The WS and his/her view of self

[Appreciate]

I'm just curious if you all used these terms (validation, ego feed, etc.) with your spouse shortly after D-Day, or if they cam into usage later in the R or D process. And how did your WS react to these terms, the whole perspective that BS's have? Did the ones who left for their AP ever admit to this kind of thinking?

[Appreciate]

And doesn't what we're discussing just amount to "selfishness"? Is that too frank a word to use? Seems like a lot understanding and thought is given to the WS's inner turmoil. Almost seems like coddling at some point.

[BHsigh]

I'm just curious if you all used these terms (validation, ego feed, etc.) with your spouse shortly after D-Day, or if they cam into usage later in the R or D process. And how did your WS react to these terms, the whole perspective that BS's have? Did the ones who left for their AP ever admit to this kind of thinking?

 

My wife herself said that it was for attention, for her ego. That was all that she was after in the very begining, but of course she got caught up and went much further than that.

[Steadfast]

I don't want to make too much of the "affair down" concept because I feel like it's a sop to my self-esteem, but when my husband cheated on me he chose someone who is much less accomplished than I am in every way. She is an unemployed recovering drug addict and I am a professional. I don't make tons of money because I work for a nonprofit organization, but I am well regarded by my peers. My husband has a good job but he is not as well educated as I am.

 

I am guessing that he chose this person because he felt superior to her and because she was available...it made him feel "validated" because in her eyes he was a "catch." (snip)I worry about what kind of person he is...

 

He's probably wondering the same thing about you.

 

I can't justify cheating for any reason and consider what you've written out of respect for your pain, but snobs aren't very sexy notserene. Those who assume education and position demand success and respect are generally unliked by those who simply measure a person by their character.

 

Those in a troubled marriage wage two battles. Few believe the battle within is the most important, but it is. Spoken from experience.

[notserene]

He's probably wondering the same thing about you.

 

I can't justify cheating for any reason and consider what you've written out of respect for your pain, but snobs aren't very sexy notserene. Those who assume education and position demand success and respect are generally unliked by those who simply measure a person by their character.

 

Those in a troubled marriage wage two battles. Few believe the battle within is the most important, but it is. Spoken from experience.

 

 

Whatever. I didn't cheat.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

It is most definitely for the attention and validation. Therapy taught me that. I wish I had known that about myself years ago. I knew something was wrong because of my childhood, but no one ever suggested I might need help - I also didn't portray myself as one that needed help. I was arrogant, prideful and self assured. These were the attributes that caused me to fall. But inside of that arrogance and pride was a scared little girl that was being protected by all of that - or at least that was what I thought.

 

Anyway - to topic - affaired down? My xmom was very similar to my husband, just younger. There were a few differences in passions or hobbies which did start out as the basis of our attraction to each other, but in reality my husband and xap are both educated, have good jobs, are funny and smart, etc. But life got in the way - my husband and I were so busy with jobs, kids, etc. That we forgot about us. I am certain much of it was the same for my xap. His wife and kids and jobs family issues, etc. Then we spent a great deal of time together because of the positions we held and a friendship formed. It was over time they the boundaries started to become thin and weak - our fault entirely.

 

I don't know what his BS would say now about me, but I know there was a time she didn't think that he affaired down. We are different. I am tall, she is short. I am athletic. She is not. I am the life of the party. She is quiet. She got to the point she didn't want to do things with her husband he was interested in doing - same for mine. I would ask him to go out to clubs to listen to bands (just an example) and he wasn't interested. What I am saying is, it is okay to have different interests but at some point you have to try to be interested in what your spouse is interested in or there is no longer common ground between the two of you. From what I know of xmom and his wife, the last I saw ( and it has been a long time), it looked as if she was bending and doing some of the things he was interested in and he for her. My husband is doing the same for me and it is helping a great deal. It's too bad we didn't figure all of that out before we set off a nuclear bomb.

 

As far as my husbands xap? We are somewhat similar - different hair color - but again she was there to listen to my husband when we were in the deepest, darkest months right after dday - I was emotionally incapable of working on the marriage because I needed to figure out the WHY first. She was emotionally available to him - again validation, attention, etc.

 

We can talk and talk about what the AP had that we didn't, but in the end it's about some very broken people. This is, in my experience, what leads to affairs or any abnormal behavior.

Edited April 17, 2014 by lilmisscantbewrong

[notserene]

Don't think that I'm unaware that I may have made my husband feel "less" about himself under the circumstances we were facing. It's boring to go into all of them here, so I won't. I don't think that this is an excuse for him to go look elsewhere because I made him feel bad. He could have talked to me about this.

 

Despite what some posters say I'm aware that the "rationale" (if you want to call it that) behind cheating doesn't involve making some sort of comparison between the spouse and the AP. It is about the person who decides to cheat and what is going on in their head at the time.

[Realist3]

I'm just curious if you all used these terms (validation, ego feed, etc.) with your spouse shortly after D-Day, or if they cam into usage later in the R or D process. And how did your WS react to these terms, the whole perspective that BS's have? Did the ones who left for their AP ever admit to this kind of thinking?

 

These terms are often used by BS's as though they are some four letter word. They aren't. Validation has perhaps the most important psychological impact that we has humans experience. It is part of who we are. We seek it out. There is nothing wrong with taking pleasure from validation. The reason anyone gets married in the first place is because their partner meets at least a minimum level for their criteria of validation.

 

I can only speak for myself, but me and my MW obviously validate each other in ways our spouses are incapable of doing.

[Furious]

Validation is important. The thing with validation in an affair context is a blurred dynamic. Secure people don't seek out external validation without merit.

 

It's now common that kids on a sports team get a participant trophy. Even if the kid never got a home run during the entire season. Everyone is special regardless of their performance.:D:D

[Realist3]

 

Whatever. I didn't cheat.

 

He wasn't saying you cheated. He is saying that the criteria you use to determine a persons worth can be/is offputting to people, and likely your husband.

 

 

 

Don't think that I'm unaware that I may have made my husband feel "less" about himself under the circumstances we were facing. It's boring to go into all of them here, so I won't. I don't think that this is an excuse for him to go look elsewhere because I made him feel bad. He could have talked to me about this.

 

It obviously was for him. Whatever excuse/reason a person uses to explain their actions is valid to them. You can't determine that. Being belittled and emasculated may not mean much to you, but it obviously meant something to him.

 

Just a guess, but I doubt your behavior towards him probably wasn't something of a short term nature. It has likely been building for years. Talking to you about something so entrenched within the relationship dynamic is pretty much pointless in his view. "Hey, Sugar plum, I really don't like the way you make me feel like less of a man." Not gonna happen.

 

What did happen is that he found the easiest path to having his needs met. In his view that was not with you

 

With that said it does not excuse what he did, but it is certainly a valid excuse.

 

 

 

 

 

It is about the person who decides to cheat and what is going on in their head at the time.

 

Good.

[notserene]

 

Just a guess, but I doubt your behavior towards him probably wasn't something of a short term nature. It has likely been building for years. Talking to you about something so entrenched within the relationship dynamic is pretty much pointless in his view. "Hey, Sugar plum, I really don't like the way you make me feel like less of a man." Not gonna happen.

 

What did happen is that he found the easiest path to having his needs met. In his view that was not with you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But...he's back and we're trying to reconcile. He has had no contact with the OW, transparency, blah blah blah. (I am aware that he could have gone further underground, but based on what I saw when things ended, it seems unlikely. Like most people who have been cheated on my radar is on high alert right now.)

 

If I really make him feel that terrible, why is he back? I know...family, stability, familiarity, and so on. If he didn't want to stay he could have gone with her.

 

Obviously there are some things we need to work on.

[violet1]

It's strange to me, but my H has never asked me info about my exMM. He's know the exMM is married and I met him online, but that's it. He's never asked any questions. I think my H was already feeling low about himself since before the affair so he didn't want to if it was an affair up or affair down. I don't think I affaired up or down, I just had an affair. The two men are so different, I can't compare the two. I can say H is the better man though. Our M was in bad shape. I chose to cheat, my H didn't. He had plenty of opportunities to as well.

[Realist3]

But...he's back and we're trying to reconcile. He has had no contact with the OW, transparency, blah blah blah. (I am aware that he could have gone further underground, but based on what I saw when things ended, it seems unlikely. Like most people who have been cheated on my radar is on high alert right now.)

 

Good for both of you. He wants to try.

 

If I really make him feel that terrible, why is he back? I know...family, stability, familiarity, and so on. If he didn't want to stay he could have gone with her.

 

Don't discount those things you listed. They are very important in the overall picture, and a large part of why he is trying to make a go of it.

 

In simple terms, he sees the pros of being with you outweighing the pros of being with her, at least at this time.

 

Obviously there are some things we need to work on.

 

Yes, you do. "Houston, we have a problem!" I see far too many people focused on the action itself instead of the cause of the action. You can treat the symptom all day long, but if you don't treat the cause you are just running around in circles.

 

Good luck.

[BHsigh]

Good for both of you. He wants to try.

 

 

 

Don't discount those things you listed. They are very important in the overall picture, and a large part of why he is trying to make a go of it.

 

In simple terms, he sees the pros of being with you outweighing the pros of being with her, at least at this time.

 

 

 

Yes, you do. "Houston, we have a problem!" I see far too many people focused on the action itself instead of the cause of the action. You can treat the symptom all day long, but if you don't treat the cause you are just running around in circles.

 

Good luck.

 

If an affair is just a symptom and people need to focus on the cause of that symptom, why are you having an affair rather than working on the cause?

Edited April 17, 2014 by BHsigh
Said the same thing in the last sentence as the first, grammar.

[Appreciate]

These terms are often used by BS's as though they are some four letter word. They aren't. Validation has perhaps the most important psychological impact that we has humans experience. It is part of who we are. We seek it out. There is nothing wrong with taking pleasure from validation. The reason anyone gets married in the first place is because their partner meets at least a minimum level for their criteria of validation.

 

I can only speak for myself, but me and my MW obviously validate each other in ways our spouses are incapable of doing.

 

I take real issue with this statement. Not that we don't seek validation from others, and that you can find it elsewhere, but the whole point of marriage is find to our primary validation through our partner. To not let anyone in else despite the temptation, and the rush of new and exciting validation that's nearly impossible (and unrealistic) for our partners to fill.

 

All of us here know that once you start becoming emotionally connected with another person, you will by default become less connected to your spouse. You will start to value them less than before you met the AP, and simply enjoy shared experiences less than you would have. Your head space is occupied by another person when it should not be. Cheaters let their walls down, and they know it as they are doing it. Anything else is self-deception. If they had walked away at the beginning or put up better 'boundaries' (another commonly used word), then they'd still be focusing on their spouse. Honestly, Realist, you should know better than to put up this kind of self-justifying argument. Cheating is the emotional murder of a union between two people, and that's no understatement.

[BHsigh]

 

Yes, you do. "Houston, we have a problem!" I see far too many people focused on the action itself instead of the cause of the action. You can treat the symptom all day long, but if you don't treat the cause you are just running around in circles.

 

Good luck.

 

And calling an affair a symptom is off base too, that's merely a justification.

 

Now if you said that an affair was a reaction to a symptom, then you would be correct. The symptoms that you are talking about and misplacing with an affair, are all of the things mentioned above (and more of course). Lack of validation, loneliness, the want of more sex etc. Those are the true symptoms, having an affair is your reaction to trying to get rid of those symptoms.

 

So truly, an affair is an issue all on its own, working on the state of the marriage itself will not always fully repair the damage from the affair on it's own, most people need a lot of personal work to get over the damage.

[Sub]

Yes, you do. "Houston, we have a problem!" I see far too many people focused on the action itself instead of the cause of the action. You can treat the symptom all day long, but if you don't treat the cause you are just running around in circles.

 

As long as both parties take responsibility for their part, yes. In some cases "let's focus on the cause" is code for "here's how I'm justified for my A". And unfortunately "the action" creates a whole new set of issues within the relationship.

[BHsigh]

And calling an affair a symptom is off base too, that's merely a justification.

 

Now if you said that an affair was a reaction to a symptom, then you would be correct. The symptoms that you are talking about and misplacing with an affair, are all of the things mentioned above (and more of course). Lack of validation, loneliness, the want of more sex etc. Those are the true symptoms, having an affair is your reaction to trying to get rid of those symptoms.

 

So truly, an affair is an issue all on its own, working on the state of the marriage itself will not always fully repair the damage from the affair on it's own, most people need a lot of personal work to get over the damage.

 

I meant to add this, having an affair was your choice, you could have worked harder on your marriage, talked to your spouse, attended marriage counceling, or chosen divorce if nothing worked (among other things). Having an affair wasn't a symptom that you were stuck with, it wasn't out of your control.

[Realist3]

If an affair is just a symptom and people need to focus on the cause of that symptom, why are you having an affair rather than working on the cause?

 

 

Because the cause is not fixable in my case. Neither of us are going to snap our fingers and re-invent ourselves. I place no fault on my wife. I just happened to come across someone whom I am more compatible with on a level I had not previously experienced.

[BHsigh]

Because the cause is not fixable in my case. Neither of us are going to snap our fingers and re-invent ourselves. I place no fault on my wife. I just happened to come across someone whom I am more compatible with on a level I had not previously experienced.

 

Then why not divorce? Or an open marriage? Why an affair?

 

BTW, I'm not saying that you're wrong for finding someone else, but why not give your wife the same opportunity, along with honesty?

Edited April 17, 2014 by BHsigh

[BetrayedH]

These terms are often used by BS's as though they are some four letter word. They aren't. Validation has perhaps the most important psychological impact that we has humans experience. It is part of who we are. We seek it out. There is nothing wrong with taking pleasure from validation. The reason anyone gets married in the first place is because their partner meets at least a minimum level for their criteria of validation.

 

I can only speak for myself, but me and my MW obviously validate each other in ways our spouses are incapable of doing.

 

I don't disagree that wanting validation is pretty consistent across the human species, perhaps even universal. I think the problem begets from an excessive need for external validation. When a person becomes a liar, takes huge risks with things that they've always held dear, breaks a commitment that was supposed to last a lifetime, severely hurts the one person that has dedicated more to them than anyone else on Earth, and hides it all because they're too ashamed for anyone to know - well, I think that's excessive. No?

[violet1]

Then why not divorce? Or an open marriage? Why an affair?

 

BTW, I'm not saying that you're wrong for finding someone else, but why not give your wife the same opportunity, along with honesty?

His W does know. I don't think it's an open marriage. More of a don't ask, don't tell. He's stated previously that his wife doesn't want it smeared in her face. If I remember correctly, it's an affair because the MOW's H doesn't know.

 

Realist, I hope that's okay I spoke for you. Lol Please correct me if I stated anything incorrectly.

[Fluttershy]

I am not compeitive and I have no desire to place people on better or worse scales. It is a pandora's box I don't care to open. I don't like the term affaired down and personaly i think it causes more harm than good in people who use it. I didn't care for my husband's MoW because I always thought she was a narc. But we are different people. I see no point to it at the end of the day. It is like Ow obsessing over te BW. It doesn't matter what kind of person she is. It doesn't change who you are, it doesn't make you better or worse and it doesn't change the fact cheating is wrong.

[violet1]

I do partially agree with what Realist is saying. An affair can be a symptom not the cause. However, having an affair is not the solution to your marital problems. My H said it best, "Yes, we had problems but cheating made it worse." He suspected it for awhile and could feel me pulling away. If anything, having an affair proves the WS has poor coping skills.

[waterwoman]

Validation? I have heard this word so much since d-day. I often wonder if it's not a bit like thirst. You can satisfy it with a good drink ...until next time. ..And then the time after that.... it must be hard to vAlidate someone with a big thirst.