Do they ever get what they've really done?

[No Limit]

If you are so curious, look up for social psychology, the process of perception in particular.

 

The affair fog for example (which causes the cheater this sick pleasure through their actions) is actually nothing more than a defect in their perception (interestingly, unfaithfulness is also often considered a social defect, but that's another topic with too much content). The cheater may even go to the point of glorifying their affair, justifies it through whatever means, the "wrong feeling" gets pushed away as good as possible, thoughts of consequences are non-existant. Our teacher explained this so greatly today, and the effects are also pretty interesting to look at. Easiest one is probably the 'projection effect'; characteristics a person doesn't like about him/herself get projected on to others (that's why some betrayed spouses might have been asked if they were ever unfaithful prior to D-Day, that's also where the "Oh but everyone else does it too!"-thinking comes from).

 

More dangerous defects for the BS was probably the "primacy effect"; you remember your first impression of your WS (oh, he/she could never do that to anyone!) and earlier information that your brain has safely stored in your memory rather than taking in the current and not-so-positive information. After D-Day I assume it's also probably part of your brains' inner emergency mode; even your unconsciousness hates being betrayed.

 

Social psychology is terribly interesting (and to some extent the only reason I'm in this forum since I rather keep my hands off when it comes to relationships). But it also makes you aware of how little thought people are giving into their actions. Many experiments from Soloman Asch show that instinct is ever present, even in the self-titled 'crown of creation'.

 

And congratulations to the new-and-better-relationship.

[jnel921]

Thankfully my H got it. He is a different person now and handles us and me with a different mindset.

 

Some WS do and some don't. My first H never did and never will. It's the selfishness that keeps them ignorant.

 

BS...we get it and more. Which is why if it happened more than once to us....like me...we are better prepared.

 

If life is good for you...keep it that way. Don't go backwards. No one is worth that final look when the door shuts behind you.

 

Good Luck!

[merrmeade]

If you are so curious, look up for social psychology, the process of perception in particular.

 

The affair fog for example (which causes the cheater this sick pleasure through their actions) is actually nothing more than a defect in their perception (interestingly, unfaithfulness is also often considered a social defect, but that's another topic with too much content). The cheater may even go to the point of glorifying their affair, justifies it through whatever means, the "wrong feeling" gets pushed away as good as possible, thoughts of consequences are non-existant. Our teacher explained this so greatly today, and the effects are also pretty interesting to look at. Easiest one is probably the 'projection effect'; characteristics a person doesn't like about him/herself get projected on to others (that's why some betrayed spouses might have been asked if they were ever unfaithful prior to D-Day, that's also where the "Oh but everyone else does it too!"-thinking comes from).

 

More dangerous defects for the BS was probably the "primacy effect"; you remember your first impression of your WS (oh, he/she could never do that to anyone!) and earlier information that your brain has safely stored in your memory rather than taking in the current and not-so-positive information. After D-Day I assume it's also probably part of your brains' inner emergency mode; even your unconsciousness hates being betrayed.

 

Social psychology is terribly interesting (and to some extent the only reason I'm in this forum since I rather keep my hands off when it comes to relationships). But it also makes you aware of how little thought people are giving into their actions. Many experiments from Soloman Asch show that instinct is ever present, even in the self-titled 'crown of creation'.

 

And congratulations to the new-and-better-relationship.

Thanks for sharing this and a little more of your life situation. Based on your prolific posts, apparent age and experience level, I wondered why you'd be so interested in the Infidelity forum and how all this extremely mature content would color your future perspective on relationships. (No need to answer or thread-jack further.)

 

Providing up-to-date scientific references from social or behavioral psychology could be useful. I'd be interested...

[Spark1111]

Some do....I think....and some never do.

 

I work with someone who has justified EVERY crappy thing she ever did to her faithful H....and still does.

 

He has since remarried and ironically, she is now dating a man very Similiar to the H she cheated on, the one she bad mouthed every day. That xMM? He dropped her like a hot,potato and has since married a chaste woman who never had a clue to what a PLAYER he had been when he threw his M overboard...

 

Go figure.....

 

When I stopped railing and raging about my fWS affair....when I found peace and consciously decided I no longer cared about his poor behavior....is when HE allowed himself to GET it.

 

Go figure.....

 

He feels remorse every day now that I no longer care to beat him over the head with it anymore....One day, one minute at a time, I am happy and at peace.

 

And he can't stop apologizing or taking extra steps to make me feel secure, loved and cherished even thought I no longer need it anymore.

 

yeah, domineering and disapproving mother issues that had nothing to do with me.....like the affair and the AP.

 

Go figure.....

[AlwaysGrowing]

Absolutely some get it....and absolutely some don't.

 

For those that do get it. I have found that often they are much like Morgan Freeman in the Shawshank Redemption. So far removed from their past poor choices that they see things so clearly...Laser-ish almost. They feel remorse from within....not externally. For most, it is something they hate that belongs to them...and the further they can distance themselves from the old them...the better they feel about themselves and the future.

 

Folks who have been through self-betrayal (because that is the first person they betrayed), and have journeyed thru healing are those folks who are more understanding, quick to give honest kicks-in-the-butt, grateful, enjoy the quiet, enjoy their crazy family more. Because they KNOW, on a cellular level, how quickly life can turn on a dime and how our choices effect others. And that it is always in our power to leave either light or dark in our wake.

[meandmycats]

It took me a long time to gather my wits and get rid of what was hurting me most. My ex partner. She was gregarious and a real charmer, that's why I fell in love with her, but she was rotten and selfish to the core underneath all that and I just would not see it for what it was.

 

 

Although I know that she is miserable with her lot now (some of her family are people I bump into periodically. Some of them are a bit dysfunctional too if I'm honest), I have no doubt that she is no different, but I do think it's sad that she might never learn any valuable lessons to take into a healthy relationship in the future. I really don't think she will ever take any real responsibility for her behaviour. She just doesn't think she has to.

 

 

I on the other hand, have a Mother who has been my endless rock (it probably helps a bit that she's a highly respected therapist as well, although I don't let her look too closely in my face sometimes!), and a Dad who I know loves me no matter what and has supported me through a terrible time even though I know he must have been juggling his own remorse and feelings over his own behaviour. He put that aside to make me feel I could tell him anything.

 

 

Today I am in a very good place and thankful for that.

[NYWoman]

My second husband was into golf and fishing. The jerk never once took the time to teach his sons. He couldn't be bothered, as he was off deep sea fishing, or to Alaska, or Mexico.

My first H, was good at about everything he put his mind too. He too was into fishing. He was a great fisherman, we always caught fish, and he was a great teacher. He taught me how to fish, and it was me who taught my boys how to fish.

He also was good at building models. When we were together, he built my then young niece a small doll house. He didn't need a kit, he bought some scale (I think they call it) sized boards and sticks and built it about a week. When he drove past my mom's house he was driving this old beat up pickup truck, so it is hard to miss him. I have since learned that a couple of times each summer he will take a couple of inner city kids, who have never been fishing out for a days fishing.

On the night we were out looking at lights, the large garage door was open and there sat his truck.

I get it.

[Bittersweetie]

Absolutely some get it....and absolutely some don't.

 

For those that do get it. I have found that often they are much like Morgan Freeman in the Shawshank Redemption. So far removed from their past poor choices that they see things so clearly...Laser-ish almost. They feel remorse from within....not externally. For most, it is something they hate that belongs to them...and the further they can distance themselves from the old them...the better they feel about themselves and the future.

 

Folks who have been through self-betrayal (because that is the first person they betrayed), and have journeyed thru healing are those folks who are more understanding, quick to give honest kicks-in-the-butt, grateful, enjoy the quiet, enjoy their crazy family more. Because they KNOW, on a cellular level, how quickly life can turn on a dime and how our choices effect others. And that it is always in our power to leave either light or dark in our wake.

 

Always growing, thank you for this post. It really resonated with me.

 

I may not understand the actual pain my H went through, but I saw it. And I now understand the consequences of choices and how fragile life and relationships are. I am thankful for what I have now and that I am no longer the person who made the choices I did. I don't know if that's "getting it" but that is where I am right now.

[Got it]

Since your father is a WS. Have you asked him? He may be able to give you the best insight to these questions at least from his experience.

 

Yes I think some WS can get it. Some are very remorseful and I think "get it" as closely as someone can who hasn't directly gone through it.[/QUOT

 

 

I hadn't thought about this direct approach actually. We are a very close and supportive family. I laugh because my other half thinks we're all nuts! But truthfully, I have never discussed it with him because I didn't feel it was right to.

 

 

 

Why wouldn't you? Especially if it has affected your feelings towards your father as well as having infidelity hit you personally as well in your romantic relationship. Getting your father's perspective, what he learned, didn't learn, realized, may help you.

 

My father was a BS, even though I was a WS, talking to him and getting his perspective was very helpful for me.

[merrmeade]

Absolutely some get it....and absolutely some don't.

 

For those that do get it. I have found that often they are much like Morgan Freeman in the Shawshank Redemption. So far removed from their past poor choices that they see things so clearly...Laser-ish almost. They feel remorse from within....not externally. For most, it is something they hate that belongs to them...and the further they can distance themselves from the old them...the better they feel about themselves and the future.

 

Folks who have been through self-betrayal (because that is the first person they betrayed), and have journeyed thru healing are those folks who are more understanding, quick to give honest kicks-in-the-butt, grateful, enjoy the quiet, enjoy their crazy family more. Because they KNOW, on a cellular level, how quickly life can turn on a dime and how our choices effect others. And that it is always in our power to leave either light or dark in our wake.

So important... that "remorse from within" because, IMHO, it's the "within" that begins the awareness that informs behavior. I realize that I already had that awareness from my mother. She taught me, engaged me in dialogue, started the thought process that made me KNOW even before puberty that once I was married, I would be responsible to protect the marriage, even from myself. I knew how I would act in the future because this dialogue had started a thought process I continued on my own, which helped define my values and ultimately developed my awareness of what impulses provoke what actions and the ability to decide how I wanted to respond to these impulses. My H never had that conversation, never started the thought process, never developed the values that would protect our marriage. I did not know everyone did not have a mother like mine or that in-born wish to understand oneself and one's relationships.

 

I think that we start in childhood to make choices about thoughts and actions based on the world view we've either consciously developed or inherited from family, culture or religion. Without that, how do people learn to self-monitor, face honestly the contradictions in their thinking and/or behavior and act according to their core beliefs? How does a flirtatious encounter between two individuals, one of whom is married, get nipped in the bud, stopped or redirected right at the birth of the first response to an attraction?

 

Does remorse reprogram behavior by itself? I don't think so. I think a WS is in a sort of arrested development and needs the same dialogue to start the thought process that ultimately will change behavior. And I don't think a BS can give that instructive feedback. The BS can only show the effect of the WS's actions.

 

That's as far as I've gotten...

 

Of course, this line of thinking implies that (a) one is responsible for one's actions and ultimately one's own happiness and (b) one can, therefore, be reasonably happy and fulfilled with, well, maybe anyone that's sort of close in values, interest and background. And, yes, I do believe that arranged marriages can be just as fulfillingas "love" marriages, perhaps more so in a supportive culture. But that's just another topic...

Edited October 15, 2014 by merrmeade

[DKT3]

So important... that "remorse from within" because, IMHO, it's the "within" that begins the awareness that informs behavior. I realize that I already had that awareness from my mother. She taught me, engaged me in dialogue, started the thought process that made me KNOW even before puberty that once I was married, I would be responsible to protect the marriage, even from myself. I knew how I would act in the future because this dialogue had started a thought process I continued on my own, which helped define my values and ultimately developed my awareness of what impulses provoke what actions and the ability to decide how I wanted to respond to these impulses. My H never had that conversation, never started the thought process, never developed the values that would protect our marriage. I did not know everyone did not have a mother like mine or that in-born wish to understand oneself and one's relationships.

 

I think that we start in childhood to make choices about thoughts and actions based on the world view we've either consciously developed or inherited from family, culture or religion. Without that, how do people learn to self-monitor, face honestly the contradictions in their thinking and/or behavior and act according to their core beliefs? How does a flirtatious encounter between two individuals, one of whom is married, get nipped in the bud, stopped or redirected right at the birth of the first response to an attraction?

 

Does remorse reprogram behavior by itself? I don't think so. I think a WS is in a sort of arrested development and needs the same dialogue to start the thought process that ultimately will change behavior. And I don't think a BS can give that instructive feedback. The BS can only show the effect of the WS's actions.

 

That's as far as I've gotten...

 

I don't know that talking gets much done until the WS is in a position to listen and change. I think before that they tend to placate, telling you whatever they feel will slow you down. Much the way they do during the affair.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but word got me no where. Oh but once I started to ignore her and focused solely on me and the kids it got her attention. When she got served she became a bawling snot blowing mess that was open to everything, willing to tell everything. Its too late NOW, that time passed.

 

Nah, its actions that they understand, its actions that start change. Its the only thing someone so wrapped up in themselves can understand.

[katielee]

I didn't get it until it was done to me but I think I was on my way to understanding. I was starting to get that I betrayed and lied to myself first... . Then he did it to me and i got it big time.. But he knew what it felt like, did it to me, and then did it again. It's the 2nd one that still gets me. And makes it so very difficult to recover from. It's like, let me shove that knife in a little bit more...

 

And being I actually HAVE values now, I have to make healthy choices, not acting out choices like having another affair. IT makes me feel good that I have this integrity. But I wish it hadn't come at such a price. To both of us.

[SycamoreCircle]

but that gut punch you get when you first find out is nothing anyone can fully "get" unless its happened to them-

 

When I discovered it, through reading her e-mails, I immediately e-mailed myself their correspondence. Then, returning to bed, I began composing an e-mail which exposed the whole thing, including excerpts, which I sent to all of her friends, her lover and her mother.

 

The whole time I was typing I was trembling. It was the strangest thing. Completely involuntary. It was like I was standing outside of myself observing this nervous physical state. My hands were shaking. My breath was fluttery and my abdomen quivered. I've never experienced anything like that before. The name of the e-mail was "Everyone, please excuse my trembling..."

[meandmycats]

When I discovered it, through reading her e-mails, I immediately e-mailed myself their correspondence. Then, returning to bed, I began composing an e-mail which exposed the whole thing, including excerpts, which I sent to all of her friends, her lover and her mother.

 

The whole time I was typing I was trembling. It was the strangest thing. Completely involuntary. It was like I was standing outside of myself observing this nervous physical state. My hands were shaking. My breath was fluttery and my abdomen quivered. I've never experienced anything like that before. The name of the e-mail was "Everyone, please excuse my trembling..."

 

 

You poor chap, my goodness you must have been feeling like your world had just caved in on you!

[katielee]

When I discovered it, through reading her e-mails, I immediately e-mailed myself their correspondence. Then, returning to bed, I began composing an e-mail which exposed the whole thing, including excerpts, which I sent to all of her friends, her lover and her mother.

 

The whole time I was typing I was trembling. It was the strangest thing. Completely involuntary. It was like I was standing outside of myself observing this nervous physical state. My hands were shaking. My breath was fluttery and my abdomen quivered. I've never experienced anything like that before. The name of the e-mail was "Everyone, please excuse my trembling..."

 

it is a rather out of your body experience. I caught the live show in the park - hubby on top of OW2. I dropped him off at the house, told him I was leaving and went out to eat at Applebees. Ordered a huge salad and a stiff drink. No tears.

[SycamoreCircle]

it is a rather out of your body experience. I caught the live show in the park - hubby on top of OW2. I dropped him off at the house, told him I was leaving and went out to eat at Applebees. Ordered a huge salad and a stiff drink. No tears.

 

Yes, out of body experience. I once met a man who was involved in a terrible car accident. He was in a convertible and the car crashed into another car. He was thrown from the convertible and remembers, as he was flying in the air, serenely witnessing the whole thing from his higher altitude. That's sort of how it felt to me. Like it was so utterly impossible, I could not properly absorb it.

 

No tears? I'm always envious of people on LS whose reaction to the thing defies guilt, self-pity and wallowing.

[katielee]

No tears? I'm always envious of people on LS whose reaction to the thing defies guilt, self-pity and wallowing.

 

oh Sycamore, they came later. I was in shock. I've been crying for two years.

[merrmeade]

When I discovered it, through reading her e-mails, I immediately e-mailed myself their correspondence. Then, returning to bed, I began composing an e-mail which exposed the whole thing, including excerpts, which I sent to all of her friends, her lover and her mother.

 

The whole time I was typing I was trembling. It was the strangest thing. Completely involuntary. It was like I was standing outside of myself observing this nervous physical state. My hands were shaking. My breath was fluttery and my abdomen quivered. I've never experienced anything like that before. The name of the e-mail was "Everyone, please excuse my trembling..."

Yeah. I know. It's about as visceral as it gets. I discovered through texts and emails, also, but didn't have the nerve to expose. I also didn't spin cerebral bullsh-t about childhood influences. Nothing could have prepared me for the spiritual and emotional devastation that followed and continues, nor did he have any clue then or now what that was or why. I don't think they ever get what they've done until they experience betrayal first-hand.

[SycamoreCircle]

oh Sycamore, they came later. I was in shock. I've been crying for two years.

 

Have you had any sort of romantic involvement since the BU?

 

About 3 months post BU, I went traveling and hooked up with some different women but now at 7 months, I feel sexually debilitated. I just can't go there. There was a woman at work who tried to get close and I just couldn't go there. It's just something I don't want to feel.

[katielee]

BU?

 

I'm still with my husband....

[AlwaysGrowing]

Yeah. I know. It's about as visceral as it gets. I discovered through texts and emails, also, but didn't have the nerve to expose. I also didn't spin cerebral bullsh-t about childhood influences. Nothing could have prepared me for the spiritual and emotional devastation that followed and continues, nor did he have any clue then or now what that was or why. I don't think they ever get what they've done until they experience betrayal first-hand.

 

While it may be true that they might not know what it feels like to be betrayed....many BS do not know what it feels like to be a remorseful WS.

 

In my own life, it has been the times that I fell from grace that effected me more profounded. Because I was the one responsible....and I knew it.

 

Having a knife in ones back is very different than the one looking at the knife in their bloody hands.

 

It is extremely soul crushing to realize that total disregard for another resided inside of you. Looking in a mirror is difficult. Self-forgiveness even more.

[BetrayedH]

it is a rather out of your body experience. I caught the live show in the park - hubby on top of OW2. I dropped him off at the house, told him I was leaving and went out to eat at Applebees. Ordered a huge salad and a stiff drink. No tears.

 

Nice of you to give him a ride.

[DasPope]

They can "get" some of it, most of it... in abstract perhaps. As a intellectual concept.

They can sense your pain as a BS ...react to that and develop feelings both emotional and intellectual on that plane.

Do they actually get "it" ?

No

I don't think its possible to explain to other people.

I don't think anyone who hasn't been through it "gets" it.

But ...

Of all people they probably get more of it then most....

[ComingInHot]

Maybe the only way for them to TRULY 'get it' is to make them become a BS themselves...

 

Sickly and sadly, I've had my fair share of revenge fantasies regarding this in the wake of His Affair

[katielee]

I dunno cominginhot. It's been almost 5 years and I still struggle with self forgiveness, and the guilt of causing myself BS pain because of my WS actions. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.