Els Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Technically it really is her right to dress however she likes in her own home, and she isn't necessarily doing it just to be provocative. I would suggest not focusing so much on this aspect, but rather on the overarching problem - that she is proposing a sexless marriage and doesn't seem interested in fixing it. Given the nature of her medical problem, would you be open to sex that doesn't involve PIV? If you are, you two could work with that for the time being. It doesn't necessarily have to be PIV or nothing. If she doesn't even want to touch you and give you a BJ/HJ (and be touched by you, in areas that don't hurt her), I suspect you might have more on your plate than medical issues. Edited July 9, 2014 by Elswyth 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Salvatore85 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 You only live once my friend. Don't spend any of it miserable. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Author DrJam Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 Technically it really is her right to dress however she likes in her own home, and she isn't necessarily doing it just to be provocative. I would suggest not focusing so much on this aspect, but rather on the overarching problem - that she is proposing a sexless marriage and doesn't seem interested in fixing it. Given the nature of her medical problem, would you be open to sex that doesn't involve PIV? If you are, you two could work with that for the time being. It doesn't necessarily have to be PIV or nothing. If she doesn't even want to touch you and give you a BJ/HJ (and be touched by you, in areas that don't hurt her), I suspect you might have more on your plate than medical issues. I agree that she should be able to wear what she wants, and especially if it makes her more comfortable. But man is it hard to supress your sexual side when someone you find irisitable is walking around naked! I have told her i do not need PIV, just need to feel like we are close again. I am planning on having a good talk with her this evening about these issues. Thanks for the insight everyone! Link to post Share on other sites
beach Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Has a talk changed anything in the past? If it hasn't - then talk won't change it now - YOUR new ACTION could change it... IF she gets scared you're leaving her. And you stated you don't need penetration - but seeing that she's unwilling to give a bj or hj - what else can she offer? Doesn't look like she's offered you options to no penetration - just abstinence. If abstinence isn't good enough for you - then you have a decision to make: Live a married life without sex Or Get divorced and be free from her ways Or Tell her point blank that the M is open and you intend to find a good fit for your sexual needs to be met. If she's unwilling to participate with your needs - then she's left you with minimum options. You have every right to be happy... And if that means leaving her behind - so be it. Life is too short man. It's just to miserable with a partner that's selfish. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
jay1983 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 When i explain how i feel about seeing her naked her she says "you would feel that way about any naked women" and "just get over it". Dr.J. This isn't right man, something about this just doesn't gel. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I have told her i do not need PIV, just need to feel like we are close again. So what are her reasons for declining non-PIV sex? I am planning on having a good talk with her this evening about these issues. Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites
ascendotum Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I do not feel she makes the relationship a priority and i fear the next step is separation. I am feeling like she is only with me because she needs me (and not because she wants me). It does seem that way given the info you have posted. From my perspective that's a 2nd rate relationship. This situation you describe would be a deal breaker for lots of guys (and women in the same boat). Its bad enough to not be getting any sex (I assume you are getting affection though...if not thats double bad), but to have her walk around scantily clad is somewhat mean even though she is not doing it deliberately with that intent, but she is being obtuse in dismissing your feelings on the issue. Q - Have you ever teased/threatened or even outright asked her about yoi having an affair or an open relationship? I don't know why she would care if it doesn't change how you behave to her, but I'm sure she would be worried you could easily fall in love with the woman who was having passionate sex with you, so won't take the chance and will say no. Q - How bad is it for you to walk out of this marriage...have you given it considered thought? Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I'm wondering, how do some women think they can stay in a sexless marriage without trying anything and expect their husbands to be ok with it and never cheat? I mean, it's common sense. Link to post Share on other sites
PegNosePete Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 It's very easy to suggest "oh just have an open relationship or find sex elsewhere" but there's really 2 problems with that. First the OP may not WANT to have sex with other women. He loves his wife and wants to have close relations / non-PIV intimacy with HER, not with someone else. Secondly where do you get a willing woman to have sex with a married man whose wife won't satisfy him? What self-respecting woman would willingly enter such a relationship? I know plenty do, but it's surely a highly competitive arena for the guys. It's easy to suggest but a lot harder to achieve in practice (unless you pay!!). 1 Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 It's very easy to suggest "oh just have an open relationship or find sex elsewhere" but there's really 2 problems with that. First the OP may not WANT to have sex with other women. He loves his wife and wants to have close relations / non-PIV intimacy with HER, not with someone else. Secondly where do you get a willing woman to have sex with a married man whose wife won't satisfy him? What self-respecting woman would willingly enter such a relationship? I know plenty do, but it's surely a highly competitive arena for the guys. It's easy to suggest but a lot harder to achieve in practice (unless you pay!!). Agreed, and I'd also argue that a man of integrity wouldn't choose this path. Though difficult and painful, the more honorable solution, assuming every reasonable attempt to save the marriage has failed, is to divorce. Which leads me to the OP's concerns over giving his wife an "ultimatum". I suppose it could be characterized that way, but I look at it like this: if this is an option for the OP if things don't significantly improve, his wife needs to know. If and when the OP gets to the point where he asks his wife for a divorce, it shouldn't come as a surprise. Sometimes we need to get a kick in the ass to fully comprehend how serious a situation is before we're sufficiently motivated to make the necessary changes. Dr. Jam, I hope your conversation with her last night went as well as it could. Even if it didn't, give her a little time to absorb what you told her. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
salparadise Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 ...she has made it clear that she "just has no sexual feelings anymore" yet i have more than ever. ...she said i was being silly, and that it is her house too ...she says "you would feel that way about any naked women" and "just get over it". The real problem I believe (aside from lack of sexual intimacy) is that she is invalidating your needs, dismissing your feelings, and effectively saying she doesn't care if you're not happy or fulfilled in the marriage––that what you want/need doesn't matter. Life if too short to live like this. Sex is important. You are important. People who believe in themselves and value their lives leave marriages that don't work. While it is commendable that you are loyal and have hope, you said that it's been this way for 14 years and only in the first year were you on the same page. I think you should honor and care for yourself––affirm to yourself and to her that your needs are as important as hers. If you still want to give it your best shot, tell her this marriage is broken and not working for you, that it needs to change or there is no point in continuing. If she's open to counseling there is probably a chance (but not a guarantee). But don't settle for occasional dispassionate intercourse as a compromise. If she can't actually get her emotions reengaged you'll end up right back in the same place. The other option is to just accept that you're in a sexless marriage and that your needs aren't going to be met, that you don't really matter. That's not a healthy way to live. Married people take care of each other. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
oldshirt Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 The injury: I have been to almost every single doctors appointment, test, and treatment (excluding the monthly blood work and weekly physio) and there is no question of the pain she is in or the severity of the condition. She does take her medication and is doing what she can to manage the pain. fair enough. I think we can all assume the condition is factual and its not just an excuse she's pulling out of her butt. However what she is doing to still function with her condition is the big question. If I got into an accident and was paralyzed from the neck down and had a permanent lumpy, I'd be getting an implant so my wife could still ride me like Secretariat and I'd start doing bench presses with my tongue so I could get it strong enough to strip the finish off of a Grand Piano to make sure my wife was still getting taken care of. If I were to tell her to "get over it" I would have to assume her method of getting over it would be to leave me behind and find someone else. Infidelity: Yes i suspected this, yet have not found any evidence. I do feel that this is highly unlikely. how much due diligence have you done in investigating this??? Have you gone through her emails, phone, computers, drawers, purse, car???? Have you put any voice activated recorders in her car or places in the house etc where she might carry on a private convo? Just asking her doesn't count. She will just say no and then cover her tracks better. Thoroughly investigating this possibility is just plain prudence and due diligence on your part at this point. If she is getting her needs met elsewhere then all discussions and ultimatums etc will be completely ineffectual. Teasing: I don't feel that she is teasing me on purpose, nor doing these things to push my buttons, rather she just does not see them as baing sexy or teasing. i agree with you on this one. I don't think she is trying to tease or titillated you at all. I think she simply just doesn't care. She sees you as another chick roommate and chicks walk around the house half naked in front of their female roommates all the time. She sees your arousal as your problem and your cross to bare. As it stands it apears that she will either want to change for the sake of the relationship or it is over. I am just having a hard time giving her the ultimatum. VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO MAKE HERE - to make an ultimatum and have any chance of her changing whatsoever, you have to be completely ready, willing and able to carry it out at that very moment. So in other words if you aren't in a position to file on her, sell the house, divide the assets, Pack your bags and walk away and then even be able to get another woman, all your huffing and puffing and ultimatum s are just going to manipulations. If she calls your bluff and doesn't respond then you are completely emasculated and powerless and you'll just be her billowing, provider roommate forever. This is like any other battle which is won or lost long before the combatants ever set foot on the battlefield. Responses in bold above. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Smilecharmer Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I don't have any words of wisdom, just wanted to tell you that I think this is so sad on so many levels. Intimacy is very important and while I understand her nerve damage might impair her to do PIV sex, there are other ways to show your husband you care in the bedroom. I hope you find a solution. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
oldshirt Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 It's very easy to suggest "oh just have an open relationship or find sex elsewhere" but there's really 2 problems with that. First the OP may not WANT to have sex with other women. He loves his wife and wants to have close relations / non-PIV intimacy with HER, not with someone else. Secondly where do you get a willing woman to have sex with a married man whose wife won't satisfy him? What self-respecting woman would willingly enter such a relationship? I know plenty do, but it's surely a highly competitive arena for the guys. It's easy to suggest but a lot harder to achieve in practice (unless you pay!!). I agree. Open marriage is rarely a practical solution in practice. Not many women want to be some married guys pressure-relief valve and even if one did, he would quickly want more and either leave for the OW anyway or if she wasn't on board for going fulltime, he would move on to find someone else that would. Link to post Share on other sites
Author DrJam Posted July 9, 2014 Author Share Posted July 9, 2014 So we did have a talk last night.I explained how her dismissal of my needs and desires made me feel. Her reaction was first of anger "this again" Then of disbelif "it is not that long between sex" She tells me that she has not had any sexual desires for years (her injury goes back 12+years). She claims to have no feelings of desire for anyone, and says she has never even had the urge to masturbate for years. I told her it is very difficult for me to have these needs and urges, knowing she does not have the same feelings, and als to have her near me and naked. At this point i have decided to begin my exit plan. Due to circumstances surrounding her injury it cannot be a quick and easy split. It is important for me that she will be able to care for herself both financially and physiclly. How do you leave someone you love who cannot work, drive, or do most household functions without help? And this is not just her making it up. I have been to 2 different evaluations where she was told "sorry, there is no employmnet you could do, not even a wall-mart greeter". She is currently restricted to lifting no more than 5lbs, she cannot drive as she cannot shoulder-check nor keep both arms on the wheel and the only exercise she can do aside from walking is in the pool. I have a long road ahead to achive this and some big hurdles to pass before it will become a reality. And who knows, maybe things will improve. Although at this point i am no longer holding on to that dream. And will do what is necessary to move on. To the previous post about infidelity, i am certain she is not having an afair...but i am checking. I know for sure there is nothing done through the computer, she does not drive or have her own car, and have found no evidence of her leaving the house without me or her family. There could still be something i have not found though and i a keeping that door open. DrJ Link to post Share on other sites
oldshirt Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Which leads me to the OP's concerns over giving his wife an "ultimatum". I suppose it could be characterized that way, but I look at it like this: if this is an option for the OP if things don't significantly improve, his wife needs to know. If and when the OP gets to the point where he asks his wife for a divorce, it shouldn't come as a surprise. Sometimes we need to get a kick in the ass to fully comprehend how serious a situation is before we're sufficiently motivated to make the necessary changes. . I tend to agree with this on moral/ethical grounds. However we must keep in mind she knows fully well he is frustrated, dissatisfied and unhappy. Talking hasn't worked in 14 years. There's no reason to think the next conversation is going to illicit change even if an ultimatum is verbalized. If there is going to be any impact on her, she is going to have to see ACTIONS. She needs to see him moving on with his life and doing perfectly fine without her BEFORE the final ultimatum is given. She needs to see him - - hitting the gym getting fit, dressing better, grooming better, updating his hair style, eye ware etc becoming more attractive to other women. - getting involved with hobbies and other friends outside of her. - cleaning out the basement and garage etc getting rid of clutter and lightening the load (ie getting ready to pack and leave) - getting her to get a self-supporting fulltime job to support herself, "in case something happens." - organizing finances, clearing up debts, tying up loose ends etc. - having appraisers come to determine property values and how to make the house marketable to sell. - becoming more self-sufficient with single-guy household tasks like grocery shopping, cooking, clothes repair etc. - making intermediate and long term plans for himself that don't include her ie trips, investments, classes, business/career option etc. In other words, she needs to see him preparing to leave her and preparing to live a life without her before she will "get it." 3 Link to post Share on other sites
bubbaganoosh Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 When we have discussed this she said i was being silly, and that it is her house too and she has the right to be comfortable. Granted her nerve condition does wreak havoc with her internal thermostat and makes wearing certain clothing uncomfortable. When i explain how i feel about seeing her naked her she says "you would feel that way about any naked women" and "just get over it". An your reply should be that you have the right to be comfortable too and seeing her walking around bare assed and her knowing full well it turns you on and nothing will come of it is nothing more then mind games and then she puts the cherry on top by saying "deal with it?" Sounds to me that she's telling you that if she has to suffer, then so do you which is nothing but being selfish. Best thing I can tell you is if it was me and she can't or wont be intimate with you in any way, then move her belongings in another bedroom and let her know that while you at home, she covers her ass up and stop your drooling, touching her, giving her any kind of affection and let her know what you feel and if it doesn't work, then let her know that you reached the end of the road. I understand she's in pain and it's not her fault but she knows full well what she's doing to you with the flaunting and teasing and that it not fair and you shouldn't have to put up with it. Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 OP it seems you have sort of a handicapped wife. It will break my heart if / when you leave her but the harsh truth is she has to realize she can't continue her life like this, she has to accept her condition and try to find ways to make her life easier for both her and her husband. So sad 1 Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 OP, I searched your posts for a hint of emotional and/or physical non-sexual affection and intimacy being directed towards you and could find none. If you honestly assess, even in light of your frustration with lack of sex, can you point to signs and words and actions that your wife loves you and demonstrates that love? How about you, for balance? Whichever direction this takes, IMO some focused MC could assist you and she in proceeding through how things go. The obvious canary is her physical condition and lack of sex for you and there are tools to work with those realities and approach them in a different way. A good MC can be your guide to discovering those ways, as well as to facilitate a less painful, for the both of you, ending, if that is your choice. The extent I'd work on this would depend on the answer to the first paragraph. If she demonstrates no love, she's fundamentally abrogated the agreement entered into when marrying so the marriage, for all intents and purposes, is null and void and I'd assertively pursue that within the laws of my jurisdiction. If she does demonstrate love, then I'd pursue, just as assertively, building upon those interactions and look for a compromise both parties can feel positive about. Good luck. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
SummerDreams Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I can somehow sympathize with her. She has such a serious condition (it would kill me if I could not drive or be able to carry things etc, and above all the knowledge that I would never have sex again in my life) that she can't that easily find the strength to understand OP's needs and feel sorry for them - she has herself to feel sorry for. Despite that though she has to aknowledge that her husband for whatever reasons can't go on like this and try to fix things or decide to divorce and find someone who will be more strong willed, I would say. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
bwright42tx Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 I can somehow sympathize with her. She has such a serious condition (it would kill me if I could not drive or be able to carry things etc, and above all the knowledge that I would never have sex again in my life) that she can't that easily find the strength to understand OP's needs and feel sorry for them - she has herself to feel sorry for. Despite that though she has to aknowledge that her husband for whatever reasons can't go on like this and try to fix things or decide to divorce and find someone who will be more strong willed, I would say. Your response made me look at this in a different light. If she knows she can never again have fulfilling, pleasurable sex, then perhaps turning herself asexual is a defense. If she allows herself to be receptive to the OPs advances, even with just HJs and BJs, etc. It might just reinforce to her that she's never going to enjoy sex again, and create a longing that she has trouble dealing with, so she just shuts down sexually. As a thought, have you ever tried sex in the pool? I assume it's a private/personal pool, but maybe its not. But she may be able to make that work in a way that isn't uncomfortable for her, and maybe she can even enjoy. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
beach Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Does she now realize after your talk that you will plan to leave her? How does she feel about that? Does she cook or do laundry? How does she lift things when she does that if she does them? Link to post Share on other sites
Clockwork Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 This is not fair. A woman should not tease her husband like that and not give him anything in return. I mean you can roleplay and save it for later in the night and such, but this is just unfair. I hate to say this, really I do, but this is why a lot of men cheat. You have to have a healthy sexual relationship too, and you certainly don't, but should. If she isn't willing to compromise you might have to figure something else out like finding a person you are happy with. I had an ex-girlfriend like that. She walked around my apartment naked and I was so obsessed with her sexually that I would do anything not to get her upset because she could and would cut things off right away if she was angry. Sometimes it was a week or more and she still teased me to death. I guess she's an ex for a reason, but seriously this isn't healthy for you. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. Lucky Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 OP, I searched your posts for a hint of emotional and/or physical non-sexual affection and intimacy being directed towards you and could find none. If you honestly assess, even in light of your frustration with lack of sex, can you point to signs and words and actions that your wife loves you and demonstrates that love? Have to admit I had the same thought. By her own admission, she doesn't love him physically. Assuming those feelings can be separated in a marriage, nothing indicates she loves him emotionally or spiritually. Couldn't guess which of those two unmet needs would be tougher to bear... Mr. Lucky Link to post Share on other sites
yessy21 Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 This is tough. My best advice is sitting down with her and telling her that you have needs in your relationship that need to be fulfilled and if there is anyway that she compromise. that is what marriage is all about. two people compromising to better their relationship and their lives. Let me ask you a question... are you happy living like this for the rest of your life? A life with no passion and love is so far beneath what you deserve. there might be love but there's no passion. Link to post Share on other sites
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