Any Muslims here?

[serial muse]

This country is going to crap not because of money or even the love of money (which is the root of all evil), but the simple fact that we've pushed God aside and decided we, humanity, knows what it best for us. Not our Creator.

 

That, my friend, is the beginning of the end of time.

 

No my friend, Christianity does not. In fact, Jesus says to "turn the other cheek" and to "love your enemy". It's the Old Testament, when God was trying to set a place for Jews, that He had asked them to take over territory. When Jesus came, he was the atonement for our sins. Through Christ we should have had peace. But Islam was born 600 years after Christ and now we'll never have peace. If there is violence in Christian beliefs, it's not from Christ. It's man's spin on God's word.

 

Well, that's convenient. So, we're passing off horrors committed in the name of Christianity as man's spin, but horrors committed in the name of Islam as endemic to the religion? How easy was that?

 

So that's how we account for the Crusades, persecutions of heretics, the Inquisition, the Reformation, the Counter-Reformation, assorted centuries of colonial conquests/rapes/pillaging, assorted pogroms, and so on and so forth. All that stuff was just, you know. Spin.

 

I'm not saying Islam is better. Man is still man, and sure, he's gonna spin the Quran in the exact same way. Just that, as someone who actually majored in European history, I know wayyyyyy too much about Christianity to see it as peaceful. I mean, come on.

 

As for the bit about this being the end of time - again, anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the Middle Ages will find that hilarious. I know I do. Our lives are easy, soft, and basically awesome in comparison with what people have lived through in the past. For anyone living here in the godless West, this outbreak of Ebola is rather interesting to read about or watch on TV, is it not? Tell it to the third of Europe that died in the Black Plague. (hey, thanks, science)

 

And in a way Cali is right about there being no peace until Islam goes away. It was born out of a desire by the Arabs to adopt christianity but set themselves apart at the same time. And it serves the same purpose today. As long as people willingly set themselves apart there will always be conflict.

 

I'm sure that's what the Jews thought when a guy named Jesus came along and basically did the same exact thing.

Edited October 21, 2014 by serial muse

[umirano]

It's kind of hard to argue that religion overall doesn't end up being superior.

Wrong. It's actually very easy. In any metric used by social science / economics, like income, life expectancy, alphabetization or income distribution less religious societies outperform religious societies.

 

Religion is designed to keep people dumb and to prevent them from asking too many questions, especially not about authorities. A core teaching of any religion is to "rely" (the two words are etymologically linked) instead of investigating. This teaching is damaging to all our progress. It makes people unhappy because religious explanations are not satisfying. They're usually hollow and distant from people's daily experience. The gap created by religious explanations in people's mind is hard to overcome, because of the fear of god's punishment for questioning him, that's implanted by the same religion.

 

Religion in the end is nihilistic. Nothing is worth anything, we're all just pieces on a chess board. Everything is up to god. He can, and in fact will, destroy everything that ever existed, just to prove a point. That is nihilism in its most unpitying form. I don't understand how a compassionate and intelligent human being can subscribe to the intellectually and ethically bankrupt concept that religion is.

[aj22one]

The Qu'ran was written about 630 AD. We know Muhammad wasn't literate so he had other people 'help write down his ideas and thoughts'. From a historical standpoint, I have learned that not only did Muhammad have copies of both the Old and New Testament, but he also took the literary works of the Wikkan religions and others at the time.

 

Haha, wouldn't do him much good if he was illiterate. haha

 

Any Muslim scholars want to kick in here? I don't want to get into the whole beheading thing, but I do know Muhammad's most beloved wife, when he married her, was a ripe 6 years of age..... (cough).....

 

Muhammad's most beloved wife was Khadijah. She was 15 years his senior (40 when he was 25) and proposed to him. haha

 

I'm not Muslim btw, my wife is.

[gaius]

Wrong. It's actually very easy. In any metric used by social science / economics, like income, life expectancy, alphabetization or income distribution less religious societies outperform religious societies.

 

Religion is designed to keep people dumb and to prevent them from asking too many questions, especially not about authorities. A core teaching of any religion is to "rely" (the two words are etymologically linked) instead of investigating. This teaching is damaging to all our progress. It makes people unhappy because religious explanations are not satisfying. They're usually hollow and distant from people's daily experience. The gap created by religious explanations in people's mind is hard to overcome, because of the fear of god's punishment for questioning him, that's implanted by the same religion.

 

Religion in the end is nihilistic. Nothing is worth anything, we're all just pieces on a chess board. Everything is up to god. He can, and in fact will, destroy everything that ever existed, just to prove a point. That is nihilism in its most unpitying form. I don't understand how a compassionate and intelligent human being can subscribe to the intellectually and ethically bankrupt concept that religion is.

You miss the fact that all the countries in Europe and America built their recent wealth on the backs of their religious forefathers. With rare exception every country in the west is now in some form of decline. Now that atheism is on the rise. Coincidence? Maybe, but it certainly doesn't help the case.

 

Seriously, your argument is that Paris Hilton's ways are the best because she lives the best. =/ I'm no fan of Muslims on an emotional level but I have to say I admire ISIS in some ways. When I hear they're cutting off the fingers of their own fighters who touch the yazidi women they've captured inappropriately. Based on the reports I read they have a very non corrupt way about them. And it's probably a big part of the reason they're so successful. Over here it's more tribal and more corrupt. You can't get an atheist liberal to say a bad word about Trayvon Martin even after it's clear to any reasonable person he was in the wrong. Cause he's part of their team. =/ And that's a huge form of corruption that's infecting almost every choice we make as a society nowadays. To our own detriment.

 

The only reason we aren't suffering more because of it is because we have the Hilton family fortune to squander.

[ffw]

 

If you want violence, read the Qu'ran. That is a book on "Do as we say or we kill you".... it's the most barbaric religion on the planet

 

 

 

Errr...OP, I thought as an intellectual person you are more curious, open minded and want to know about other religion rather than just bashing with your illiterate knowledge. Unfortunately, it seems there are not many Muslims on this site to explain and clarify their prospective on Islam.

 

 

Since you claim to read Quran, then I am not sure how miss the part when Allah (God) says if you kill an innocent person (including non-believer) it is as you killed the whole humanity and vice-versa. Please tell me which other religion preaches this clearly?

 

 

All religions has a violence side including Buddhism. If you want to quote all the violent quotes from other religions then you will find the most in Mahabharata, Hinduism. No disrespectful in any sense to the mentioned religions. So, lets not play blame game and paint whole religion with a single brush.

 

 

If you ask me religion does not bring peace nor violence it depends on what you bring to it. Cheers.

[A.Moscote]

Religion in the end is nihilistic. Nothing is worth anything...

That is an interesting view, I've came across some Muslims who share it with you (though I don't know how they arrived at it). Personally for me, I find the Quran stress so much on good deed, that it seems like it worth everything. Since we also believe what we do in this world will be considered and recompense in the next world, I can say this life is purposeful. So nihilism can never be my concept or be practiced in my life. What do you think?

 

Religion is designed to keep people dumb and to prevent them from asking too many questions...

...to "rely" instead of investigating.

The Quran compel us to believe in god by asking us to think, to question, to investigate, to reason, etc. How could we believe in anything without doing so?

 

Those who blindly follow are ridiculed upon, whether they are Muslim or not. Sounds like it almost consider them as having a lower thinking capacity. At least that is the perception I got from the Quran.

[CrystalCastles]

That is where radical Islam thrives. "Think like we think or we KILL you..."

 

1.2 billion Muslims, 350 million of them RADICAL Islamist. Again, there will never be peace on Earth until Islam itself (and it's Qu'ran) are gone.

 

I have a few things to say about that.

 

First off, in every religion, there are violent people and there are non-violent people. There are people who interpret the Qu'ran however they want to, just like Christians and the Bible. But not every Muslim is a bad person, and not every Muslim is a radical. So to hate an entire religion for a few psychopaths is wrong. I know quite a few Muslims who are very nice people.

 

Its the same with Christians. I am a Russian Orthodox Christian. My church for example, never taught people to be homophobic. It taught to treat people with kindness and to be selfless and giving, especially to those close to you. Yet I frequently hear all this hate from people in Southern US, for example, against gays. Would you say all Christians are therefore homophobic because of a few bad people? Would you say that is what God wants, for people to hate someone for their differences?

 

Christians have done a lot of bad things too. Like the Crusades. Each religion has its own fanatic psychopaths who do terrible things "in the name of Allah/God etc" or "in the name of Islam/Christianity etc". I have read the Bible and some parts of the Qu'ran. I don't claim to be an expert in Islam but there are things in both religious texts that are bad and don't really apply to our world anymore. I read the Qu'ran a while ago so I don't remember the exact wording but I believe there was something about showing violence to Jews and Christians. Most humane people with morals know that killing people isn't ok in this day and age.

 

Radicalism, IMO, arises from lack of laws and education. If you notice, most radicals are from the Middle East. I've studied that part of the world extensively, and can say that there is a direct correlation between education, poverty and radicalism. The Middle East has some of the most poorest countries in the world. Hell, the correlation between radicalism and poverty is evident throughout Europe's history too- I mean, look at the French Revolution.

 

People who turn to radicalism don't know any better. They think extreme measures are the only thing that will save them. Many educated Muslims don't agree with that outlook, at least, from my personal experience.

[Ronni_W]

That is where radical Islam thrives. "Think like we think or we KILL you..."

CaliGuy,

I am sorry for your obviously deep fear of "the other" (whatever and whomever you perceive "the other" to be, exactly).

 

It cannot be denied that, today, it is ISIS that is putting up its videos...but to what end? To put MORE FEAR into exactly the minds that would fear it most. That is how the sinister and dark forces work...also through fear-mongering.

 

When ANY mind buys into what they're selling, THAT is what makes individuals and humanity as a whole, weak. We CANNOT fight ignorance with fear and hatred.

We HAVE to, by God's Will and Christ Consciousness, find some Love EVEN in the effects and conditions where no Love or Godliness is visibly or immediately apparent.

 

THAT was Jesus the Christ's message. AND Mohammed's. AND Gautama Buddha's. And ALL other TRUE Messengers and Prophets.

 

PLEASE do not let ISIS or any other insane and fanatical/radical group carry you away from Jesus the Christ or your own Christ Consciousness. PLEASE!

Edited October 22, 2014 by Ronni_W

[umirano]

That is an interesting view, I've came across some Muslims who share it with you (though I don't know how they arrived at it). Personally for me, I find the Quran stress so much on good deed, that it seems like it worth everything. Since we also believe what we do in this world will be considered and recompense in the next world, I can say this life is purposeful. So nihilism can never be my concept or be practiced in my life. What do you think?

I guess you cherry pick from the quran the parts you like and you leave out the things that seem too cruel or heartless or just absurd to you - just like many christians discard most of the bible in favor of the few no-brainers that are in there (like don't lie, don't kill, don't steal). I find it hilarious how believers think we know not to steal or kill only from the bible. Little kids get upset when grand daddies kill a duck on the farm for the family dinner. They know killing isn't good. Books clearly do not magically insert moral values into people. Otherwise we wouldn't have a single christian in prison. Yet among prisoners religiosity is rampant, in excess of what the average population demonstrates. We also wouldn't have child-****ing priests in large numbers.

 

Religion is intellectually void. The explanations given for how the world came into existence are crazy stories, like much Hollywood movies and they're in conflict what actual observation of the nature around us tells us. The problem of evil is not answered. And most of all: religion fails on Ockham's razor. Why should I have a belief in a crazy story when there are perfectly sensible, testable and realistic explanations for things or events. A belief is a relief for the mind, but it has no bearing on our reality whatsoever. And too many people fail to make that distinction. Religion does not describe the world. It is a text-/conversation-based drug for the mind.

 

The Quran compel us to believe in god by asking us to think, to question, to investigate, to reason, etc. How could we believe in anything without doing so?

Ok, how much investigation have you done on the claim that one being created everything? Have you investigated how much this is in conflict what our observation of the universe shows us? Have you investigated how many winged horses there are? That's a being that the quran claims exists. How believable does it seem to you that there's an all-powerful, all-loving god if given the amount of suffering that is in our world?

 

Those who blindly follow are ridiculed upon, whether they are Muslim or not. Sounds like it almost consider them as having a lower thinking capacity.

If you make a joke with a friend and tell him you found a huge diamond in your back yard and he eagerly follows you through the house to see it you most likely will laugh at him for being so naive.

 

People who blindly believe the most absurd things are often ridiculed. I don't see a problem with that. Sometimes ridicule is the only way to wake somebody up to his lack of critical thinking.

[A.Moscote]

Hey that is a good reply umirano, thank you.

I guess you cherry pick from the quran the parts you like and you leave out the things that seem too cruel or heartless or just absurd to you

Yes, I did cherry pick it. Specifically, I picked points from the Quran that I can use to deny some that regard Islam as nihilistic.

Don't you think it is quite a reasonable counter to your claim about religion and nihilism? Quran preach good deeds and patience (yes, among others like jihad!), and those values Imo are not in congruent with nihilism.

 

The issues of cruelty, heartless, or absurdity are not in the context of my reply, though they are worth discussed/questioned.

 

...hilarious how believers think we know not to steal or kill only from the bible.

Books clearly do not magically insert moral values into people.

Again, not my view too, and if I met people who claims so, I wouldn't mind using your arguments. I believe human is innately equipped with moral and rational, or at least with the natural ability to develop them. And I don't think there are verses to suggest the opposite i.e. human wouldn't know/have moral without revelations.

 

Quran remind and mention a lot about morality, and many times when talking about that, it would also compel us to use our head, to reason, to give a thought on it, to ponder about it, etc. So I think from that, it is implied that people really can be aware and be conscious about moral on their own. Indeed Quran described itself as a reminder, because there are among us, its believers, not mindful enough about moral.

 

The problem of evil is not answered.

How believable does it seem to you that there's an all-powerful, all-loving god if given the amount of suffering that is in our world?

This is a very interesting issue, and indeed very relevant too. I know there are some tendency to blame god, or any higher power for that matter, when we are confronted with evil or suffering, but isn't some of it born out of our own actions, that we as a human has the free will to do anything? A culminations of all our actions bring forth the suffering that we have?

 

In Islam, suffering is seems as a kind of trial, for those inflicted by it, and for those unaffected by it. It is a call for Muslim to struggle to prevent evil, and to reach out to those who suffer.

 

On the other hand, just in case you think there is god, what do you think he should do about evil and suffering?

 

This guy have interesting ideas and interpretations about Islam attitude towards evil and suffering. I like it very much (yeah2.. of course), please give it a try, it is not a bashing-others-lecture. (

,

)

[umirano]

Hey that is a good reply umirano, thank you.

You're very welcome. I have to say though you seem to be a believer it's very easy to talk to you because you do not stop the conversation by burying me in quran quotes, nor do you expect me to believe in your inner and untestable experiences (with god). In addition to that you actually read and understand my arguments. So, the pleasure is mine too.

 

Yes, I did cherry pick it. Specifically, I picked points from the Quran that I can use to deny some that regard Islam as nihilistic.

I understand you want nihilism out of your religion. Others want other things out of their religion, that's why religious texts are sliced and diced by all factions to fit their needs. Another thing is that I'm obviously using dialectics to make my point about nihilism. Of course you'll find parts that contradict the nihilism claim. I'm saying though that the core idea, that a creator made the universe merely to test his creation (us) and destroy us and the world we live in as he sees fit, is in no way less nihilistic than, say the supposed atheist's view that there's no "higher" purpose to our existence.

 

Don't you think it is quite a reasonable counter to your claim about religion and nihilism?

I don't know whether it's reasonable, because dialectics (a fancy word for cherry picking and reinterpreting text) can only take you so far. Personally I'd say if a text is supposed to be god's perfect word then there can't be anything left out changed or added. But it doesn't matter to me so much as I think religious texts were created by men to control men. And IMO the authors knew their business as it's working quite well for the intended purpose. Also the fallacies that are present in all those texts are similar and appeal in the same way to humans.

 

I can see why a power hungry emperor would come up with such texts to unite his unruly people behind him. Probably in islam as well, but certainly in christianity theology was heavily used by men of power to justify why they had certain rights and certain "duties" over everybody else. In europe it took us about 1800 years to shake of the yoke of religion to arrive to a somewhat more human society. Several million people died in the process and today's most powerful, culturally and in technology leading society (the USA) was founded as a result of this struggle.

 

The societies that pushed religion back, removed it from the public square and made it a (more or less) private issue are - and have been - doing extremely well in any metric used in public health, economy or sociology when it comes to measuring the progress, safety and liberty of people.

 

Again, not my view too, and if I met people who claims so, I wouldn't mind using your arguments. I believe human is innately equipped with moral and rational, or at least with the natural ability to develop them.

Thank you. You are the first believer and muslim admitting that who I know on a somewhat personal level. You wouldn't believe how often this is disputed or roundly rejected by believers (most believers I know are christians).

 

This is a very interesting issue, and indeed very relevant too. I know there are some tendency to blame god, or any higher power for that matter, when we are confronted with evil or suffering, but isn't some of it born out of our own actions, that we as a human has the free will to do anything? A culminations of all our actions bring forth the suffering that we have?

Well, I don't really believe there's a god, so the problem of evil doesn't bother me on the inside. But I do think that if god exists he must be evil, or at least negligent OR simply not powerful enough to stop the suffering. There was a thread a while back, that got me banned because I couldn't deal with the stubborness and ignorance oozing from replies to our challenges to religion. If I find the time I'll unearth the thread and send you the link.

 

In that thread I argued over several posts that a lot, if not most suffering cannot be "explained" away by the free will argument. A child of a co-worker developed leukemia at the age of 8. She didn't do anything bad. No one (human) "gave" her the cancer. Her parents didn't expose her to radiation. Suffering just is part of our world. Statistically such and such percentage of 8-yo females will get this type of leukemia because of the error probabilities in genetic processes in blood cells. I don't need to construct morally and logically questionable theological framework to explain why 8-yo innocent girls get leukemia. That doesn't mean I can't understand how much she and her parents suffer. It doesn't mean I want the world to be this way. It doesn't mean I can't appreciate the mysteries of life. Religion IMO does nothing to help in a situation like that. It just adds to the confusion and it adds fear. That is wrong. It's wrong on a technical level, because cancer research is not driven by debating how and how often to pray. And it's wrong on a care-taking level to this kid and her parents. They need realistic, compassionate efforts and information related to the actual problem at hand. They don't need questions like "were we bad people who made bad choices now god gives us what we deserve?".

 

On the other hand, just in case you think there is god, what do you think he should do about evil and suffering?

He should stop it immediately if he wants me to believe he's all powerful, all knowing and all loving at the same time. Given the state of the world those three properties cannot be present in him at the same time. If I had those three properties I'd do it immediately.

 

This guy have interesting ideas and interpretations about Islam attitude towards evil and suffering. I like it very much (yeah2.. of course), please give it a try, it is not a bashing-others-lecture. (

,

)

 

Thank you. I'll take a look at it later. Thanks again for the civil and mindful conversation that you're having with me.

[Arieswoman]

xxoo,

 

It wasn't until I spoke to some people from the Muslim faith that I realized how confusing the trinity/Father/son/holy ghost thing is. I found myself trying to explain that Christians believe Jesus IS God, that they are the same being, also father and son, also one sent the other to Earth, but no, the Christian faith does not worship 2 gods (Jesus and God) because they are the same being...

 

This is the fundamental difference between Christianity and Judaism/Islam.

 

Christians worship a tripartite god, whereas the other two religions are monodeistic. Jews and Moslems regard Christians as blasphemers because of their belief in The Trinity.

 

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

 

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

 

HTH

 

AW

[Arieswoman]

Rose Madder,

I would, respectfully, take issue with this -

 

Basically Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all believe in the same "God", the difference is their interpretation of the texts relating to that God and when they believe God has/will/in what form, return to Earth.

 

See;-

 

Do Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

[Arieswoman]

umirano #36

 

Matthew 11:23 "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day."

 

“Capernaum … exalted … brought down”: Capernaum, chosen by Jesus to be His headquarters,faced an even greater condemnation. Curiously, there is no record that the people of that city ever mocked or ridiculed Jesus, ran Him out of town, or threatened His life. Yet the sin of that city – indifference to Christ – was worse than Sodom’s gross wickedness (10:15).

[CaliGuy]

I think that you should thoroughly explore that which you are dismissing before writing everyone off. Why not talk to some actual Muslims and see?

 

(clipped)

 

I hope you’ll find more truth out in the real world, than what you have seemingly found on Fox news.

 

I have my friend. What I have found is that most Islamist seem to believe their religion came before Christianity (it didn't) and that muhmmad knew Abraham, David, Jesus, etc (he did not). I'm still scratching my head over a religion (Islam) that came 600 years AFTER Christianity and takes text from both the Old and New Testament to be valid in any form. Then all one needs to do is read the Qu'ran and figure out where muhammad was going with his barbaric ways and you can see all he did was have the OT and NT read to him and he twisted it in a way that fit his desire to conquer.

 

Nothing more. It's not a valid religion. It's a twisted version of Judaism and Christianity.

 

Errr...OP, I thought as an intellectual person you are more curious, open minded and want to know about other religion rather than just bashing with your illiterate knowledge. Unfortunately, it seems there are not many Muslims on this site to explain and clarify their prospective on Islam.

 

Since you claim to read Quran, then I am not sure how miss the part when Allah (God) says if you kill an innocent person (including non-believer) it is as you killed the whole humanity and vice-versa. Please tell me which other religion preaches this clearly?

 

You mean the part where he says "Kill all the non-believers"? What, that part? Or the second half of the Qu'ran which is basically about destroying all non believers, beating your wives, cutting off body parts, etc?

 

All religions has a violence side including Buddhism. If you want to quote all the violent quotes from other religions then you will find the most in Mahabharata, Hinduism. No disrespectful in any sense to the mentioned religions. So, lets not play blame game and paint whole religion with a single brush.

 

If you ask me religion does not bring peace nor violence it depends on what you bring to it. Cheers.

 

Show me any part of the New Testament that promotes violence, death or anything other than forgiveness! NO other religion does (that I am aware of) but Christianity. It's people who follow the Old Testament, before our Savior arrived, that was embattled in taking over the land that God appointed to the Jews. God knew His people were never going to be forgiven on their own merits, so he sent our Savior.

 

Now it is our choice to believe in Christ or not, or follow some other religion. As for me and my house, we'll follow the Lord....

 

CaliGuy,

I am sorry for your obviously deep fear of "the other" (whatever and whomever you perceive "the other" to be, exactly).

 

It cannot be denied that, today, it is ISIS that is putting up its videos...but to what end? To put MORE FEAR into exactly the minds that would fear it most. That is how the sinister and dark forces work...also through fear-mongering.

 

When ANY mind buys into what they're selling, THAT is what makes individuals and humanity as a whole, weak. We CANNOT fight ignorance with fear and hatred.

We HAVE to, by God's Will and Christ Consciousness, find some Love EVEN in the effects and conditions where no Love or Godliness is visibly or immediately apparent.

 

THAT was Jesus the Christ's message. AND Mohammed's. AND Gautama Buddha's. And ALL other TRUE Messengers and Prophets.

 

PLEASE do not let ISIS or any other insane and fanatical/radical group carry you away from Jesus the Christ or your own Christ Consciousness. PLEASE!

 

Jesus was far different than muhammad. Jesus taught tolerance and forgiveness. He came to provide the attonement man can never supply. muhammad (I refuse to capitalize his name) existed to create his own religion, using text he took from the OT and NT to fit his own war-mongering fetish (and his child molesting ways). To force people to think like he thinks or just kill them. He didn't like what the NT taught (tolerance, love, forgiveness) -- so he branded his own religion.

 

I cannot imagine anyone reading the Qu'ran and believing a single bit of text. However, this is good reading:

 

Welcome to Islam-Watch

 

Rose Madder,

I would, respectfully, take issue with this -

 

See;-

 

Do Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the same God? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

Amen, lady. Amen! The only two religions that follow the same God are Judaism and Christianity, the main difference being the Jews are still waiting for their "savior" whereas God already provided Him....

 

Islam's connection to God is through what the Qu'ran stole from the OT and NT doctrine, twisted to fit muhammads crazy, insane beliefs on life. He was never a follower of God. He was, in effect, his "own" god....

Edited October 26, 2014 by CaliGuy

[Clair93]

The question is, where are your morals derived from? What YOU personally feel is right and ethical? That you have some innate knowledge of good and bad that is far greater than God's word on what is both good and acceptable? I have yet to meet an atheist who can properly discern between good and bad when their own moral compass is out of whack.

 

I don't know. But I have them.

 

Let me try. The roots of secular morality is very clear and simple. Most of our modern ethics is derived from Ethical Naturalism, not Theological Voluntarism. This is how atheists like us get our morals from (and believers too, since they need some extra-biblical/Quranic framework of morality to base their cherry-picking from):

 

Assumptions:

Life is generally preferable to death.

Health is generally preferable to sickness.

Pleasure is generally preferable to suffering.

comfort is generally preferable to discomfort.

In other words: morality is a framework to maximize the well-beings of current and future humans (and animals).

 

Now:

Actions have consequences.

We can compare the effects of the consequences of different actions on health, pleasure, and comfort of each other.

We can see if an action (like beating someone) has negative effect on their well-being, we can also see if an action (like helping the poor) have positive effects on their well-being.

No need to an invisible man in the sky to tell us this.

Our ideas about good and bad are based on reason and science, rather than an old book. We easily change our ideas if better reason or evidence is presented. Religious morality does not and can not, since it doesn't value reason and evidence on ethical discussions, it values obedience.

 

You see, we study, we observe, we discuss, we decide. That's why secular morality is superior to religious morality.

 

For example, since we value reason and science, we believe burning fossil fuels at current rates is immoral since it seriously endangers the well-being of future humans and animals. You can't see this in religious morality.

[KatZee]

That is an interesting view, I've came across some Muslims who share it with you (though I don't know how they arrived at it). Personally for me, I find the Quran stress so much on good deed, that it seems like it worth everything... So nihilism can never be my concept or be practiced in my life. What do you think?

 

You appear to be the only actual Muslim on this thread, so I will direct this post at you.

 

You say that the Qu'ran stresses so much on good deeds. But what about the plethora of hate, war mongering, women's oppression, rape, etc etc etc that is written?

 

I just cannot wrap my head around being loyal to an ideology that practices so much barbarism even if I myself decided to "cherry-pick" through it and not participate in the blatant acts of evil that so many MILLIONS do participate in. I personally, would just not even want to associate myself with such a thing.

 

I do not post these links as a form of "racism" or "Islamophobia" but what do you personally think about those who have escaped Islam? These are there testimonies.

 

 

 

And for anyone who has roughly two hours of their lives to spare, there is this one:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3WVE8lI9c&list=WL&index=7

 

I think this is an interesting thing to think about. Muslims who escape from areas that are overrun by radical Islam come to the United States. The woman in the first video has converted to Christianity.

 

There are another group of people who immigrate from these war zones and remain Muslim and then bring their radical ideas to our countries, all the while, proclaiming "peace."

 

This leads me to "Taqiyya." Quoted word for word from online sources:

 

"'Taqiyya' which is a provision in Islam to lie under 3 conditions including advancing the cause of Allah and to deceive your enemies. So, it is very hard to trust Muslims because you don't know if they are saying what they really believe or they are lying to the Westerners because they are in a weaker stage of Jihad."

 

"Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to 'smooth over differences.' There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them."

 

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.

 

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

 

Leaders of Islam who currently reside in Western countries- UK, USA WANT to turn those countries from democracies to complete Shari'a law. FACT. Islam sees Democracy as being weak and bad for the people as a whole.

 

40-75% of all Muslims want Shari'a law to govern non-muslims as well. What other religion on this planet behaves this way? Complete totalitarian rule? What other religion on this planet says, "You CONFORM. YOU CONVERT. OR YOU DIE." There is no other alternative. To renounce Islam, you have three months to go back, or you are tried. What other religion on this planet acts this way?

 

According to Shari'a law:

 

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).

• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.

• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.

• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.

• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.

• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.

• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.

• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.

• Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).

• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.

• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.

• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.

• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.

• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).

• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.

• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.

• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).

• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.

• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.

• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

 

SHARIA LAW - Islamic Sharia Law Explained

 

And the list goes on and on. If you watched the two-hour video it shows how the birth rate of Western countries is not high enough to sustain our culture. Pretty much by 2050, Muslims will out-number every other religion and governments will turn into Islamic nations.

 

Can anyone even fathom living under Shari'a law? It is our right, as Americans, as British people, to live under Democratic rule. It is our RIGHT to be free.

 

Muslims have a RIGHT to come to our Democratic countries and cry, "Racism!" "Islamaphobia!" and to push their ideology onto all of us. What would happen if we as Jews, Christians, Catholics, Hindu's, Buddhists, went to Muslim zones and tried the same thing? We would be tried, and KILLED.

 

Their way, or highway. This is how I view radical Islam. Radical Islam is on the rise, and "moderate" and "peaceful" Muslims don't renounce, or condemn them. Why? Fear.

[fortyninethousand322]

If one is worried about a hypothetical Caliphate. One could look at history when there were actual Caliphates and see how they ruled.

 

It took roughly 500-600 years for Egypt and Syria to become majority Muslim, so this idea that Islam spread by people coming in on horseback with machetes telling people to convert or die, seems a little incorrect.

 

Not to say that Caliphates are great, but they weren't the Mongols either...

[umirano]

"You CONFORM. YOU CONVERT. OR YOU DIE."

 

This is why in my opinion islam, and any other somewhat organized religion should be pursued as an offence against international, UN-guaranteed, basic human rights on a global scale. Religions propose and defend the idea of a celestial dictatorship. Religion is the origin of totalitarianism. Religion is fundamentally anti humanitarian, anti social. Religion is the end and biggest threat to our all well being, freedom and safety.

 

Bringing children into religion should be punishable like child pornography or any other serious violation of the child's mental and physical safety. Religious threats, in old books, or in current statements of representatives of religions should be pursued like other utterances of violent ideologies are pursued and they should be subject to law enforcement action.

[Dontfindme]

This is why in my opinion islam, and any other somewhat organized religion should be pursued as an offence against international, UN-guaranteed, basic human rights on a global scale. Religions propose and defend the idea of a celestial dictatorship. Religion is the origin of totalitarianism. Religion is fundamentally anti humanitarian, anti social. Religion is the end and biggest threat to our all well being, freedom and safety.

 

Bringing children into religion should be punishable like child pornography or any other serious violation of the child's mental and physical safety. Religious threats, in old books, or in current statements of representatives of religions should be pursued like other utterances of violent ideologies are pursued and they should be subject to law enforcement action.

 

That's a bit extreme. What you're suggesting is no different than religious extremists shoving religion down people's throats.

[A.Moscote]

Hi KatZee, thanks for posting, yeah seems like I'm the only one exactly conformed to the thread title here. Benggo!

 

You say that the Qu'ran stresses so much on good deeds. But what about the plethora of hate, war mongering, women's oppression, rape, etc etc etc that is written?

I've admitted before, there are several verses that are controversial but still I don't think it is outright that vile. So why don't you bring forth a couple of those verses, not a plethora of it please, perhaps I could try to explain them. Especially the one supposedly endorsing women's oppression or rape.

 

Anyway since you have mentioned verse 5:32 in your post above, so we'll just start with that.

 

Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

I don't want to lie by omission, so we'll take it a bit further than those apologists' approach. It is from the fifth chapter, where that particular verse (the 32rd) forms a part of a whole passage from verse number 27 to 34. The first part of that passage (27-31) narrates about a murder between Adam's two sons. It kind of a prelude towards the next part of that passage (32-34) which touches on the legal aspect of it.

 

So here it is; verse 32: "Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors."

 

The phrase "whoever kills a soul" can now be associated based on the previous part (27-31) with the killing of innocent or civilian, or killing unjustly, or murder due to rage, jealousy etc. Doing so is considered so serious as though killing the whole other human.

 

There are however exceptions from that condemnation, where killing is considered as lawful punishment for two instances. The first, represented by the phrase "for a soul", is very particular as a punishment for homicide. Then the second, as a punishment for corruption/mischief, which is more open to interpretation. Some of the rational ones for me are like the drug cartels, terrorists, genocide, or deliberate mass environmental disaster.

 

Sadly though, yes, many Muslim authorities consider leaving Islam per se, without considering the circumstances, as so corrupting. Guess they've never understand the concept of human right, and perhaps are too obsessed with punishing, too consumed with zeal, and too shaken with insecurity.

 

Which bring us to verse 33: "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,"

 

Exiled from the land is what if not parallel with our modern prison system? So it turned out the punishment is more flexible, not just as barbaric it seems now. Then notice the phrase "who wage war". Anyone directly waging military war against Islam? I don't see any here, I've never seen anyone irl either, so I've never agree with the killing threats (from our side) or the killing accusations (towards Islam).

 

Concluded in verse 34: "Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

 

That's it, not that complicated, just a sensible reading of seven verses. I hope this is a plausible if not satisfactory reply KatZee. Just in case you are interested, there are plenty of explanation on this topic in the internet. Who knows, perhaps you would like to seek explanation from either side, the critics and the defending (such as this).

 

The rest of your post are interesting and important as well, but too much to reply now. I need a bit more reading too.

[ComingInHot]

I think at the end of the day, I'm not only willing to bet my life and soul on my Christian Faith but I'm willing to die for it too.

 

To me that separates the hypocrites from the believers of any faith including the Muslim faith which I do believe is a 'spin off' of the Bible but that's me.

 

The Zealots and extremists of either faith that twist it to bludgeon another faith or race is blasphemy to both God and the Muslim Allah (who is God to me just want to make that clear).

I live in close proximity to a huge population of Muslims and know personally a couple. They both confirm it's a spin off religion but that last book is what counts.

 

So I ask them... God just changed his mind then?

They hate it when I say that because they HAVE to say Allah is UNCHANGING which negates their entire teaching pretty much.

[A.Moscote]

So I ask them... God just changed his mind then?

Change his mind about what CiH?

[ffw]

I have my friend. What I have found is that most Islamist seem to believe their religion came before Christianity (it didn't) and that muhmmad knew Abraham, David, Jesus, etc (he did not). I'm still scratching my head over a religion (Islam) that came 600 years AFTER Christianity and takes text from both the Old and New Testament to be valid in any form. Then all one needs to do is read the Qu'ran and figure out where muhammad was going with his barbaric ways and you can see all he did was have the OT and NT read to him and he twisted it in a way that fit his desire to conquer.

 

Nothing more. It's not a valid religion. It's a twisted version of Judaism and Christianity

 

Islam never claimed be the original religion. Maybe your friend couldn't explain clearly. The theory behind the whole concept is God has sent prophets to humanity at different times and places to communicate his message. The prophets were human beings who taught people around them about faith in One Almighty God and how to talk on path of righteousness. For a whole list of prophets sent by God according to Islam refer Prophets in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. As you can see in the list the name of Jesus is also mentioned. In fact, no Muslim is a Muslim if he/she doesn't believe/follow in Jesus. During the course of time, people followed one messenger/prophet, whomever they encountered during their time, and created their own religion.

 

 

So, to tell Islam before Christianity is both true and false. If one see them as separate bodies and give them religious names then its false since Jesus came before Mohammad. However, if you see it as the concept explained in the above paragraph and throw the religion names out of the window then its true since its just one concept. Hope this will give you a general idea.

 

 

You mean the part where he says "Kill all the non-believers"? What, that part? Or the second half of the Qu'ran which is basically about destroying all non believers, beating your wives, cutting off body parts, etc?

 

 

 

This paragraph and the ones following just show your true and golden ignorance of Quran. As I said before, if you want to learn about a subject then you have to come with an open mind approach rather than proclaiming twisted sentences with your arrogance, close mind and lack of knowledge. Cheers.

[umirano]

That's a bit extreme. What you're suggesting is no different than religious extremists shoving religion down people's throats.

 

Not at all. Religions demand the rest of the population to submit to their particular "ethical" views. Religions demand laws to mirror their ideas of what's right and what's wrong.

 

I suggest if you have a particular religious rule that you want to obey, you should do so for yourself, when you're an adult within your own four walls. I do not think you should have a free pass to coerce others into your worldview, be it by psychological, political or physical pressure.

 

Unfortunately a lot of children are sucked into the vortex from a very young age, and need years of therapy to overcome the damage done to their minds. The guilt some people are feeling for very normal, human experiences they made, just bc their religious parents thought they had to save them from "hell" is heart breaking. I have seen families torn apart over and because of the tribalism that religion encourages.

 

Religion damages society. It undermines our ability to understand the world and see it for what it is. Religion encourages to live in fantasies that have no bearing on our reality. It ultimately prevents people from making choices that benefit themselves and their loved ones here and now. Religion encourages not taking responsibility for what we do. Religion is a drug for the mind and it should be treated as such.