Moral high ground?

[Hope Shimmers]

Damn, I posted the War and Peace of replies and it went pooft!

I remember the poster who was having an A while caring for a sick partner. I also remember some of the responses were pretty judgemental.

 

So, this caught my interest:

I'm interested in feedback as to whether infidelity is a study on moral high ground and hypocrisy.

 

I had, up until last month a very good friend who had an A for over 15 years, he told all and sundry that his wife had a terminal illness, that he was caring for her, that he would be with my friend eventually. I have no words for the idea that she was waiting for someone to die before she could be with the man she loved. I saw how she would worry when his wife was ill, would read up on her illness to offer advice to the MM. I saw them together and thought how they made a great couple, then I noticed he was never with her in their county, they would meet in away from it all places and he was never, ever there when it mattered. The excuses he made, over and over again, the timelines he made which changed from week to week. He let her down when her grandson died, when her father died, when she nearly died, each time he found a reason to stay away and each time she believed him.

 

My friend had become used to being put on hold because of the BS illness, many thought he was selfless to stay when he so clearly loved my friend. I have never, ever understood A's, I could and would never, ever knowingly and willingly share the person I love, integrity and what is right aside, that is the one thing that wouldn't work for me. I don't give me to someone who I know is giving a part of themselves to someone else. My friend knew my feelings as we had numerous discussions about it, I would never be an excuse for them both nor would I be with them socially. I squared that away as my line in the sand, how to remain friends with this wonderful person while disapproving of her choice to have an A? My friend had wonderful qualities which defined her, the A did not.

 

When he just went from her life without a goodbye to live the life he and she had planned with his wife, who had no terminal illness, my friend looked back at all those years of her loving him, supporting him, planning and waiting for him and realised it had all been a huge elaborate lie. Worse, for her, she felt she had lost credibility as a good person, that who she had thought she was and what she was most proud of, namely her integrity, was in ashes. I disagreed with her, rattled off the thousand and one things she had achieved and done, yet it was her finally looking at the last 15 years without being clouded by her love goggles, as she called them, that she felt less than the person she had always thought she was.

 

I watched a beautiful, lovely, supportive friend vanish. Was it hypocritical for me to stand by her? maybe. I value my integrity, who doesn't? Who doesn't want to be thought of as a good person, if integrity is what we value how can any of us square away the things we know are wrong? To walk away would have compromised my love for my friend, to have left her when she needed me most would have made me question my morality. I have seen my H tear himself apart with his guilt and regret and his feeling he has let not only us down, but himself. To try and help someone rebuild a lifetime of how they measure their worth and find themselves lacking is difficult and heart breaking. I would say that I have known and loved my H for over 28 years, during which he has been the bravest, most wonderful person I know, his A was 8 months, does that cancel out all those years? I would say not. It does not define him, not in my eyes.

 

After the A, when I had the truth of it all, I mentally balanced all we had, still had, all the years we still had to either live apart or stay and reconcile and the loss of him far tipped the balance in staying than the A. I question if he hadn't confessed before I found out, if he had loved, if the circumstances that led up to the A had been different, would I have stayed? would I have stayed if we were just into our relationship? the answer is probably not. I don't know where my morality is in all that or my hypocrisy. I think I make my own rules, the things I can look myself in the mirror each day and feel good about give me the rules I live by. I know I couldn't have an A, people say never say never, but, I know me, I couldn't and wouldn't knowingly share the person I love. That is my rule for me, my morality. Living with someone and being friends with someone who has crossed my line is balanced by what they are at their core.

 

I don't understand A's, I never have and never will. I don't understand the being OK with knowingly hurting another. I know that in an A at least two people will be hurt, yet those same two people are invariably the one's at loggerheads when the A is over. Makes no sense, there always seems to be a tit for tat blaming going on when the blame lies with choices. people choose to step outside their marriage, people choose to enable that and people choose to reconcile knowing all that. I think there is a level of hypocrisy in all of it. But, the morality of it, I live by my rule of never knowingly do harm to another. To compromise that, for me and still look myself in the mirror and be OK with me would be hypocritical if I made excuses for behaviour I could change, but chose not to.

 

My friend took her life last month, her eulogies spoke about what a wonderful woman she was, how she had selflessly worked to improve the lives of women the world over in the field of Human Rights, what a wonderful mother and friend she was. I couldn't agree more, her 67 years of life were not defined by her being an OW, the MM was nowhere to be seen. it said far more about him than anything else.

 

Wow. I wish that guy were in front of me right now so I could punch him in the face. And kick him somewhere else.

 

What excuses did he give for 15 years of lies, do you know? How long between when he went back to his W and she took her life? Was she extremely depressed during that time?

[Hope Shimmers]

Furious,

 

Crunch, crunch, ping ! Another can of worms being opened - I think I'll stay out of this one.

 

Oh come on Arieswoman... join the party

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't fault the OM/OW for being upset about being lied to, it's natural to expect someone that you're close to to be honest with you. What upsets me is when they think that they are in the same shoes as the BS, or that they aren't responsible for the BS's pain at all, just because they didn't make the marriage vows, as if vows are the only reason to not take part in hurting someone, or helping to destroy someone's life.

 

The getaway driver is just as guilty as the bank robber.

 

Hey BHsigh,

 

I'm speaking for myself here but I suspect others in my position might agree with me. I never thought I was in the same shoes as the BS (although in my case, she didn't really get hurt). But just in general terms, I don't feel that the OW is free of responsibility for the A and hurting the BS. But, at least in my case, I don't think I could have hurt any more unless I ended up dead (which I almost did), so in that way it hurt when some BSs tried to diminish that pain (whether I deserved it or not) by saying it was nothing like what the BS goes through.

 

Does that make sense? (I've been doing my taxes so my brain is a bit twisted at the moment)

[Summer Breeze]

I'm old and wise enough to know to never take the moral high ground in anything. My situation is my situation and my choices are my choices. It's not my job to seriously judge someone else and it's not my nature to care when someone else judges me.

[BHsigh]

Hey BHsigh,

 

I'm speaking for myself here but I suspect others in my position might agree with me. I never thought I was in the same shoes as the BS (although in my case, she didn't really get hurt). But just in general terms, I don't feel that the OW is free of responsibility for the A and hurting the BS. But, at least in my case, I don't think I could have hurt any more unless I ended up dead (which I almost did), so in that way it hurt when some BSs tried to diminish that pain (whether I deserved it or not) by saying it was nothing like what the BS goes through.

 

Does that make sense? (I've been doing my taxes so my brain is a bit twisted at the moment)

 

Hi Hope,

 

You're in the group of the AP's that I truly feel sorry for, and I feel that you are in the same shoes as the BS, you're stuck in the middle ground between the two. So I understand the difference, and I was mainly talking about the fully aware AP's.

[Furious]

Everyone, at some points in their lives struggle with staying true to their own core values. It's fluid, and challenging, specially when lines get blurred and the benefit ratio outweighs the cost ratio. Perspective can be bent, and it's tempting to rationalize, to take something or do something you would not want to be done to you.

 

 

An example

 

Our friend is cheating....what do i do? Do i say something, is silence and it's none of my business the answer?

 

Are we afraid we'd be considered judgemental. How does this reflect my own core values.

 

Do I tell my husband my friend is cheating, maybe I shouldn't tell him because he may not want me to remain friends with her?

 

How would I feel if my husbands friends cheated but he never told me?

 

Maybe, my friend is having a good time, maybe I'll hang out with her more, she tells me it's not so wrong, life is too short?

 

Maybe, I won't tell my husband, he doesn't need to know?

 

 

What should I do?

 

..........

 

 

Life and relationships and being true to yourself but not hurting others in the way.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Furious

[seren]

Hope, he gave no explanations, he retired from his full time job, he and my friend met through their Union work. I think that he had spent so long promising her that when he retired they would be together, that he would leave his wife regardless, that as the time came nearer he realised his two worlds were about to collide. His indifference toward the end said to me that he never had any intention of leaving, I think he cared for my friend when he was with her, but once she was out of sight, he never gave her a thought, how could he when he wasn't around when she really needed him. Retirement would have meant he had to make an effort to see her and also she was making plans, looking at houses had planned her whole life around his imaginary timescale, it was getting too close for comfort and, that is why he think he behaved the way he did.

 

They were apart for almost 12 months when she ended her life, she had been to stay with me for a while and we thought all was well, but you never know. I notified him of her death and funeral after checking with her family that he would be welcome. They had known him for 15 yrs also and he was a part of their lives, His betrayal wasn't just my friend but them also. Just as he had done at numerous family events, a seat was there amongst close family and remained empty. So, so sad.

[veritas lux mea]

I think that my husband had the moral high ground over me during my affair but we are equel again. I don't believe that moral high ground is lost forever. I believe AP and WS can regain their own personal moral high ground again. And I believe BS can lose their moral high ground. And I could care less if someone besides my husband feels I will forever be a cheater. If my husband felt that way then our marriage would be over because as much as I love him I will not crawl on my belly for the rest of my life and remain below him in his eyes. Because all that would do is make me feel worthless. It would not "atone" for what I did.

[Furious]

I think that my husband had the moral high ground over me during my affair but we are equel again. I don't believe that moral high ground is lost forever. I believe AP and WS can regain their own personal moral high ground again. And I believe BS can lose their moral high ground. And I could care less if someone besides my husband feels I will forever be a cheater. If my husband felt that way then our marriage would be over because as much as I love him I will not crawl on my belly for the rest of my life and remain below him in his eyes. Because all that would do is make me feel worthless. It would not "atone" for what I did.

 

I agree with you. You and yiur husband have come a long way. You're not the same person while in your affair. You've grown and made great change in being the woman you are now.

 

I also agree that a Betrayed spouse does not own the higher ground for all eternity. Many betrayed spouses, which I was suprised to learn, go on to be the OW/OW. That's the height of hypocrisy.

[Waverly]

There was nothing moral in my choice to have an affair. It hurt me, my AP, and whether they know it or not, both of our spouses and families. It would be absurd to try and defend it.

 

But -- this doesn't mean that I am an "immoral" person, nor am I condemned to make immoral choices for the rest of my life.

[Realist3]

I'm astounded by the hypocrisy that exists in regard to infidelity.

 

In my situation, my husband had joined a new company and it required more business travel. It was a huge sacrifice on my part because as a mother, but also the owner if my own company I was going to have to take on more responsibility.

 

I was lonely, overworked, but I knew it was something temporary, as my husband was in place to eventually secure a promotion that was based in our city's head office.

 

What a cliche, a married man on business travel ends up cheating.

 

To make a long story short, a few months after d-day my husband confesses that many of the men in his circle of work colleagues and the environment at this company is filled with cheating husbands. It was, accepted and endorsed.

 

Birds of a feather stick together......

 

 

Another thing that bothers me in regard to the moral high ground are OW/OM, who are offended by being lied to or judge someone else's character. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

 

I'm interested in feedback as to whether infidelity is a study on moral high ground and hypocrisy.

 

I don't see where you established the foundation for the argument of hypocrisy or the moral high ground and how they should be compared.

[Furious]

I don't see where you established the foundation for the argument of hypocrisy or the moral high ground and how they should be compared.

 

 

Well, that's your prerogative. If you don't get it, you can refrain from participating in this thread.

[Realist3]

I'm just trying to understand your point better. You are trying to make the case that because someone is perhaps 'doing wrong' they forego their rights to being indignant of someone doing wrong to them. Those two have no correlation.

[Furious]

I'm just trying to understand your point better. You are trying to make the case that because someone is perhaps 'doing wrong' they forego their rights to being indignant of someone doing wrong to them. Those two have no correlation.

 

Never said that...

[veritas lux mea]

Well, that's your prerogative. If you don't get it, you can refrain from participating in this thread.

 

I actually dont's see the hypocrasy either diretly in the first part. Bigotry. But I do get the idea of moral high ground so went with that.

[Realist3]

Never said that...

 

Yes, you did.

 

Another thing that bothers me in regard to the moral high ground are OW/OM, who are offended by being lied to or judge someone else's character. It's the pot calling the kettle black.

[veritas lux mea]

I'm just trying to understand your point better. You are trying to make the case that because someone is perhaps 'doing wrong' they forego their rights to being indignant of someone doing wrong to them. Those two have no correlation.

 

Actually that is hypocrisy. Like someone being upset their partner is having and affair while having an affair themselves. I don't think an OW holds moral ground over their married person either. Sure they may get lied to but unless it is a case of where the MP actually says they are seperated or unattatched they really do lose some of their steam in being indignant.

[Furious]

I'm just trying to understand your point better. You are trying to make the case that because someone is perhaps 'doing wrong' they forego their rights to being indignant of someone doing wrong to them. Those two have no correlation.

 

I never said, if someone is doing wrong they forego their rights to being indignant of someone doing wrong to them.

 

The hypocrisy, is the issue.

[Realist3]

Actually that is hypocrisy. Like someone being upset their partner is having and affair while having an affair themselves. I don't think an OW holds moral ground over their married person either. Sure they may get lied to but unless it is a case of where the MP actually says they are seperated or unattatched they really do lose some of their steam in being indignant.

 

 

That is a completely different scenario. In these cases the two positions are connected by a third party. Their issues are with the third party, not each other. Neither of them promised each other anything.

 

On the second part you are placing degrees on the level of indignation one can express by being wronged. "If it is this, okay. If it is that, no."

 

This is only anecdotal, but it appears to me that about 90% of OW/OM are lied to heavily to get them involved. The list of lines/lies are endless.

 

Think about it for a minute. How many single women do you know that would say, "I think I'm going to have a two year affair with a MM just for the heck of it." That rarely happens.

[Realist3]

I never said, if someone is doing wrong they forego their rights to being indignant of someone doing wrong to them.

 

The hypocrisy, is the issue.

 

 

Where is the hypocrisy?

[Furious]

Where is the hypocrisy?

 

Oh....Realist, you're smarter than this. Good try.:laugh:

[Realist3]

Oh....Realist, you're smarter than this. Good try.:laugh:

 

 

 

Evidently, not smart enough.

[Sub]

Think about it for a minute. How many single women do you know that would say, "I think I'm going to have a two year affair with a MM just for the heck of it." That rarely happens.

 

This is a fair point. (Although I think your % of OW/OM who are heavily lied to to get them involved is a stretch.) I would say, however, that while an AP can't foresee how deep a relationship with a MM/MW can get over time, it is fair to expect them to use some common sense and logic in regards to the matter. If a person "plays along" with the flirtations of a willing MM/MW - assuming they're a reasonably intelligent person - it's their responsibility to be aware of the possible scenarios and endgames that can unfold if they decide to do so. And not be surprised when it's gotten to a point of no return.

[Hope Shimmers]

Hope, he gave no explanations, he retired from his full time job, he and my friend met through their Union work. I think that he had spent so long promising her that when he retired they would be together, that he would leave his wife regardless, that as the time came nearer he realised his two worlds were about to collide. His indifference toward the end said to me that he never had any intention of leaving, I think he cared for my friend when he was with her, but once she was out of sight, he never gave her a thought, how could he when he wasn't around when she really needed him. Retirement would have meant he had to make an effort to see her and also she was making plans, looking at houses had planned her whole life around his imaginary timescale, it was getting too close for comfort and, that is why he think he behaved the way he did.

 

They were apart for almost 12 months when she ended her life, she had been to stay with me for a while and we thought all was well, but you never know. I notified him of her death and funeral after checking with her family that he would be welcome. They had known him for 15 yrs also and he was a part of their lives, His betrayal wasn't just my friend but them also. Just as he had done at numerous family events, a seat was there amongst close family and remained empty. So, so sad.

 

What an ass.

 

I am sorry for the loss of your friend. And it sounds like it was a great loss to many others too. What a horrible shame and a waste of a wonderful woman's life. This guy should rot in hell for killing her.

[gettingstronger]

Agreed, when my husband tried the whole I didn't know what I was getting into thing, I reminded him that he is an intelligent adult and so he either didn't care about the outcome or wasn't thinking about it clearly but he certainly knew what he was doing was wrong and would end badly.