is good enough good enough?

[It-is-what-it-is.]

I agree with Zen here Katie.

 

I also went back and read some of your other posts, and you present your WS as someone who usually "gets it". Maybe I am misreading?

 

I think you may want to define what is a great marriage. In realistic terms. And realistically sit down with your husband and discuss the state of your good enough marriage and whether you have it in you to try to make it great.

 

I can't imagine that the dysfunctional coping skills started with the affairs, but they affairs are blocking the progress to aggressive and fix those items now. All the affair fallout needs to be worked through, I disagree Road, it's not yet time to stop talking about the affairs, because issues have not been addressed.

 

Lastly Katie, think about the future...would you be happier, in your own little apartment, without the added tension, starting over?

 

Or would you be happier together, and working through the mutual wounds?

 

Because marriages survive...but only if you both really want them to.

IIWII

[katielee]

Dad's:

 

"If you were even close to being remorseful, you'd do whatever you can to support him. You obviously don't.If you were even close to being remorseful, you'd do whatever you can to support him. You obviously don't."

 

oh yes I did.for two years...before he had his affairs I was the wayward and supported him every step of the way...

 

But in your head, remorse means excusing him for two affairs.Not gonna happen. And I would be a fool and unhealthy to use my affair as a reason to.

 

I really don't get the logic on this thread.

[katielee]

Anyway, whatever you decide, I think you need to work through the infidelities first, because you haven't. I think you've grown and learned from your choice to cheat, and you realize that nothing justifies cheating, not even cheating. But I get the impression that you resent your husband for not getting this - welcome to the world of BS.

 

Counselling for the two of you, MC?

 

great advice and we've been to MC since his first affair with an infidelity specialist.

 

yes, you're right. That's exactly where I'm stuck... resentful that he doesn't get it. I have chocies and I'm just trying to make the best one...

[katielee]

I think you need to work through the infidelities first, because you haven't.

?

 

i think you're right. I think I've worked through mine and logically,I understand his - self medicating, and then shame at being caught the first time, still being angry with me and self medicating again.

 

The thing is, if I understand WHY he did it, why can't I forgive him? I think I would be much farther along with just one affair but the other one pretty much nailed me. I refuse to lump both affairs into one affair season. Not sure why.

[Jonah]

That you are trying. That should speak clearly to your husbands heart. Sex is a powerful thing and and can be a wonderful thing for two to share. Misused it can be powerfully destructive, not a small part of the thrill of infidelity is the abuse of that power. Come to realize that the lasting peace and happiness of fidelity is far greater a prize than the shorter thrill of infidelity which brings the wort of regret and sorrow, and you and yours will be able to enjoy, and understand each other as sexual, though somewhat flawed... just like everyone else, individuals.

[AlwaysGrowing]

when you say your husband doesnt get it, what exactly do you mean?

 

We all process **** differently. We all are on a different timeline.

 

What has changed? What hasn't changed?

 

Do you feel as though you are building up resentment? Have you shared this with your husband?

[katielee]

I'll give an example:

 

here's what I would have said if he found out about the affairs like I did, going at it in a park:

 

honey, I'm so so sorry that you found out the way you did. I didn't tell you the truth and you were absolutely burdened because of it. You knew something was going on and I lied to you. That was so cruel of me. I'm so sorry. I feel terribly about this and I know the way you found out led to your PTSD. I am 100% responsible for that. I completely understand if you would leave me over this. Although I'm not that person anymore, I understand that what I did and how I lied was abusive to you. I'm so sorry. I will do anything to alleviate this. Spy on me all you need to to feel safe. Let's put some money aside so you can hire a PI any time you feel you need to. This will never happen again but I know I betrayed your trust and that it will take years to rebuild.

 

 

that is what I said to him - although he never caught me, the things I did were cruel nontheless and I apologized to him like this.

 

 

What I got from him: I'm sorry. if you would have listened to your therapist and had the PI tell you what happened instead of coming to the park you wouldn't be so traumatized.

 

NOT GETTING IT.

 

But I get it now - he's still stuck in shame :/

Edited September 6, 2013 by katielee
wanted to add another sentence

[Try]

The thing is, if I understand WHY he did it, why can't I forgive him?

Because your definition of forgiveness is to not be angry about it. Since you are human that is not possible, because you will always be angry about it. This anger will pop up less and less over time, but it will never be completely gone. Forgiveness is not about not being angry, it is about dealing with that anger in a healthy way.

 

I think I would be much farther along with just one affair but the other one pretty much nailed me. I refuse to lump both affairs into one affair season. Not sure why.

If the tables were turned, and it was you that had cheated with two different partners over a three month period, and it was your husband that had been caught cheating and then went back to cheat with the same affair partner again, a good argument could be made by you as to why his cheating with the same partner was worse. You could say that by cheating with two different partners it showed that it was just sex and nothing more, and that his cheating with the same partner after being caught the first time was worse, because it showed that there was an emotional connection as well as the sex. It is all about point of view, and you tend to be skilled at debating and positioning things such that you come out ahead. You are probably much better at this than your husband. Although normally a good skill, it is not helpful here.

 

The truth be told, you are shocked that your husband would ever cheat on you. You thought that he did not have it in him. You thought that he would never cheat on you, no not you. You thought that he would seriously consider and threaten divorce, before backing down and reconciling, but cheating on you, never. He surprised you and things did not go according to plan. Now it is not just him that must deal with betrayal, but you too. You knew that he would eventually be able to deal with it. The unexpected question is can you?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Try

[katielee]

You knew that he would eventually be able to deal with it. The unexpected question is can you?

 

I think it's pretty obvious he is NOT dealing with it.

 

I had something awful happen to me and I didn't use old coping mechanisms to deal with it - have another affair myself. I'm trying to deal with it in a healthy way by healing, not acting out, and making an informed decision on if I can live with this man....

 

doesn't matter if I expected it or not. It happened. I can either stay with him or not. That's what I'm trying to determine...

 

He's being great in most aspects - last night I cried and he held me through it....but every once in a while he throws the zingers out like about causing my own trauma. I have to decide if I can live with what he did... I don't feel forgiveness is needed to have a "good enough" relationship.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I often see that the revenge affair spouse has a more difficult time accepting responsibility for their choices. It is much more easier to lay blame at the first ws doorstep. For some...its a huge hurdle.

 

Sometimes we get caught up...in how we would handle...say things. His wording...although not the best...might have been him simply pointing out...the obvious. Did you ask any follow up questions? "how do you think I feel about seeing you having sex in a park?"

 

Again...some of the trauma you have...is caused by your actions. His actions of course added to it. Separating the two I imagine is quite the task.

 

I applaud you for not reverting back to old coping mechanisms...well done.

 

As hard as it is....stay focused on yourself. If he is able to grow with you...awesome. Remember that he is not as far along the healing continuum as yourself...as you have had more time to process your actions.

 

The most important forgiveness...is the forgiveness you give yourself...one that is earned. So that...even if the other party never gives/offers forgiveness you know that you have worked through those choices, made the repairs, live your life consciously, and now have self respect.

 

On a side note, there are many posts on here...that advocate affairs...if the right set of circumstances arise. Wrong. Whether or not you cheated does not give your husband carte blanche to cheat as well. Bottom line, if cheating says negative things about you....it says the same things about him.

[Jonah]

have a "good enough" relationship.

 

Katielee, Reading all of the words in your posts it is obvious that you are on the right track so please know that you are doing the right things. Do be aware that your H is still hurting. You are not feeling his pain, but he surly is. I read that he is having difficulty understanding your pain too. Of course, he can't feel it so best you can both do is find ways to communicate. Funny how you mentioning your pain is an actual trigger for his pain, but you can help him with that. In fact, you may be the only person in the world that will ever be able to help him with it. When he says, "you caused you own pain", what he is really saying is that he hurts right to the core and he is crying out to you for help. He is asking you to sooth his hurt Katielee, for you to say the words to make it go away. "I'm so sorry I hurt you, that I hurt our relationship, please forgive me" works really well. You can do it woman, knowing him you can find the right words like no one else. Yes there is an immature part of him lashing out at the one that hurt him, but that's not precisely you katielee, that is a person that lived in the past. You can be the grownup here. He sounds weak at this point but can end up as a strong person if you take the time to help him stand up. Those that are saying "revenge affair and one-up", that is incorrect. What could be correct is that the emotional event changed him in ways that made him need to feel desired, to make him need to feel attractive, to cause him, now a wounded little boy, to make feeble attempts to restore his own self confidence. But that doesn't mean that his affairs would not have happened anyway. For being that you attracted each other, you do have things in common, one being very sexual creatures and the can wind up being a double edge sword if you don't be careful to maintain respect for each other. So do that Katielee, help him help you to rebuild trust and respect. Sorry but you will have to swallow you lumps here. You are right in communicating with him that you are hurt. From your words here you should also ask him to hear you, to truly listen to you, to at least acknowledge your soul without prejudice, just as you accept his, frailties included. Keep working on him Katielee, you are on the right track.

[katielee]

Funny how you mentioning your pain is an actual trigger for his pain, but you can help him with that.

 

wow, Jonah I think you have everything straight! I also think that he had his 2nd affair because he was so ashamed and self medicated again... that said, actions have consequences...

 

i also agree that he was looking for self confidence because what I did so deflated him... wrong to do but I get it.

 

Part of me feels like just throwing in the towel, like he doesn't deserve me to be the bigger person here. I am very resentful that I had to do all the reading, make the appointments, initiate the talks.

 

I think he is so ashamed he can barely look at it. That is why I can talk about his pain without triggering myself - and do so willingly - I detached from the shame that was associated with it and got to work on be healthier... because really, giving him a healthy spouse is the best gift i could give him after cheating on him.

 

your response really made me think. Thank you!

[Jonah]

resentful that I had to do all the reading, make the appointments, initiate the talks.

 

 

Think that there could be a day when you are down and can depend on him to handle things. From what you say, he does have that potential. You might be better at handling these more emotional tasks where he may be better at other things. And like we have been saying, if he is not at his best right now it may have to be you, but just for the short term.

 

Things change katielee, it is sad what you both have been through, but if you can both agree on the goal of making it not "just good enough" but an intimately close and strong relationship where you are both solidly in each others corner... in just a few years this could turn out to be a wonderful thing to be enjoyed through time. Him seeing you doing all this heavy lifting... he will love you for it katielee.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Jonah
deleted a repeat word

[AlwaysGrowing]

I imagine that for most men, talking about being emasculate because of their wifes affair is very difficult. It makes them vulnerable...the underbelly.

 

Instead, its easier to shield with "strength", even false strength.

 

It does sound like you both have something to build on. Don't let resentments build up, they tend to expand and take on a life of their own.

 

Maybe reading isn't his thing, keeping score of who initiates talks isn't going to help. Does he participate in the talks? It does sound like he is there for you.

[katielee]

Don't let resentments build up, they tend to expand and take on a life of their own.

 

Maybe reading isn't his thing, keeping score of who initiates talks isn't going to help. Does he participate in the talks? It does sound like he is there for you.

 

resentments; I've been doing the heavy lifting for a long long time. Since I confessed. I'm sure, in his hurt, he couldn't manage to do much. Yet that's still our MO... I'm also VERY resentful that the OW live here and I average seeing them about once every three weeks. I should NEVER have to see them again, especially the one I saw him with, it retraumatizes me. I don't know what the answer is for this but moving, and I don't want to move... when I see them I want to strangle him. Being I have PTSD I work very hard at staying in the moment and present time. Then I'm slapped back into the past and I have a meltdown. Maybe this will get better with time.

 

He participates in the talks but he doesn't like them. He says it makes him not as close to me. Ok, so will we ever get to intimacy then? He is there for me..... in a superficial way.

 

Two weeks ago he said, do you think you're worth moving away for? I said yes. I didn't ask him if he thought I was but I'm going to and if the answer is no, why? and would the answer be different if I hadn't had an affair? If so, I'm not interested in staying together because I'm still being punished then.

 

Sorry I keep asking all these questions.... you can see we have a lot of issues still...

[AlwaysGrowing]

Was his question...him trying to gauge your commitment?

 

Let's be real here, moving from infidelity is work.

 

Time for you to put down his share. It is his to own.

 

Can you try to stay focus on the ws side? I know its easy to stay stuck in the bs side, being the victim always is..no matter what the trauma.

 

I don't know about having to see ow often. It certainly can't be easy. What exactly are the feeling you have when you see them, besides wanting to strangle your husband.

 

PTSD is difficult to work through. Have you tried EMDR?

[katielee]

Time for you to put down his share. It is his to own.

 

PTSD is difficult to work through. Have you tried EMDR?

 

yes, and when I put his share down, I see how he doesnt' pick it up. It's his right,to do this,and I shouldn't force it. I just need to watch and determine if this is enough for me,which I guess brings me to my original question... It's not enough that he's not having an affair....

 

I have been doing EMDR since May and it has been helping a lot! I use the electronic tappers.

[Jonah]

 

Two weeks ago he said, do you think you're worth moving away for?

 

I once hurt a girl, or should i say, she once hurt me.

-Beatles

 

Like we already talked about... perhaps it was just a cry for help?

 

A long time ago, I was kind of the male counterpart in this story of yours, except I think I got steamrolled much worse than your H... So one day I say to her "I trust you about as far as far as I can throw a 18 wheeler truck". But when I was saying that, I didn't know why I was saying it. It didn't make any sense because I didn't really mean it, but it was a premeditated line that I meant to bomb her with when the opportunity came about. The point is I didn't really mean the words literally and I think sometimes you should take the mean things he says with a grain of salt and instead of trying to figure out their meaning, in this case... "are you good enough?" I think he saw the opportunity to take a swipe and took it. I think the immediate response from you would be to look him in the eye, say "let me make sure I understand what you are saying" and repeat the statement back to him, let it know that it hurt you and ask him "do you really mean that?" Square up confront him on his hurtful one liners and pretty soon he will start thinking twice before spouting poisonous words. If he tries to squirm his way out of it, make him schedule a time to talk it through. Don't let him get away with sticking you in the face in this way. It could be that it makes him feel good in the short term but long term he will feel like crap acting like a jerk like that.

 

It is erroneous human nature to justify ourselves by demeaning others, especially the one we love the most. I hope fate will somehow bring this man some enlightenment before he looses this treasure that he has in you katielee.

 

Don't be afraid... Remember that you are the grown up here.

[bubbaganoosh]

[quote name=. I have PTSD because I caught him on top of the 2nd woman.

.

.[/quote]

 

 

I think, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or play MC because I sure as hell am not one, but I think having an affair is cruel enough, but when you caught your husband on the rise with another woman for lack of a better term and actually seeing the act is IMO a double shot. It's one thing to know about an affair and another to actually witness the act. I understand how that would really hurt. Would I be right in that analogy? That you saw them both in the act that makes it a double whammy? That's a hard thing to have to see.

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

I went back and read some of the original poster's earlier posts.

 

She posted that she confessed her emotional affair to her husband. She also posted that she took the affair underground for two months after her initial confession, then finally ended the affair. When another poster suggested it sounded like a physical affair, she said vehemently, no, it was not, and posted in some detail how it only was emotional and never physical. About a year later, she posted that the guilt had gotten to her again, and a year or so after her original confession of emotional affair only, she confessed that it really was a physical affair. So, even though she confessed, her husband had to deal with trickle truth.

 

The original poster's posts are sometimes difficult to decipher, but from the best I can understand, the husband did not have sex with the other women. I'm not sure exactly how physical it got. The original poster caught her husband "on top of" other woman number 2, but they were in a public park and NOT having sex. I am guessing that they were making out and grinding. Still a tough way to find out.

 

Most posts by the original poster since then seem to have been a comparison of their affairs. She confessed, but he didn't. She has to see the other women around town, he doesn't have to see her other man because other man moved away. She had one affair, but he had two. She was very apologetic and remorseful during her confession and took full responsibility, he blamed her for his affairs because he felt "emasculated."

 

There also is a post where it seems original poster talks about being acquaintance-raped on a business trip in her hotel room, which husband looks at as a one-night stand. Not much was posted about this, not sure I got it right.

 

Original poster is not happy with the state of her marriage. She felt there were problems before her cheating. I'm not sure from her posts if those original problems ever were resolved.

 

Original poster is EXTREMELY unhappy about seeing the other women around town. This might be her biggest complaint, and she admits that it's not husband's fault she now runs into these women, but she can't take it anymore. There also is an underlying conflict about whether or not husband and her should quit their jobs that they like and move away from the town that they like just to avoid the triggers of seeing the other women.

 

My observation, and I could be wrong, but I think both the original poster and her husband would like to claim the MORAL HIGH GROUND. Original poster, in my opinion, wants her husband to admit that his affairs were "worse" or at least "just as bad" as hers. He is not doing so, and still seems to be of the opinion that her affair always will be worse because it was first. Her opinion seems to be that his were worse because he did it on purpose just to hurt her, while she did it because of her own faulty reasoning, but not to PURPOSELY hurt him, and also because of the other factors I posted earlier in this post, like she confessed but he was caught, she had one but he had two, etc.

 

They have been in marriage counseling, including with an "infidelity expert," and they still are in a very bad place with each other. It still is very raw for the original poster.

 

katielee, can you clarify some of what went on? Your post asked the question, is a good enough marriage good enough? but you didn't post a lot of detail about why you think it is a "good enough" marriage, or what that exactly means.

 

Also, without changing a single thing about the past, accepting that it all has happened and cannot be changed, where would you like your marriage to go, what would you like it to be like? And what changes would you have to make, and what changes would your husband have to make, to get there?

[road]

I went back and read some of the original poster's earlier posts.

 

She posted that she confessed her emotional affair to her husband. She also posted that she took the affair underground for two months after her initial confession, then finally ended the affair. When another poster suggested it sounded like a physical affair, she said vehemently, no, it was not, and posted in some detail how it only was emotional and never physical. About a year later, she posted that the guilt had gotten to her again, and a year or so after her original confession of emotional affair only, she confessed that it really was a physical affair. So, even though she confessed, her husband had to deal with trickle truth.

 

The original poster's posts are sometimes difficult to decipher, but from the best I can understand, the husband did not have sex with the other women. I'm not sure exactly how physical it got. The original poster caught her husband "on top of" other woman number 2, but they were in a public park and NOT having sex. I am guessing that they were making out and grinding. Still a tough way to find out.

 

Most posts by the original poster since then seem to have been a comparison of their affairs. She confessed, but he didn't. She has to see the other women around town, he doesn't have to see her other man because other man moved away. She had one affair, but he had two. She was very apologetic and remorseful during her confession and took full responsibility, he blamed her for his affairs because he felt "emasculated."

 

There also is a post where it seems original poster talks about being acquaintance-raped on a business trip in her hotel room, which husband looks at as a one-night stand. Not much was posted about this, not sure I got it right.

 

Original poster is not happy with the state of her marriage. She felt there were problems before her cheating. I'm not sure from her posts if those original problems ever were resolved.

 

Original poster is EXTREMELY unhappy about seeing the other women around town. This might be her biggest complaint, and she admits that it's not husband's fault she now runs into these women, but she can't take it anymore. There also is an underlying conflict about whether or not husband and her should quit their jobs that they like and move away from the town that they like just to avoid the triggers of seeing the other women.

 

My observation, and I could be wrong, but I think both the original poster and her husband would like to claim the MORAL HIGH GROUND. Original poster, in my opinion, wants her husband to admit that his affairs were "worse" or at least "just as bad" as hers. He is not doing so, and still seems to be of the opinion that her affair always will be worse because it was first. Her opinion seems to be that his were worse because he did it on purpose just to hurt her, while she did it because of her own faulty reasoning, but not to PURPOSELY hurt him, and also because of the other factors I posted earlier in this post, like she confessed but he was caught, she had one but he had two, etc.

 

They have been in marriage counseling, including with an "infidelity expert," and they still are in a very bad place with each other. It still is very raw for the original poster.

 

katielee, can you clarify some of what went on? Your post asked the question, is a good enough marriage good enough? but you didn't post a lot of detail about why you think it is a "good enough" marriage, or what that exactly means.

 

Also, without changing a single thing about the past, accepting that it all has happened and cannot be changed, where would you like your marriage to go, what would you like it to be like? And what changes would you have to make, and what changes would your husband have to make, to get there?

 

 

Great recap.

 

Though you left out that the WW/BW and the BH/WH refuse to do what is needed to recover.

 

She is mad that her WH got two OW and she only got one OM.

 

My only solace to the OP is that it all about the quality not the quantity.

[katielee]

 

Though you left out that the WW/BW and the BH/WH refuse to do what is needed to recover.

 

She is mad that her WH got two OW and she only got one OM.

:

 

 

if you look over this thread you'll see that I think my affair was worse. There is no moral high ground to be had. They were all wrong.

mad that he got two- mad that he did it at all is what I think. I don't want another OM, I want to not have had ANY OM.

 

and yes, I was raped in a hotel room.

 

and what exactly is needed to recover? Say we're even now and move on? Not gonna happen. We both have the right to be pissed about this.

[Mickey_Fitzpatrick]

if you look over this thread you'll see that I think my affair was worse. There is no moral high ground to be had. They were all wrong.

mad that he got two- mad that he did it at all is what I think. I don't want another OM, I want to not have had ANY OM.

 

and yes, I was raped in a hotel room.

 

and what exactly is needed to recover? Say we're even now and move on? Not gonna happen. We both have the right to be pissed about this.

 

Katielee, what do you want your husband to do to help you recover? And how does that compare to what he's actually done?

[katielee]

To understand that he didn't have affairs because I did, he had then because he has poor coping skills to deal with stressful situations. I'd like to know what his new coping skills are. I'd like to know if he feels justified in any action because "I did it too" I'd like him to be honest with me, no matter how bad the situation. When he didn't tell me about either affair OR the phone call, it makes me trusting him nigh impossible. I'd like him to understand how very difficiult it is for me to live here, looking over my shoulder all the time, wondering if I'll see them. I'd like him to understand what it does to me when I know he's at work everyday, 100 yards away from the first OW.

I'd like HIM to read, initiate talks, find articles on how best to heal from this.....

[road]

if you look over this thread you'll see that I think my affair was worse. There is no moral high ground to be had. They were all wrong.

mad that he got two- mad that he did it at all is what I think. I don't want another OM, I want to not have had ANY OM.

 

and yes, I was raped in a hotel room.

 

and what exactly is needed to recover? Say we're even now and move on? Not gonna happen. We both have the right to be pissed about this.

 

 

You need to learn to comprehend better. There was sarcasm mixed in with that you and your BH/WH will not do what is needed to recover.