dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC-

 

It could be possible she has repressed it as well.

 

I was molested by my stepfather growing up- my mother didn't believe me when I told her and I was forced to live in that house with him until I moved out. That does something to you.

 

I went to therapy when I was older- not about the sexual abuse- I knew that was wrong and not my fault- but more about my mother not believing me. The therapist asked me how many women did I think were sexually abused in their lives- rape, etc? I said 7 out of 10 and she said, that is correct. She said how many do you think tell someone? I said I didn't know. She said only 5 out of that 7 ever tell. That's sad but those were the stats at that time. Of course that was nine years ago.

 

If you do ask her and she tells you- do NOT make this about your ego or yourself. I'm not saying that you would but that would be the WORSE thing you can do. Don't make it seem like you're pissed because this guy invaded your territory or whatever. I've had that reactions from bf's before and believe me, they were quickly gone.

[midlifecrazy]

I don't think it would be like that, a macho, territorial thing for me. It's just for some reason the whole taboo about incest has been one that has really been one that took hold for me. I find the very thought repugnant. I remember one time long ago, I think we were talking about a news story, my wife kind of casually mentioned in passing that she kept an eye on me with our daughters. I don't recall what if anything I said, probably just "Are you nuts?" or something to that effect. The idea is so alien to me. At any rate I just put it down a mother's protective instinct, if somewhat overzealous.

 

If I ever find out something like that happened it will definetly be time for us to head to the counselors office. Most likely for a long, long time.

[Mz. Pixie]

Have you ever noticed how those kind of stories affect her?? Say on the news or the news shows like 20/20???

 

The reason I'm asking is that- it's wierd. I hate to watch them because they make me so sad but then again, I'm compelled to watch them to see that someone else has been through something that I have. Does that make sense? I get really upset when I watch them.

 

Funny thing is, since my mother didn't believe me, if I was ever over there and there was a story on about that, of course my mother never believed those victims either!

 

I would never think my ex could be capable of that with his children, but some people do. It's unbelievable.

[midlifecrazy]

I don't think stories like that affect her anymore than they would the average person. At least they don't seem to. She was called for jury duty in a case like this a few years ago. It didn't go all the way to trial. I think there was a plea bargain or something. Anyway she didn't seem terribly upset over it or anything.

 

Maybe nothing happened (please God) or maybe she is repressing it. Something like that would sure explain her sexual aversion though.

[Ladyjane14]

There are lots of other issues that can affect how a woman views sex. Sometimes it doesn't take actual abuse to scar a young woman. For example, bad boyfriends who make a girl feel devalued, can make an impression on her from her formative teenage years that lasts on into old age.

 

It's unfortunate, but in our society women are often objectified. That can leave some girls feeling like they are only valued for their sexuality, and not for the complete person that they are.

[amerikajin]

The odd thing about Mrs MLC is that she's absolutely brimming over with love, affection and consideration for the kids, grandkids, family, friends, distant relatives and casual acquaintances. It almost seems as if she pours so much out on them she has nothing left for me. I've told her in the past that we need to take of us before we can take care on anyone else but she acts as if she thinks thats being selfish or silly.

 

MLC,

 

I don't know if you're going to find what you're looking for here. I may have missed it, but have you guys tried marriage counseling? I realize that's almost cliche by now, but if the counselor is good, he/she may be able to do some good. You need someone who can look at BOTH of you and help you sort your s*** out. No offense here, but we're only hearing your side of the story. I have no reason to doubt that your point of view is your genuine heartfelt appraisal of the situation, but unlike cases of infidelity or other threads we read, we don't really have a lot of objective facts to go on here, other than your dissatisfaction with your sex life.

 

If you've made up your mind, then I have one last piece of advice: whatever you do, do it with honor. You can move away from your wife, but not your kids. Regardless of how toxic the situation may seem, never forget that she's their mother. How they judge you will have to do alot with how you treat her. As well, whether you've gotten along great or not so great, I think every person has the right to be afforded the minimum amount of respect and courtesy, particulary at a time when you're ending 20 years together.

 

Third, if I recall correctly, you said somewhere in the thread that this other woman you've now taken an interest in is, in fact, married? You might want to clear that with her husband before you start knocking on her door and asking her out on dates...or at least give her time to file for divorce.

 

I honestly don't mean to sound too harsh, but just think about a few things here.

[midlifecrazy]

Not a great week on the homefront. Had a lot of outside influences to contend with so not much time to work on the relationship. Feels like it may have been a "two step back" week. She told me the other day that I could be very hateful. This was after I'd finally succumbed and fired back after a series of digs from her. And of course lacking all good sense I told her she could be hateful too. True but not tactful.

 

It seems as if I am back to square one again. I shall try to do better. If I can't get her to change I still don't know what will happen, if I'll crawl back into my old familiar rut of suppressed anger and frustration or go on and make a change myself. Neither course looks very good. I read on another thread something to the effect that there is a principle that says people leave relationships when they no longer get from it as much as they're putting into it. I don't know how true that is. My head is saying if things don't change I'll leave. My heart doesn't know if it's up to it.

 

AM counseling is still on the table and the OW is really just a fantasy of someone I was involved with long ago.

[Moose]

If I can't get her to change I still don't know what will happen,

I think you need to realize that you shouldn't be trying to change her midlife. You're suppossed to be learning how to accept her for who she is. She will begin to treat you differently once you begin to fill her, "love tank". You need to have the right mentality going into this. You can't change her anymore than she can change you. You wouldn't want her to try, so maybe you shouldn't either. It's all about accepting her.

[Ladyjane14]

Yeah, it's not her that you need to change, MLC. Anymore than she needs to be trying to change YOU. Mutual acceptance of each other as a total person is the goal. That's what will leave you both feeling loved and prioritized.

 

It's the relationship itself that needs to change. How you communicate with one another, how you support and prioritize one another; that's what needs to change.

 

It seems as if I am back to square one again. I shall try to do better.

 

As I told you before, one person can get ALOT accomplished. But eventually both partners have to get in the game. You can't do this all alone. You can get the ball rolling, but you need help to get the job done.

 

You will need support during the "two-step-back" phases. Otherwise, you're going to become overwhelmed. It's difficult to feel like you're trying your very best and getting nowhere. Let's face it, if yours was an easy task...it would have been accomplished long ago.

 

Your very best bet is to start marriage counseling. Start alone if necessary. If you can't get your wife to partner up with you on this quest initially, you still need someone.

 

I can understand how you might be resistant to the idea. I was also resistant....and frankly, I should have gone YEARS ago. I just couldn't imagine what some dime-store psychology major would be able to tell me that I didn't already know, or that I couldn't figure out on my own.

 

But that's not the point. The point is to have the support of having a confidant that I could share the burden of the problem with. Someone who is knowledgable, but not vested in the problem. Someone with a fresh perspective.

 

I talked with friends and family members for years, but they were all supportive of ME. They were on my side, and were oftentimes too emotionally invested in me to tell me in unequivocable terms when I was wrong. They were also incensed on my behalf when I was right.

 

Even here at LS, you'll meet smart people who have similar experiences. And they can give you alot in the way of insight....but not much in the way of true help.

 

You need someone who can get down into specifics with you. Who can hear the details, make suggestions, and tell you when and how to manage conflict.

 

Your relationship is going to come into a state of CONFLICT before it's resolved, one way or the other. That's a given. It is NOT something that you can avoid indefinately, but it can be a tool for positive change. I think you're going to need some guidance with that.

 

Right now, you're working on filling the "love tank" and avoiding BIG CONFLICT, until you can regain your wife's trust in your motives. That's a good strategy, and it's going to go a long way to improving your situation.

 

But eventually, "ultimatum-time" will come. And she'll be required to get on-board with the program. It's going to be a tricky business of timing and approach. But she's going to have to know at some point that you mean business.

 

The absolute BEST way to do that is with the guidance of a professional. I hope you'll give it some thought. Marriage counceling is not the cure-all for every marital ill, but in a situation like yours, where the demise of the marriage is only months away...you have nothing to lose by giving it a try.

[midlifecrazy]

I guess I don't think it's a dead horse yet. Real sick maybe, but not quite dead. It does seem to me that a relationship that's lasted 30+years is worth making a last ditch effort to repair and save.

 

The other side of the coin is that after that many years I think I know her pretty well which leads me to think that this all may useless. I may just change the level in her "love tank" instead of changing her. But it may be, and I think it is, that we are just fundamentally different sexually. It would not surprise me to find her with an overflowing love tank and yet still unable to bring herself to try and satisfy some of my needs. I guess we'll see about that.

 

This certainly isn't the first time we've come near the edge in our marriage. In fact it was about halfway through all these years that I realized we actually might not make it. But it seems as if she was always the one talking about it, stuff like " I don't know if we're going to stay together" or "I'm just going to leave" etc. She never did actually. She's the only one to use the D word. I never have. I mainly keep my mouth shut about the idea of splitting up. Sometimes she seems too eager to do it.

 

Of course there was the staying together for the kids thing and then it seemed like whenever we were nearing critical mass again some outside event would occur to divert our attention away from our personal problems until they blew over. I have made changes for her over the years and we have discussed our our sexual problems with no resolution.

 

So here I sit, I know it's too early in this process, but still I wonder what I actually will do if this is as good as it's gonna get and I'm left feeling that I have nothing ahead of me with her except a life of sexual frustration. Yeah, counseling is probably definetly in order.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I mainly keep my mouth shut about the idea of splitting up.

 

It sounds like you've gotten into the habit of avoiding conflict. Is that mostly with her?....or do you find yourself avoiding conflict with other people as well?

 

I catch myself doing it from time to time. I like to keep things peaceful. In counseling, I had the biggest problem with asking to have my needs met on certain things because I knew it would bring on conflict that I mostly prefer to avoid.

 

What I've discovered about that is the litmus test is RESENTMENT. If something is important enough to me, and I don't act on it....I am, myself, setting up conditions whereby I will feel resentful.

 

Yeah, counseling is probably definetly in order.

 

You'll feel 100% better for doing it. I didn't think I would learn anything, and I did. But more importantly I got the support that I mentioned in my last post. And I had immediate satisfaction in the idea that if it all went to hell-in-a-handbasket, I would have done all that I could.

 

As Moose said earlier, 'it was a win-win'.

[midlifecrazy]

Avoiding conflict, I never really looked at it that way but I guess that's what I'm doing with her. And while I tend to choose my battles carefully it is mainly only with her.

 

My insurance plan covers psychological counseling so I'm going to see if marriage counseling would fall under that. If not I'll have to find it elsewhere. If it costs me more out of pocket well it's not like getting a divorce is going to be cheap.

 

I hope to try and get her to take that online relationship test soon. I would really like to see what kind of number she comes up with. It might open her eyes or it might surprise me. I took it again today and being as charitable as I could still got a 42 when anything over 32 indicates a serious danger of breaking up. Of course I'm still running on an empty tank.

 

Anyway when we get to the point of actual counseling either together or me alone, maybe she'll finally realize that I AM serious, it is OUR problem and it is SERIOUS. One can only hope. If she doesn't get the picture then, she probably never will.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

My insurance plan covers psychological counseling so I'm going to see if marriage counseling would fall under that. If not I'll have to find it elsewhere. If it costs me more out of pocket well it's not like getting a divorce is going to be cheap.

 

This is not usually a problem. Sometimes they can submit claims under the heading of a more generalized diagnosis, like anxiety or depression....which are recognized as treatable under most mental health policies. The counselling service will hammer out all the details with your insurance company usually. I was surprised at how little I actually had to do in my case.

 

I'm glad you're considering it though. I don't think your wife sees Vesuvius on the horizon yet.

[midlifecrazy]

Oh I'm certain she's still unaware of how just critical the situation is. I've been working on making her happy and trying to make no complaints or requests for myself so she's probably been lulled even farther in complacency. There really has been no more evidence though that my efforts are having any effect since the lovemaking of nearly 2 weeks ago.

 

I think I may be becoming manic/depressive or something though. Today I actually started feeling pretty good when I started thinking about things. Maybe it's just the fact that I feel like I'm finally doing something But I'm beginning to realize that sooner or later I am going get what I feel I need and deserve. If it is with my wife that will be fantastic. If not then it will be time for us to go our own ways. I guess I've answered my own "what if" question. At least for today.

 

Manic/depressive, that would be something the insurance ought to pay for,

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

Today I actually started feeling pretty good when I started thinking about things. Maybe it's just the fact that I feel like I'm finally doing something But I'm beginning to realize that sooner or later I am going get what I feel I need and deserve. If it is with my wife that will be fantastic. If not then it will be time for us to go our own ways. I guess I've answered my own "what if" question. At least for today.

 

That's the "win/win" part. Feels pretty good too, doesn't it? 'Expecting the best, and planning for the worst' leaves you ready for ANYTHING.

 

Sometimes the outcome doesn't matter so much, when you know you're giving it your best. It's knowing that you went the extra mile, that makes the possibility of the negative outcome tolerable.

[midlifecrazy]

Pretty stagnant week, nothing much to report, just kind of stuck in the doldrums it seems. Mrs did get one of the wishes she said she wanted but it hasn't seemed to boost her mood much so far.

 

The sniping continues. One thing about being together so long is your partner really learns which buttons to push. She hit a particularly sore spot one day and I did fire back. Even an old dog will snap if you poke him in the wrong place. Fortunately I think I managed to temper and deflect my response enough that it didn't degenerate into an all out fight.

 

Lil honey said something in her post about maybe Mrs MLC wanted to make me be the one to have an affair or at least be the one to walk out and file for divorce. so she wouldn't feel guilty about it. I certainly wonder about that as she really doesn't seem to concerned whether I go.

 

Have learned that the grown kid who returned home will be moving out again in a month or so. That's when the games will really begin I think. In fact the homecoming was what put off the coming showdown all this past winter. Last fall I was pretty well worked up into breaking up. Of course this coincided with the return of the old flame too,regardless of if I'd have any chance with her.

 

Anyway it was probably a good thing that it was delayed so I have had

more time to think about it and give the marriage one last good faith chance.

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC-

 

Been wondering about you- glad to see a update.

 

How are you feeling about everything that's happening?

[moimeme]

You're right, MLC. You will know, when all's said and done, that you gave it a rum go.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

Have learned that the grown kid who returned home will be moving out again in a month or so. That's when the games will really begin I think. In fact the homecoming was what put off the coming showdown all this past winter.

 

This could be a good time to get your marriage counseling scheduled. Sometimes it takes several weeks to get in.

 

Have you had any positive feedback at all on your "love" campaign?

 

This could also be a good time to journal out the efforts that you're making, and take note of the responses you receive, positive or negative. You'll be ready to take your progress journal to MC. I think it could be a great tool in speeding up the process, so that this coming month is not all wasted time.

 

If you continue to wait for an optimal time to confront...you might NEVER find one. This is beginning to explain how THIRTY YEARS have gone by!

[midlifecrazy]

The love campaign seems ineffectual, almost as if I were doing nothing at all. That's not the case. I am trying to indulge her as much as possible. Whenever I suggest something I think might be a fun activity for us like a movie or whatever she shoots it down. I'm trying to cover all the "love lanquages" but still keep coming up empty.

 

Hard to beleive but it's been about a month now, I think, since I started this effort. I'm beginning to feel like it's hopeless. I was rubbing her back yesterday and my hand strayed south of the border. I know I said I'd let her make any sexual advances but it's been 3 weeks after all and it wasn't a blatantly sexual caress. All I got was a "stop that" and a there he goes again look.

[Mz. Pixie]

You know, I was guilty of withholding sex from my exh in my marriage but I never withheld over a week! I only did that because he continually wouldn't meet my needs out of the bedroom no matter how often I explained it to him. It blows my mind that you are trying to "woo her back" and she's not responding. That's a sad state of where the marriage has gone because in the end my exh tried it but it was just too late. Only difference is, I came out and told him.

 

She sounds like she just might want to lead a sex free lifestyle? How sad for her and for you.

 

LJ is right, the water is not getting any hotter while you sit and stew..........

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I know I said I'd let her make any sexual advances but it's been 3 weeks after all and it wasn't a blatantly sexual caress. All I got was a "stop that" and a there he goes again look.

 

So did you feel like a complete perv or what? That couldn't have been a comfortable moment for you. You must have felt some kind of resentment bubbling up from inside. How could you not?

 

It's great that you're making such a strong effort in meeting her needs. That said, it doesn't get you off the hook in ASKING to have your needs met. You are responsible for communicating your needs to her. The woman doesn't have a crystal ball, and seems to be handicapped by a generalized state of cluelessness to begin with.

 

There's just NO WAY around it. Believe me, I've tried. So I understand your discomfort. It's hard to put yourself out there and ask for what you need....to risk rejection and rebuff. But you have to do it.

 

What I've found is that when you don't do it....it's YOU who is choosing the path to resentment. You don't have to hold onto that bitter feeling, when you KNOW you addressed the situation in the right way. You can let the other person totally OWN it. You can let it be their problem, and not yours.

 

You don't have to be angry. You don't have to be rude. But you've got to get your cards up on the table at some point. You cannot succeed otherwise.

 

The problem that I see in waiting much longer to confront is that you are getting ZERO back on your investment in the love campaign. Could be, that she just thinks you're up to something and wants to see how long you can keep going. But the reality is.....that you can't.

 

You'll build resentment a little at a time, in every incident like the one you cited. It won't be long until you're flat out disgusted with the whole effort. You'll be fine with it one day....and DONE with it the next. It's very much like the "straw that breaks the camel's back".

 

You're not in the game MLC....until you get off the bench.

[Mz. Pixie]

I agree with Lady Jane. Sometimes you can ask, and ask and ask and tell and tell what your needs are, and the person just never listens.

 

LJ- I never saw it the way you said it- that that puts it back on the other person- but I guess it does. Good way to look at it.

[moimeme]

He's not been on the beach. He asked her to go to counselling to save the marriage and she refused. IMHO, she's in total, irredeemable shutdown mode and this poor guy is going to turn himself inside out trying to get some sort of friendly response - to no avail. Again, I salute you for trying, MLC.

[midlifecrazy]

Mz P, yes she has told me that sex isn't important to her and she could do without it. What an ego booster that is!

 

LadyJ no I didn't feel like a perv just rejected again. But you're right about the resentment.

You'll build resentment a little at a time, in every incident like the one you cited. It won't be long until you're flat out disgusted with the whole effort. You'll be fine with it one day....and DONE with it the next. It's very much like the "straw that breaks the camel's back". I'm getting closer to that point.

 

I'm a little confused about the telling her what I need part. I've been doing that for years. I thought was to put my needs on the back burner while I concentrated on fulfilling hers.

 

Moi thanks for your continued support.

 

Now, there have been two more chapters in the butt rubbing story. First, the next morning Mrs woke me up getting out off bed to go to the bathroom. I awoke in a state of "arousal". When she came back to bed I thought what the hell she gets herself going so maybe if I did the same something might develop. Nah, when she became aware of what I was doing she got up again, left the room and didn't come back. So I just gave up and went back to sleep.

 

Second, we watched the movie "Sideways" which turned out to be surprisingly racy. We went to bed afterward an I hoped maybe that might of inspired her. But no, when I started caressing her it was "what do you think you're doing" literally. I again just rolled over and went to sleep.

 

Here's the really bad part. I hate to admit it but I had a wet dream. A man my age and married as long as I have been acting like a horny teenager after a hot date. Wish I could recall what happened. I'd send this dream girl a dozen roses.

 

I'm going to tell Mrs about it and ask her again what am I supposed to do for sex. May be the wrong move but somethings got to give.