Over 6 months on ...how we look now

[TrustedthenBusted]

Good luck. 6 months is not a lot of time. I was still uncovering bullcrap a year and a half into it. But to each his own. If it works for you, great.

[Try]

Yep... I'd suggest that was probably part of it but also what has come out over time is that really at the time she just didn't think it was such a big deal as it was. Her idea's and thinking wasn't geared towards considering her hook ups anything at all to do with us as a couple. To her it was just fun, nothing serious at all and nothing that hurt our marriage.

She tells you that she thought that cheating on you with multiple other men for most of your marriage "was just fun, nothing serious at all and nothing that hurt our marriage" and you believe her enough to come here to tell us that everything is now great? That not only did she cheat on you but her friends all knew and were in on it, and you believe that in a few months after you caught her everything is OK? As long as you are willing to drink the cheaters Kool-Aide that your wife is giving you, you can pretend for a little while that everything is back to normal, while ignoring the fact that normal for you wife for most of you marriage is to cheat on you. You are rug sweeping, and rug sweeping never works long term. Now that she has established that you will quickly forgive her affairs and move on, she will cheat again, but take better care not to get caught.

[Try]

If anyone can explain how it would actually work in reality rather then just meaningless theory I'd be interested to know how.

Open marriages work like what you and your wife now have going where you both accept the premise that at the end of the day cheating is not a big deal. She openly tells you that her cheating "was just fun, nothing serious at all and nothing that hurt our marriage", and you understand her point of view, forgive her, and move on as if nothing has happened, pretending that she will never cheat again. Although by saying this she just admitted to you that she does not think that monogamy is a requirement in marriage, apparently as long as she is better at keeping her cheating discrete, you are a willing to be a partner in such a marriage. You say that you do not understand how open marriages work, yet you are in a don't ask don't tell open marriage now.

[gettingstronger]

YIKES DAS- you sure are taking a beating for feeling good 6 months post dday- I can tell from your posts that you are smart and know you have a bumpy road ahead-celebrate feeling good today and for pitys sake people, give him a bit of time to shine-

[DasPope]

YIKES DAS- you sure are taking a beating for feeling good 6 months post dday- I can tell from your posts that you are smart and know you have a bumpy road ahead-celebrate feeling good today and for pitys sake people, give him a bit of time to shine-

 

Oh I don't worry too much about it... there are a lot of very burnt (by their own prior situations no doubt) people on here pushing their own agendas. Often they repeat themselves reciting endless drivel about theories already debunked and irrelevant to my situation. They don't know us, don't really read my posts correctly (or maybe don't understand them if they do or more likely totally ignore relevant information that doesn't suit "their" agenda) Of course these people they don't figure in my thinking much.

But there are a few really knowledgeable and thoughtful people on here (even amongst the ones who think I've handled this incorrectly ...some have offered some really good advice) and I guess I was just a update for them. By far the best advice I ever had from anyone about my situation (and I forget who gave it now) came from here at the very beginning.That advice was essentialy "never let her know how much you know but make it seem as if you know everything". It worked perfectly for me and avoided me having to troll through possibly months of truth seeking and trickle truth and get straight to the heart of the matter immediately.

 

But your right the main thing now is that it does feel pretty good to have come through a pretty nasty storm and it keep things not just intact but still growing happily together.

[TrustedthenBusted]

Back when I was considering a revenge affair, I spoke with three different women who were in open marriages. In every case, the woman admitted that even though her husband "allowed" it, there was always some jealousy, and things that she had to hide from her husband. Somtimes it was that she had slept with someone of another race, or someone with huge junk, or someone he knew or whatever. The other problem was that while both spouses were on dating websites, her inbox was literally blowing up with offers, while his generally remained empty.

 

On top of that are the social perceptions.

 

Married woman up for fun = Highly marketable commodity and enlightened human being.

 

Married man looking for fun = douchebag.

[happyman64]

I just wanted to say Das that I am glad you stuck it out.

 

That both of you stuck it out.

 

To her it was just fun, nothing serious at all and nothing that hurt our marriage.

 

Do you think that your wife was immature when it came to her ONS's?

 

She knew they were wrong. SHe did not want your kids to find about her cheating. She did not care that her girlfriends knew she was cheating. Do you think she thought of herself as a promiscuous 28yo single woman when you were not home? Like living a double life?

 

My last question.

 

Did you ever ask your wife how she would react if you were having ONS while you were away? How would she feel?

 

I find it interesting that she shot down an Open Marriage though I am glad she did.

 

Was your wife ever sexualy abused at anytime?

 

Again I am glad you stuck it out.

 

HM

[drifter777]

I just wanted to say Das that I am glad you stuck it out.

 

That both of you stuck it out.

 

 

 

Do you think that your wife was immature when it came to her ONS's?

 

She knew they were wrong. SHe did not want your kids to find about her cheating. She did not care that her girlfriends knew she was cheating. Do you think she thought of herself as a promiscuous 28yo single woman when you were not home? Like living a double life?

 

My last question.

 

Did you ever ask your wife how she would react if you were having ONS while you were away? How would she feel?

 

I find it interesting that she shot down an Open Marriage though I am glad she did.

 

Was your wife ever sexualy abused at anytime?

Again I am glad you stuck it out.

 

HM

I'm curious as to why you care one way or another whether they stayed together or not.

[oldshirt]

Back when I was considering a revenge affair, I spoke with three different women who were in open marriages. In every case, the woman admitted that even though her husband "allowed" it, there was always some jealousy, and things that she had to hide from her husband. Somtimes it was that she had slept with someone of another race, or someone with huge junk, or someone he knew or whatever. The other problem was that while both spouses were on dating websites, her inbox was literally blowing up with offers, while his generally remained empty.

 

On top of that are the social perceptions.

 

Married woman up for fun = Highly marketable commodity and enlightened human being.

 

Married man looking for fun = douchebag.

 

I agree with what you are saying.

 

When I discussed open marriage earlier in the thread I was not in anyway implying it would be some joyous, healthy, fun lifestyle that would lead to carefree adventure and fulfillment.

 

I was saying it may be the only way he can keep her around and keep her from cheating without his consent whenever his back is turned.

 

She was already in an open marriage, she just didn't bother to check with him about it.

 

My point is she is going to pick up dudes with or without his consent. He can either look the other way and live with it. Or he can set some boundaries than he can live with and cross his fingers she can come close to abiding with them.

 

He's not gonna like the result either way.

[merrmeade]

I've read both threads in one sitting and would like to address, first, the overall tone of the posts and then address the BS.

 

First, I was shocked at how mean-spirited the posts have been. Sure, OP was a little stiff, kind of naively formal and way too trusting. That hardly justified the name-calling, sarcasm, ridicule and badgering he got—NOT persuasive or compelling ways to win arguments. And when OP complained - justifiably - he was accused of being ungrateful. More bizarre was the range of rigid positions, reconcilers being just as vitriolic as the divorce-only cynics. Weird and embarrassing. Mostly sad for the thread author.

 

But then you came back, announcing that you'd reconciled and WW has seen the error of her ways. Guess you noticed the skepticism this elicited along with some strange - and unwarranted - viciousness. The thing is BS's don't usually recover or reconciliations happen that fast. It has people worried about you.

 

The other thing I wanted to address is the sex addition someone mentioned. My H admits to this and had some similarities with your W though different generation. The sixties (and 70s) were famous for similar promiscuity, free love and all that. He blames the prowling he and his buddy used to do for girls and the attitudes. It was a lifestyle and didn't stop when he got married. The first affair was in graduate school, a year after our marriage. (I didn't know until recently.) There were others, different circumstances, but he used the word "flattery" a lot, talked about the rush from sexual flirting and seduction. He's called it an addiction. It's not love; it's not deep. He's aware of every attractive female of any age with visual range. He's only just learning that personal compliments are inappropriate. His adult daughter had to tell him.

 

I have also been clueless and the posters are right who say that your understanding empathy and easy dismissal are giving permission and it will happen again - if not this year then five years down the road or sooner. It's just a way of relating to attractive members of the opposite sex that simply does not go away.

 

I would strongly recommend considering sex addition therapy for your W.

[2sunny]

What has your wife learned about herself since you found out?

 

What caused her to think so little of her commitment to you that she didn't consider your feelings while she cheated?

 

She knows how to compartmentalize - we now know that... But has she learned to have a conscience? What did she learn about those qualities she holds?

 

How many times did she see a counselor?

[DasPope]

What has your wife learned about herself since you found out?

 

What caused her to think so little of her commitment to you that she didn't consider your feelings while she cheated?

 

She knows how to compartmentalize - we now know that... But has she learned to have a conscience? What did she learn about those qualities she holds?

 

How many times did she see a counselor?

 

Well we are still seeing the counselor ( both separately and together) but no longer weekly. It's now once per month.

I don't think she thought little of our commitment at all rather the opposite it meant the world to her but at the time time I just think she really believed that her behaviors had nothing to do with us as a couple and were pretty harmless to us. Which of course broke down completely when I found out.

So she's had to confront her whole value system really and some of that has been harder then she thought but she's managed quite well.

She's grown so much since in that area I feel like she's a different person now. Conscience, responsibility, commitment, expectations and being able to have a more mature measured attitude to our relationship have all been things she's really worked hard on.

She's also worked hard on stopping comparing our relationship to my first marriage which I was unaware was even on her radar but it came out in therapy that she felt a lot of pressure from the presence of my happy marriage to my first wife and mother of my daughters who tragically passed away at a young age some years before we met.

She's really quite ok now .... the occasional bout of hysterics but nothing you wouldn't see in a normal relationship.

[dichotomy]

I might - on a superficial level - consider my wife a "lite" or "limited" version of yours.

 

Her wild time existed for 3-4 years, and was precipitated by the simultaneous end of an abusive sick marriage and the death of her long cheating father. Her wild time was closer to what I consider a poly lifestyle rather than one night stands with strangers...(not that some did not start as one nights with a new guy) but she enjoyed having numerous on going intimate relationships for a period of time. Some lasted 3 months - other carried on 3-4 years while she had other guys at the same time.

 

It was addictive and I think very enjoyable to her to have a network of on going lovers -new and exiting - the worst one - very much a "dead daddy figure" (older and married and a serial womanizer) stayed with her the whole time.

 

The differences were 1) She had 30 years of not being this way and was at her core a monogamist and moral person 2) She did truly wanted traditional marriage and kids 3) I was an ideal catch and amazing man for this, far beyond the others 4) She never sexually cheated on me..but the hidden relationships (EA) was so disrespectful and dishonest and a betrayal on its own.

 

The similarities I think to your wife was that it was VERY hard for her to break the addiction of remaining connected to other men. Her core self knew enough to remain sexually faithful to me - she had a hard time breaking all the chemical brain bonds and habits of this network and life style. I wondered why she never sexually cheated on me - but thats when I figured her core old self was still there and I stayed because of an understanding of that core.

 

It took years and years of work, therapy, and constant spying by me -and high boundaries - to get past this It has been exhausting for me. I believe (although our sex/marriage therapist does not fully agree) that our long struggling up and down sex life is due to her (brain) trying to rewire itself back to a state of monogamous mode. All those partners and poly (ish) life created a high state of hormones and excitement and drove her sexually. When she got cut off completely it was a big withdraw. I think she struggles now with it all being bad (men and sex)

 

It has been a long time now, years and years.... and some things ARE better and resolved. NC with her old male network - has been confirmed for many years... but its been a huge effort. As I have said elsewhere it was like moving a mountain inches at a time. I still see "bits" of her poly leanings and inclinations here and there - and because of this I still keep an eye out from time to time (not constant monitoring like it was)

 

I have also changed in many many ways, things probably I should have done anyway, things that I think are better for me as a man - and for her and the marriage. I am a new man and no matter what better off for it - with one or two exceptions perhaps.

 

Oldshirt brought up many logical and wise points. Please understand what you maybe in for... from me and my "lite version" of your wife. This could be a LONG road, a marathon, are you up for it ? Is it worth it to you?

Edited September 21, 2014 by dichotomy

[DasPope]

I might - on a superficial level - consider my wife a "lite" or "limited" version of yours.

 

 

I don't know .... my wife had no kind of emotional anything really.

 

We are seriously talking about a situation where she cannot tell me even the first names of some of the guys she hooked up with. Not because she won't but because she doesn't remember their name. It really was that casual for her at the time.

[dichotomy]

I don't know .... my wife had no kind of emotional anything really.

 

We are seriously talking about a situation where she cannot tell me even the first names of some of the guys she hooked up with. Not because she won't but because she doesn't remember their name. It really was that casual for her at the time.

 

 

It is not important to debate the emotional vs sexual vs casualness aspect of affairs. Perhaps some of my comparison was invalid.

 

However if for you - the casual nature she sexual affairs - is of some lesser hurt, then say emotional connections, that's just you. Personally I think it all sucks, and hurts, but each man or women decides whats the worst parts of their spouses betrayals and how to react or deal.

 

My point (as was a few others) was that breaking a long cycle of behavior, thinking, needs, in a cheating spouse is not an easy task. I think this not over with your wife by a long shot and if staying is what you wish, be ready for a long effort.

Edited September 21, 2014 by dichotomy

[DasPope]

It is not important to debate the emotional vs sexual vs casualness aspect of affairs.

 

However if for you - the casual nature she sexual affairs - is of some lesser hurt, then say emotional connections, that's just you. Personally I think it all sucks, and hurts, but each man or women decides whats the worst parts or limits for themselves.

 

My point (as was a few others) was that breaking a long cycle of behavior, thinking, needs, in a cheating spouse is not an easy task. I think this not over with your wife by a long shot and if staying is what you wish, be ready for a long effort.

 

If she had of had what I consider a affair either long or short term I would have probably not been able to reconcile. The emotional aspect of it plus the formal planned part of it would have been far worse for me I'd imagine.

As it is it still bad but at least I know that there was never anything ongoing or any intention on her part to try something like that. The type of cheating she did was opportunistic and spontaneous and that points more towards her attitudes not adjusting to the reality of our relationship.

She revealed in counseling that she had physically cheated in every single relationship she has ever been since high school even though she was happy in many of them. But that she had never been caught or confronted about it before now.

I think in many ways the sheer fact that she got caught here alone has shocked her into making some rather swift adjustments to her attitudes.

 

I'm aware we have a long road together but don't all couples on all issues?

 

I'm fairly confident that we are progressing well considering.

 

So far ... So Good

[oldshirt]

Listen to Dichotomy, what he is saying IS very relevant to your situation. Especially the part involving the hard work and surveillance and the slow adaptation to monogamy.

This situation is very much about will the end result be worth all the effort that is going to go into it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If she had of had what I consider a affair either long or short term I would have probably not been able to reconcile.

 

 

What is your deal breaker then? Where is the point of no return for you?

 

 

The emotional aspect of it plus the formal planned part of it would have been far worse for me I'd imagine.

 

 

I'm not going to keep harping on it, but this is why some of us have brought up open marriage. You seem to be ok with her screwing guys as long as there is no emotional component to it. this is what swingers and 'Hot Wives ' and open marraiges etc are made of.

You seem to come from that stock just as much as her.

 

 

As it is it still bad but at least I know that there was never anything ongoing or any intention on her part to try something like that.

 

 

That's the part you are not getting here. It IS ongoing and IS intentional. This is her lifestyle. This is her pattern. This is her character. She may not have an attachment to one specific person, but she has a very strong attachment to the practice of picking up random strangers. Her affair is with the rush and fun and excitement of picking up new people all the time.

 

 

 

 

The type of cheating she did was opportunistic and spontaneous and that points more towards her attitudes not adjusting to the reality of our relationship.

 

 

 

 

No it points to her attitudes and beliefs on sexuality in general. your relationship is there to provide her with a roof over her head, resources and security. She is opportunistic and predatorial in her sexuality and she there for gets that anywere any time she feels the need.

 

 

She is disconnected in the role of sexuality in her marriage with you. She is likely just as detached emotionally from you while she is screwing you as she is when she screws these other guys. It's just more convenient since she doesn't have to leave the house.

She revealed in counseling that she had physically cheated in every single relationship she has ever been since high school even though she was happy in many of them.

 

 

that is because this is who and what she is.

 

 

 

 

But that she had never been caught or confronted about it before now.

 

 

That's because these other guys knew she was a SuzyScrewAround and just wanted her to drain their tank and move along. None of them had any intention of even trying to have a traditional monogamous relationship with her and when she screwed around on them, they knew what kind of person she was and left.

 

 

I think in many ways the sheer fact that she got caught here alone has shocked her into making some rather swift adjustments to her attitudes.

 

 

"swift" changes are rarely lasting changes. This has been a lifelong pattern for her. six months is just a blink of an eye. Even professional prostitutes and porn stars etc can take breaks now and then.

 

I'm aware we have a long road together but don't all couples on all issues?

 

 

In some ways yes but they rarely change their basic programming and when they do it is over a period of years if not decades.

 

I'm fairly confident that we are progressing well considering.

 

 

I will refer back to Dichotomy again. What he described was not as ingrained and habitual as your situation and it is still a hard work in progress after many years.

 

So far ... So Good

 

 

responses above.

[Try]

She revealed in counseling that she had physically cheated in every single relationship she has ever been since high school even though she was happy in many of them. But that she had never been caught or confronted about it before now.

She is a serial cheater that cheats without remorse. She is skilled at covering her tracks when she cheats, and because she is opportunistic (she does not even remember their names) she knows that there is little chance that she will get caught again. She has successfully got you to quickly rug sweep this, such that there will be little long term consequences for her cheating on you. You do know that serial cheaters rarely stop cheating for long, and that the odds are very strong that she will cheat on you again right? Look up the word cuckold.

[2sunny]

I can see she is participating in a way that has satisfied you for the past several months. That's good short term results.

 

I do wonder how she can resist for years and years though. And the fact that it doesn't bother you THAT much since she didn't know them personally means she may have an idea that as long as she keeps it non emotional may allow her that window to do it again years down the road.

 

But hey, you know she's hot and younger and you've been willing to compartmentalize this yourself - so that you can live with it to some degree.

 

It's an agreement (of sorts) that you've made between you two.

 

 

But I do believe based on how you had a non severe reaction to her actions that she's still likely to do it again - it's just that she will wait until the dust settles and she also knows for sure you'll never impose BIG consequences on her.

 

 

You'll never kick her out. She knows that. She's going to behave like a good girl until that urge gets the best of her conscience.

 

 

She has obviously had this pattern and mindset that it's no big deal her whole adult life - I doubt she's likely to change much at her core.

 

 

But she will pretend enough to keep you in the position you're in.

 

 

 

She may love you - but being without that thrill of her random sex is not likely to stop forever. I guess the question becomes - do you love her enough to overlook her bad behavior knowing that she probably can't help it?

[oldshirt]

I can see she is participating in a way that has satisfied you for the past several months. That's good short term results.

 

I do wonder how she can resist for years and years though. And the fact that it doesn't bother you THAT much since she didn't know them personally means she may have an idea that as long as she keeps it non emotional may allow her that window to do it again years down the road.

 

But hey, you know she's hot and younger and you've been willing to compartmentalize this yourself - so that you can live with it to some degree.

 

It's an agreement (of sorts) that you've made between you two.

 

 

But I do believe based on how you had a non severe reaction to her actions that she's still likely to do it again - it's just that she will wait until the dust settles and she also knows for sure you'll never impose BIG consequences on her.

 

 

You'll never kick her out. She knows that. She's going to behave like a good girl until that urge gets the best of her conscience.

 

 

She has obviously had this pattern and mindset that it's no big deal her whole adult life - I doubt she's likely to change much at her core.

 

 

But she will pretend enough to keep you in the position you're in.

 

 

 

She may love you - but being without that thrill of her random sex is not likely to stop forever. I guess the question becomes - do you love her enough to overlook her bad behavior knowing that she probably can't help it?

 

 

 

This is what I've been trying to say but 2Sunny said it much more concise and better.

[DasPope]

This is what I've been trying to say but 2Sunny said it much more concise and better.

 

And much less offensively...

[DasPope]

We have reconciled to a traditional sexually monogamous marriage.

 

Despite what has been suggested by other posters (don't you people actually read and comprehend?) I am not ok with and have given no permission (implicit or explicit) for her to have other sexual partners under any circumstances.

I have stated this plainly many times yet it is ignored by those replying because they seek only to play out their own agendas.

The various speculations as to her actions in the future as well as the conjecture about her state of mind are just not worth my time. Much of what has been written (some of it patently offensive and derogatory) is pure fiction based on nothing but the prejudices of the individual posters replying.

[drifter777]

We have reconciled to a traditional sexually monogamous marriage.

 

Despite what has been suggested by other posters (don't you people actually read and comprehend?) I am not ok with and have given no permission (implicit or explicit) for her to have other sexual partners under any circumstances.

I have stated this plainly many times yet it is ignored by those replying because they seek only to play out their own agendas.

The various speculations as to her actions in the future as well as the conjecture about her state of mind are just not worth my time. Much of what has been written (some of it patently offensive and derogatory) is pure fiction based on nothing but the prejudices of the individual posters replying.

You are so, so wrong. Most posters on your thread want to help you. They care. Your story and the way you tell it elicits strong responses because we have seen how this usually turns out. A serial cheater doesn't change - they just get more careful. Maybe your case will be different, but I doubt it. When it does happen again you won't see "I told you so" posts because we hate being right about these things. Please stay in IC - it will help you work through the betrayal.

[2sunny]

How does your wife explain her feelings about the thought of never having sex with a stranger ever again?

 

Does she say she will miss it or does she state she won't miss it?

[merrmeade]

[/i]

We have reconciled to a traditional sexually monogamous marriage.

 

Despite what has been suggested by other posters (don't you people actually read and comprehend?) I am not ok with and have given no permission (implicit or explicit) for her to have other sexual partners under any circumstances.

I have stated this plainly many times yet it is ignored by those replying because they seek only to play out their own agendas.

The various speculations as to her actions in the future as well as the conjecture about her state of mind are just not worth my time. Much of what has been written (some of it patently offensive and derogatory) is pure fiction based on nothing but the prejudices of the individual posters replying.

You are so, so wrong. Most posters on your thread want to help you. They care. Your story and the way you tell it elicits strong responses because we have seen how this usually turns out. A serial cheater doesn't change - they just get more careful. Maybe your case will be different, but I doubt it. When it does happen again you won't see "I told you so" posts because we hate being right about these things. Please stay in IC - it will help you work through the betrayal.

 

Oh dear, I hope I didn't contribute to this. I thought calling you names like Sugar Daddy was rude, and badgering you into taking a stand was too pushy too soon, okay, maybe even "offensive and derogatory," but it is far more valuable than the "prejudices of the individual posters." Their experience, individually and collectively, observations of patterns repeated many times a month over years on LS and research are not only worth your time but so much more than your 6 months as a self-acknowledged BS and your supposedly reformed wife.

 

No, Drifter is right and so much more tactful than you at this point.

 

The problems are these:

1) the flagrantly promiscuous and repetitive nature of your wife's indiscretions:

"she was never with the same

OM

twice ... a different man each night"

2) the blithe cluelessness she displayed:

"for reasons she cannot understand or explain ... she can't quite understand why she went ahead and did it"

3) your strong wish to forgive her and sweep the whole thing under the rug as quickly as possible and minimize how bad it was:

"simply one of behaving as a single person on occasional nights out."

She's a serial cheater with lots of habits practiced over many years. Maybe she won't go out to bars and maybe it won't be this year or the next, maybe not even for 5 or more years, but it will arise in a new context. It's just the way she relates to good-looking sexy men and she loves the rush and excitement of the hunt and conquest. And even for the young age of 28, as you indicated, she knew it would hurt you; she knew it was wrong.

 

Furthermore, you don't appear to be informing yourself separate from MC and LS. You kind of skipped back in after only 6 months of MC and announced that everybody is healed and perfectly monogamous now, it was all just a big misunderstanding, Little Missy knows her place, is, oh, so sorry and will never do it again. It was ludicrous and everyone knew it but you!

 

I felt bad that they were so hard on you, but when you come back in slinging mud and calling names on top of the delusion that you're all fixed and her character, completely repaired and better than new, well, I say let the peranhas have a field day.

 

This post from Drifter in your previous thread said it clearly and with all the blue blood tact you seem to need:

I think many posters are kind of freaked out by the serial nature of your wife's cheating. Most of us take it as Gospel that trying to reconcile with a serial cheater is a waste of everyone's time because the marriage vow means nothing to these people. They might be addicts or broken in some other way but the bottom line is that you can't fix them and marriage counseling is usually not effective. They need to work on themselves in individual counseling and during that time they will continue to betray you. Nobody on here wants to see anyone go through that and those of us who are urging you to take a very hard line are reacting to the situation as you described it. Yeah, there are some vicious BS's here but most are just sharing their infidelity experience with you.

 

And by the way, your attitude toward the posters is getting a little too snooty and arrogant for my interest, and this is the last time I'll visit your thread. I mean if you think everyone has to write euphemistically and tiptoe around - what to them is - the blaring truth then you don't get the premise of LS at all. This place is about as democratic as it gets, and if you feel like you're slumming then you'd best continue paying your PIs and your therapists for the rest of your life because I'm afraid you've just put a bandaid on a stage 4 melanoma lesion.

Edited September 22, 2014 by merrmeade