dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[Ladyjane14]

Wow! That's quite an example of inconsiderate behavior on her part. It makes one wonder if she's connected at all in the relationship. It's completely thoughtless, as if it didn't even occur to her that she was "leaving you hanging" as it were. Like it never dawned on her.

 

I think that example is a really good indicator of how emotionally disconnected she is from you.

 

Maybe I haven't got to this part yet, but I'm wondering how you're supposed to fill up someone else's "love tank" when yours is running on empty?

 

This is something that you have to take some responsibility for. We all do really, in each of our relationships. This was a difficult thing for me to learn, because it just doesn't come naturally for me.

 

You have to recognize what your own needs are in the relationship, and then address them with your partner. You have to be willing to say..."this is what I need to be happy and to feel loved in my relationship".

 

That's why the whole communications thing is so important. Because you have to be able to talk with your partner in ways that are undemanding, and yet enlightening. It's a matter of communicating the message itself without the heat of negative emotions. And conversely, receiving information from your partner in the same way.

 

Are you and your wife talking at all about the relationship? Is she aware of your efforts to repair the marriage?

 

If not, then I think you should let her know that you're serious about making changes.

 

The above example of the disconnect in your relationship is a really clear indicator that changes MUST be made in order for the marriage to survive. She's going to have to know that at some point. Might as well be now, rather than later.

 

I'm not saying that you should issue THE ULTIMATUM, at this time. It's better to save that for the last resort. But you do need to tell her that you are unhappy and that you're desirous of improving the relationship.

 

Why not ask her to read the book with you? Tell her something to the effect of...

"as an act of love for you, I'm reading this book to try to improve our relationship. I'm not happy with how lonely I've been feeling in our relationship. I can't be a good husband to you, when I am this unhappy. I can't feel your love for me anymore. I don't think I'm expressing my love for you in a way that allows you to feel happy either. And so, as an act of love for me....I'd like for you also to read this book. That will allow us to discuss it, and maybe find some ways to improve our marriage so we can BOTH be happier in it.

 

If she refuses, and can't be bothered to even read a book for you.... Well, if it were me I'd go directly to the yellow pages and start looking up Attorneys. I'm sorry to say it. But asking someone to do such a small thing, is NOT asking too much.

 

I think one thing that will help you in your efforts to communicate with her, is to give the correct labels for your emotional responses. i.e. "It makes me angry to be frustrated. I'm frustrated because I'm lonely". Our red-hot negative emotions almost always stand for some other emotion, particularly when they are chronic. You might get angry with another driver who cuts you off in traffic, but that's not chronic.

 

When you're talking with someone who you are already in miscommunication with, it's just best to be as clear as you can be. From the woman's perspective, I can tell you that I understand my husband better when he says, "I feel..(this way)." If he only says, "I feel angry", I'm probably not going to understand his POV, because it's not telling me WHY. If he tells me, "I feel lonely", then I'm going to be able to identify with it right away. I hope that makes sense.

 

So to make a long ramble shorter.... ASK for what you need to fill your love tank. Not what you want but rather what you need. I suspect from having read your posts, that much like my own husband, you're probably a Quality Time person, who hasn't been getting the undivided attention that you've been longing for.

 

If you both read the book together, you'll be able to call her on it.

[Mz. Pixie]

Ladyjane-

 

Just reading what you wrote about how if she can't be bothered to read a book for you................

 

I copied the emotional needs questionaire for my H and I when I was trying to make our marriage work. I filled out mine- he threw his in the garbage.

 

MLC- to leave you "hanging" after she had her orgasm was very low. I will say this though- sometimes with my XH I would wish he would just for once fufill my need without expecting something in return. Sometimes I would give him sexual pleasure just for himself, without expecting something in return- I could never get that from him. It was very unselfish of you not to get extremely angry at that point.

 

I loved the part where you said you were going to bliss her out! Cute!

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Mz. Pixie

 

I copied the emotional needs questionaire for my H and I when I was trying to make our marriage work. I filled out mine- he threw his in the garbage.

 

Yeah Pixie, I've noticed on several occasions the similarities in our marital relationships. We're like the opposite sides of the same coin!

 

My husband stepped up to the plate and read that book even though he'd have preferred a root canal. (However, he very manfully did NOT let his aversion show. ) These days, he gets lots of home-cookin'.

 

Your husband tossed his questionairre.....and look how that worked out! He's probably eating Chef Boyardee out of the can as we speak!

 

Seriously though, when the relationship is in trouble, just one person can get ALOT accomplished initially...but at some point our partners have to get in the game. It's too bad that your husband could never see that.

 

I hope Mrs. MLC will be more observant.

[midlifecrazy]

LadyJ, MzP, wow ladies you got more upset about my being "left hanging" than I did. Guess this is what I've been conditioned to expect over the years. I hate to paint a bad picture of her when she's not able to answer for herself but if anyone has been selfish in the bedroom it's her. If she doesn't want it we don't do it.

 

As I've said before it's been this way forever. She's told me many times that she's just not interested in sex. Doesn't do much for the old male ego. I'm afraid this may all be an exercise in futility but I'll keep trying for awhile.

 

Ladyj I thought at first you were going to hit me with a bit of sarcasm about being her being inconsiderate. I thought you meant because I mentioned she turned down the glass of wine I brought her. Gawd, I sound like I'm whipped.

 

I haven't attempted to discuss our relationship since I fell through the ice with that sex therapy thing. I haven't even let her see the book. Figured I might just leave it laying around, see if she takes the bait. But maybe the direct approach would be better. I felt so bad after the beating I took from her over sex therapy that I'm not real anxious to go through it again very soon.

 

I don't know, just got to feel my way along for awhile.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I haven't attempted to discuss our relationship since I fell through the ice with that sex therapy thing. I haven't even let her see the book. Figured I might just leave it laying around, see if she takes the bait. But maybe the direct approach would be better. I felt so bad after the beating I took from her over sex therapy that I'm not real anxious to go through it again very soon.

 

Moose has a technique that he calls Discussion Ball. I think he'd be a good one to talk to about approaching the subject with her. It would still entail the direct approach, but it is more controlled....so tempers have less of a chance to rise.

 

Maybe he'll be good enough to post it for us..,(hint,hint,hint )

[moimeme]

It makes one wonder if she's connected at all in the relationship.

 

From what Midlifecrazy told us in earlier posts, that appears to be the case. It's possible she'll connect again but I, I'm sorry to say, remain pessimistic about this lady. Some of the things we were told early on were very telling. However, proceed. It would be nice if I missed this one.

[midlifecrazy]

The odd thing about Mrs MLC is that she's absolutely brimming over with love, affection and consideration for the kids, grandkids, family, friends, distant relatives and casual acquaintances. It almost seems as if she pours so much out on them she has nothing left for me. I've told her in the past that we need to take of us before we can take care on anyone else but she acts as if she thinks thats being selfish or silly.

 

The thing is I don't think I've done anything to deserve such treatment. I've never chased around, always been a good provider and helped with the kids and around the house. She stayed home with the kids most of the time and has worked a full time 40 hour per week job less than 1 year total during our marriage. (Can someone please pass me some cheese to go with my wine?)

 

I know this is stuff I need to talk to her about and that time is coming soon. Despite her easy embrace of the idea of divorce, I don't think she's ever really thought that one fully through. I think she'd find it a lot less pleasant than staying with me and at least making an effort to make me happy.

[Mz. Pixie]

I can most certainly guarantee she hasn't thought it completely through, and even if she has she isn't prepared for what it will be like.

 

It's like having children- you read all the books, you think you're ready but in reality no one can tell you what it's like until you do it.

 

I was just telling a friend of mine at work this today. She's very young- married when she was 20- says she is not in love with her H anymore. I said, have you really thought about what it will be like without him? First of all, you have a big brand new house- you can't afford that divorced so kiss that goodbye. Secondly, can you make it financially on your own? It's HARD. Plus, you are still sexually attracted to this person right? She said yes. I said well, I personally think you could benefit from counseling. Her H wants to go so maybe they will. I hope so.

I was explaining to her that the hardest part for me is not being able to buy my kids something when they need it.

 

The other day I was at the store getting a shower gift for a dear friend. I couldn't afford it but he's been so helpful to me I had to get something. My daughter was with me and she kept admiring the clothes and saying "Momma look how pretty". I couldn't purchase anything for her. And she needs things for spring. That is the kind of stuff that breaks my heart. Not when I have to sacrifice but when I can't do things for them.

 

If your wife has only worked for less than a year your entire marriage then she really has no idea what it would be like financially. Even if she gets alimony (i am not) and child support, it's still hard as most men outearn women by at least double.

 

I'm sorry- I am still having a hard time with this leaving you hanging thing. I wouldn't have done that to H under the worst circumstances. She sounds so selfish.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

The odd thing about Mrs MLC is that she's absolutely brimming over with love, affection and consideration for the kids, grandkids, family, friends, distant relatives and casual acquaintances. It almost seems as if she pours so much out on them she has nothing left for me. I've told her in the past that we need to take of us before we can take care on anyone else but she acts as if she thinks thats being selfish or silly.

 

That's probably avoidance. There are lots of underlying causes for it. In my personal situation, there were times that it was just too difficult to deal with my husband. Other people were easier to communicate with.

 

There can be lots of causes for that.....sexual avoidance, boredom, excessive conflict, etc. It can't help but seem personal from your POV, when she's sweet to EVERYONE but you.

 

The thing to do is to identify the specific causes. These "causes" are the key to ALL the problems in the relationship.....the reasons why the marriage isn't what it could and should be.

 

You'll have to be in a state of positive communication to do that though. You two are going to have to start talking at some point.

 

I'm in agreement with both you and Mz Pixie, in that I don't think your wife can fully appreciate the devastation of divorce. At her age, she's unlikely to find another relationship which could in any way rival the 30-year relationship that she's had with you...that is if she could engage a man at all. You are her FAMILY. And let's face it, with small exception, a woman has a better shot at getting hit by a bus than by true love at mid-life. (Not to even mention the daunting prospect of being financially responsible for herself for the first time in her life. )

 

You know, there's another thing about middle-aged women....oftentimes they're so involved in staving off old age and recapturing their youth, that they're distracted away from what's truly important in life. Even worse, they don't know what old women know.

 

And what old women know is this....that for the most part and with small exception, if they had it all to do over again....they'd have spent a little less time fretting at their man, and a little more time making love with him. (You have to be priveledged enough to know some little old ladies that are willing to talk frankly in order to find all that out though! )

 

Life is short, and the paradox is that sometimes we get so caught up with the knowledge of that fact....that we fail to make the most of it. And making the most of it is, at times, NOT what we thought it would be. You can climb a mountain and be proud of it until your dying day, but it won't be mountain-climbing that you embrace in that moment. It'll be the hand that's holding yours.

[Moose]

Maybe he'll be good enough to post it for us..,(hint,hint,hint )

I can't seem to find it anywhere.....I'm too swamped at the office today to look, but someone found it for me before, hopefully that angel will come back.......

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Moose...

 

 

"Discussion Ball"

 

1. Set up a day, totally dedicated to discussion time with your significant other.

 

a. Make it during the day.

b. Try to have children, if any, at the sitters and out of ear shot.

c. Have lunch planned ahead of time, delivered if possible.

 

2. Find a ball, stuffed toy, pillow, or anything soft that won't cause damage if thrown. This will be your, "Discussion ball".

 

3. Flip a coin to decide who goes first.

 

a. For first timers, whoever initiates the discussion goes first.

b. Plan for monthly, bi-monthly, or quarterly, "Discussion ball", discussions.

 

4. Whoever goes first, holds the, "Discussion Ball" and therefore holds the table.

 

a. The other person is not allowed to say anything.

b. The other person is not allowed to interrupt.

c. The other person is not allowed to grunt, clear throat, or correct the holder of the, "Discussion Ball".

 

5. Once the, "Discussion Ball", holder is finished making their point, the ball is passed to the other person.

 

a. Responses are allowed a 2 minute rebuttal. (Keep a timer)

b. After rebuttal, responder can bring up a new issue.

 

6. Repeat until both parties feel satisfied with the, "Discussion Ball", discussion.

 

a. Take breaks when neccessary to avoid stress and comments made out of anger.

b. Never allow, "Discussion Ball", discussion go into the evening hours.

c. Each participant is to keep a notebook to write down areas of improvement suggested by their significant other.

 

7. Part from each other for at least 2 hours for personal reflection.

 

a. Keep your notebook with you to write down your thoughts.

b. Write down foreseen problems you may encounter in your area of improvement.

c. Make a plan to knock down obsticales in your way of accomplishing area of improvement.

 

8. Do something unexpected and kind for your significant other.

 

[Moose]

LJUR#1

[midlifecrazy]

Finished the Chapman book. Got to admit, it was very interesting. I saw my wife and myself described in it several times. It did give me a different outlook on what my wife's love language might be. I had thought receiving gifts but now I think is might really be acts of service. Or maybe a combination although the displeasure she has shown over a few gifts in the past may rule that out.

As for me, I'm going to stay with physical touch. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

The other night we were watching TV and she asked me if I hated her. This after I had just brought her the last chocolate chip cookie in the house 20 minutes before. I may have been a bit moody because shortly before the scad of grandkids that were dumped on us unannounced and unexpectedly has just finally been picked up by their parents.(hence the dearth of cookies)

 

That sounds horrible considering how much I love those kids but I would at least liked to be asked ahead of time (it wasn't an emergency). And since it was their supper time they could have been fed before they were brought over instead of expecting us to run around and hurry up and get them fed.

 

Anyway after she said that I went and got the book and showed it to her. I told her I was trying to figure out how to show her better how I loved her. She said "well aren't you a sweetheart"(sincerely). I then said something like she might to read it to which she said "what, what did you say?" That sounded ominously the sound of ice cracking beneath my feet again so I skittered back to safety told her I said "I enjoyed reading it'. That's where we left it. The book has been sitting around but she hasn't picked it up yet.

 

I'm going to pick my time to approach her with it again but we've had a lot of activity intruding on us lately. The "discussion ball" technique is miles away from where we're at right now but maybe we might reach it later. We'll see.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I may have been a bit moody because shortly before the scad of grandkids that were dumped on us unannounced

 

I have a different outlook on situations like this than my husband does. I have a sense of hospitality, like your wife probably does, that would insist that I allow an impromptu visit. But....I also have a sense of responsibility in NOT putting myself into circumstances which will breed resentment.

 

In other words, it's incumbent upon me to let others know where my boundaries are, so that I am not obliged to hate them later for stepping on my toes.

 

So, you're in a tough spot there. If you disallow the unscheduled visit, the wife is mad...because she'll think you were rude. And if you speak up and ask that the visits be scheduled.....well, then you'll be accused of trying to control her life.

 

You're left to show your displeasure by being "moody".

 

All-in-all, and from a woman's POV, I'd rather hash it out....than deal with a sulky man. I bet she would too.

 

 

 

I'm going to pick my time to approach her with it again but we've had a lot of activity intruding on us lately. The "discussion ball" technique is miles away from where we're at right now but maybe we might reach it later. We'll see.

 

At some point, you two are going to have to start talking.

 

But if you feel like you need to sneak up on it....well, you are the one who knows your situation best. Just bear in mind that progress won't be made until there is healthy communication, okay? You'll be disappointed if you expect to resolve these issues without conflict.

 

Conflict is okay, and even healthy, as long as it is NOT left unresolved.

 

Regarding the book, maybe you could try talking about it in casual conversation? Maybe make a little reference here and there. Could make her curious enough to actually read it.

 

I've got to say though, if it were me....I'd pick my time, turn off the TV, take the phone off the hook, and just lay my cards on the table. What's she going to do? Get mad? She's gonna get mad no matter what you say!

 

Really think about it, she's going to be hearing that she's not "up to snuff" as a wife. It's criticism, and NOBODY takes that well.

 

But criticism is valid as long as it's constructive.....meaning that you hope to accomplish positive change by saying it. Of course, what goes around comes around....so the down-side is you have to listen to it to.

[midlifecrazy]

A strange few days. Finally got enough alone time to try to have a serious conversation with her. I told her I was trying to figure out how to show her I loved her because I thought I hadn't been doing a good job at it so far. She says she knows I love her. I tell her I would like for her to read the book so she can get some idea of what I am talking about with regards to love languages. She says she knows I would for her to.

 

It so happens she has gotten some new books from a book club. One of them is a Bible with various commentaries written in it. Somehow she opens it up to one discussing the sexual relationship in marriage. She reads it out loud. One of the points made is that if one partner does not try to fulfill their spouse's sexual needs then that spouse is doomed to a life of sexual frustration (ruling out divorce or dalliances with old or new lovers I guess). Her comment? "What's that doing in the Bible?"

 

I had to suppress a chuckle. I told her that that was odd because a lot of what the article said sounded similar to stuff in Chapman's book which she then picked up and began to browse through. It must not have caught her interest because I left the room for a little bit and when I returned she was asleep with the book laying on her chest.

 

I didn't press her on it. The day passed she seemed moody and quarrelsome but I didn't take the bait and just tried do get along with her. That tone continued all evening until we went to bed. Making love was pretty far from my mind but somehow we ended up doing it. It was pretty much the regular routine with maybe just a little more involvement on her part. But I enjoyed it and accepted it as i said I would.

 

The next day passed uneventfully. I asked her what I could do to make her happy. She said she was happy. She never picked up the book again that day.

 

The next morning we talked again while lying in bed. I asked all the questions what I did or didn't do, could or shouldn't do to show her I loved her. She again said she knew I loved her. I finally got her to say a couple of things that I already had on the agenda but no earth shattering relevations. I again said I'd like for her to read the book. She said basically that she doesn't like to read. I mentioned the fiction books she reads and she said that was different.

 

I told her I was trying to figure out her love language. I said I liked to me touched. She said she used to touch me more but that always led to me wanting sex. I don't think that's true but I guess it is to her. I said I enjoyed hugging and cuddling without having to have sex and she said that's just since I read my book. I'll stand by one of my earlier posts on this one.

 

Anyway to prove me wrong she went ahead and made love to me again (lol) And it was even better than the previous time. That's twice in 3 days. But if the past is any indicator it may be a long time before she's interested again.

 

Guess I'll just keep working on it. So far so good.

[Ladyjane14]

I had a good chuckle when I read your post....no suppression She must be sooooo confused by your new attitude.....completely bewildered at the change in you. ( Next, she'll be posting to the infidelity board wondering if you're acting strange because you're having an affair. )

 

On the plus side, you did have sex 2 out of 3 days, so you can consider your program to be working, albeit slowly.

 

On the minus side, I would have hoped she'd be more willing to get on board with reading the materials and talking. However, some people are very resistant to change. It is frightening for them to leave behind the status quo. It brings on a new set of responsibilities. If you KNOW what you're supposed to be doing, it becomes incumbent upon you to do it.

 

But your children are grown, and you are 100% right to want to ensure that your relationship is healthy at this time. Geez, imagine retirement, and rattling around the house together with someone who is either going to be your boon companion...or an unending thorn in your side.

 

So, if she wants to know what the impetus for change is....tell her that much at least. If it's not a good relationship in your middle years, what can be expected in the so-called golden ones?

 

I think, if it were me, I'd continue to talk about the book in general conversation. Perhaps try to engage her interest by asking her which catagory she thinks that she, herself, would most likely fit into. In hearing about the love languages, it would certainly make me curious as to what my own might be.

 

You might consider trying another book as well. Maybe His Needs / Her Needs by Harley, or Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus by Gray. Try the library in order to avoid additional expense. Chapman's book is good, but I don't think any one book or program is the 'be all and end all' on the subject. All of these ideas and methods must still be taylored to the specific couple.

[Moose]

I would suggest to not ask her to read the book again. Keep it out in the open, and refer to it now and then in casual conversations, and demonstrate it in your actions. If you continue to hound her to read it, you're going to push her further away. It sound to me that your wife's personality is like that of a child who'll do the opposite of what you suggest. (I'm not calling your wife a child, it was not meant as an insult).

 

Also, next time it looks like she's engaging in sex, (just to prove that you can't cuddle without it), stop her. Get out of bed if you have to, and tell her you're getting a drink and book to cuddle up to her with, maybe even a candle.

 

Lastley, you keep asking her, "what can I or can't I do to show I love you", or something to that affect. You may want to lay off asking her. This is where you're going to have play the dedective, and figure this one out on your own. You may be surprise on what and how you discover her needs, and even spark a few fires.

 

One thing I can tell you, is that if you are successful at finding out what her love language is all on your own, she's going to love you even more than before for all the footwork you subjected yourself to.

 

Keep up the good work! I know she's figuring out how she means to you, little by little, but it's working.

[Ladyjane14]

One more thing....

 

You don't have to take that "I know you love me" B.S. as an excuse not to talk. Look her right in the eye, and very sweetly say something to the effect of:

 

"Honey, if you really knew that I loved you, you wouldn't think that my ONLY interest in you is sexual. I miss your companionship, I miss your smile, I miss being your best friend and confidant. And while it's true that I do want our relationship to be a sexual one....for me that is just another expression of the many ways in which we show our love to one another."

 

You know, whatever variations on the theme best apply to your particular case will work. The important thing is that you don't let her shut you down when you want to talk. And if you're expressing an interest in her, or an understanding of her POV, while you're doing that so much the better.

[midlifecrazy]

Yeah, I don't think I'm going to ask her to read the book anymore. I can't make it anymore plain about that than I already have. I think I'll just leave it lying around in a conspicuous spot and read on it again myself every once and awhile. Maybe she'll get curious about it yet.

 

Ditto with the questions about if she feels loved or what makes her do so. Maybe just test the waters once a week or so to gauge her reactions. I'm still considering trying to get her to take Dr Phil's relationship quiz but then I know she'll want to know what I scored on it. If I recall right anything above 32 was really bad and I scored 43. I'm afraid she'd come up with a nice "safe" number and feel terrible because I didn't. Stupid isn't it? She might not even take it but I guess if she did it would be one way to advance the conversation. I suppose I would't have to give her the actual number I scored, just say it "wasn't too good".

I have taken it several times over the past few months at various highs and lows in our relationship and get consistently "dangerous" scores.

 

Oh by the way Moose, a candle? The thought had crossed my mind to buy her a vibrator in hopes of revving her up. But I'm afraid if I did that she wouldn't need me at ALL!

[Moose]

Oh no, I didn't mean use the candle for that!

 

And go ahead and get her the vibrator......it can't hurt. Mrs. Moose became more, "active", with me after I got her one.

[Mz. Pixie]

I'm just jumping in here for a second but in the Bible it says that husbands and wives should not withhold themselves sexually from each other.

 

If she's using the Bible as a tool then perhaps she needs to read that part!

[midlifecrazy]

Yeah MzP, that's what I'm saying. She was amazed that there was such a commentary in the Bible. I don't want to step on any toes but the way I understand it years ago the Catholic church used to teach that sex was only for making babies. If you couldn't resist and had to indulge you could go ahead and do it. But you were disgusting and weak and should do it as little as possible and never talk about it.

 

Now my wife wasn't raised Catholic or with any other real strong religious background but I have a suspicion that deep down that's the way she really feels. Sex is like going to the dentist to get a tooth filled, not very pleasant but something you just have to do sometimes.

[Mz. Pixie]

Perhaps.... did she suffer any type of sexual abuse in her childhood? You may not even know, because she may have never told. Sometimes that skews a persons view of sex.

 

I felt like sex was a chore sometimes with my X because he wasn't meeting my needs otherwise. I got to where I couldn't even enjoy it.

 

I never want to get to that point ever again. That is where the communication comes in.

 

By the way, on the Bible and sex........anyone who has doubts about how God feels about it should read Song of Solomon. That book alone should let anyone know that he designed that for pleasure for his children. Not getting on my religious soap box but I read it recently and I was surprised at how erotic it is.

[Moose]

You bet God wants us to enjoy sex!! The Bible is full of soft porn and mid-evil stories that would blow minds even today. People need to read it more.

[midlifecrazy]

The question of the possibility of her having been sexually abused has definitely entered my mind before. She claims to have had a nervous breakdown when she was 15. And supposedly her mother was molested by her father (my wife's grandfather). Now I remember, she never said he did anything to her but put his hand on her and her sister's knee but she was uncomfortable around him.

 

He was a disgusting piece of trash from what I saw and thankfully he died soon after we were married and the birth of our first child, a girl. I was glad to see him go. I thought at the time that if there was ever anyone I could kill without compunction it was him if he touched my daughter.

 

Gawd that's probably it, isn't it. I know it's gutless and selfish but whenever I wondered about it I never asked her because I'm not sure if I want to know the answer. I know if if did happen she was a victim and it wasn't her fault but still I don't know how I'd feel about it. Right now I feel like I'm on the edge of a chasm teetering forward.