How long until the plague of religion goes away?

[Emilia]

Around the time of Hitler (30s and 40s) antisemitism was rife around the world including in the US. A lot of Christians had an intense dislike of Jews History of antisemitism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[BetheButterfly]

all christians twist christianity. it's designed to be twisted into whatever you want it to be.

 

kings in the dark ages twisted it into crusades. then the kings became popes and bishops and twisted it into eliminating political opposition with inquisitions. hitler twisted it into killing jews. the early americans twisted it into killing native americans. the same bigots who twisted it into supporting segregation in the 1950s now twist it into the bigotry against homosexuals.

 

it never ends. it is an evil religion ripe with evil people. non evil people following and participating just furthers the goals of the evil ones.

 

we'll be better off when it doesn't exist outside of a history book.

 

and no i'm not singling them out. the only difference in islam and christianity is rural islam is at the same place christianity was a couple hundred years ago. christians have no basis to condemn honor killings and stonings when they were doing the SAME THING in salem massachusetts just a short time ago.

 

Not twisting means to obey. There are Christians who do obey Jesus' teachings. Jesus specifically commanded to love God, love others, and love even one's enemies. Twisting means disobedience. There are other Christians who disobey Jesus' teachings.

 

Jesus didn't kill anyone. He did rebuke the religious leaders of his day, but he did not condemn the people they condemned. Instead of killing, Jesus healed people and taught people. That's what people need. They don't need to be killed. Instead of killing, Jesus was killed, though Christians believe God raised him to life again on the third day.

[BetheButterfly]

Around the time of Hitler (30s and 40s) antisemitism was rife around the world including in the US. A lot of Christians had an intense dislike of Jews History of antisemitism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

That is something I personally do not understand, because Jesus (whose real name is something like Yeshua) is Jewish.

Mary is Jewish. Joseph is Jewish. Jesus' 12 apostles are all Jewish. Paul is Jewish.

 

When Gentiles begin to officially believe in Jesus, that surprised but pleased Jewish people, including Peter, one of the Jesus' apostles. (Acts 10 and Acts 15).

 

However, later on in time, corrupt Gentiles begin to twist Christianity, instead of following Jesus. That is when hatred against Jesus' people, the Jews, begin to spread among Gentile "Christians."

[strongnrelaxed]

I think a bigger point is being missed here. Religions are nothing more than myths. If there are a few believers, they are deemed a cult. If they get past a certain number of followers, they are deemed a religion.

 

These groups, with their blind followers, are ripe for the picking by politicians and despots alike. How many more examples need to be shown for goodness sake people. Please - turn off American Idol, shut down the laptop and read some history books. There are so man examples throughout history that once you step back from your emotions about these things, it starts becoming clear that we are tools.

 

There is no real hope in all of this because of one fundamental lie. The biggie of all time... that the bad guys will get their comeuppance in the afterlife. If only! So they continue to get away with evil and we all sit in our smug complacency - confident in the knowledge that God will sort them out.

 

The problem is that they know better. They know that we have one life. They make sure that their heirs are well taken care of, and that Your heirs and mine are subject to school budget cuts and increasing taxes.

 

And we pray for them! And elect them!

 

I am just dumbfounded by the sheer audacity and the blind willingness by so many to just go along with this.

 

This is so sad and disturbing. There are so few people willing to challenge this sickness. That is the true evil in the world.

[strongnrelaxed]

I'm kind of dumbfounded by the fact that you made a thread about finding common ground...and yet make absolutely no attempt to find it yourself.

 

Calling religions nothing more than "myths" is highly disrespectful. That is why we can't find common ground-because atheists diminish our beliefs down to nothing more than fairytales, and make no attempt to meet halfway.

 

 

I mean no disrespect.

 

I humbly ask that you consider a thought. Many Muslims, I have found, are raised to be extremely defensive about their religion and symbols. Even the slighted insult is met with extreme violence, terrorism and murder. All on behalf of their religion. And they are not the only ones. I am not picking on them. It is just so blatant and obvious to everyone but them that it is an easy point to make. Most Christians can observe this from the outside and recognize how destructive this is.

 

What Christian fail to realize is that their own behaviors are only slightly less extreme than this. In modern times there is less violence, but still much judgment and defensiveness. So much righteous indignation and arrogance.

 

Outsiders can see this about Christianity, but insiders just tend to feel insulted all the time. Fortunately it is not as bad as Islam. But that is only because we live in a secular nation and not a theocracy,

 

No amount of reason, proof, honesty, candor, reality, data or evidence has ever helped on iota to get a believer to understand that their religion is just another one of hundreds of other religions.

 

When an atheist or other non-believer (pick your label) looks at religions and discussed them in scientific, sociological or psychological terms, it can feel insulting to believers. All religions are built on myths. This is not a belief, or an opinion, or a perspective, or illusion. It is a simple fact. In fact, some religious leaders have conceded/admitted this. It is just how the whole thing works. Even a cursory examination of history can prove this. Believers are typically not interested in facts or history unless it supports their belief system. That is just how it all works.

 

The good news is that you are free to worship in any one of a number of traditions - mormonism, scientology, the sun, ra, athena, the holy ghost, allah, mohammed, abraham, any of the Aztec gods, any of the Roman gods, any of the Greek gods, any of the Incan gods, Jesus....whew! Well you get the idea.

 

You likely do not believe in any of those gods except one. So you admit to being atheistic to all of those hundreds of other gods. I too refrain from indulging in a belief in all those gods so we have that in common. We are all atheists in terms of the countless dieties that have ever been invented by man - I will just go you one more.

 

I am not trying to be insulting here. If you feel insulted you might ask yourself why you feel that way. Most Muslims are incapable of asking that question as are most Christians in my experience. But that is not MY fault. I did not make you defensive, and I do not support that practice, perspective or the beliefs that underlie them.

 

I meant no disrespect, and I am trying to have an honest intellectual discussion. Why would a decent rational person find that insulting?

 

Reflect on this. Or at least try. I am asking nicely as a fellow human being.

 

Please try. You can do it - I know you can.

 

This is the one area in which I can admit to having faith. That my fellow human beings can rise above this and use their minds to make such distinctions and not their emotions.

 

Can you reflect on this and reply in a respectful, non judgmental non defensive way?

[strongnrelaxed]

 

The true evil in the world is man-made, not God made....we are the ones who can make it better...I actually think if more people ...love others (including our enemies) the world would be a better place. That is not to say that religions hold the monopoly on good-there are good people across the spectrum, just as there are bad people across the spectrum.

 

 

We are in 100% agreement on the above statements. See? We found some common ground. I knew you could do it!

 

I feel all warm and snuggly inside now. My day suddenly looks brighter.

 

Thanks Sweetz

[strongnrelaxed]

Around the time of Hitler (30s and 40s) antisemitism was rife around the world including in the US. A lot of Christians had an intense dislike of Jews History of antisemitism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

We get hung up on this Hitler's religion thing way too much.

 

What is more important to me is that he was raised as a Catholic. His brain was damaged in the very same ways that millions of believers are damaged. So whether he became a Jew hater, a devil worshiper, or a an agnostic later on, the damage was done in his youth. Same holds true for serial killers. There is a very strong pattern of childhood abuse in these sick people.

 

Also, you cannot isolate Hitler. He is a convenient and relatively recent example of humanity gone horribly wrong, but there are numerous examples of such atrocities throughout history - and ironically these examples are rife throughout the bible. I saw a youtube video once where someone counted up all of the crimes perpetrated in the bible and either commanded or condoned by god. It was horrific.

 

The vast and overwhelming majority of evil,death and destruction to humans, children, animals and the planet have been perpetrated by, or on behalf or behest of people in power. One of the easiest and commonly used tools to use to accomplish said death and destruction - to get good human beings to go along with the evil - is to demonize or dehumanize "the others". How could you get good men to travel overseas to murder, torture, rape or enslave other fellow humans unless the others are seen as something evil or less than human?

 

This is so simple, so basic, so pervasive throughout history, and so easy to look up, I can hardly believe that we are still "debating" this. There is NOT debate. This is all fact. Look it up! For goodness sake READ the BIBLE.

 

While we are here debating this online, your religious and political leaders are continuing to perpetrate the crimes out in the real world on your behalf (and mine unfortunately)WITH YOUR TACIT APPROVAL!

 

I think my head is going to explode. I cannot endure this much longer.

 

Is there anyone else who sees this?

[sally4sara]

I'm kind of dumbfounded by the fact that you made a thread about finding common ground...and yet make absolutely no attempt to find it yourself.

 

Calling religions nothing more than "myths" is highly disrespectful. That is why we can't find common ground-because atheists diminish our beliefs down to nothing more than fairytales, and make no attempt to meet halfway.

 

As a Christian, I don't think I'm blindly following anything at all. For the majority of my life, I didn't give religion a second thought. It wasn't something that interested me, nor had any place in my life. I found Jesus, and through Him, I was saved. Maybe that is ridiculous to you, but it is not to me.

 

The true evil in the world is man-made, not God made. We are the ones who put the thorns in God's wonderful world, and tainted it with our sin. Therefore, we are the ones who can make it better. I actually think if more people followed Jesus's teaching to love God, love others (including our enemies) the world would be a better place. That is not to say that religions hold the monopoly on good-there are good people across the spectrum, just as there are bad people across the spectrum.

 

 

No disrespect intended here but I don't know how this claim is valid. I believe this to be the first source of religious cognitive dissonance.

 

If we are to take the bible's account, Lucifer use the form of one of god's creations - a serpent. Both humans were told all the animals in the garden were good so the serpent was a trusted creature. Lucifer used guile - a lie - which is evil as it stands against one of the commandments. So that "first sin" was put into motion BY a sin. Who really sinned the first sin? Lucifer. Who created Lucifer? God. Thus sin is god created.

 

One of the things that has always stumped me is that we were supposedly favored over the angels because we were gifted with free will and the angels were not. How could Lucifer go bad and try to rise up against a god that didn't imbue him with the ability to choose to be good or bad? How did the ones who took his side make such a choice?

And we got the whole "god created everything" angle. That means he created evil. Evil exists and if someone created everything, then evil was created by that someone too.

 

Funny story that happened to me recently:

 

A guy I know to have been a worthless drunk and absentee father told me I am a "lost godless soul" and bound for hell. When I got mad about it, he claimed he was not trying to insult me and was only trying to help me.

 

When I was a believer - this explanation would have made sense to me. It doesn't anymore because I know its just the gear up to looking down on others for not believing.

 

So really, when I think about someone getting insulted over a person who doesn't believe in the existence of a god calling religion a myth, I find it entirely ironic.

 

Religion is a myth = disrespectful?

You are going to hell = a respectful attempt to help?

 

I'm sorry but walking around thinking this person or that person is going to hell isn't a middle ground either.

[strongnrelaxed]

 

I have to ask: what does it matter to you what I or anyone else believes? If we are not hurting anyone, why does it affect you?

 

Thank you for the measured response. I don't know how to be any clearer than I have been, but religious beliefs affect everyone. They do affect me.

[sally4sara]

Evil was created by man. It circles back to the man has free will argument.

 

This still did not get explained. Is it just down to being unexplainable or do you not know how to explain it or do you just not want to admit that evil is god made. Your saying evil is man made makes no sense when Lucifer existed as a force of evil before the creation (for you creationists anyway) of man and god made Lucifer. If he didn't exist as a source of evil, he couldn't have entered as the serpent and told his lie of temptation.

 

Its okay. I get that you feel icky suggesting that if god exists he is the one responsible for evil. But whether you are a literal reader of the bible or not, it is the implication. Apparently god just got bored and forced one of his no free will having angels into rebelling in order to create a nasty place to send the humans he loves so much.

 

Please understand that I hear all this stuff and its just nonsense to me. But if you are a believer it has to matter to you otherwise you're just a cherry picking believer. Its not atheist's fault that this stuff is christian dogma and no one is making anyone (well, not making any adults believe) buy into this stuff.

[TheFinalWord]

Apparently god just got bored and forced one of his no free will having angels into rebelling in order to create a nasty place to send the humans he loves so much.

 

Where does the bible say Lucifer had no free will?

 

“You were the signet of perfection,full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;

every precious stone was your covering,

sardius, topaz, and diamond,

beryl, onyx, and jasper,

sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;

and crafted in gold were your settings

and your engravings.

On the day that you were created

they were prepared.

14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.

I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God;

in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

15 You were blameless in your ways

from the day you were created,

till unrighteousness was found in you.

16 In the abundance of your trade

you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;

so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,

and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub,

from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty;

you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.

 

 

God did not create evil. However, God gave man and angels the free will to reject His eternal nature. Where then does evil come from then? James explains:

 

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

 

Does God get pleasure from evil? Or use evil as some type of way to relieve "boredom"? God already told us He does not take pleasure in evil.

 

Ezekiel 18:23

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

 

Ezekiel 33:11

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!"

 

I John 1:5

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

 

Psalm 145:17

The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

 

Psalm 5:4

For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;No evil dwells with You.

 

 

What biblical evidence do we have of this?

 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

[strongnrelaxed]

Where does the bible say Lucifer had no free will? [snip] God did not create evil. However, God gave man and angels the free will to reject His eternal nature. Where then does evil come from then? James explains:

 

As much as I like you FinalWord, I must respectfully point you to a few bible verses with which you might not be familiar.

 

First, of all, Genesis, indicates that Adam was the first of god's creatures to have free will. Interestingly, they did not know about good and evil until they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge. So how could they have understood the gravity of their actions and the consequences BEFORE eating the apple? They didn't - it is right there in genesis.

 

Re lucifer and free will - a lot of this fall from grace stuff is from apocryphal texts and used whenever convenient by some preachers. More here - Do angels have free will? - Yahoo! Answers

 

 

Most important, the bible is not evidence any more than atheism is a belief. It is the collective written work of many human men over several thousand years. God even tells us that we can modify it as necessary. To wit:

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

God created everything in the heavens and earth- including satan and evil.

From Colossians 1:16 - "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

 

Just thought you would appreciate a little bible verse to shed god's light on the matter!

[TheFinalWord]

AGod even tells us that we can modify it as necessary.

 

I'm glad to see you're studying the bible S&R

 

Thanks friend. I am pretty familiar with the texts you are referring to. I have to ask do you have an actual understanding of the what these verses mean that you are referencing? For example, Paul's second letter to Timothy is in no way saying that God's Word can be modified as we see fit. It actually indicates the exact opposite.

[pie2]

God created everything in the heavens and earth- including satan and evil.

From Colossians 1:16 - "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him."

 

Just thought you would appreciate a little bible verse to shed god's light on the matter!

 

Do you know what the original sin was s&r? The one that started the whole Devil vs. God thing?

 

Pride. Related to free will. God has allowed us (and angels) to choose to love him. God wants our love. But you can't MAKE someone love you. How do you think God would know we loved him, if we were "forced" to love him?

 

Evil exists (imo) for the ultimate purpose of magnifying God's love. I know that you see the immediate pain of wrongdoings that happen in this life. But I think your viewpoint is limited, finite.

 

If you ever try to think about eternity and your soul, you may begin to rumminate about how your soul might like to spend eternity. And spending eternity in paradise sounds pretty good.

 

So, the relatively brief sufferings in this life (relative to eternity) are nothing compared to eternity in paradise. Enduring evil for a second, in order to understand and know God's love, is the price we have to pay.

Edited September 21, 2012 by pie2

[strongnrelaxed]

I'm glad to see you're studying the bible S&R

 

Thanks friend. I am pretty familiar with the texts you are referring to. I have to ask do you have an actual understanding of the what these verses mean that you are referencing? For example, Paul's second letter to Timothy is in no way saying that God's Word can be modified as we see fit. It actually indicates the exact opposite.

 

Wow TFW. You really are pushing my brain on this one. I guess when the bible says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction" That actually means the opposite of what it says?

 

Forgive me. I should have expected that. I keep forgetting that the text means whatever one wants it to mean.

 

I am really not being sarcastic here. I just cannot get my head around this "faith" thing. It is just a bizarre and strange thing to me that so many people interpret words as the opposite of what it literally says and in so many different ways. And then if that gets too tricky, believers claim that it is all symbolic.

 

And this is perfectly acceptable to just about every one.

 

Be honest, how do you get around this in your own mind? Doesn't this cause you some problems deep down inside?

[strongnrelaxed]

Do you know what the original sin was s&r? The one that started the whole Devil vs. God thing?

 

Pride. Related to free will. God has allowed us (and angels) to choose to love him. God wants our love. But you can't MAKE someone love you. How do you think God would know we loved him, if we were "forced" to love him?

 

Evil exists (imo) for the ultimate purpose of magnifying God's love. I know that you see the immediate pain of wrongdoings that happen in this life. But I think your viewpoint is limited, finite.

 

If you ever try to think about eternity and your soul, you may begin to rumminate about how your soul might like to spend eternity. And spending eternity in paradise sounds pretty good.

 

So, the relatively brief sufferings in this life (relative to eternity) are nothing compared to eternity in paradise. Enduring evil for a second, in order to understand and know God's love, is the price we have to pay.

 

 

Thank you pie2. I actually do get what you're saying about the juxtaposition of good vs evil. I have explained the same thing to my children in a non-religious way. More on that perhaps another time.

 

But fortunately for me, I do not believe in an afterlife. Any person's speculation about these things is just as valid as the next person's in my view because there can never be proof. When people 'die' and come back with tales of lights and angels and floating out of their bodies, they are not dead -they are unconscious. If they had been dead, they would be - well - dead. Unless we have a new definition for the word "dead", which Catholics in particular are fond of doing.

 

The thought of spending eternity bowing down and praising a harsh vengeful dictator who would create this world we live in and act in so many odd and "mysterious ways" is so deeply disturbing and scary to me that I would prefer just about anything else.

 

It just makes my skin crawl to think of spending an eternity bowing down before a being who would created satan, hell, evil, diseases, flesh-eating bacteria, black holes, criminals, and rapists and all sorts of afflictions, crimes atrocities. A god who condones and sometimes even commands things like incest, stoning, genocide, and mass murder (look these up, they are in the bible).

 

A being who gave freewill to two uneducated naive and innocent primates only to punish all of mankind for their sin of eating one apple - a crime that they were not able to understand because they did not yet have an understanding of good and evil. A sin that has been randomly called disobedience, hunger for knowledge, arrogance, pride, and - well you know the rest if you know your bible.

 

A god who created all of these horrible afflictions and then destroyed ALL of mankind - untold millions of babies, children, fetuses,sick innocent people children playing in a park, animals, kittens, puppies - ALL of it - in a flood for these reasons - Why did God destroy the earth in a flood (Specifics given) « Power of Prayer, Praise and the Word of God

 

But basically because humans were being the flawed human creatures that she created.

 

A god who gives us free will, but also gives us very powerful biological urges and then tells us not to use them. And if we do, then we will suffer, and burn, and suffer and be tortured by demons, forever in smoke and agony, and pain and fire and be abused, forever and ever. Because we transgressed in some way.

 

I can't even go on. This is so cruel on an epic level that I am just dumb struck at how many people cannot wait to go and worship this being.

 

Good luck to all of you. I cry inside for you - I really do.

[TheFinalWord]

Wow TFW. You really are pushing my brain on this one. I guess when the bible says "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction" That actually means the opposite of what it says?

 

Hey S&R, when you look at that text it is not saying the bible can be changed to whatever you want. It is saying the scripture is used to reprove and correct us. Not for us to correct and reprove God's Word.Read the next verse, verse 17:

 

"so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

 

If the meaning of doctrine and the gospel the apostles preached can be changed from one day to the next, there would be no way to live up to this edict.

 

Paul explains why this will be important:

 

"mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."

 

It was critical for Timothy to use the scripture as a beacon:

 

"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

 

Paul, why is it so important to use the scriptures to confirm doctrine, for reproof, for correction? He explains in the next chapter:

 

"I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season (when they like it and when they don't like it); correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

 

James also explains that the Word is used to change us, not for us to change the Word. Here he likens scripture to a mirror:

 

"But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing."

 

Forgive me. I should have expected that. I keep forgetting that the text means whatever one wants it to mean.

 

People can make it mean whatever they want it to mean, but that does not mean that they are handling the Word correctly. One of the 10 commandments is to not make any graven images. As humans, we have a tendency to create a god in our own mind to suit our personal desires and violate the second commandment. This is why studying the bible is so important. We want to know the true God, who is very different from what our heart's desire will naturally conceive. For example, as a man, it is natural desire in my heart to look at women with lust. However, Christ said not to even look with lust. So many of our natural, carnal desires are at enmity with God. It is very easy for us to find ways to create a god that will accommodate our carnal desires, which is why studying the scripture is vital to a Christian.

 

Even though God warns us, many Christians and non-Christians do it anyway which is why you will see all these Hollywood stars thanking God at the grammies and their music is filled with vile, fornication, and idolatry. People naturally desire to create a god in their own image to appease their "itching ears" as Paul stated.

 

In the book you quoted from the bible, Paul actually warns that this would happen which is why he gives the following charge:

 

"I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season (when they like it and when they don't like it); correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine."

 

So, making the bible mean whatever people want it to mean is a real threat, which is why Paul charges us to stick the doctrines and use the scripture to correct misunderstandings.

 

This is where the verse you quoted comes into play. When we have a misunderstanding, the bible is there to give us a sure foundation. There are many methods of interpretation. The fields you need to study are hermeneutics (comes from the Greek god Hermes, who would interpret messages from the oracle at Delphi) and exegesis which is a critical method for textual interpretation.

 

We cannot simply Google verses, paste them, and then make a valid interpretation. Let me paint a picture. Imagine you belong to a Shakespeare book club. Many people in the book club have been studying Shakespeare for decades. Now you come into the club, having not read any of Shakespeare's works, but instead do some quick Google search referencing other book clubs that hate Shakespeare's works. The other place you get your info is the cover on the back of the book you're set to study in the club that week.

 

Not going to give you a very accurate picture huh? It would be okay to go to the book club and admit, "Hey I don't know much about this book, where can I get info about this character, or what does this passage in the book mean?" Or you can go in with your Google checklist from the anti-Shakespeare site and the book cover summary professing to be an expert. With the former, you would gain respect and people would be open to explaining things to you to help educate. With the latter, people are going to think "this guy is not very honest, let him live with his misunderstandings". I'm pretty patient though. If you are open I will be happy to explain things.

 

I am really not being sarcastic here. I just cannot get my head around this "faith" thing.

 

Good point and it is totally normal to be confused about what faith is.

 

First, what is faith? Remember, I said faith in the Greek means "to be persuaded". It is simply being persuaded that what God says is true. Easier said than done right? Well, the good thing is God can work right where anyone wants to start.

 

Faith is a gift from God. The only way to receive it is to ask God for it. Over time, God will reveal Himself more and more in your life which will increase your faith. Persuasion takes time to accrue.

 

Be honest, how do you get around this in your own mind? Doesn't this cause you some problems deep down inside?

 

I guess for me, I have witnessed God's promises come to pass in my life multiple times. And to be honest, unless you invite Christ into your heart, faith will always be a mystery to you. I say that in a gentle way.

 

"Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles (Gentiles are anyone that is not a Jew), but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

 

"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. "

 

Without Christ in your heart, you cannot receive the Words of God which are the very thing which produce faith:

 

"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of God."

 

When we ask Christ into our heart and invite the Holy Spirit into our lives, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in our innermost being, aka our spirit. He acts as a continual witness to our spirit.

 

Romans 8:16: "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"

 

What is amazing about this, is that even when I am not faithful He is faithful and will minister to my spirit.

 

I hope that helps,

TFW

[tom3.1415]

This is one of my longstanding gripes that I have with atheists and such. I even had these gripes when I was an atheist! That religion is a source of evil, and that seems to be a prevailing argument amongst atheists against theists, and religion.

 

Let me clear something up real quick-religion does NOT cause people to be raped, murdered, mutilated, hunted down, persecuted at all. It IS the PEOPLE within the religion that does this. Saying what you just said is tantamount to saying that "Allah" ordered a certain section of Muslims to go and attack the World Trade Centre. There's nothing in any religious text (that I know of) that would qualify as doing so.

 

There's a misunderstanding amongst people that when people do bad things in the "name of religion" that it is then the religions fault for them doing so. No. Take the Westboro Baptist Church for instance-they are a group of homophobic people who picket soldier's funerals, preaching hate. Does it say anywhere in the Bible to behave so? No. Do the majority of Christians agree with them? No, absolutely not. Yet, there's a number of people who would look at them and think that they are representing a larger section of Christianity than what they actually are.

 

People who do bad things in the name of religion would do bad things without using that name, too. The Westboro Baptist Church members would still be homophobic even if they weren't religious. They just dress their prejudice up in "religion" (or their interpretation of it) and think it makes it all OK. Religion is nothing to do with it.

 

Religion does not cause wars to happen. People do. How many non-religious people commit crimes against mankind too? Plenty. I'm not denying that war, and crimes against humanity happen in the name of religion, but I am saying that it is not at the religion's request. Christianity does not tell us to go around and picket gay bars etc, or to do bad things to people. Nor does the Koran ask people to go crash planes into high-rise buildings. It's a small subsection of extremists, who have hate in their hearts, and not the love of God, who do these things. The people who did 9/11 were psychopaths with a mission. That's scary. Would they be psychopaths without being Muslim? Yes, they'd just find another mission.

 

 

What you're saying is a common thought process among many modern Christians. The only problem is it's not true, it really isn't. You hear about many of the compassionate things Jesus does if you go to a service or bible study but when I read the bible I see much too much intolerance, creulty and violence. This is New Testament I'm talking about.

 

I posted about 50 examples of intolerance from just 3 chapters of the NT but there are hundreds. As well as hundreds of cruel and violent passages.

I can easily round them up and post many here but just open the bible.

Non-believers are not tolerated and are to be put into lakes of fire and the Jews are a "generation of vipers" and on and on. It's upsetting to read and if I was a serious Christian I would probably soak up that obvious hatred.

 

Then the whole book ends with a story about how this god is going to destroy the Earth with fire killing 2/3 of the population.

[TheFinalWord]

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

 

Behold the atheists' nightmare!

 

 

You thought I was going to give a link to the banana's design didn't you

[AngrySmile]

 

But the bible does this repeatedly! The book is so replete with references to rape, incest, and genocide alone that these passages could fill their own book. (Hey, that gives me an idea!)

 

 

Where is this BOOK! I NEED THIS BOOK NOW. Make this BOOK! SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY! I have thousands of folks that need to realize humanity is evil, and consistently tell me I'm an evil person and that reading the Bible is going to help me. I read the book, the Koran, the Torah and plenty more in my own awakening, and I denounced them all because they were pure fiction.

 

And (some) fiction is based offa non fiction. So I'll say...Jesus (as all humans should be able to) walked on water, and flew, and shot lasers from his eyes.

 

Now, not to be too cynical...I'll need to pose this point. If we are submissive and bask in the light of God, our sins forgiven by his son (How come it was Jesus? Why not any of the 45 BILLION PEOPLE that have come and gone since then? Pretty sure Mother Theresa was up there in the "Holy crap that's a great avatar" section of human honesty.)

 

but no. We will live in eternal bliss instead of death? Ummm Not to be funny, but its a valid thought---what if God is basically Shang Tsung. Yeah, you live on forever. As power for someone else. Unwillingly (<--This is very important because my belief system is that the interconnectedness of the universe(multiverses?) is what sustains life, reason, thought, and most importantly the existence of any and everything we know thus far. Its not controlled, but there is a nexus of energy that ebbs and flows..but more on that in another thread.)

 

...Which is kind of the stuff this "God" would pull once the hellfire comes. Which is a bit overdue :/ I'm tired of seeing folded money depicting 9/11 and White House explosions. Let's see it go down, and then maybe I'd consider going "Huh. Looks like it was serious."

[skydiveaddict]

This is so sad and disturbing. There are so few people willing to challenge this sickness. That is the true evil in the world.

 

You are wrong. The vast majority of humanity slaughtered has come in the 20th century and from despots who despised religion of any kind. Hitler, Pol-pot, Mao, Stalin; just to name a few. People killed in the name of religion of any sort pales in comparison.

Edited October 16, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[Tres]

nor the numerous scientists who have sacrificed their lives to speak the truth to make the world a better place - to prove that the world is NOT flat, that it is bacteria that make us ill - NOT demons, etc.

 

I mean the effects of breaking our human reason and rationality. The centuries of indoctrination of children and the fear that still makes it virtually impossible to mount a defense against this insanity?/QUOTE]

 

Everyone has his own reason and rationality. There are a lot of grey area in people. A criminal has his reason and rationality as well.

There are numerous scientists and medical doctors who do believe in God.

 

Bacteria are everywhere but it makes ill only specific people. The bacteria cannot choose who it makes ill.

For example, for HIV virus, it makes people ill mostly if they behave in a specific way. Smoking makes people ill only if they have specific combination of many other factors and behaviors including genetical factors.

From what I know, the world was created by God. IMO It means that God has created everything including people, bacteria, viruses, genes and everythig else.

[skydiveaddict]

Their motives were not even remotely as purely anti-religion as you make out; they despised competition of any kind, and persecuted just about any organisation they couldn't control. Churches were just one of many obstacles to their mad power grab.

 

I never said their motives were purely anti-religion.

 

You pulled this canard once before and got ripped a new one, and in a depressingly familiary tactic, you simply wait a couple of months and just trot it out again.

 

I guess you're right. I wouldn't want historical facts to interrupt your emotional diatribe.

 

They are the only ones you can name. They're the only ones anybody names.

 

Ok. How about the Japanese unprovoked naked aggression which started the pacific war? From 1937 to the end of wwII, they murdered over three million people.

Edited October 16, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[domenicosal]

Of course the Bible is full of examples of God requiring and endorsing war between his people and their enemies. In fact, all along the old Testament, God calls himself God and Lord of Armies. The old Testament God is a God of War. So, there is no need to dig deeper to understand that much of the battles at those times and at more recent times were caused by people who was fighting against others by the cause of Religion. This happens not only at Christian religions, but at others like Muslim religion. At the Coran is written that Musslims have the obligation to kill the “unfaithful”, that’s to say, every other human who is not Musslim. In short, War and other abominations are made by people, but must times they have been motivated by their religious beliefs.

[domenicosal]

I don't think that Religion is the trouble by itself, but I hope for the day to come when everyone in this world sees the Religion as a way of adoring a supreme being. No more no less than just loving God their own way, respecting and tolerating any other person who believes in another God or religion. Maybe for this to happen some day, the only one solution seems that Religions should dissapear, because there are so much people who misunderstand religion as a reason to confront any other who doesn't believe the same.