Invitation to Rape?

[midori]

Originally posted by uriel

Even so, the per capita incidents in conservative countries are dramatically lower. Your qualification doesn't negate the dramatic slant of the evidence.

 

Why are incidents of incest much fewer than rape in the US? It's taboo. Similarly, in these middle-eastern, conservative Muslim countries, it's taboo.

 

The victims of incest -- most often children -- are much more powerless to report it for a variety of reasons. Under-reporting of a crime simply makes it invisible, it doesn't diminish occurrences. And in conservative countries where women are controlled by their husbands and male relatives, reporting rape will be just as -- if not more -- difficult than for a child in the U.S. to report incest. Because as you noted in your earlier post, honor killings and other types of awful punishments for women who were raped, are not uncommon in conservative Muslim cultures. The common theme is: women are to blame if they're raped.

[moimeme]

The common theme is: women are to blame if they're raped.

 

Exactly. And then they're killed for infidelity. You can bet that very few women will report rape under those circumstances.

[shamen]

Originally posted by midori

 

It's good and necessary to point out repeatedly the ways that women should take care of themselves. I wish that conversation happened more often, without sounding like a moral condemnation of women who want to be able to go out and have fun without suffering anything other than a hang-over the next day. Or to walk in the park by herself. Or.... [insert activity that woman was engaged in when she was raped]. It's unfortunate that these discussions rarely take place unless someone has first raised the issue of rape -- their own awful experience with it, or, as in this case, talking about someone else's rape with the implication that perhaps she could have done something to prevent it.

 

Thank you again for your post, Midori. It is hard to hear people talk about protecting themselves and making me feel (and countless other people) that there was something I could have done to prevent my date rape. Now, maybe I was stupid for getting in that car with that boy, but he was my boyfriend. I don't want to have to explain all the time why I did what I did. But I trusted him.

 

I'll never be able to go back and fix that moment. There was nothing I could have done to prevent it. I have to keep reminding myself of that, that it's not my fault. Because somehow these discussions always seem like blame, even when they are not intended to. I start to think, if only I hadn't have gotten in that car with that person, then I could have prevented my rape. No, no, no. I can't think like this: it's not my fault. And this happened to me almost 20 years ago. No offense anyone. I know this conversation is not intended to make me feel bad, but it IS hard to discuss. I'm trying to stay objective.

 

Perhaps what we should be talking about, is, as Midori pointed out, that we should be doing something more about thieves, or in this case, rapists. What can we do about the rapists? Write to our congressmen/women/people? Tell our stories?

 

PS... Hate to bring this up, but in another rape thread, we were reminded to use gender neutral language when we talk about rape in general. Sorry everybody!

[SoleMate]

Moose...based on what you have said...and your alluring look in your photo that you flaunt so temptingly...I am tempted to anally violate you with a large, dirty wrench. Afterwards, I may beat you to death with it.

 

Hope you understand the role you will play in this crime.

 

(TO ALL THE REGULARS: Yeah, I know SoleMate doesn't usually talk like this. She's usually pretty cool. But Moose set her off, so she's not responsible.)

[midori]

Originally posted by shamen

 

PS... Hate to bring this up, but in another rape thread, we were reminded to use gender neutral language when we talk about rape in general. Sorry everybody!

 

That's a fair point. I think I did allude earlier in this thread to the fact that men & boys get raped too. But I wonder, on the rare occasions one hears about male rapes (outside of prison) -- and I assume they're rarely mentioned because they are so taboo -- does anyone suggest that the victim was asking for it? I don't know, because I've never actually heard a conversation about it. But I get the feeling -- and this is only my intuition -- that it's generally recognized that the violation was entirely against the victim's will. Part of the humiliation for him, perhaps, that he could be so fundamentally violated because he was unable to fight off another man/men. At least it's expected that a woman would have difficulty fending off an attacker.

 

I live in the Boston area, and in the last few years there have been lots of publicized stories about boys who were sodomized by Catholic priests ten, twenty, thirty years ago. There were cover-ups when the crimes were reported, and many victims didn't speak up at the time of their rapes, out of shame and fear. Perhaps they feared that others would assume that they "asked for it," i.e. that they had homosexual tendencies. But I must say I cannot recall, in the score of anecdotes I've heard and read, anyone suggesting that the boys had been incautious in putting themselves into situations where they could be abused. Rather, the outcry has been about the Catholic Church allowing known sexual predators to remain out of prison and actively serving in parishes. I don't recall anyone suggesting steps that men and boys should routinely take to avoid being victims of sexual assault, and certainly not with the insinuation that if they fail to take sufficient precautions, that they're asking to be raped.

 

So -- and this is just my opinion -- it kind of seems to me that while there's undoubtedly some overlap about the assumptions people make about male & female rape victims, people don't always wonder whether a man did something to invite his own rape. I don't doubt that being raped is just as awful for men as it is for women. I'm just saying I've never heard the "invitation to rape" theory applied to a male rape victim. I might be wrong there. But if not, then it's not really necessary to use the gender neutral language that is appropriate in broader rape discussions. Or so it seems to me.

[midori]

Originally posted by shamen

 

Perhaps what we should be talking about, is, as Midori pointed out, that we should be doing something more about thieves, or in this case, rapists. What can we do about the rapists? Write to our congressmen/women/people? Tell our stories?

 

 

I think it's conversations like these that help, little bit by little bit. Maybe a couple of men have read this thread and gained a new perspective about some of the assumptions they held about women and rape. I have to say that, while Moose expressed a view that offended many people, I think he did us a service by being brave enough to give voice to an idea that he had, knowing that he might be opening himself up to a lot of harsh rebukes. I hope Moose has found this thread to be useful for his own understanding of his wife's rape. While I obviously didn't agree with his initial premise, I appreciate that he couched it respectfully. I think it took a lot of guts to reveal that on these boards.

[uriel]

I don't think we are essentially in disagreement, Midori -- except I still contend that cultural pressure makes rape less common in conservative religious countries, despite obviously likely reporting discrepancies (which exist in many other forms of society, such as, I point out again, many of the African nations that top the list -- where women are equally stigmatized and likely disowned or killed). As a professional researcher, I am not unaware of the statistical drift underreporting causes.

 

My concern is that we have become so politically sensitized as women to fighting the charge that "she was asking for it" that we are often now afraid to urge other women, especially younger women, strongly enough to take care of themselves by using common sense (not drinking in public, not riding with strange men, not going to places alone with men or groups of men barely known, not dressing provocatively in mixed company where a woman can't ensure her protection from unwanted attention, etc.). When we do urge other women to use caution, we are accused of blaming the victim and making rape victims feel guilty for not having prevented the crime against them. The point of such promptings isn't this at all.

 

I'm absolutely in agreement that women don't invite rape -- just as children don't invite sexual child abuse. And, I'll say as a victim of child sexual abuse that I'm fully aware there's not much children or women can do once a perpetrator has set them in his sights. We can't be so hyper vigilant or so capable of using counter-force, etc. that we avoid these violations in advance.

 

All we can do as women, and as parents of children, is to do our best to give them sound advice and watch out for one another. That's on an individual level. On a more corporate level, we can fight for greater police sensitivity, finances at the state level for the testing and databasing of rape kits (a MAJOR problem in enforcement), better legislation -- including mandatory treatment and tracking of offenders, and so on.

 

-- uriel

 

ps And yes, of course, boys and men are sexually abused (mainly by other men). This is less common for adult men than adult women (outside of prison), statistically speaking. But, it is also often an underreported crime, one that still carries more social stigma and may be treated with insensitivity. One of the complicating factors is that male rapes often involve objects other than the penis as a form of humiliation (happens to women in power rapes, too, but even more so in the case of men). So, the crime is often labeled as an assault rather than a sexual assault.

[Sick0Kitten]

Just a reply to Derranged Angel (sp?)

I hear what your saying! I haven't been through rape myself exactly, was almost raped by a close friend - i felt a similar way that whatever mistakes you made that day doesn't right someone else's wrong, and the punishment they put onto you.

 

You sound like a really interesting person, i am only this by the way you were so thoughtful in your response. '

You werent angry or acting on impulse, just saying it liek it is. I wish I had that method of behaviour!

 

anyways, I hope you and everyone else on this thread is going well.

I'm new to the forums.

 

Hheeh and I dress funky/street wear and i listen to dance music - but does that mean I should be drugged when out ?

(not erally in the same ballpark as teh rape and dressing thing but still a relevant point)

[LikkleMissConfused]

I understand the way your thinking Moose but there is no excuse for commiting a crime such as rape.

 

Yes western women do dress in a open fashion. I myself am indian and in y culture you shoudl cover yourself up moderately. WHen I was younger I would show much more of my body off, now I am aware of the kind of attention that attracts and frankly I don't want it so I will dress appropriately.

 

I understnad your point but its a free country and people shoudl wear want they want. Men are responsible for their urges and women are responsible for the impression that they give and what they wear.

[Fayebelle]

Originally posted by SoleMate

Moose...based on what you have said...and your alluring look in your photo that you flaunt so temptingly...I am tempted to anally violate you with a large, dirty wrench. Afterwards, I may beat you to death with it.

 

Hope you understand the role you will play in this crime.

 

(TO ALL THE REGULARS: Yeah, I know SoleMate doesn't usually talk like this. She's usually pretty cool. But Moose set her off, so she's not responsible.)

 

 

SM- I understand why this topic angers but please consider the tone of the question and further posts from the member before attacking- Moose was looking for info to understand his wife's thinking- he has since received info and seen the error of his origional assumptions

 

Attacking men who genuinely seek to understand a woman's perspective is not helpful in educating the gender. Why would they ever ask questions if they felt they would only be answered w/hostility?

 

Had he continued defending his origional view than I would be right beside you arguing him to the ground- as it is- he has learned and will now be better equipped to support his wife and counter other attitudes that mimic his origional thinking.

 

To me that is a victory for all women.

[EC]

I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone at all. It was merely a question

 

Thanks hokey, that opened my eyes to a lot......man, even I can be an insensitive person......

 

I hope all of you understand that I'm just trying to learn.....

 

Solemate he didn't mean to offend anyone and he was just learning.

 

There was no need for that attack.

 

Bad solemate...

[Moose]

Thank you Faye,

 

I don't mean to offend anyone at all.....I HAVE learned, and it's my goal to continue to learn.....I'm usually pretty quick to admit I'm wrong about something.

 

Knowledge to me is a gift, just like every day that I wake up is a gift, I'm untying the bow and looking at the contents within the box.

 

I know now the views from the female gender why my wife took offense to my comments. I sought, I found and I thank you all.

 

P.S. SoulMate.....in reference to my avatar.....you only see my face.....here's the WHOLE picture:

 

 

The:

 

alluring look that I flaunt so temptingly is because I'm with the love of my life.....next time....don't take my picture at face value unless you know what you're talking about....you didn't know, so I don't blame you, but please, don't even try to apologize.

[midori]

Originally posted by uriel

I don't think we are essentially in disagreement, Midori -- except I still contend that cultural pressure makes rape less common in conservative religious countries, despite obviously likely reporting discrepancies (which exist in many other forms of society, such as, I point out again, many of the African nations that top the list -- where women are equally stigmatized and likely disowned or killed).

 

Right, but again, in keeping with the theme of this thread, underlying the conservative norms that prevail in certain cultures is the assumption that rape prevention is the woman's responsibility and if she fails to prevent being raped she is at fault. I'll accept your premise for argument's sake that the occurrences of rape in conservative Muslim countries are indeed lower than they are in the West -- but if that's true, it coincides with women being less valued, as individuals and collectively, and with far fewer rights.

 

My concern is that we have become so politically sensitized as women to fighting the charge that "she was asking for it" that we are often now afraid to urge other women, especially younger women, strongly enough to take care of themselves by using common sense (not drinking in public, not riding with strange men, not going to places alone with men or groups of men barely known, not dressing provocatively in mixed company where a woman can't ensure her protection from unwanted attention, etc.). When we do urge other women to use caution, we are accused of blaming the victim and making rape victims feel guilty for not having prevented the crime against them. The point of such promptings isn't this at all.

 

I completely agree with this. I've said as much in other threads. As I said earlier, there is a fine but dangerous line between offering advice for prudency (not to be confused with prudery ) and suggesting that the victim was to blame. I think the line is blurred not only by those who are inclined to think that maybe the woman was just a little bit at fault for her rape, but also by those who too narrowly focus on the principle that "no means no," thus failing to see that, as true as that is, that might not be of much help to the nineteen-year-old who's been partying at a frat house and drunkenly went upstairs to a bedroom with an equally inebriated young man. For the record, that's not how all rapes occur. But to ignore the fact that they do sometimes occur in such circumstances is to basically say that such instances are insignificant in the face of the rapes of women who couldn't have prevented them from happening. Sometimes in these discussions it seems that people think that stating the principle of "no means no" negates the need to remind women that ideals don't always function in the real world (especially when drugs and alcohol are in the mix). ... but you can see why people are so vehement in asserting that the victim is not to blame, when ideas that women might be inviting rape are floating around.

 

I think that people need to discuss rape with a bit more openness to the context of the discussion. I think it's inappropriate to respond to a rape victim by telling her how she could have avoided getting into that situation -- even if it's not directed at her but meant to be a more general caution to other women (you think they're not thinking about it anyway? When there's a plane crash lots of people, if not most people, have second thoughts about flying, without anyone prompting them to consider the dangers of boarding a plane. In fact the media message is typically to remind everyone how rare, statistically speaking, plane crashes are and how generally safe air travel is.). I think people need to be more sensitive to the context, and respond accordingly, instead of with canned messages that serve their agenda, but not necessarily the needs of the person who started the conversation.

 

 

I'm absolutely in agreement that women don't invite rape -- just as children don't invite sexual child abuse. And, I'll say as a victim of child sexual abuse that I'm fully aware there's not much children or women can do once a perpetrator has set them in his sights. We can't be so hyper vigilant or so capable of using counter-force, etc. that we avoid these violations in advance.

 

That's the truth.

[uriel]

Midori,

 

[color=blue]in keeping with the theme of this thread, underlying the conservative norms that prevail in certain cultures is the assumption that rape prevention is the woman's responsibility and if she fails to prevent being raped she is at fault. I'll accept your premise for argument's sake that the occurrences of rape in conservative Muslim countries are indeed lower than they are in the West -- but if that's true, it coincides with women being less valued, as individuals and collectively, and with far fewer rights. [/color]

 

Of course, I agree. In such cultures (and our own historically) there's a strange valuing of the IDEAL of womanhood, with a subsequent limitation and all too often denigration of womanhood in PERSON. The ideal woman is inviolate. So, if she is violated, it must be her fault. Or, even if it is accepted that she is not to blame, she is now damaged goods -- not fit for a man of honor. Women's bodies in such societies become the locus for men's anxieties of purity and thus -- social control -- that goes beyond sexual and procreative dominance, which are also a factor. It becomes about shoring up their self-definition and thus the definition of the extended patriarchal culture.

 

[color=blue]I think it's inappropriate to respond to a rape victim by telling her how she could have avoided getting into that situation -- even if it's not directed at her but meant to be a more general caution to other women (you think they're not thinking about it anyway? [/color]

 

I was expanding the discussion away from Moose's initial question because I became concerned about some of the negative response to the basis of his question at all.

 

I do think that this line -- about women needing to take care -- is an insensitive and inappropriate response to a rape victim after the fact. The rape cannot be undone. Further, the woman didn't ask for it, not by any aspect of her behavior. Rape is NEVER excusable on any grounds, nor is the woman to blame for a man's decision to act violently -- not even a little.

 

Anyone who has seen Jodi Foster in /The Accused/, which is an extraordinary film that takes up this very topic, comes away feeling profoundly that however risque her character might have been in that film, she did nothing that signaled those men they could use her, hurt her, as they did. That was their depraved and despicable choice. So too do viewers come away with that feeling in /Girls Don't Cry/, in which the rapists reason that she's been holding out on them, confusing them sexually, etc. Horrible. The film makers in both cases have done an excellent job of underscoring what a violent act, and what a violation, rape is. For those of us who have survived sexual abuse and rape, we are only validated further in our own lack of choice or responsibility by such portrayals.

 

However, I do think it is appropriate as a general caution to women. Young women especially, those prone to risky behaviors, do need to think about it more in my experience. I've worked for twenty years with a traditional college-aged population. You'd be surprised at the fool things they do -- things that would turn their parents' hair white. Believe me, they need reminding and reminding and reminding that they are not invincible, that even sweet-faced boys are after sex, that getting drunk in public lets their guard down, etc.

 

The sorts of arguments we've heard here -- that women should be able to walk naked down the street if they want to and that its up to men to control themselves no matter what women do to provoke sexually-oriented responses -- alarm me. Rape is a violent crime, but it's one that springs from a sexual impulse. For the sake of pragmatism, I again say we cannot assume that what is right or even our rights will be honored and respected. We need to take care as we can and teach our sisters and daughters to do the same. If we're to enjoy the benefits of a liberal, open society, especially one as violent as the United States', we need to understand that there is a personal cost to protecting our own safety -- which is self-imposed care and restraint. It's not about prudery. Women should enjoy their sexuality without shame. But, they should do it wisely, so that they avoid getting hurt as much as is possible.

 

-- uriel

[shamen]

Originally posted by uriel

 

However, I do think it is appropriate as a general caution to women. Young women especially, those prone to risky behaviors, do need to think about it more in my experience. I've worked for twenty years with a traditional college-aged population. You'd be surprised at the fool things they do -- things that would turn their parents' hair white. Believe me, they need reminding and reminding and reminding that they are not invincible, that even sweet-faced boys are after sex, that getting drunk in public lets their guard down, etc.

 

The sorts of arguments we've heard here -- that women should be able to walk naked down the street if they want to and that its up to men to control themselves no matter what women do to provoke sexually-oriented responses -- alarm me. Rape is a violent crime, but it's one that springs from a sexual impulse. For the sake of pragmatism, I again say we cannot assume that what is right or even our rights will be honored and respected. We need to take care as we can and teach our sisters and daughters to do the same. If we're to enjoy the benefits of a liberal, open society, especially one as violent as the United States', we need to understand that there is a personal cost to protecting our own safety -- which is self-imposed care and restraint. It's not about prudery. Women should enjoy their sexuality without shame. But, they should do it wisely, so that they avoid getting hurt as much as is possible.

 

-- uriel

 

I agree that we need to caution women, however the problem comes when you look at the statistics. Most rapes are pre-planned. Most people who are raped know their attacker. How can one be cautioned against that? One can only do so much, really, in the grand scheme of things.

[uriel]

There are many different types of rapes. Predatory, stranger rapes often do have a planned component. In such a case, women can't do much to prevent the assault except locking doors and windows (not always effective as we all know) and not going out alone at risky times and in risky areas (again, no guarantee). Like all criminals, rapists look for an opportunity to violate others without getting caught. Increase that risk and you decrease yours.

 

Rapes that occur in more spontaneous crowd environments (concerts, frat houses) are more readily guarded against (have a buddy system, don't get drunk, keep a cell phone on hand) -- as are rapes of opportunity that occur when women have participated in risky behavior (such as getting drunk and allowing men they don't know well to "take them home").

 

Date rapes are much more complicated. The victim has often (reasonably) felt some trust toward the assailant -- has no reason to suspect he will force himself on her. She's acting in line with usual dating behavior. He's the one who crosses it without invitation. Date rapes in my view are often the least easily guarded against because of these factors.

 

Obviously, if a woman has accepted a date with a near stranger, someone not well known by her friends and family, then she's at more of a risk for his feeling free to act out. She needs to be especially cautious. Even then, there's no guarantee. A friend of mine was raped by a young man a male friend of hers had brought home from college for a visit. He vouched for this friend (who it turns out he actually didn't know very well, except as a drinking buddy) when the friend offered to give her a ride home. He drove her way out in the country and threatened to leave her there if she didn't go along with his demands. Even when a police car stopped to see what was up, she was too stunned to say anything. She'd just been raped and let the officer go away, thinking the whole thing was her fault for accepting the ride.

 

Women too, as many college training and rape assault programs teach, can be sure they are being clear about how far they are willing to go before things heat up. The education of men about honoring "no" -- regardless of whether it seems to have been led up to with "yes" or circumstances otherwise give mixed signals-- is especially important in this context.

 

This is common sense. Women can do some things to lessen their chances of being raped. Even then, I acknowledge there's no guarantee their precautions will be effective. Why do you not want to accept this?

 

-- uriel

[midori]

Uriel,

 

I'm with you 100%. Especially this last bit:

 

Originally posted by uriel

 

The sorts of arguments we've heard here -- that women should be able to walk naked down the street if they want to and that its up to men to control themselves no matter what women do to provoke sexually-oriented responses -- alarm me. Rape is a violent crime, but it's one that springs from a sexual impulse. For the sake of pragmatism, I again say we cannot assume that what is right or even our rights will be honored and respected. We need to take care as we can and teach our sisters and daughters to do the same. If we're to enjoy the benefits of a liberal, open society, especially one as violent as the United States', we need to understand that there is a personal cost to protecting our own safety -- which is self-imposed care and restraint. It's not about prudery. Women should enjoy their sexuality without shame. But, they should do it wisely, so that they avoid getting hurt as much as is possible.

 

-- uriel

 

cheers,

midori

[shamen]

Originally posted by uriel

This is common sense. Women can do some things to lessen their chances of being raped. Even then, I acknowledge there's no guarantee their precautions will be effective. Why do you not want to accept this?

 

-- uriel

 

I do accept that there are things that we can all do to lessen our chances, but that's really all it is, is a lessening. I am convinced that my date rape was pre-planned and I knew him fairly well.

 

So, it's not that I'm arguing that we shouldn't do things to protect ourselves, but I also know that there's only so much we can do. And I accept that.

 

I'm not totally sure what you mean when you ask, "Why do you not want to accept this?"

 

I guess that it still hits a raw nerve when we talk about all of the things that we can do to protect ourselves and still people get raped. I knew all the rules, but it didn't help. That's really all I'm saying.

 

Yes, people do need to be educated about what to do to try and avoid rape, but I don't know that we can always avoid it. We also need to be there for the victims once it does happen and not discuss things that s/he could have done differently.

 

I too laud Moose for his courage to talk about this with us all and learn. Maybe that's why I still keep coming back to the rape threads, as a way to put behind me the defensiveness that I get when talking about protecting ourselves.

 

Peace, Shamen

[uriel]

Right, Shamen. We can't always prevent sexual abuse or rape. We can only try to lessen our chances of becoming victims.

 

We also need to focus on how children and women who have been victimized can begin to recover their sense of self-trust and safety in the world. I myself was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse. It's not an easy road to recovery. Sometimes, I think advising others about how they can best avoid assault, even if there's no guarantee they will, is therapeutic. So, too, can sharing our experiences of this terrible form of crime.

 

I hope Moose was able to share some of what he learned with his wife. She's definitely not alone -- or to blame.

 

-- uriel

[uriel]

Really enjoyed talking with you on this, Midori. Smart discussion -- kept me on my toes and gave me much to consider and reconsider.

 

-- uriel

[FolderWife]

Ya know what! YES YES YES!!! I agree that if a woman wears skimpy clothes, and lets herself be alone with a guy, and makes him hot and bothered (aka, a pillow fight) then she isn't using the best judgement. I mean, come ON!!! If ya don't want to have sex with a guy, don't lead him on! If he's a sicko, and you've pushed him to want it just a little bit, then what do you expect!?!?! I don't condone rape. I don't think any rapist should get anything short of the chair. I don't think any woman ASKS for it....but I believe that all women should use extreme caution now days.

 

No it's not fair! BUT FREAKING BE CAREFUL!!!!!!! DON'T WEAR SOMETHING SKIMPY, UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO BE IN A GROUP OF PEOPLE.

 

We aren't even safe with our boyfriends any more.....how many men would it take to beat him up, and rape us??? Especially if the guys have a gun.

 

I was at a party recently, with people that I work with. I was showing this 375lb man to the bathroom, and turned around, and we were completely alone, and he was looking at me funny. He was a little drunk. My instinct said, "GET AWAY FROM HIM AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!" I don't think he would've raped me. I don't think he would've done anything...but I wasn't sticking around to find out.

 

USE COMMON SENSE!!!

 

I agree with the topic. I don't think the poster was trying to say anyone deserves to be raped. I think he was saying that women need to be more aware of the image they are putting out there.

[Guest]

Uh oh...here we go again.....

[sami]

I believe the way women dress is a contributing factor. If girls do not agree with this basic fact that is their problem. when men get aroused they loose control.

[midori]

Originally posted by sami

when men get aroused they loose control.

 

Then men need to be controlled by something else. What do you suggest: muzzle & leash? Electronic collar worn around the neck that can administer a sharp (but harmless) zap when they get out of line -- as one uses for some dogs? Perhaps they should not be allowed to go anywhere without their mothers or wives.

 

It's a man's responsibility to control himself. If he finds himself being provoked unfairly by a woman who tries to use her sexuality to manipulate, he can make a mental note to have nothing to do with her. When she walks into a bar, he can ignore her, or even leave. She'd probably figure out pretty quickly that her m.o. wasn't working.

 

Drunks lose control when they have alcohol -- they can't stop with just one drink. Is that the bar or liquor store's fault? Who do you blame there?

 

And let's be clear about that generalization: not all men lose control when they are sexually aroused. Only those too immature or irresponsible to be in control of themselves.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by sami

I believe the way women dress is a contributing factor. If girls do not agree with this basic fact that is their problem. when men get aroused they loose control.

 

this response really scares the hell out of me.

 

let me tell you something. men are responsible for controlling themselves. men who rape do it because of the control and power and violence. it IS about control but not the loss of a man's control but a man having perceived control over a woman. never blame a woman for a man's crime.