she wants to move forward in her life, 2. You are COOPERATING with her, and 3. You are being PROACTIVE.

[GirlStillStrong]

Somehow, I feel she's giving me false hope just so I can agree to go to court with her.

Is this, perhaps, not because of anything she has said or done but actually because this is just how you think? Is the hope that she had all those years that you would turn it around YOUR fault? If you are worried about her trying to trick you into going to court with her, or trying to get one over on you, go consult some divorce attorneys. They give free consultations.

[Young_gun82]

Believe me when I tell you I understand about the emotional piece. Feelings and emotions are difficult for a lot of people. There are entire industries around trying to manage them. I hear you say you are open to counseling but she is not. But what is stopping you from pursuing counseling yourself? Maybe you would benefit from such an objective third party's input, to help you figure out why you apparently cannot be true to your vows and monogamous and how you can do so in the future.

 

Continuous fighting and making up is not normal or healthy. Why would you think this person would want to line up for more of the same with anyone? I personally would have done whatever I could to get you out of my life the FIRST time I found out you were not monogamous. That she stuck it out with you as long as she did is testament to her commitment and patience (and probably hope that you would turn around).

 

I know you have all these feelings and probably hurt but seriously, try to look at it from her perspective. She has said everything there is to say to you all these years and still you did not care to behave any differently. She doesn't WANT to compromise anymore, she's already been compromising and you keep delivering the same old crap.

 

Don't be desperate. It's not attractive and won't help you one bit. In fact, it will only hurt your case. Get yourself together, like I said go talk to someone for help with this. No woman wants to be with someone who is desperate! If you want to try to "win" her back, stand up tall, take a LONG, hard look at yourself, and start taking action to PROVE that you mean it when you say you will change. Otherwise, she KNOWS you are just bull-****ting her.

 

PS I didn't say to start distributing assets. I said to TALK to her about it. Communicate. Making a list of what you would like and what you would like to keep shows her that 1. You are LISTENING when she says she wants to move forward in her life, 2. You are COOPERATING with her, and 3. You are being PROACTIVE.

 

I appreciate you being direct with me. In a way, your counter points to me are precisely the manner my wife is communicating with me, albeit, more civil & it helps a lot to continue to see validation for her perspective.

 

I'm not going to justify my actions or explain them, but I do want to clarify that I have been faithful throughout our marriage & never had ambitions to be otherwise. I made poor choices when I was younger when we were together. I know her decision to divorce is a function of all the recent turmoil we've had, but to a point, I feel that most of the decision making is the emotional hurt she learned from the choices I made 13 years ago when I was a stupid teen... again, not to minimize my actions it at all. I'll be at peace if she was making this decision mostly based on our marriage troubles, but not what occurred then. But I absolutely understand, it's just very difficult right now.

 

I feel that if & when the divorce proceedings happen, I really don't know how I'll live my life. So far, my life begins & ends with her. I feel after this is over, I don't value anything in my life apart from my parents & siblings...but I don't see them that often. I won't want to see any friends or do anything, partly because I wont' be healed & I am ashamed. I'm ashamed of not being able to hold my marriage together, Im ashamed of my poor pathetic choices from years ago. I'm ashamed that I can offer true & real change, become a better person, turn this whole thing around, only when the end is imminent. I'm ashamed that I've had an awakening & true self reflection only when facing the point of our divorce. I'm ashamed that I become more self aware & value my wife so much more now & it's only after she's really really going to be gone this time. This hurts so much, I don't know how I'll live & get back on track.

 

For years in our marriage, I was struggling to succeed in my career & never really tasted financial success. We were making ends meet, but the progress of my work was slow & we had many stressful months because it was taking so long. And finally, finally I made a an epic break through this year & my financial success will continue for the foreseeable future. This accomplishment serves no help to me now b/c it didn't help my marriage. It helped our finances. But now I won't be able to share any of my success with her, the only person that matters to me.

[GirlStillStrong]

Oh, you weren't cheating on her? Then what were you fighting about all these years?

 

I'm not trying to be mean to you. I have a bunch of brothers and have had a bunch of BFs and I find myself saying the same things over and over. I know I'm not alone in this. But women DO expect a lot more of men than I believe men are actually capable of delivering.

 

I understand she is mad about the 19-yr old lies but seriously? That was over a decade ago. That is the problem with snooping; you never know what you're going to find. She really needs to let what you did long ago, go.

 

As for this: "So far, my life begins & ends with her." THIS IS VERY UNHEALTHY and you need to do something about this. Life does not begin and end with someone else, it begins and ends with YOU.

 

I feel after this is over, I don't value anything in my life apart from my parents & siblings...but I don't see them that often.

You will. I promise. I think you're just scared of the unknown right now. I think you're also getting verbally beaten up because someone is mad at you.

[Young_gun82]

Oh, you weren't cheating on her? Then what were you fighting about all these years?

 

I'm not trying to be mean to you. I have a bunch of brothers and have had a bunch of BFs and I find myself saying the same things over and over. I know I'm not alone in this. But women DO expect a lot more of men than I believe men are actually capable of delivering.

 

I understand she is mad about the 19-yr old lies but seriously? That was over a decade ago. That is the problem with snooping; you never know what you're going to find. She really needs to let what you did long ago, go.

 

As for this: "So far, my life begins & ends with her." THIS IS VERY UNHEALTHY and you need to do something about this. Life does not begin and end with someone else, it begins and ends with YOU.

 

 

You will. I promise. I think you're just scared of the unknown right now. I think you're also getting verbally beaten up because someone is mad at you.

 

GirlStillStrong - Are you trying to point out to me that cheating is cheating no matter how long it was? Or, are you truly asking me whether I did cheat during our marriage? I don't take your approach mean at all, it's just hard to decipher when reading an online message board.

 

But if I understood you correctly, yes, she's upset about my past choices coupled with our continuous fighting (which my past has always been in her mind.)

 

Perhaps she should let it go as you say. But, it's not that easy. What I did in the past merits the grudge. Before the journal, I mentioned in the beginning that during our engagement she discovered I was emotionally cheating on her through my online escapades. I never had a relationship, met these women, or even had more than 2 emails exchanged with them. However, I continued this shameful path of just engaging in this activity. She feels (understandably so) that I was actually looking for another partner. When in fact, I really truly wasn't looking to find a relationship (b/c if I was, then it would have happened & I would have met with people.) I'll never be able to explain to her my thought process (as strange/twisted as it is I'll admit), but to me, it was a shallow form of entertainment. Do you recall the old website: hotornot.com? Similar to today's Tinder dating site. It's where you spend time by shallowly rating people on their looks & they do the same to you. So the best way I can describe it, I was taking the same approach to these women online. It's sick, I know, but that's the truth. I was simply trying to validate if I was desirable & it was entertaining whether someone would respond. I would respond back & that was it, move onto the next.

 

I am extremely ashamed, embarrased, about what I did. It lasted years while we were dating up until our engagement. So now perhaps I've changed your mind again to understand why my didn't simply just "drop it" after all these years. These activities I did, she never forgave me for. She admitted that so and indicated that all her anger throughout our marriage was because of it. She saw a therapist last week & realized that she's always irritable, angry, ONLY AT ME bc she's never forgiven me. I understand. Justified.

[Young_gun82]

She's either seeing someone already or has someone in mind. THAT'S why she's pushing so fast for you to sign. She's manipulating you into signing your future away. If she wants to leave,let her, but you protect yourself. She's not going to do it for you and any attorney SHE hires won't do it for you either.

If she wants to sign so fast, YOU go get an attorney to draw up the papers the way YOU want and hand them to her. Watch how fast she backtracks and stalls then.

Hand em to her and tell her to "be a real woman and just sign".

 

Thanks DivorcedDad123 for your advice. I don't think she is seeing someone or has someone in her mind. But maybe I'm oblivious. She never has time to go out to meet people other than those at her work, all of whom, I know. The only thing I can think of, her urgency is b/c she doesn't want to find someone at an old age. She's turning 30 in Dec & indicated she doesn't want to keep this going on until she's over 40 & realize she has no chance anymore for love at that age. I understand, but I think that's the source of the urgency. Also, she's indicating that it's best we just get this out of the way now instead of dragging it out.

 

I trust you've been through the divorce proceedings. As much as I don't want to think about that now, I don't even know what she means by "signing the papers." I don't know if the petition needs to complete list of how we'd distribute assets or not. Or perhaps its just the initial statement to have the courts recognize we mutually want to end this.

[Young_gun82]

She is already thinking about divorce. She already brought it up so now you know how much she values your marriage as if treating you terribly and physically assaulting you weren't enough of an indication to penetrate your brain.

 

Anyway if you stay married which it seems like you are determined to do then I highly recommend seeing a counselor since you said you're more than willing to.

 

I wouldn't work on your marriage in counseling though...I'd work on you because any person who is being treated as badly as you are and allows it needs help.

 

Good luck.

 

Maybe I'm lying to myself, or exhibiting classic avoidance behavior. I know, but emotionally it's challenging for me to accept. I don't have any close friends or family who I've known that has divorced before. In our culture, it's almost non existent. We are expected to work things through. It's "american" to divorce as a solution. So this is new to me & never thought I'd be here...writing to all of you now. I'm a very very private person & I don't plan on telling my friends or family about this for a while, even if I wait 6 months. Its shameful to me.

 

I know I can change myself as I said before. But I have dealt with the physical & verbal lashing partly b/c of my guilt I have for all the wrongs I did to her. Had I not betrayed her in the past & she was destructive like this, I wouldn't have taken the blows. But I felt they were justified.

 

I may seek out a therapist, but in the interim, I did schedule an appt. with a marriage coach. Probably too little too late. Its costly, but if it saves my marriage it will be the best investment I could make.

[Fearful]

Sorry OP but never ignore the possibility of your wife being deep in her own affair. She has some one who she think treat her better and that is why she is 2 desperate to throw you off in less than a month. Divorce her at your own term. You should also have at the back of your mind that your life does not begin with her and will therefore not end because of her absence in your life. No woman is worth dying for.

[amaysngrace]

Maybe I'm lying to myself, or exhibiting classic avoidance behavior. I know, but emotionally it's challenging for me to accept. I don't have any close friends or family who I've known that has divorced before. In our culture, it's almost non existent. We are expected to work things through. It's "american" to divorce as a solution. So this is new to me & never thought I'd be here...writing to all of you now. I'm a very very private person & I don't plan on telling my friends or family about this for a while, even if I wait 6 months. Its shameful to me.

 

I know I can change myself as I said before. But I have dealt with the physical & verbal lashing partly b/c of my guilt I have for all the wrongs I did to her. Had I not betrayed her in the past & she was destructive like this, I wouldn't have taken the blows. But I felt they were justified.

 

I may seek out a therapist, but in the interim, I did schedule an appt. with a marriage coach. Probably too little too late. Its costly, but if it saves my marriage it will be the best investment I could make.

 

That's so backwards to not divorce because it's not in your culture to do so.

 

Do you know what is a shame? Getting beaten and making up excuses for why that's okay.

 

It's never okay.

[GirlStillStrong]

GirlStillStrong - Are you trying to point out to me that cheating is cheating no matter how long it was? Or, are you truly asking me whether I did cheat during our marriage?

I was truly asking whether or not you were cheating.

 

What happened in the past is in the past and is best left there. But if she cannot forgive, she could resent you forever. That is HER issue, though, that she will need to address sooner or later because if she does that with you, she will do that with anyone, and will find herself stuck in the same position no matter where she goes. It may take a while to learn this. It's difficult to learn this when you are with the same person and never get involved in another relationship (due to lack of experience). No one is perfect, we all make mistakes, and learning how to forgive and forget is a process. She's just not there yet and lord knows how long it will take for her to get there. It sounds to me like she has really high expectations of you, and since you are not meeting those expectations, she is unhappy and ready to move on to find the next guy who will not meet her expectations.

 

IDK if you know so I'm going to explain something. Stuff like what you describe you were doing on the internet can strike incredible fear in a girl's heart. To her, it can be the same as you cheating. So although you may not have gotten nekked with another woman, it may have felt no different to her. IDK how you reacted to her but if you were defensive, she would interpret that as you feeling you were justified. So often we ask ourselves, "If he was going to do that, what was the point in getting married?" I've come to the conclusion that there's just no point in getting married. It's difficult to make weekend plans with one another, much less whole life plans! Not only that, people change over the years and we are never again the same people we were when we married. To expect that is to be in denial.

 

I hope you stop saying "I deserve it" soon, because I don't think you do.

[GirlStillStrong]

She admitted that so and indicated that all her anger throughout our marriage was because of it. She saw a therapist last week & realized that she's always irritable, angry, ONLY AT ME bc she's never forgiven me. I understand. Justified.

I, too, blamed my anger on the people who made me angry. I had EVERY REASON to be angry at them, they WRONGED me and look how good and moral and helpful I am to everyone, especially the person who wronged me. I made all kinds of judments about people and cut ties and moved on. No forgiveness, not from me. It took me a long-ass time to figure this out for myself, Young Gun, but the truth of the matter is I am angry ONLY because of ME. NOT because of what someone did or said, or did or said to me. You are not at fault for her anger. SHE is.

[whatcanitellyou]

Sign the papers. Everything about your posts screams me, me, me. And there's huge, sexist is double standards in the advice given here; if a guy was here because he found out his wife cheated before marriage and was a compulsive liar he'd be told to divorce her now. She deserved the opportunity to make an informed choice when she married you and you didn't give that to her. You were probably too young settle down, and that's ok, but the lies are not ok. If I was her I'd never trust you again, and contrary several posts here she isn't required to get over it. By fighting the divorce you continue to be selfish. By all means get a lawyer to look over anything you sign to make sure it's fair, but for once let her make her own decision. By fighting her you push her away, and by the way never do really take responsibility for anything. I know I did it but it was so long ago..... you don't get to dictate how she feels about your infidelity. And you took the journal spare her feelings? Really? Not surprised she doesn't believe you.

[whichwayisup]

She's either seeing someone already or has someone in mind. THAT'S why she's pushing so fast for you to sign. She's manipulating you into signing your future away. If she wants to leave,let her, but you protect yourself. She's not going to do it for you and any attorney SHE hires won't do it for you either.

If she wants to sign so fast, YOU go get an attorney to draw up the papers the way YOU want and hand them to her. Watch how fast she backtracks and stalls then.

Hand em to her and tell her to "be a real woman and just sign".

 

I agree. Get a lawyer and know your rights. Protect yourself too, because right now she's driven by anger and resentment, not a healthy place at all. That hatred she is spewing out at you could turn nasty as time goes on, so lawyer up.

 

She wants to have complete control. Having a lawyer involved protects you both. She probably has a lawyer as well, but hasn't told you that.

[Young_gun82]

I was truly asking whether or not you were cheating.

 

What happened in the past is in the past and is best left there. But if she cannot forgive, she could resent you forever. That is HER issue, though, that she will need to address sooner or later because if she does that with you, she will do that with anyone, and will find herself stuck in the same position no matter where she goes. It may take a while to learn this. It's difficult to learn this when you are with the same person and never get involved in another relationship (due to lack of experience). No one is perfect, we all make mistakes, and learning how to forgive and forget is a process. She's just not there yet and lord knows how long it will take for her to get there. It sounds to me like she has really high expectations of you, and since you are not meeting those expectations, she is unhappy and ready to move on to find the next guy who will not meet her expectations.

 

IDK if you know so I'm going to explain something. Stuff like what you describe you were doing on the internet can strike incredible fear in a girl's heart. To her, it can be the same as you cheating. So although you may not have gotten nekked with another woman, it may have felt no different to her. IDK how you reacted to her but if you were defensive, she would interpret that as you feeling you were justified. So often we ask ourselves, "If he was going to do that, what was the point in getting married?" I've come to the conclusion that there's just no point in getting married. It's difficult to make weekend plans with one another, much less whole life plans! Not only that, people change over the years and we are never again the same people we were when we married. To expect that is to be in denial.

 

I hope you stop saying "I deserve it" soon, because I don't think you do.

 

It's refreshing to hear that your view of the past is the past & I will tell you that I would be in less of a predicament should she subscribe to the same belief system, but unfortunately, this is far from the case... which in my opinion is completely reasonable. Compulsive lying + validation of a physical betrayal is more than enough for her to never forgive me. But I believe your right, holding this back & not letting go is an issue she'll need to resolve in the relationship. However, she'll be the first to tell you that it's not an area she's willing to work on as she's already checked out of the relationship. Two weeks ago on the phone I asked if she's willing to go to marriage counseling & she was absolutely stunned I had the audacity to include her given I have my own issues I need to work on first.

 

I know you see my view that the online exchanges in my mind was less severe at the time & you're certainly sharing her thought process as she continually tells me to this day that I was "cheating for years..." She views it the same. I wish I could explain, but she'd never understand or want to understand. So there's no way I can soften her view on that.

[Young_gun82]

I, too, blamed my anger on the people who made me angry. I had EVERY REASON to be angry at them, they WRONGED me and look how good and moral and helpful I am to everyone, especially the person who wronged me. I made all kinds of judments about people and cut ties and moved on. No forgiveness, not from me. It took me a long-ass time to figure this out for myself, Young Gun, but the truth of the matter is I am angry ONLY because of ME. NOT because of what someone did or said, or did or said to me. You are not at fault for her anger. SHE is.

 

Again, I'd wish she came to the same epiphany as you have, but that's the selfish me wanting that outcome so that it would be easier to maintain the relationship. Yes it's HER anger, but that anger was a direct consequence of my poor decisions. I know all our issues can go both ways & certainly her suffocating control over me during the years didn't help. But I am not going to play victim & blame the fact she was bitching at me for so long that I needed to turn this direction. It was my fault. I am living with the consequences.

[Young_gun82]

I agree. Get a lawyer and know your rights. Protect yourself too, because right now she's driven by anger and resentment, not a healthy place at all. That hatred she is spewing out at you could turn nasty as time goes on, so lawyer up.

 

She wants to have complete control. Having a lawyer involved protects you both. She probably has a lawyer as well, but hasn't told you that.

 

Yes, getting a lawyer is a logical strategy but I think it can backfire. Actually, she is not driven by money or trying to "take everything". She would be fair & civil. However, should she feel I'm hiring the big guns, then her position may change & will likely push for her to fight for more. But that's not the case as I'm not driven by money either. I just want my wife & life back, a new & better one than before.

[Young_gun82]

Sign the papers. Everything about your posts screams me, me, me. And there's huge, sexist is double standards in the advice given here; if a guy was here because he found out his wife cheated before marriage and was a compulsive liar he'd be told to divorce her now. She deserved the opportunity to make an informed choice when she married you and you didn't give that to her. You were probably too young settle down, and that's ok, but the lies are not ok. If I was her I'd never trust you again, and contrary several posts here she isn't required to get over it. By fighting the divorce you continue to be selfish. By all means get a lawyer to look over anything you sign to make sure it's fair, but for once let her make her own decision. By fighting her you push her away, and by the way never do really take responsibility for anything. I know I did it but it was so long ago..... you don't get to dictate how she feels about your infidelity. And you took the journal spare her feelings? Really? Not surprised she doesn't believe you.

 

Wow - After reading your post, I thought you were actually her. I'm NOT in disagreement with 99% of what you said. Your right she can hold a grudge, but she knew going into the marriage about most of the issues & decided to keep the grudge throughout the lifetime of the marriage which never really allowed us to live the life we wanted. So it did not help. She is her own person & I cannot change her own inner feelings on infidelity. True.

 

What I do disagree with you, however, is that my intentions to salvage our marriage is portrayed in a negative light...call it what you want, selfish or whatever. But the fact that I'm trying to keep my family, my best friend, life partner together with me is something I feel is absolutely NOT unreasonable. My wife is valuable to me and anything in life that is valuable, is worth pursuing. If I only wanted to keep her for sex or a second income to support a lavish life style, I see where it would be selfish. But those are not my reasons. I'm fighting for our marriage where we both can be happy, together. I may be delusional that this can happen, but my pursuit is not with one sided intentions.

[GirlStillStrong]

in my opinion is completely reasonable

I disagree. It is NOT reasonable. It's understandable but it is not reasonable. I think you think it is reasonable because you are JUDGING yourself.

 

Compulsive lying + validation of a physical betrayal is more than enough for her to never forgive me.

I see what you did with the web site more as an addiction. I had a friend who was addicted to internet porn. His wife kicked him out of the house, he went to therapy and regrouped, and they got back together. It's actually quite common and pretty easy to get addicted to it. But either way, you should have been using your web site time for something more productive, like being close with your wife, or building her something, or whatever.

 

I don't think you understand what I'm saying about this whole forgiveness thing. Didn't you say she hits you when she gets angry? That is abuse and the mindset of an abuser is immature. If you want to agree with an immature abuser about your own worth, okay, but I don't recommend it. You are subscribing to her way of thinking about your own self (taking the "blame" and ignoring her own bad behavior). You were looking at other girls for God's sake, not raping or murdering them. Give yourself a break. Go talk to someone about the web site behavior, the hiding and the lying. I'm sorry but there is NO EXCUSE for hitting someone, and ESPECIALLY when the abuser blames the person they are hitting.

 

was absolutely stunned I had the audacity to include her given I have my own issues I need to work on first.

Yes, of course, I know this reaction well. Done it a million times. It's called Righteous Indignation and it gets you no where.

[Downtown]

Since the very beginning, she was very controlling & a jealous type of person. We've had huge arguments/fights/breakups so many endless times throughout our whole relationship, but the last few years has been deteriorating rapidly.... Most of the trouble started when she discovered I had online exchanges w/ women (dating websites, etc.) It was my fault.... We had a down spiral & tremendous fights...yelling & my W crying & she has been physically lashing at me (hitting/slapping). She was verbally destructive to me (cursing, demoralizing, attacking my manhood).

YoungGun, I agree with Girl that "It sounds like there is a lot of dysfunction going on." And, like Girl, I'm looking for clues as to whether your W's abusive behavior was the cause of your "huge fights" and your addictive online escape or, rather, the reverse was largely true -- i.e., your online addictive behavior as a teenager was the cause of her abusive behavior. Significantly, your comment that this behavior has been there "since the beginning" and "throughout our whole relationship" seems to suggest her abusive behavior started before she knew of your late-teen online escapades.

 

We've had fights/arguments/break ups hundreds of times.

Your W's "verbally destructive" behavior, physical abuse, and frequent breakups are some of the warning signs for having strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Physical abuse, for example, has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. See, e.g., the hospital study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers.

 

Moreover, three-quarters of BPDer relationships go through 3 or more complete breakup/makeup cycles before eventually ending for good. Indeed, about 40% of them go through 6 or more such cycles -- and 25% do 10 or more full breakup/makeup cycles before finally ending. See BPDfamily Breakup/Makeup Survey. As Girl observed, your "continuous fighting and making up is not normal or healthy."

 

I continued this shameful path of just engaging in this activity.... It's sick, I know, but that's the truth. I was simply trying to validate if I was desirable & it was entertaining whether someone would respond. .... I am extremely ashamed, embarrased, about what I did.

No, you don't know that. I agree with Girl that you're not describing "sick" behavior. We all occasionally exhibit stupid and immature behavior during the last half of our teens -- especially when we find ourselves in a relationship with a verbally abusive partner who keeps pushing us away. This is why Girl has been encouraging you to forgive yourself for behavior occurring more than a decade ago.

 

So I really need any help & thoughts on my approach.

I join Girl in suggesting that you see a counselor (ideally, a psychologist) -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you've been dealing with. Importantly, BPD is not something a person "has" or "does not have." Instead, it is a "spectrum disorder" that everyone has to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits BPD traits at a strong and fairly persistent level (as in "throughout our whole relationship"). Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any strong warning signs that are occurring if you take a little time to see what behaviors are on the list. Recognizing these signs is not difficult because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as strong verbal abuse, physical abuse, irrational jealousy, and always being "The Victim."

 

I therefore suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that discussion rings any bells, I would be glad to join Girl and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, YoungGun.

[GirlStillStrong]

I have to admit that I was also thinking of BPD when reading some of your descriptions, Young Gun. I wanted to suggest a book called Walking on Eggshells but I didn't want to be so forward about your situation since I obviously don't know that much. So please take a look at those warning signs Downtown provided. It really concerns me how much shame you say you feel about these things. You're only human!

 

And thank you so much for posting Downtown, the information and material you shared is invaluable.

[Young_gun82]

Ok. I've been able to read the last few responses as it relates to borderline personality disorder. It's a very interesting take & I will comment on them individually later today, but there's a few things that just happened:

 

Today, my parents pretty much busted in my head that I should just go home since I live there too. Given my wife blamed me & I've accepted the blame, I obliged to stay at my parents to give her time (though, we've never had any transparency to how long it would be especially after I she discovered the journal that same day later & that was the nail in the coffin.)

 

It's been 3 weeks already & I won't say thats enough time for anyone to heal, however, my position to her is that regardless of the outcome, we can't resolve anything in her way w/ me living an hour away. I came home while she was working at the hospital & found that she had a divorce summons printed (not filled in yet). Also, a business card for an apartment complex (she mentioned she would live with her good, single friend.)

 

Before she returned home, I was prepared to discuss the divorce proceedings. The marriage counselor I worked with pretty much told me the path to go is what she wants: tell her you'll accept the divorce & move on...if there's any chance she has doubt, that'll be the opportunity to address it. As such, when she got home she was pissed angry, shouting, crying madly. Saying she hates me & how I stole her life & that I'm selfish for not giving her enough time away and time to find a place to move. She said that me being here, was selfish & I should have stayed at my parents. So I never got to implement my intent to accept the divorce which she probably doesn't expect (though mentioned she's still pursuing obviously.)

 

So now I don't know what to do. The marriage coach indicated to me to be the 180 degree me (pleasant, collaborative, positive, understanding, un-argumentative, etc.) But obviously just being here alone was enough to throw ALL OF IT out the window. Not that the marriage coach would have foreseen this coming & now I'm stuck writing to you guys.

 

Very confused on what to do now.

[GirlStillStrong]

Sounds to me like you are listening to what everyone else thinks or wants you to do, and are not paying attention to what YOU want to do.

[Downtown]

The marriage coach indicated to me to be the 180 degree me (pleasant, collaborative, positive, understanding, un-argumentative, etc.)

That may be good advice if your W is a normal stable woman. If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), however, you always will be in a lose-lose situation no matter what you do. This occurs because a BPDer's two great fears are abandonment and engulfment, which lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME SPECTRUM. This means that, as you draw near to her to comfort her and assure her of your love, your intimacy will trigger her great fear engulfment -- a suffocating feeling of being controlled. She therefore will create a big fight -- over nothing at all -- in order to push you away/

 

Yet, as you back away to avoid triggering that fear by giving her breathing space, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering her other fear: that of abandonment. Importantly, there is no safe midpoints position where you can safely stand and avoid triggering both fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which doesn't exist.

 

Just being here alone was enough to throw ALL OF IT out the window.

If she has strong BPD traits, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE her anger. She's been carrying enormous anger and hurt inside since early childhood. Hence, you only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of anger that's always there. Indeed, even if you say or do nothing at all, your mere presence in the room is sufficient to trigger the release of a BPDer's anger.

 

Not that the marriage coach would have foreseen this coming.

Marriage counselors (MCs) usually are excellent in teaching couples how to improve their communication skills. Yet, if your W has strong BPD traits, her issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Indeed, teaching such skills to a BPDer who has not had years of training -- to address those more serious issues -- likely will make her only better at controlling you. Until a BPDer learns how to manage her emotional issues, going to a MC likely will be a total waste of time.

 

Very confused on what to do now.

Again, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. Like a psychologist, a psychiatrist also could tell you what is going on. Yet, because a psychiatrist also has a medical degree, his fee would be about double that of a psychologist. Hence, seeing a psychiatrist usually is advisable only when you need both a diagnosis and a prescription for medication.

 

Finally, I generally agree with the others advising you to stay in your own home. That makes sense if you're sure she is not so unstable that she will physically harm you or have you arrested on a bogus charge. Such false arrests are very common in BPDer relationships. My exW, for example, threw a temper tantrum and called the police -- having me thrown into jail for three days (until I could get before a judge in arraignment). She falsely claimed I had brutalized her.

[Young_gun82]

That may be good advice if your W is a normal stable woman. If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), however, you always will be in a lose-lose situation no matter what you do. This occurs because a BPDer's two great fears are abandonment and engulfment, which lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME SPECTRUM. This means that, as you draw near to her to comfort her and assure her of your love, your intimacy will trigger her great fear engulfment -- a suffocating feeling of being controlled. She therefore will create a big fight -- over nothing at all -- in order to push you away/

 

Yet, as you back away to avoid triggering that fear by giving her breathing space, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering her other fear: that of abandonment. Importantly, there is no safe midpoints position where you can safely stand and avoid triggering both fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which doesn't exist.

 

If she has strong BPD traits, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE her anger. She's been carrying enormous anger and hurt inside since early childhood. Hence, you only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of anger that's always there. Indeed, even if you say or do nothing at all, your mere presence in the room is sufficient to trigger the release of a BPDer's anger.

 

Marriage counselors (MCs) usually are excellent in teaching couples how to improve their communication skills. Yet, if your W has strong BPD traits, her issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Indeed, teaching such skills to a BPDer who has not had years of training -- to address those more serious issues -- likely will make her only better at controlling you. Until a BPDer learns how to manage her emotional issues, going to a MC likely will be a total waste of time.

 

Again, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. Like a psychologist, a psychiatrist also could tell you what is going on. Yet, because a psychiatrist also has a medical degree, his fee would be about double that of a psychologist. Hence, seeing a psychiatrist usually is advisable only when you need both a diagnosis and a prescription for medication.

 

Finally, I generally agree with the others advising you to stay in your own home. That makes sense if you're sure she is not so unstable that she will physically harm you or have you arrested on a bogus charge. Such false arrests are very common in BPDer relationships. My exW, for example, threw a temper tantrum and called the police -- having me thrown into jail for three days (until I could get before a judge in arraignment). She falsely claimed I had brutalized her.

 

Downtown - Thank you for your diagnosis (literal & symbolic) of my wife & our situation. I read all the links you provided me on BPDers & agree with many of the traits, they stuck out clearly. Based on the symptoms, she's exhibiting many of them. There are a few that I would say she would not fall into the category & I'll explain a little later.

 

The area that I would like to tackle, is the behavior you mention about the fear of abandonment. To me, she clearly is dead set on divorcing & did not show she had any doubt in doing so. Her intent is there, the planning is there (based on the business card for apartment I saw) she just hasn't committed to an apartment yet for timing & logistical issues I guess. That being said, she's not fearful at all for being "abandoned". She's eager to start her new life. I simply don't see her scared of being abandoned. If she was, then that would present my opportunity to reconcile. So how do you explain this? I'm interested on your take. Perhaps this trait doesn't apply to her.

 

The engulfment does resonate with me. I literally can't get close to her or touch her. She'll get very very upset. She explains that she's disgusted with me, apparently or that she's near me, so i have to sit across at a distance. But isn't that somewhat normal when someone is mad at you?

[Young_gun82]

After I wrote my initial entry today, she came downstairs angrily telling me that I shouldn't be here. That, I at least owe it to her to give her time to move out (as she has no real family to depend on). She has had a rough childhood (father died when she was 4, mother & step father were terrible terrible parents). I have a good family & subsequently, she said I should take advantage of that resource. But it's clearly a resounding yes that shes going to divorce.

 

As I followed the advice of the marriage counselor, the act of telling her something to the effect of, "I messed up really bad, despite that, I really do think you deserve better & have a happy life even if that means it's not with me. So I won't get in your way in what you want to do & if that means signing the divorce petition, we can do that."

 

Once I told her that, she got pissed. She said, "you really care about me do you? Thats why you caused all this hurt for all these years & cheated on me"

"you being here really just validates that I'm doing the right thing & that you're so selfish. I'm glad that I'm doing this now rather than when I'm 40"

 

So yes, my advice I took backfired. Not there fault at all, nothing is going to work.

 

Moving forward, I tried to explain that the reason I'm here wasn't to upset her, but if we are truly going to divorce we'll have to discuss the petition which includes finances. This was VERY VERY uncomfortable. She thinks I'm going to screw her since I have a finance background & have been very thrifty with our money together. I tried to be fair the whole way through, but we may have issues with the house we just bought.

 

She just left right now & is all dressed out to go somewhere tonight with her friends. I wonder if this was an initial plan or as a consequence to me being here (I saw constant text from her friends asking if she was ok.) This really really hurts. She's so beautiful, really. I know there will be so many men interested in her wherever she goes.

 

What have I done...