Hardest Post ever

[loveboid]

Gosh, aren't we a little rough here? Men need friends and unfortunately are sorely lacking. Women too. Not just shopping, coffee and gossip.

 

Where are we as a society that we cannot share our deepest, truest feelings with others? Is there something wrong with bonding? Bonding with more than one person? No.

 

It would be a sad, sad world where we cannot deeply express ourselves and have to figure things out alone and rely on 'approved' friends and family who we do not share a close bond with, even though they are the traditional support network. I've done that. And it doesn't work. I would rather find someone true to bond with no matter what. Bonding does not require sex and the OP demonstrates that and he obviously got a lot of perspective to improve his life, didn't he?

 

Geez, bonding is human. That's what it's all about.

 

Good luck, OP. You've had a richer human experience on Earth. Good job.

[Sub]

I know people will get caught up in the 1-2 pictures and lame attempts at flirting.

I think people are getting caught up in it because it was a significant part of your initial post. And the fact they were "lame" doesn't change the intent. Flirting's flirting.

 

I also will say it was safe talking/writing to someone 3000 miles away and getting insight into the opposite sex, which I never had.

Better late than never, so if you've become more educated about the opposite sex at this point, it's something to grow on. It may be worthwhile to look a little deeper into why it took a relationship with someone 3000 miles away, this far into adulthood, for you to do so. I'm assuming you've had other female friends, family members, girlfriends, etc. throughout your life.

[Snowflower]

You have it right. My definition of EA is yes a fine line and one not sure I can put properly into words. I certainly crossed a line and knew that, but also the distance and frankly the love for my wife and knowing what we do have meant it was just a friend I could confide in and be as open as I was and frankly did learn from.

 

I may have missed this, but did your wife know you were talking to this lady? 3.5 years is a long time to have a friendship if indeed your wife did not know about it.

 

I am glad that you love your wife enough that it kept you in check from doing something even more inappropriate--or crossing more lines.

Damn right I want a great marriage and most importantly a happy wife who is excited by me not as just her spouse, but also as a man sexually.

 

When you look at your spouse and think of how much you want to be with her and to feel and touch her (and more), and think that feeling is not returned doesn't do much for your confidence and self-esteem.

 

I get this and I learned the hard way about this very thing by my husband's behavior. These days, I don't spend as much time on infidelity as I do on threads where one partner or the other is feeling a mismatch in their sexual relationship with their spouse.

 

Have you talked with your wife about how it makes you feel rejected when she doesn't respond to you sexually? I mean, really talked to her from your point of view? Not by pointing fingers at her or accusing her of not doing enough but explaining solely from your point of view and feelings?

That is why over and over I posted about sex, asked questions and wanted insight without revealing a whole lot about myself (though people had their opinions).

And that is a very healthy way to find answers to your questions. Asking a group of people (LS in this case) is very different than having intimate conversations with a member of the opposite sex about these kind of topics.

 

I also think many here have shared too much that could be construed as an EA with LS. We're now talking about how much time I spent with my "penpal" (yes used on purpose), but also when you think about it, how much time on these sites. I can easily rationalize it away that my spouse buries herself reading books & mysteries and I'm wasting my time on these sites and venting sharing too much.

 

Make any sense?

 

Now don't go rationalizing away your friendship with this lady because we all talk about our problems on LS. It's not the same thing. My H knows I post on LS. He doesn't like it much but he knows. Again, what does your wife know about your participation here and the conversations with this lady?

 

I think we all are in danger of sharing too much about our marital situations-to the point of betrayal. It is a thin line and one that we should be cognizant of at all times.

 

I still think there is a real danger of intimacy when you (general you) share these types of things (marital difficulties) with a friend of the opposite sex.

 

P.S.-I do have a couple of friendships that were started on LS, with women though, not guys. We communicate away from LS and yes, we talk about our marriages and experiences with infidelity.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I think people are getting caught up in it because it was a significant part of your initial post. And the fact they were "lame" doesn't change the intent. Flirting's flirting.

 

 

Better late than never, so if you've become more educated about the opposite sex at this point, it's something to grow on. It may be worthwhile to look a little deeper into why it took a relationship with someone 3000 miles away, this far into adulthood, for you to do so. I'm assuming you've had other female friends, family members, girlfriends, etc. throughout your life.

 

Nope, all boys school, spouse my only real GF (@ 23 and she was experienced) and female friends, but not really...... So late in life I found LS..... Damn LS;)

[merrmeade]

Isn't it a matter of how the people involved feel about it? It's not that all opposite-sex friendships are taboo, but he crossed a line. He knew it without acknowledging it and kept going. His wife's reaction confirmed it. Circumstances (distance) limited how far it could go — not as far as my H, for example, and in our case those circumstances were inadvertently facilitated by family members including myself. But they still knew they were allowing themselves to cross the line and created elaborate rationalizations to justify it - including the "90% friendship" angle. The betrayal that OP seems to be, I hope is, struggling with is the investment of energy and self in that otherrelationship rather than the one with his wife. The question is one only he can answer. Was that relationship growing and expanding at the expense of his supposedly primary one? Was he giving more emotionally to his online friend than to his wife? Mostly, he seems to be honestly trying to answer but at times waffles and is abetted by enabling comments.

 

But why are all the condolences for that relationship rather than for the one with his wife? Why is she belittled and criticized in some posts as "freaking out" (implying it's her exagerration or instability that creates the problem)? Where is the understanding and sympathy for the shock and betrayal she felt on discovering how much he'd invested of himself in that other relationship rather than with her and how much he talked, complained even, about her (it seems)? Of course, she'll read those emails and realize that this other person was able to fill emotional needs that she wasn't. I certainly understand saw that in emails between my SIL (OW) and H and in the time they'd invested in supporting each other, averaging 17 texts and 3 calls @ day. It's devastating. Isn't that obvious? And it's not about blame on that issue - just recognition, empathy, respect - so that now he can knowingly put energy and self into making his wife a better friend and confidante.

[merrmeade]

This page feels better. Honest, caring posts supporting what's important. Truth. Understanding. Encouragement about the important things.

Edited September 5, 2014 by merrmeade

[angie2443]

What gave me strength and I know this may rankle some is my friends. I know those she talked to are not impressed with me and frankly say I should be dumped (pretty sure that was the reaction). However I came clean to my friends and their reaction (and they all love my spouse) was that they basically laughed.

 

 

IMO, if your friends are laughing at your spouses feelings, thoughts, and pain, they don't love her. I do not feel it is possible to love someone and disrespect them this much at the same time. I understand that others disagree.

 

I remember many of your posts. It does not supprise me that you had an EA. It would not supprise me if you took it further and cheated physically. I'm not saying this to attack you. To me it seems, from looking at your posting history and getting a sense of how you frame male/female relationships, that you don't completely connect to the person inside the body. You seem to stereotype men and women a lot. I get that there some differances, but I've seen that there are men and women have much more in commen than not. You know, I love my husband, and am not attracted to women in a way that I could have a romantic relationship with them. Still, my husband's personality, soul if you will, come befor his sex when it comes to understanding and relating to him. Please don't mis-understand this to mean that I don't see differances between us that have to do with him bieng a man and me bieng a woman. I simply think that if you learned to connect more with your wife, maybe other people, on a more differant level, than some of your issues would be easiar to solve.

 

By the way, I only read the first post. If something changed in the situation, sorry for not sieng it.

[merrmeade]

A lot to chew on. I'm sorry about what happened to you. I can make excuses and say....... but..... However that is not enough. I will respectfully say my situation is much different and admit I went down that rabbit hole and can only do my best to come out a better person, husband & parent. Thank you for your comments and I hope the best for you.

Gracious, respectful acknowledgement and fair comparison — a much more reassuring response from an experienced LSer. Whew. I was getting worried that someone who had spent so many years here couldn't recognize the self-deception and waffling. I haven't been on LS steadily since my first thread and feel like a "newbie" (though in real life an oldie). It's probably unfair and imples that longer tenure on LS should produce super beings capable of changing the course of mankind. No, you're allowed to be human and say it without being crucified. (But I do not retract anything I said in my first post in this thread. It was getting crazy with the double-speak, backtracking and dismissal.)

I know people will get caught up in the 1-2 pictures and lame attempts at flirting. I also will say it was safe talking/writing to someone 3000 miles away and getting insight into the opposite sex, which I never had.

... like I said: double-speak, backtracking and dismissal. What's to get "caught up in"? It's brave of you to post considering your background with the other posters but, hey, the point is still what it means to your relationship with your wife. Of course your "situation is much different" and your 10% is probably more like 1% - the "1-2 pictures and lame attempts at flirting" - compared to the carnal knowledge between my H and SIL that made percentages ludicrous. But the point is the same and that proverbial "line" is really a misnomer. It's more like a non-demarcated no man's land with shifting, enticing edges that trick the mind and heart. I think what makes it a "line" is that you can't go back once it's crossed. My H and SIL could not pretend to themselves (though they tried) that they really just had a strong friendship and keep it there. In your case, maybe you felt fine about telling each other - oops, let's go back to the way it was, ok? - but would your wife ever feel okay with that? I doubt it and the reason is all the circumstances you've included - the reasons you didn't tell her about the relationship in the first place, the years, the amount of communication - all the ways you've described it. Whenever it became something you felt your wife would not understand. Those were the crossed lines. Not the pictures and flirting.

[Sub]

Nope, all boys school, spouse my only real GF (@ 23 and she was experienced) and female friends, but not really...... So late in life I found LS..... Damn LS;)

 

Ah. This explains a lot, then. I can partially relate. My W was much more experienced than I was when we started dating. (She had been previously engaged, more experienced sexually, etc.) So you've only been the object of affection for one woman in your life. You got the attention of someone else. It was a unique/new feeling at a relatively older age, and you ran with it. Question: Has your W ever vocalized concerns about you not being experienced enough? Or concerns prior to this relationship with the OW that, because you haven't been with other people, you'll be really curious about what it's like and get bored with her? Or something to that affect?

[SummerDreams]

I read your story with much interest and I want to share some thoughts.

 

My bf (whom I consider one of the most logical and equitable person on earth) has told me that he finds it natural that people have friends or relatives that they vent to about their spouses. He knows I talk about our relationship with my mother and cousin, and I bet he'd be ok if I talked about it with a male friend (I've tried that as well and he knows it, I just cut it myself cause I didn't want to ever make him feel uncomfortable). Another issue about sharing too much stuff with a person other than your spouse about your spouse is that if or when they meet, your spouse may feel uncomfortable about the things this person (stranger for them) knows. People in relationships go through too many things and it's a mistake to analyze these bad moments to other people cause the couple will sooner or later forgive each other and forget these incidents, but the other person will never forget or forgive. Anyway, this was my bf's point of view for this matter.

 

My point of view is that I would hate to know that my bf would talk about personal stuff with a girl other than me, not cause I'd be worried he'd may get into a PA, but cause I want to be his best friend more than anything else. If he can't talk to me about what bothers him on me, then our relationship has serious flaws. When I tell him this, he insists that it's not possible to tell your SO everything that bothers you on them cause you will make them sad, that's why there are friends that will hear you and calm you down without being too much involved.

 

I guess you don't care about my bf's or my point of view whether what you had was or was not justified so I'll go on. I would like to know what was it that bothered your wife more in you being friends with a woman. Was it that she was scared the friendship would become sexual relationship? Was it that she was jealous or mad for you sharing your secrets with another person? I'd like to know that to further understand your issue.

 

You insist too much about some things that conflict one another. First of all what other posters noted here, that you insist it was no EA, while everything shows it was. Second of all you say you are crazy about your wife, but what I don't get, if you are that crazy about her, why would you spend time and energy talking about her and your marriage's problems with a stranger? And why would your wife feel so insecure about it, when you said she knows you are crazy about her and takes it for granted? I'm asking these things cause I want to show you that you have some thoughts in your mind kinda complicated. You have to take some time and figure these things out. Stop listening to friends or to posters in here and start listening to your needs, your heart, start critisizing yourself for your mistakes and find a way to fix them. I really don't appreciate you putting your personal problems out there to your friends. Some things are private and they should remain like this. In my country we use to say "you can't fit a third person between two persons". Stop taking opinions from everywhere and try to realize what you did, why you did it, how you want to fix it, if you want to fix it. In other words, stop making your life "The Truman Show" and solve your problems only with your wife. This would be my advice. Good luck.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Ah. This explains a lot, then. I can partially relate. My W was much more experienced than I was when we started dating. (She had been previously engaged, more experienced sexually, etc.) So you've only been the object of affection for one woman in your life. You got the attention of someone else. It was a unique/new feeling at a relatively older age, and you ran with it. Question: Has your W ever vocalized concerns about you not being experienced enough? Or concerns prior to this relationship with the OW that, because you haven't been with other people, you'll be really curious about what it's like and get bored with her? Or something to that affect?

 

No told her I'd never get bored, but there has been hurt and feelings of insecurities, and lack of communication on her part. Again no excuses, and have to be careful.

 

There are many threads here when one feels continual desire for their spouse and it is not reciprocated. Women (and again generalizing) often laugh at a male's desire for sex and tell them they are silly, childish and acting like a horny teen deflecting talk of it. Women often roll their eyes when men talk sex.

 

BTW I'm all over my spouse all the time in a loving, affectionate way & don't push sex, because I know it is off-putting, but she knows I desire her and more often then not ignored it and laughed it off.

 

Sure I've posted this many times before......

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I read your story with much interest and I want to share some thoughts.

 

My bf (whom I consider one of the most logical and equitable person on earth) has told me that he finds it natural that people have friends or relatives that they vent to about their spouses. He knows I talk about our relationship with my mother and cousin, and I bet he'd be ok if I talked about it with a male friend (I've tried that as well and he knows it, I just cut it myself cause I didn't want to ever make him feel uncomfortable). Another issue about sharing too much stuff with a person other than your spouse about your spouse is that if or when they meet, your spouse may feel uncomfortable about the things this person (stranger for them) knows. People in relationships go through too many things and it's a mistake to analyze these bad moments to other people cause the couple will sooner or later forgive each other and forget these incidents, but the other person will never forget or forgive. Anyway, this was my bf's point of view for this matter.

 

My point of view is that I would hate to know that my bf would talk about personal stuff with a girl other than me, not cause I'd be worried he'd may get into a PA, but cause I want to be his best friend more than anything else. If he can't talk to me about what bothers him on me, then our relationship has serious flaws. When I tell him this, he insists that it's not possible to tell your SO everything that bothers you on them cause you will make them sad, that's why there are friends that will hear you and calm you down without being too much involved.

 

I guess you don't care about my bf's or my point of view whether what you had was or was not justified so I'll go on. I would like to know what was it that bothered your wife more in you being friends with a woman. Was it that she was scared the friendship would become sexual relationship? Was it that she was jealous or mad for you sharing your secrets with another person? I'd like to know that to further understand your issue.

 

You insist too much about some things that conflict one another. First of all what other posters noted here, that you insist it was no EA, while everything shows it was. Second of all you say you are crazy about your wife, but what I don't get, if you are that crazy about her, why would you spend time and energy talking about her and your marriage's problems with a stranger? And why would your wife feel so insecure about it, when you said she knows you are crazy about her and takes it for granted? I'm asking these things cause I want to show you that you have some thoughts in your mind kinda complicated. You have to take some time and figure these things out. Stop listening to friends or to posters in here and start listening to your needs, your heart, start critisizing yourself for your mistakes and find a way to fix them. I really don't appreciate you putting your personal problems out there to your friends. Some things are private and they should remain like this. In my country we use to say "you can't fit a third person between two persons". Stop taking opinions from everywhere and try to realize what you did, why you did it, how you want to fix it, if you want to fix it. In other words, stop making your life "The Truman Show" and solve your problems only with your wife. This would be my advice. Good luck.

 

Thanks for the words..... That is what the counselor will suss out. Saw one and now will be seeing another...... I know my side and issues and hope to better understand and articulate them in the RIGHT environment.

 

Trust me I don't want to live "The Truman Show", just trying to answer some questions here.

[merrmeade]

You insist too much about some things that conflict one another. First of all what other posters noted here, that you insist it was no EA, while everything shows it was. Second of all you say you are crazy about your wife, but what I don't get, if you are that crazy about her, why would you spend time and energy talking about her and your marriage's problems with a stranger? And why would your wife feel so insecure about it, when you said she knows you are crazy about her and takes it for granted? I'm asking these things cause I want to show you that you have some thoughts in your mind kinda complicated. You have to take some time and figure these things out. Stop listening to friends or to posters in here and start listening to your needs, your heart, start critisizing yourself for your mistakes and find a way to fix them. I really don't appreciate you putting your personal problems out there to your friends. Some things are private and they should remain like this. In my country we use to say "you can't fit a third person between two persons". Stop taking opinions from everywhere and try to realize what you did, why you did it, how you want to fix it, if you want to fix it. In other words, stop making your life "The Truman Show" and solve your problems only with your wife. This would be my advice. Good luck.

 

Exactly.

 

Very refreshing point of view. Observations without the color and influence of LS experience (I think). Makes you think.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I seldom talked about my marriage outside the occassional vent (and certainly not about sex) with my friends, nor should I. I came clean to them and told them what I did.

 

My spouse and I am okay with it did talk about her frustrations with me and she should as I am not perfect. Bottling it up is not healthy.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Appreciate]

Have you read the Married Man Sex Life Primer?

 

You could read it by yourself first, and then if you feel secure about it read it with your spouse.

 

It has helped a lot of men who feel neglected by their wives. It relies heavily on evo psych, 'game' in your marriage, earning your wive's respect and not her dismissiveness. Imagine a world where your wife is begging for it from you.

[xxoo]

I seldom talked about my marriage outside the occassional vent (and certainly not about sex) with my friends, nor should I. I came clean to them and told them what I did.

 

My spouse and I am okay with it did talk about her frustrations with me and she should as I am not perfect. Bottling it up is not healthy.

 

It sounds like you needed to confide in someone about your marriage and sex issues.

 

Why did you feel it was more appropriate to confide in a female stranger on the internet than in a close friend that you know and trust, and who is a "friend of the marriage"? (someone who knows and cares about your wife)

 

I don't think it is optimal to talk to friends about our marriage problems. A counselor is definitely a better choice. But seeking the advice of a trusted friend is far preferable to confiding in a woman you have a secret friendship with (and flirtation with) on the internet.

[Snaggletooth]

I read your OP and half skimmed the rest.

 

From what I gather, you crossed a line, recognised it, resisted temptation and owned it. It's nothing to be proud of, it is a form of betrayal, but we all have weak moments and you didn't give in to it. You didn't let fantasy become reality. From what I have read you made no excuses and that is something to be proud of. We all **** up. Life is a long hard game and throws you many a swerve ball. Honest people own their **** ups and make right their wrongs. Dishonest people excuse, rationalise and try to justify their wrongs.

 

As for friends. Real friends tell you you are being a dumbass when being a dumbass. Those who makes excuses for you, tell you did nothing wrong, minimise your actions or turn their back on you, ain't no friend.

 

Sounds to me like your Missus is your true friend. Nothing else matters. Mates, the ball game, what you once did, guilt, remorse, desire. All that matters is your woman. The rest is nowt but gloss. Take pride and honour in what you can do and be from here on out.

 

You already know this, you don't need me telling you, I just say to confirm.

[loveboid]

Once a woman gets rejected sexually she gets it. I did.

 

It doesn't happen often that women are turned down so they don't have experience. Maybe they should get turned down more? It hurts, very badly.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

When 3000 miles away and really it was yes an ego boost that a female listened to my views and opinions and shared my insecurities with. I readily admit it.

 

Yes flirting was easy when I knew nothing would come of it.

 

Talking to friends about one's marriage and especially about sex amongst males just is not something men do. We don't talk sex. Was out with 4 friends (3 divorced, one never married) and all have known for over 30 years. There was some talk about GF's and sexual innuendo and questions except none for me, as I am the one still married and she is the mother of our children..... Heck the divorced ones you never heard about their marriages or what happened behind closed doors. The dissolution of the marriages remain a mystery for the most part and is just conjecture.

 

But again anything I say to my spouse now either rings hollow, or is very difficult to verbalize because of me talking to another woman.

 

Example if I was distant and not there because I am always out with friends, playing games/sports or at events, a spouse can be upset or state I don't spend time with them. I can turn it around and say they spend too much time doing similar things or reading and too not being present.

 

The fact that I spent time talking, writing commiserating with someone of the opposite sex, even though to me it strengthened my understanding of females and in many ways made me appreciate all the good qualities she has (like LS did too), just sounds wrong and can't be easily conveyed.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Toodamnpragmatic

[MuddyFootprints]

He has a fuzzy line in the sand and I have built a concrete wall, protected by a moat filled with crocodiles.

 

I am still processing our discussion, but it was a good one.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

He has a fuzzy line in the sand and I have built a concrete wall, protected by a moat filled with crocodiles.

 

I am still processing our discussion, but it was a good one.

 

So he feels like me and probably many males (again generalizing) where unless you profess love or there is a PA, they are mostly just words (and remember men can't discuss much of this amongst themselves)?

[xxoo]

TDP, if a close friend came to you privately, without the bravado that comes with the group dynamic, and confided that he was having trouble in his marriage and needed advice, how would you respond? Would you lend an ear?

 

I know that men don't typically talk about sex with their wives, but in the case of a close friend and a true need to talk, why not?

 

And I know it is possible, because one or two friends HAVE mentioned problems to my h over the years. That's what friends are for.

[SummerDreams]

one or two friends HAVE mentioned problems to my h over the years. That's what friends are for.

 

My experience has taught me that it's wrong to discuss your problems with your spouse with other people, even if these people are your mother or sister or closest friend or whatever. The reason is that the couple always finds a way to work things out, fix the problems and forgive each other, but the thirds people don't know that and they remain with the bad impression of their loved one's spouse. What happens between the couple should stay there, cause if you start spreading this around you just create chaos and bad feelings about your spouse and the result will be people wondering why the hell you stay with such a person long after you and your spouse have fixed and forgotten the problem.

[carhill]

I know that men don't typically talk about sex with their wives, but in the case of a close friend and a true need to talk, why not?

 

I won't speak for the OP but, in my case, where I'm close friends with a man, and he's married, I'm also a close friend of his spouse and I simply believe it's inappropriate to be that close friend to her and absorb her spouse's perspective on their private marital business without her being disclosed. IMO, that's a burden which is both unfair and inappropriate for a friend to bear. Of course, if she is disclosed and is accepting of such conversations, that's different.

 

We ran into this issue in MC where I had long been frustrated with some of my exW's female friends, who were supposedly also friends of mine, knowing parts of our intimate marital business. Another man perhaps would not care, but I did and felt it was disrespectful of our marital boundaries and trust.

 

Can people say and do anything they want? Yes! However, such has consequences. Part of life!

[xxoo]

My experience has taught me that it's wrong to discuss your problems with your spouse with other people, even if these people are your mother or sister or closest friend or whatever. The reason is that the couple always finds a way to work things out, fix the problems and forgive each other, but the thirds people don't know that and they remain with the bad impression of their loved one's spouse. What happens between the couple should stay there, cause if you start spreading this around you just create chaos and bad feelings about your spouse and the result will be people wondering why the hell you stay with such a person long after you and your spouse have fixed and forgotten the problem.

 

I agree.

 

But if the reason he ended up forging an inappropriate and secret friendship with a woman online was an unmet need to discuss marriage problems, confiding in a trusted friend who cares about your marriage is a much better option. Our friends have only reached out when they really needed some help (not a habit of venting).

 

Of course, a counselor is ideal. But falling into an ea because tàlking to a friend is inappropriate is absurd to me. Lesser of evils!

Edited September 6, 2014 by xxoo