The WS and his/her view of self

[Spectre]

That seems like a strong statement. I can understand from a BS's perspective that might feel true about the OM/OW. But I'm not sure that just the fact of being an OM/OW means that there's nothing else of value about you. There are a lot of judgments I can make about people whose values are different than my own, things that I think are equal to being an AP, but they're commonplace. If I saw people in this one-dimensional way, I wouldn't respect or like any of you, so I try to see people more in their complexity.

 

I'm sorry, but no. If you knowingly get involved with someone in a relationship you are trash, plain and simple. The person who knowingly gets with someone in a relationship will never ever be anything other then a "down affair". Unless, like I said, there is some threat of physical abuse, etc. Otherwise, no..you lose all credibility once you do that. I'm not saying it makes you evil, but no..you certainly are NEVER better then the one being betrayed.

[notserene]

I am not compeitive and I have no desire to place people on better or worse scales. It is a pandora's box I don't care to open. I don't like the term affaired down and personaly i think it causes more harm than good in people who use it. I didn't care for my husband's MoW because I always thought she was a narc. But we are different people. I see no point to it at the end of the day. It is like Ow obsessing over te BW. It doesn't matter what kind of person she is. It doesn't change who you are, it doesn't make you better or worse and it doesn't change the fact cheating is wrong.

 

I agree with this. I think I get hung up on the concept because being cheated on makes you feel incredibly insecure. I think OWs probably do the same thing because they feel insecure - obviously for different reasons.

[BHsigh]

His W does know. I don't think it's an open marriage. More of a don't ask, don't tell. He's stated previously that his wife doesn't want it smeared in her face. If I remember correctly, it's an affair because the MOW's H doesn't know.

 

Realist, I hope that's okay I spoke for you. Lol Please correct me if I stated anything incorrectly.

 

Ah, then I see no issue on his side at all, I have a friend in the same situation and it works out well for them too, although hers is a medical issue causing very painful sex rather than any validation or emotional needs.

[Sub]

I'm sorry, but no. If you knowingly get involved with someone in a relationship you are trash, plain and simple.

 

Very unnecessary, and not constructive at all. I can understand not enabling someone who gets involved with a MM/MW by feeling bad for them, or any number of other ways to state your opinion. But this sort of thing is bottom of the barrel.

[Spectre]

Very unnecessary, and not constructive at all. I can understand not enabling someone who gets involved with a MM/MW by feeling bad for them, or any number of other ways to state your opinion. But this sort of thing is bottom of the barrel.

 

I'm sorry, but it's the truth. Knowingly getting with someone who is in a relationship, especially if they have kids, etc.? It doesn't get much lower. Also, it's not unnecessary because the topic is about "affairing down" or whatever. It's ALL about judging the one you were cheated on with.

 

So in this case yes I think people have the right to speak freely as long as it isn't too bad. So I stand by what I say: if you knowingly get involved with someone who is married or in a serious relationship then you are automatically worse then the person being betrayed. Unless the only reason the person is being cheated on is because they are physically abusive, etc. and the person is in danger if they tried to leave them. Other then that? No, there is no excuse.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Spectre

[Sub]

We'll just have to disagree on the merits of calling someone "trash", then.

[Fluttershy]

Calling someone trash is saying they should be thrown out and is like saying "go kill yourself you are worthless". Not something I agree with either. It helps no one and just creates more nastiness.

[Realist3]

I take real issue with this statement. Not that we don't seek validation from others, and that you can find it elsewhere, but the whole point of marriage is find to our primary validation through our partner. To not let anyone in else despite the temptation, and the rush of new and exciting validation that's nearly impossible (and unrealistic) for our partners to fill.

 

All of us here know that once you start becoming emotionally connected with another person, you will by default become less connected to your spouse. You will start to value them less than before you met the AP, and simply enjoy shared experiences less than you would have. Your head space is occupied by another person when it should not be. Cheaters let their walls down, and they know it as they are doing it. Anything else is self-deception. If they had walked away at the beginning or put up better 'boundaries' (another commonly used word), then they'd still be focusing on their spouse. Honestly, Realist, you should know better than to put up this kind of self-justifying argument. Cheating is the emotional murder of a union between two people, and that's no understatement.

 

Humans do not exist in a static environment. You nor I are the same people we were 20 years ago. We have lived, learned, and adapted. Our needs and desires change. It would be pretty sad if I stopped growing as an individual at the moment I said "I do." when I was 24 years old.

 

Sure the 'ideal' would be that two immature youngsters would make an absolutely terrific decision that would last a lifetime. That 'ideal' is pretty darn skewed from reality. Just because two people grow at different rates and in different directions does not mean either if them are inherently in the wrong. I don't think anyone would argue with that. No, the issues people have is how that issue is dealt with with the decision to cheat.

 

Your post is dealing with the symptom, not the cause. As the old saying goes, "If ifs and buts were candies and nuts...."

[JourneyLady]

Did your WS "affair down" and what traits in your spouse do you think pushed them in this direction?

 

Yes, and he married her!

She's not as creative, accomplished, or intelligent and given the trend, she's gaining weight and I'm losing... She struggles in school with the same classes I passed with flying colors. Her only advantage is that she's younger -- but he will make her old eventually. I don't think they will ever have the depth of the conversations we had - though I acknowledge maybe he'd rather talk about shallow things like the latest tv series... She's a big flirt too, and I wonder how long it will take for her to tire of him (or vice versa) and one of them to go roaming (again). That and they have to constantly be on guard for interlopers...

 

That said, I doubt he'd ever admit to unhappiness. He generally sticks by nearly all decisions he makes because of his pride. I'm not worried about it; I've moved on. But you asked, so...

 

Trait that moved him in that direction? Money partly - she was a working gal and I wasn't. The other thing, his being spineless with me... He still is.

[Spectre]

We'll just have to disagree on the merits of calling someone "trash", then.

 

Well I guess we will, since I feel when a person behaves in a trashy way they certainly merit the appropriate label.

[Spectre]

Calling someone trash is saying they should be thrown out and is like saying "go kill yourself you are worthless". Not something I agree with either. It helps no one and just creates more nastiness.

 

We aren't trying to really help anyone specifically here. The topic is a very specific one, about "affairing down". It'd be one thing if this person posted that they knowingly got with someone who is married and people came in calling them trash. The very essence of this topic is about judging the person they had the affair with. It might not exactly be nice, but then nice isn't the point of this specific topic. If you feel such a topic doesn't belong here perhaps you would have a case, but since it IS indeed here..

[Realist3]

As long as both parties take responsibility for their part, yes. In some cases "let's focus on the cause" is code for "here's how I'm justified for my A". And unfortunately "the action" creates a whole new set of issues within the relationship.

 

 

Of course both parties play a role.

 

 

I have yet to read any sound reasoning how an affair is justified on any level.

An affair will never solve anything in a marriage. It may provide an impetus for the couple to look for solutions to the underlying issues they face, but that is it.

[Realist3]

I don't disagree that wanting validation is pretty consistent across the human species, perhaps even universal. I think the problem begets from an excessive need for external validation. When a person becomes a liar, takes huge risks with things that they've always held dear, breaks a commitment that was supposed to last a lifetime, severely hurts the one person that has dedicated more to them than anyone else on Earth, and hides it all because they're too ashamed for anyone to know - well, I think that's excessive. No?

 

 

Certainly agree.

[Realist3]

Then why not divorce? Or an open marriage? Why an affair?

 

BTW, I'm not saying that you're wrong for finding someone else, but why not give your wife the same opportunity, along with honesty?

 

 

She does have that opportunity.

 

My wife found out shortly after it started.

 

Why an affair? Because my family unit is very important to me. I sure wasn't going to throw all of that away on some magical idea of finding someone I loved more than my wife. I wasn't miserable by any stretch. And I sure as hell was not going to throw that all away on someone I had only known for a matter of months.

 

I will add this. I would never have gotten involved with anyone who I didn't think had the potential to be worthy of the risk. Meaning, I didn't enter into this lightly.

[OpenBook]

I can only speak for myself, but me and my MW obviously validate each other in ways our spouses are incapable of doing.

 

Incapable? or unwilling? If your spouse was willing to work on validating you, would you give up your A and re-dedicate yourself to your M? If you had your druthers, would you prefer to get your validation from your spouse rather than someone else? And if so, would you be able to clearly and specifically define for her the "validation" behavior that you're seeking?

 

I ask because that is the impression I get from most of the WS posts that I've ever read both here and elsewhere. If I'm reading between their lines correctly, they'd really rather not go through all the trouble of a messy A. They'd love to be able to get their satisfaction at home. And they get pretty specific about the behavior (or lack of) in their spouse that makes them feel invalidated. Or abused. Or neglected. Or whatever it is that's driving them to look elsewhere for love and fulfillment. Is this just a litany of excuses behind which they're hiding a sense of entitlement, or relief from boredom? Or are they genuine in this desire to find fulfillment in their spouse?

[OpenBook]

I see far too many people focused on the action itself instead of the cause of the action. You can treat the symptom all day long, but if you don't treat the cause you are just running around in circles.

 

Good luck.

 

Bingo!! Suitable for framing.

[BetrayedH]

The problem I have with listing an affair as a symptom is that it makes it sound like the wayward has an illness of which they are the victim. There's too much conscious decision-making going on for that analogy; they're not a victim.

[Spectre]

Bingo!! Suitable for framing.

 

Except since there rarely is no just cause for an affair...so of COURSE people focus on the action. I'm sorry, it's one thing to address problems, but if one way you address this is "bang another dude" then yeah, we DEFINITELY need to be focusing on that action. Unless your husband is physically threatening to beat you if you leave him, there is zero excuse.

 

So the thing your quoting sounds like a nice thing to say, but it also kind of sounds like something a cheater would say to try to somehow deflect from the fact they cheated.

 

You definitely need to focus on why this person felt the right way to solve these problems was sex with other people. That is a BIG no no, not some minor issue taking away attention from a more pressing matter.

[Raena]

I'm sorry, but it's the truth. Knowingly getting with someone who is in a relationship, especially if they have kids, etc.? It doesn't get much lower. Also, it's not unnecessary because the topic is about "affairing down" or whatever. It's ALL about judging the one you were cheated on with.

 

So in this case yes I think people have the right to speak freely as long as it isn't too bad. So I stand by what I say: if you knowingly get involved with someone who is married or in a serious relationship then you are automatically worse then the person being betrayed. Unless the only reason the person is being cheated on is because they are physically abusive, etc. and the person is in danger if they tried to leave them. Other then that? No, there is no excuse.

 

What do you think of the case where a man and a woman are married but living separately? If they are living separately and both are dating other people but haven't filed the divorce papers, is it still cheating or having an affair? I'm just curious.

[Spectre]

What do you think of the case where a man and a woman are married but living separately? If they are living separately and both are dating other people but haven't filed the divorce papers, is it still cheating or having an affair? I'm just curious.

 

If you separated and were clear it was not a separation meant to try to save the marriage and said it is okay to date other people? Then no, not cheating. If you separated with the intention of working on your marriage, it is cheating. If you separated and didn't bother to really define these things, then it is cheating, because it surely isn't difficult to define them, and nobody needs sex so badly they can't wait until they set a clear definition with their spouse on what the separation means. If you need to boink someone else that badly before doing that, there is a problem, and a big one at that.

[BHsigh]

What do you think of the case where a man and a woman are married but living separately? If they are living separately and both are dating other people but haven't filed the divorce papers, is it still cheating or having an affair? I'm just curious.

 

It's cheating unless they agreed to date other people. It also depends on whether it's a separation prior to the divorce going through. Some states require a separation of a certain length before a divorce is granted, a relationship during that isn't cheating, although some at fault states will still consider it an affair.

[BHsigh]

She does have that opportunity.

 

My wife found out shortly after it started.

 

Why an affair? Because my family unit is very important to me. I sure wasn't going to throw all of that away on some magical idea of finding someone I loved more than my wife. I wasn't miserable by any stretch. And I sure as hell was not going to throw that all away on someone I had only known for a matter of months.

 

I will add this. I would never have gotten involved with anyone who I didn't think had the potential to be worthy of the risk. Meaning, I didn't enter into this lightly.

 

Ah, that's what violet told me earlier too, I have no issues with that at all, it's not even really an affair on your part anymore.

 

This thread isn't about AP's so I have no comment about your OW.

[HermioneG]

Except since there rarely is no just cause for an affair...so of COURSE people focus on the action. I'm sorry, it's one thing to address problems, but if one way you address this is "bang another dude" then yeah, we DEFINITELY need to be focusing on that action. Unless your husband is physically threatening to beat you if you leave him, there is zero excuse.

 

So the thing your quoting sounds like a nice thing to say, but it also kind of sounds like something a cheater would say to try to somehow deflect from the fact they cheated.

 

You definitely need to focus on why this person felt the right way to solve these problems was sex with other people. That is a BIG no no, not some minor issue taking away attention from a more pressing matter.

 

Yup.

 

An affair choice is a personal problem, not a marital issue. Dragging the betrayed spouse in and claiming they were part of it? Too close to the whole " he/she was asking for it" line used to justify harming another person. You would not say that to someone being bullied, or someone who had just been shot. Why on earth do some waywards think they get to blame the person they harmed for their craptastic choices?

 

Nah. Not buying it. And a wayward/other who calls an affair a symptom, or looks anywhere other than themselves for the answers to why they are capable of such things? Has a long way to go.

[janedoe67]

Yup.

 

An affair choice is a personal problem, not a marital issue. Dragging the betrayed spouse in and claiming they were part of it? Too close to the whole " he/she was asking for it" line used to justify harming another person. You would not say that to someone being bullied, or someone who had just been shot. Why on earth do some waywards think they get to blame the person they harmed for their craptastic choices?

 

Nah. Not buying it. And a wayward/other who calls an affair a symptom, or looks anywhere other than themselves for the answers to why they are capable of such things? Has a long way to go.

 

I absolutely agree with this. The A is a separate issue from the marital problems. The martial problems CAN (yeah, they can) play a part in someone's VULNERBILITY, but the A choice is 100% on the cheater.

 

The problem arises when someone "says" they want to reconcile, but they believe that the A means they are exempt from ever looking at their part of the marital issues.

 

And regarding trash. I will state I was very trashy during my A, so the label while it is happening doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when someone is no longer wayward, but the label sticks. When someone has truly repented, changed, and is heading firmly in the right direction, continuing to see them as trash says more about the seer's vision than the former wayward's character.

[compulsivedancer]

Validation? I have heard this word so much since d-day. I often wonder if it's not a bit like thirst. You can satisfy it with a good drink ...until next time. ..And then the time after that.... it must be hard to vAlidate someone with a big thirst.

 

Yes. This is why an affair lasts and you keep going back for more. And why so many changes are necessary for the WS post-A. S/he has to address this need so that the "thirst" doesn't get the better of them again.