is good enough good enough?

[katielee]

 

You never expected this as you were thinking that as the entitled one in the marraige, that he would always do the right thing and play by the rules regardless of what you did; guess again. This is a very unfortunate situation. Good luck and be well.

 

actually, I thought he would divorcce me.

[katielee]

wow you guys are helpful. If I hadn't admitted I had had an affair first this thread would be totally different.

 

And I've had to spend too much time in here defending myself, which I should have to, when in fact I asked is a good enough marriage good enough.

[dichotomy]

fact I asked is a good enough marriage good enough.

 

 

Ok - thats a good question. Forgetting the details of who did what - who won't forgive who - lets talk about whats good in your marriage.

 

I often suggest to anyone looking at divorce post affair - to list out the plus an minus's and even to consider picturing their life as a "single person" vs "Married person" for a few years into the future. What does this list - or possible alternate post divorce life .....life look like? Which seems good?

[Try]

If I hadn't admitted I had had an affair first this thread would be totally different.

And you think that you having an affair first is not relevant because?

 

I asked is a good enough marriage good enough.

In the short run, after Infidelity, it has to be. Long term it should not be. It will take both time and work for it to be better than that.

[Artie Lang]

im not saying it's right, or that you should even up the score. it just look like that's what he did.

 

you said it yourself..... you forgave him for the first one, but you're resentful of the second one.

[katielee]

And you think that you having an affair first is not relevant because?

 

I feel that to heal and fix, each affair needs to stand alone to be dealt with as that, not a tit for tat situation.

 

My husband didn't have an affair because I had one, he had one because he couldn't deal with the stress, anger and emasculation of what happened. This is all on him.

 

I could sit here and say he wasn't emotionally available to me for 20 years and that's why I had my affair but it WASN'T. It was because I couldn't handle being unhappy and I didn't have the skill set to deal with it. I made the decision to have my affair. It was all on me. Had I asked him, I 'm sure he would have said no. Doesn't matter how we get to the place where we have an affair - he could have beat me. What we need to decipher is what we tell ourselves so that its ok to have an affair. We needed different coping skills, IC, figure out why we need that validation...it's not ok to have an affair to solve a problem, including feeling badly about what others have done to us.

 

If he can't understand that I'm not interested in being married to him. Guess I need to ask him.

[Try]

If he can't understand that I'm not interested in being married to him.

You get to decide to break the rules and cheat, and now you think that you get to decide on the rules on how he deals with your cheating or else. Your rules or the highway. You ave proven to have lost your moral compass, why should he let you continue to lead the way?

[katielee]

"You ave proven to have lost your moral compass, why should he let you continue to lead the way?"

 

Because I'm a healed wayward that understands what I did is totally MY fault, and none of it his fault.

 

What you're eluding to is that an unhealthy choice should beget another unhealthy choice, just to make it right. Nope, that's not how it works.

And as you can see here, it just makes things worse,and even he admits to that... that we could have healed from one (mine)but adding two more was the worse thing that could happen.

[Ebelskiver]

Forgiving the person, not the action, is essential for moving on. How long ago did you find out about the second affair? Forgiveness takes time. Healing takes time. If this is all fairly new, I would expect that both of you are struggling with some intense emotions.

 

It might help to remember that you don't have to decide to stay or go right now. I still don't know if I'm going to stay. It's been three months since D-day.....and while things have generally been great between us there are times that I just don't know if I want to be with someone who could lie to me for so long. I reserve the right to leave at any time.

 

As to why I'm still here, and why you may want to tough it out, on some level I felt we were not finished yet. And, he has been truly remorseful, apologetic, doing what needs to be done to help me move on. It doesn't seem as if your husband is doing that. Your particular circumstances may make true remorse on his part difficult, he may be stuck in that tit for tat mind set. If that's the case, it will be very hard to move forward. Best wishes.

[katielee]

Ebelskiver:it's been a year and 9 months since I caught him the 1st time and a year and 5 months that I caught him again. 3.5 years since my affair. I have PTSD because I caught him on top of the 2nd woman. So,it may take me a little longer to heal so that is why I am wondering if this is all there is or I should give it more time.

 

this is the kind of thing he says to me:if you would have listened to your therapist and not spied and let the PI tell you who I was with instead of seeing it for yourself, you wouldn't be so traumatized.

 

So, you can see that the remorse is a little backwards.This is what I don't know if I can live with.

[Journee]

Ebelskiver:it's been a year and 9 months since I caught him the 1st time and a year and 5 months that I caught him again. 3.5 years since my affair. I have PTSD because I caught him on top of the 2nd woman. So,it may take me a little longer to heal so that is why I am wondering if this is all there is or I should give it more time.

 

this is the kind of thing he says to me:if you would have listened to your therapist and not spied and let the PI tell you who I was with instead of seeing it for yourself, you wouldn't be so traumatized.

 

So, you can see that the remorse is a little backwards.This is what I don't know if I can live with.

 

 

This is probably what is making this feel impossible for you. His saying things of this nature. Being blamed for the way you found out.... lame at best.

 

I also do not see how he has forgiven you in any capacity if he would go the RA route. I am a BS and am far from forgiving my H. I have been having major difficulty keeping my vengeful thoughts in check. This may spell the end. I communicate this with my H. Did your H let you know he was feeling this way or did he tell you that he had forgiven you then blindsided you with his affairs?

 

It just doesn't sound like he ever really forgave you. It sounds like punishment and no I don't think you have to take it on the chin. It's a giant mess.

[Ebelskiver]

A year and a half in is a long time for him to still be blame shifting. And for you to be so unhappy. How horrible for you to have found him in flagrante delicto. I don't think I could easily erase that from my thoughts.

 

I think you know what your decision is, it's just hard to take the steps to make it concrete. I for one, could get over the 1st affair, but if he ever cheats again, I would walk away and never speak to him or see him again.

 

Unless you see true remorse and acceptance on his part, and soon. It's probably best to move on.

[janedoe67]

I'm just wondering.....

 

Is this an affair loophole?

 

I mean...is cheating always the worst thing a human can do.....UNLESS someone else has done it first. Are we all accountable and 100% responsible for our own actions...EXCEPT when someone cheated on us?

 

Don't get me wrong. Cheating is ALWAYS wrong and it is ALWAYS a choice. I know that. I'm not the one who is bending the rules.

 

I'm just looking for some clarification here.

 

I don't give a pass to cheaters - it is inexcusable - and by cheaters I mean the people who cheat ON AND the people who cheat WITH. But I don't give a pass to moral relativism and rule bending based on projection either.

 

An absolute is either an absolute or it's not.

 

So which is it?

[Jonah]

Tell us of the first affair, how did it start, how long did it last, how you pulled it off while still with you H, what you told him during the affair and after the affair, how did d day come about, how it ended. With that perhaps we can help you understand why he is still acting out.

[Jonah]

I'm just wondering.....

 

Is this an affair loophole?

 

I mean...is cheating always the worst thing a human can do.....UNLESS someone else has done it first. Are we all accountable and 100% responsible for our own actions...EXCEPT when someone cheated on us?

 

Don't get me wrong. Cheating is ALWAYS wrong and it is ALWAYS a choice. I know that. I'm not the one who is bending the rules.

 

I'm just looking for some clarification here.

 

I don't give a pass to cheaters - it is inexcusable - and by cheaters I mean the people who cheat ON AND the people who cheat WITH. But I don't give a pass to moral relativism and rule bending based on projection either.

 

An absolute is either an absolute or it's not.

 

So which is it?

 

I don't think she is asking for a pass, just advise.

[janedoe67]

SHE isn't asking for a pass...but lots of people who supposedly abhor infidelity seem to be giving HIM one.

[It-is-what-it-is.]

Katielee,

Your affair was wrong, you get that. Your husbands affairs were wrong, maybe he doesn't get that, maybe he does...but doesn't care.

 

I dont really believe that either of you have recovered from any of the three affairs.

 

To really recover, It is almost as if you have to handle and address each one separately, and not as a consequense or excuse for the others.

 

Are you guys in therapy with an infidelity specialist? I cannot imagine that a good therapist wouldn't call BS on his remark about your PTSD.

 

But ultimately maybe this much damage from affairs and poor coping skills is just too much to fix, especially if you both aren't really committed to fixing it.

[Betterthanthis13]

SHE isn't asking for a pass...but lots of people who supposedly abhor infidelity seem to be giving HIM one.

 

Your point is not lost on me. Im sure I've been guilty of that kind of thinking at one point or another.

[road]

 

My husband didn't have an affair because I had one, he had one because he couldn't deal with the stress, anger and emasculation of what happened. This is all on him.

 

 

 

 

Your BH became a WH because your affair emasculated him.

 

Cause and effect.

 

 

 

You chose to have an affair. You had other choices you could make. You made the worst choice possible.

 

Your BH/WH had other paths to take. As you did he took the worst path.

 

You will have to work pass that your WH had to have two affairs to best you. How foolish to think that do better then your opponent you have to do more bad deeds.

 

If you and your BH/WH have answered each other's questions about the all the affairs. Then it is time to stop talking about the affairs.

 

To move forward and leave the affairs in the past the both off you have to let the affair's fade. Continued rehashing about the affairs will only get the memories and pain fresh.

 

The best place for you and your BH/WH to recover your marriage is to get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley.

[katielee]

My affair was with a co/worker. I confessed after three weeks, took it underground for a month then ended it. Told husband about that too. He was crushed....understandably.., afraid to kick me out for fear id run to OM. OM now lives 4 hours away. He was basically run out of town by my husband and I'm glad he's gone.

 

I have read that book, been to the marriage builders forums and do not agree with that philosophy. I need to be able to talk about it occasionally, as not talking about our feelings led us here in the first place. Not do I believe affsirs are caused by not meeting emotional needs. They're caused by broken ppl not fixing their stuff.

 

Thank you for posting everyone, I understand that the situation is bleak. When we go to MC soon I will bring up the comment about causing my own trauma.

[Try]

we could have healed from one (mine)but adding two more was the worse thing that could happen.

I bet that your husband would disagree, because from his point of view, your affair was the "was the worse thing that could happen", since it was the one that first damaged your marraige; to him his was just follow up damage to an already damaged relationship. From his point of view, your husband cheating with 2 different women just 3 months apart, could be viewed as a single revenge cheating phase, that compares to your 2 months where you cheated, got caught and cheated again but with the same person. This theme of yours that your husband's cheating was worse than your cheating is prevalent throughout your posts, and is what is holding you back. In your first post on this thread you even say that "I have not forgiven him. he says he has forgiven me", although you try to question this by saying that "although to me that means never getting angry and he does" (to me forgiveness does not mean never getting angry, as forgiveness is more about what you do with this anger). As long as you keep on insisting that he acknowledge that his cheating was worse than yours, when he does not beleive this, you will never move forward.

 

You have acknowledged your differences on how you view events when you stated in your first post to this thread that "I think of him as someone who was very angry and justified his actions based on my actions. Does he realize that was wrong - not really". That summons up the problem nicely. He will not acknowledge that your cheating as being the moral superior to his cheating, and this makes you mad. This is never going to change as he thinks otherwise. Stop trying to validate your questionable viewpoint that your husband's cheating was worse than your cheating, and focus instead on doing what needs to be done to fix your marraige. Ask yourself this question. Can you move forward without your husband conceding to your point of view on this issue if you both agree to not to cheat again going forward?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Try

[katielee]

Try -I don't even know where to start. HE's the one who said the next two affairs were the worst that could happen!

I don't think my affair was morally superior- what the heck? I actually think mine was worse. And I didn't get caught, I confessed... wth?

at any rate, maybe he's a better person than me, who knows....if he's better at forgiveness so be it. I am a different person and I am not so good at it. I know that about myself.

there is no concession to make but that all cheating is wrong. I'm hardly worried about cheating again by him. I'm worried about how I can live with what has happened.

I'm asking here if a good enough marriage is good enough. I'm tired of debating the other crap.

[whatatangledweb]

Try -I don't even know where to start. HE's the one who said the next two affairs were the worst that could happen!

I don't think my affair was morally superior- what the heck? I actually think mine was worse. And I didn't get caught, I confessed... wth?

at any rate, maybe he's a better person than me, who knows....if he's better at forgiveness so be it. I am a different person and I am not so good at it. I know that about myself.

there is no concession to make but that all cheating is wrong. I'm hardly worried about cheating again by him. I'm worried about how I can live with what has happened.

I'm asking here if a good enough marriage is good enough. I'm tired of debating the other crap.

 

Ask yourself honestly whether you would be happier with him or without him. Look at it from on angles and then move in that direction. For me I want a happy and healthy marriage so good enough would not be enough for me.

[Artie Lang]

the mere fact that you are here debating this issue(again) indicates that you are not happy within your marriage.

 

i suggest you take a step back and critically analyze your situation. you may need to cut your losses and "call it a day" with this man.

 

obviously, this situation isn't "good enough" for you at this point.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Artie Lang

[Zenstudent]

Try -I don't even know where to start. HE's the one who said the next two affairs were the worst that could happen!

I don't think my affair was morally superior- what the heck? I actually think mine was worse. And I didn't get caught, I confessed... wth?

at any rate, maybe he's a better person than me, who knows....if he's better at forgiveness so be it. I am a different person and I am not so good at it. I know that about myself.

there is no concession to make but that all cheating is wrong. I'm hardly worried about cheating again by him. I'm worried about how I can live with what has happened.

I'm asking here if a good enough marriage is good enough. I'm tired of debating the other crap.

Here's some random thoughts of mine.

 

Some people say that you can have an even better marriage after infidelity - I've yet to see it happen in my case. But what it definitely takes, is for the two of you to work through this vicious cheating-cycle - not just leave it behind. If you don't go in depth with both of your bad choices, coping and communication skills, I would say that you can't expect more than the prospect of a good enough marriage - at best.

 

I'm a bit ambivalent on the "good-enough" thing though... because what defines good and what defines good enough? What I've learned from being cheated on is that the fantasy of a rose colored romantic relationship, the fairy tale if you like, is just that, in your head, a fantasy.

 

So, could "good enough" in the real world be judged as really good? Isn't it all what you make of it? Who's to say - but you? You could choose to say "This is what I have, and I'll make damn sure that I appreciate every minute of it" - or you could choose to say "I tried this, it doesn't work for me, I think I'll try another one, move on".

 

Anyway, whatever you decide, I think you need to work through the infidelities first, because you haven't. I think you've grown and learned from your choice to cheat, and you realize that nothing justifies cheating, not even cheating. But I get the impression that you resent your husband for not getting this - welcome to the world of BS.

 

Counselling for the two of you, MC?