ConfusedHumanBeing Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 this is the underlying question. is it healthy to encourage that if we are dumped then our ex must absolutely be BPD or a Narcissist? i'm simply encouraging discussing their bad behavior as just that...behavior, and also that the more time you waste focusing on every detail of diagnosing your ex is still time FOCUSING ON THEM instead of focusing on YOU moving forward with the situation. I agree with what you said 1000% 1
flitzanu Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Flit, the vast majority of BPDers (i.e., those displaying strong traits) are high-functioning people who do not exhibit suicidal behavior. With BPDers, such behavior usually is seen in the low-functioning folks. Hence, if your Ex exhibits most BPD warning signs at a strong and persistent level, it is very unlikely she would be showing suicidal traits. so i should assume my ex is BPD, and not that she's just a selfish B----? this is the underlying point of my questioning. at what point is there a line drawn that people can't just be "human" and we just don't agree with their behavior...versus them obviously being flawed and having a disorder?
KaliLove Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 so i should assume my ex is BPD, and not that she's just a selfish B----? this is the underlying point of my questioning. at what point is there a line drawn that people can't just be "human" and we just don't agree with their behavior...versus them obviously being flawed and having a disorder? Why does this matter so much to you? 1
Downtown Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 At what point is there a line drawn that people can't just be "human" and we just don't agree with their behavior...versus them obviously being flawed and having a disorder?Flit, being human means that a person occasionally exhibits all the traits of BPD and the other personality disorders. These disorders are simply collections of basic human behaviors that create dysfunctional behavior when they become strong and persistent. This is why BPD and the other PDs are said to be "spectrum disorders," which means we all exhibit these traits to some degree. When you are dealing with something that varies by degree -- e.g., with human behavior, human height, or human weight -- it makes no sense to "draw a line" (as you say) to separate one group of people from another. Instead of drawing a line, what is needed is to identify a metric for measuring the degree of variation in each individual. Hence, for weight, we use a scale that measures in pounds and ounces. And, for height, we use a yardstick that measures in feet and inches. Similarly, for BPD behavioral traits, we will be using a dimensional scale that the APA is currently developing so as to measure gradations in the strength of those traits. Importantly, this move to a dimensional measurement of BPD will make it obvious that BPD applies to ALL of us and that learning about these traits will give you a much greater understanding of your own behavior -- regardless of whether you are currently functioning in the normal, moderate, strong, or severe range of BPD traits. The irony of the APA adopting this dimensional approach to diagnosing BPD is that the people having the strongest BPD traits are likely to be the most vocal opponents of such an approach. BPDers have little or no tolerance for strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or any other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. This is why BPDers (those having strong traits) will categorize everyone as being "all white" (i.e., "with me") or "all black" (i.e., "against me"). Yet, when it comes to human traits like behavior, height, and weight, nearly everyone is in a "grey area" because it is extremely rare for a person to be at one end of the spectrum or the other. I therefore suggest you give up on the notion of drawing a bright line (to distinguished "flawed" from "nonflawed"). Instead, it would be far more appropriate to decide -- on a person to person basis -- how much of the BPD traits you are willing to tolerate given the offsetting benefits offered by that particular person. In the same way that you have an acceptable range of weights and heights for a potential mate, you likely also have an acceptable range for BPD trait intensity. 1
ConfusedHumanBeing Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Why does this matter so much to you? I'm not really speaking for him, but I can say that I've been on here awhile, and from what I can see, it seems like EVERYTHING needs to be explained with a disease. "Oh, she MUST have BPD" Or "Oh GIGS THATS the reason" or "She left me because of _______" When maybe, they just left because they felt like it. Everyone wants a concrete reason why and will spend numerous amounts of time trying to justify WHY they were left when, to me, whats the point? Does it really matter? I get what fitz is saying and it makes total sense. 3
ConfusedHumanBeing Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 There is a big difference between how G.I.G.S. is used on LS compared to BPD. 7 Year Itch, Commitment Phoebe, G.I.G.S. are terms we describe a situation, state of mind or stage of life and that is not what happens here with BPD. When we throw our terms around it usually the dumpee says "Oh... That is explains it" and maybe a few questions. The problem with BPD on here is you have people like the OP (dated a chick for a year and half) is spending all his time, effort and energy on BPD and his Ex. He and many other posters who think their Ex has BPD spend as much time learning about it as someone who is getting a PhDs in Psychology. Downtown was married to someone with BPD for 15 years, went through hell and back and very knowledgeable. That is TOTALLY different than two 20 somethings dating for a year and half. They are not even in the same galaxy. Now the OP thinks because he dated an immature girl in her early twenties (who may or may not have BPD) thinks he has more issues than National Geographic. This is not helping him get over ex, focus on him, moving on, healing, make positive changes, etc. and is making everything worse. I'm comparing the two in notion to people on here trying to find reasons. Never once did I say BPD and GIGS is the same thing. I get the differences between the two believe me. I get what you're saying.
KaliLove Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I'm not really speaking for him, but I can say that I've been on here awhile, and from what I can see, it seems like EVERYTHING needs to be explained with a disease. "Oh, she MUST have BPD" Or "Oh GIGS THATS the reason" or "She left me because of _______" When maybe, they just left because they felt like it. Everyone wants a concrete reason why and will spend numerous amounts of time trying to justify WHY they were left when, to me, whats the point? Does it really matter? I get what fitz is saying and it makes total sense. Ok, but even if it's not true, if it makes someone feel better to think that their ex has a mental issue rather than just not wanting to be with them..if that boosts their confidence after a break up..then why not let them think that instead of putting them down for it and making them feel worse? I like you a lot and I think you give fantastic advice, but don't you think it's possible that you could be just a little bit jaded because you have been here for so long? I haven't been here nearly as long as you and the stories are already starting to sound the same to me and I find myself getting frustrated with people much faster, but they don't deserve that. EVERYONE analyzes a break up. It's not a bad thing..it's part of the healing process. That's why they're here. Maybe you're just frustrated because you have to give the same advice over and over again, but you have to remember that when people come here it's generally because their pain is fresh. I get where you're coming from, and there are definitely people here who are not putting the work in to heal, and those are the people we need to give tough love to (or a good smack upside the head). But a little patience, for a while at least, is necessary on this site. Sorry for the T/J OP..and FYI, I'm not talking about you, as I actually do believe that your ex legitimately has BPD. 1
ConfusedHumanBeing Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Ok, but even if it's not true, if it makes someone feel better to think that their ex has a mental issue rather than just not wanting to be with them..if that boosts their confidence after a break up..then why not let them think that instead of putting them down for it and making them feel worse? I like you a lot and I think you give fantastic advice, but don't you think it's possible that you could be just a little bit jaded because you have been here for so long? I haven't been here nearly as long as you and the stories are already starting to sound the same to me and I find myself getting frustrated with people much faster, but they don't deserve that. EVERYONE analyzes a break up. It's not a bad thing..it's part of the healing process. That's why they're here. Maybe you're just frustrated because you have to give the same advice over and over again, but you have to remember that when people come here it's generally because their pain is fresh. I get where you're coming from, and there are definitely people here who are not putting the work in to heal, and those are the people we need to give tough love to (or a good smack upside the head). But a little patience, for a while at least, is necessary on this site. Sorry for the T/J OP..and FYI, I'm not talking about you, as I actually do believe that your ex legitimately has BPD. First, I fully know every person analyzes a break-up. I did too. Thats 95% of the threads on here. Not over my head. Second, never did I ever put anyone down nor am I getting frustrated with anything or anyone. Third, I have loads of patience. If I didn't I wouldnt be on this site. Some people here alone would have made me psycho MONTHS ago. In the end, people can look for a reason all they want to. Whatever floats their boat. I know a LOT (not saying the OP) obsess about it and this keeps the healing from progressing and/or puts them in much worse situation. It's a slippery slope. There isnt ALWAYS some sort of personality disorder when someone breaks up. Especially recently, it's been "Did my ex leave because of ________" Then "Well I checked her FB and I think this could mean she has this" or "She hangs with her friend a lot so I called here and we talked and I KNOW my ex now has this" Again, why chase after reasons when the end result is the same? 1
FreedomRings Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 First, I fully know every person analyzes a break-up. I did too. Thats 95% of the threads on here. Not over my head. Second, never did I ever put anyone down nor am I getting frustrated with anything or anyone. Third, I have loads of patience. If I didn't I wouldnt be on this site. Some people here alone would have made me psycho MONTHS ago. In the end, people can look for a reason all they want to. Whatever floats their boat. I know a LOT (not saying the OP) obsess about it and this keeps the healing from progressing and/or puts them in much worse situation. It's a slippery slope. There isnt ALWAYS some sort of personality disorder when someone breaks up. Especially recently, it's been "Did my ex leave because of ________" Then "Well I checked her FB and I think this could mean she has this" or "She hangs with her friend a lot so I called here and we talked and I KNOW my ex now has this" Again, why chase after reasons when the end result is the same? Well, for me... realizing that my ex exhibited strong BPD traits made it easier for me to let go. If I didn't stumble across this thread, I probably would've still been trying to figure out how to make it work with him. But now I realize my relationship was not normal...it was very dysfunctional. And I have now moved on with my life and I am taking the steps to heal so that I do not end up in another relationship like that again. Just saying.
ConfusedHumanBeing Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Well, for me... realizing that my ex exhibited strong BPD traits made it easier for me to let go. If I didn't stumble across this thread, I probably would've still been trying to figure out how to make it work with him. But now I realize my relationship was not normal...it was very dysfunctional. And I have now moved on with my life and I am taking the steps to heal so that I do not end up in another relationship like that again. Just saying. Again, whatever floats your boat. I'm glad it helped you. I think people are associating what I'm saying as if I'm some cranky old dude sitting in a rocking chair and yelling at the neighbor kids to get off his lawn. As I mentioned in a previous post today, people only see what they want to see. If you feel its better to say that your ex has something which contributed to the BU, then by all means. If it helps, so be it. 1
KaliLove Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 (edited) Again, whatever floats your boat. I'm glad it helped you. I think people are associating what I'm saying as if I'm some cranky old dude sitting in a rocking chair and yelling at the neighbor kids to get off his lawn. As I mentioned in a previous post today, people only see what they want to see. If you feel its better to say that your ex has something which contributed to the BU, then by all means. If it helps, so be it. Thank you. That was my point. People are going to analyze a break up anyway, so why not let them think their ex is crazy rather than think that there's something wrong with them and that they deserved to be broken up with? If it makes them feel better, what's the harm? Unless they're a total jerk and really did deserve to be dumped, in which case bring on the bitchslaps! Once again, I have a lot of respect for you and for the advice you give, and I genuinely appreciate that you are still here. Also, where'd you get your rocking chair? Because I want one. Edited May 9, 2014 by KaliLove 1
BC1980 Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Thank you. That was my point. People are going to analyze a break up anyway, so why not let them think their ex is crazy rather than think that there's something wrong with them and that they deserved to be broken up with? If it makes them feel better, what's the harm? Unless they're a total jerk and really did deserve to be dumped, in which case bring on the bitchslaps! Once again, I have a lot of respect for you and for the advice you give, and I genuinely appreciate that you are still here. Also, where'd you get your rocking chair? Because I want one. I disagree on this point for myself. It was really important for me to be honest with myself. I had a hard time at first and wanted to make him out to be all bad. He did do some awful stuff, but I had to look myself too and ask why I stayed and accepted that treatment. I made much more progress once I started to focus on myself.
KaliLove Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I disagree on this point for myself. It was really important for me to be honest with myself. I had a hard time at first and wanted to make him out to be all bad. He did do some awful stuff, but I had to look myself too and ask why I stayed and accepted that treatment. I made much more progress once I started to focus on myself. Fair enough. But it can be both. You can think your ex has a personality disorder and ALSO analyze why you stayed. My ex actually does have several personality disorders (diagnosed by doctors, not by me), though he refuses to acknowledge them and claims that multiple therapists have told him he doesn't need therapy even though he's on a daily cocktail of 6 different anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs. Who the f*ck stays with a person like that??? Me..that's who. I am in therapy to figure out why the hell I would do that to myself. Anyone who thinks their ex is mentally ill, whether they are or not, should be in therapy to try to figure that **** out. 2
ConfusedHumanBeing Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Thank you. That was mixet. People are going to analyze a break up anyway, so why not let them think their ex is crazy rather than think that there's something wrong with them and that they deserved to be broken up with? If it makes them feel better, what's the harm? Unless they're a total jerk and really did deserve to be dumped, in which case bring on the bitchslaps! Once again, I have a lot of respect for you and for the advice you give, and I genuinely appreciate that you are still here. Also, where'd you get your rocking chair? Because I want one. I bought it at Ikea. Nice chair, but I think I mixed up where the arm rest and the actual rocker goes. Damn thing keeps snapping in half
KaliLove Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Actually, upon further reflection, anyone who is pining over an ex who they think is mentally ill should absolutely be in therapy. It should be a requirement. Sorry BC, but I don't see what one has to do with the other. You can self-reflect and still think your ex was a nutball.
KaliLove Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I bought it at Ikea. Nice chair, but I think I mixed up where the arm rest and the actual rocker goes. Damn thing keeps snapping in half Remind me not to ask you to help me put my furniture together.
BC1980 Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 Actually, upon further reflection, anyone who is pining over an ex who they think is mentally ill should absolutely be in therapy. It should be a requirement. Sorry BC, but I don't see what one has to do with the other. You can self-reflect and still think your ex was a nutball. I agree you can think your ex is nuts, and mine was to an extent. For myself though, I needed to be fair, which of course is subjective. My ex would justify his actions and paint a different picture of course. I needed to take my blame too, and I guess the bigger point I'm trying to make is that we need to focus on ourselves. In the end, we need to figure ourselves out and put more effort into that than diagnosing our exes.
KaliLove Posted May 9, 2014 Posted May 9, 2014 I agree you can think your ex is nuts, and mine was to an extent. For myself though, I needed to be fair, which of course is subjective. My ex would justify his actions and paint a different picture of course. I needed to take my blame too, and I guess the bigger point I'm trying to make is that we need to focus on ourselves. In the end, we need to figure ourselves out and put more effort into that than diagnosing our exes. I'm not disagreeing with you, but analyzing is a part of healing (to a certain extent..after a while it just becomes ridiculous, unhealthy, and self-indulgent)..and if that includes diagnosing our exes as insane to make ourselves feel better..so be it. One has nothing to do with the other. You can have a crazy ex and still be a dumb@ss for staying with them for as long as you did (like me!!). I think we're pretty much making the same point here, haha. 2
Author Caliguy30 Posted May 10, 2014 Author Posted May 10, 2014 Most people come here who never went through a break up before or want to commiserate with their fellow dumpees. They talk about the their relationship, break up, psychoanalyze their Ex and try to figure out where it went wrong, what they or their could have done different, go through the "stages of grief" and healing process. you have 18+ pages of people writing / discussing what a BPD dissertation for psychology student getting their PhD. A 20 something year old kid dated a 20 something year old woman that was in an immature crappy roller-coaster relationship that lasted a year and half. Now he is convinced that he has deep psychological problems and will remain traumatized for life because his Ex has BFD (or may not). The OP in this thread has gone of the rails and is in far worse condition than when he got here. When I was 22 or so I was in a relationship with for 3+ years (twice what the OP was in) and walked in on that girl having sex with some idiot. Granted it hurt and was difficult to get over but even at that age if I came here I wouldn't have 18 pages and think I was screwed for life because that girl may or may not have BPD or NPD or whatever and then go get PhD on the subject. The OP still hasn't looked in the mirror and addressed any of the issues that allowed him to date / stay with his crappy Ex. It's still all about his Ex and BPD and how he is traumatized for life. When anyone says enough is enough, they get attacked because some posters here want to enable the OP bad behavior. Enough already, stop feeding the monster and give the OP some tough love. Ummmm, I have really backed off this because this type of assumption. Hahahaha when did I ever say she "ruined my life." I basically just come on here to vent and not reach out to her. You don't basically know nothing about me personally or the crap I went through. You never met her father who is an absolute psycho and definitely has had effects on their whole family. You know what I'm not doing, talking to her. You know what I am doing, going to the gym, hanging out with friends, and I go to work every day with a smile on my face. I struggle, just like any breakup, but I have just been posting on here. The only thing I've taken from this is learning how to not put myself in this position again. KALILOVE knows the story she knows what a dealt with willingly. Yes, it wasn't a 15 yr marriage like DOWNTOWN, but dude don't sit there and act like you know I was just dealing with a young girl. The toll it has taken on me psychologically and physically you have no clue. I've dated lots of girls, but this one was different. You can look at my age all you want, but please don't act like you know my story.
Downtown Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Yes, it wasn't a 15 yr marriage like DOWNTOWN, but dude don't sit there and act like you know I was just dealing with a young girl. The toll it has taken on me psychologically and physically you have no clue.I agree with you, Cali. Regardless of whether it was 15 years or 1.5 years, being in a close relationship with a person having strong BPD traits is extremely disorienting and confusing. Indeed, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. This is why therapists see far more of those partners -- seeking therapy to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves. 2
KaliLove Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 Why the eff would I have told GH guy about my ex??? I'm not that stupid! OP is a good guy. Lay off. Besides..I don't want my lame-ass ex back. He sucks at life. Sensitive isn't a bad thing! I mean, I don't want a guy who is sobbing on my shoulder every 5 minutes, but I also don't want a guy who is a douche either.
Downtown Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) In BPDer relationships, the party who is convinced she is "The Victim" is the BPDer, not her partner. Typically, the people willing to live with a BPDer for more than a year are excessive caregivers like Cali and me. We don't think of ourselves as VICTIMS but, rather, as RESCUERS who can fix anything. When we get drawn into a BPDer relationship, we "rescuers" nearly drive ourselves crazy because we are mistakenly convinced that, if we can only figure out what WE are going wrong, we can restore our BPDer partner to that wonderful human being we saw during the courtship period. Until we realize that we are trying to fix someone with strong traits of a mental disorder, we will not let go long enough to focus on our own problem (i.e., our excessive desire to be needed). This is one reason that the quickest way to get this abused partner to focus on HIS problem is to provide him sufficient information to see that trying to fix his partner's issue (strong BPD traits) is an IMPOSSIBLE TASK. Once he realizes he has been trying to do the impossible for a year and a half (as Cali did) or for 15 years (as I did), he will immediately recognize that he himself has issues or he would never have attempted something so foolish. Another reason for providing BPD information to these excessive caregivers is that their empathy is so great -- and their personal boundaries so low -- that they cannot tell where their own problems stop and those of their BPDer partners begin. They are so tangled and intertwined with their loved ones that figuring out what their own problems are seems to be an impossible task. Yet, once they realize that their partners have strong BPD traits, they can quickly see -- by simple subtraction -- what part of the toxic mess is due to their own contribution (i.e., due to their enabling, doormat behaviors). A third reason for providing BPD information is that these abused "rescuers" in a BPDer relationship generally are LOATH to walk away from a sick loved one. Doing so is made all the more difficult by the BPDer's child-like behavior, which make the separation process as painful as leaving a sick child whom you love. Yet, as soon as the "rescuer" realizes he is actually HARMING the BPDer with his enabling behavior, he will be able to break free from the guilt that is holding him in the toxic relationship. To see that his "attempts to be helpful" are actually harmful, he must first understand that a BPDer has no incentive to get better as long as her partner continues to protect her from suffering the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. Finally, a fourth reason for providing BPD information is that excessive caregivers like Cali and me achieve nothing by leaving a BPDer Ex if we run right into the arms of another woman just like the one we left. It therefore is important that we learn how to spot BPD warning signs. Otherwise, we likely will walk right on past all the emotionally available women (BORING!) until we find another woman who desperately needs us. If Cali's Ex has strong BPD traits as he believes, her problem is not being "an immature girl in her early twenties" but, rather, having the emotional development of a four year old. Importantly, this is not a small problem. Because 6% of the population has full-blown BPD, and because BPDers almost always are paired with nonBPDers in LTRS, 12% of the adult population in LTRs is in a BPDer relationship. Significantly, this 12% figure excludes the relationships containing a BPDer whose traits are strong enough to make your life miserable but nonetheless fall short of the diagnostic threshold for having full-blown BPD. Hence, the share of the population in abusive "BPDer-type" relationships likely is well above 12%. And that share is larger still when you consider that BPDers tend to jump from one toxic relationship to another, leaving a long trail of abused partners. Edited May 10, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Response to and quotations of banned member redacted; topical material retained 3
William Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 (edited) Previously banned member showed up so we had to do some editing, attempting to retain topical material as much as possible. Please continue! Edit: Must be PBM Saturday. Let's just stipulate to unattributed quotes are that way for a reason. Edited May 10, 2014 by William
On All Fours Posted May 10, 2014 Posted May 10, 2014 If Cali's Ex has strong BPD traits as he believes, her problem is not being "an immature girl in her early twenties" but, rather, having the emotional development of a four year old. You are older and do not have any idea what it is like dating women our age. I saw this in a previous post about traits of someone with BPD. 1. Impulsive and risky behavior, such as risky driving, unsafe sex, gambling sprees or illegal drug use 2. Awareness of destructive behavior, including self-injury, but sometimes feeling unable to change it 3. Wide mood swings 4. Short but intense episodes of anxiety or depression 5. Inappropriate anger and antagonistic behavior, sometimes escalating into physical fights 6. Difficulty controlling emotions or impulses 7. Suicidal behavior 8. Feeling misunderstood, neglected, alone, empty or hopeless 9. Fear of being alone 10. Feelings of self-hate and self-loathing Take it from a guy who is that young. In High School a large majority of women who are going through pubirty / adolecence and would check most of those boxes. Now in college they are immature, entitled, self absorb who also check off most of the boxes. Dating women at our age sucks and they always screw you over and break your heart. They usually pass on us for the jerks and players who treat them like crap. If we do date one and have a relationship for a long time the girls are all over the place, they like to argue and fight, hot and cold, sweet then mean, break up with you and want you back the next day, cuss you out and call you names, blow you off for friends or a party, you can't even have a rational conversation or have a disagreement without them being cruel, lie, cheat, hanging up on you, trying to make you jealous, punishing you or going all out crazy. We all get played, lied too, cheated on and dumped for some a-hole who treats them crap. All these girls cannot have BPD and I do not see how anyone could possibly know till they are older. I think it's their emotions, immaturity, entitlement, lots of distractions with friends, guys, parties, work, school, social media, bad influences, peer presure, drinking and lots of attention of from guys, players and jerks. Good guys get treated worse than the dog crap you scrape of the bottom of your shoe.
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