Is my mother narcissistic or is it just me?

[Sugarkane]

I don't know what to do I am desperate to leave but this economy is a joke. and I wanted to go back to school. They want me to live at home forever, yet give me no advice when someone insults me for still living there.

[Sugarkane]

I went to therapy and didn't work. The therapist said she understood as her parents are the same!

[bluegreen]

I don't know what to do I am desperate to leave but this economy is a joke. and I wanted to go back to school. They want me to live at home forever, yet give me no advice when someone insults me for still living there.

 

 

 

ONLINE SCHOOL

my monthly payment is less then dinner out and am getting a degree from nationally accredited school and start up its ONE DOLLAR only thousands of students even from around the world are in it why not you to ?

 

Its called Penn Foster look it up get enrolled and start at least one positive thing for yourself Good Lord won't forget us am sure maybe by the time you are done job will wait for you maybe then something else maybe ..... see what am getting at ?

[M30USA]

You described my mother-in-law to a tee. (And this isn't by my own admission, but my STBXW's admission.)

 

I had to deal with MIL constantly giving my wife guilt trips for moving with me and the kids to another town. Her parents would come over and practically be in tears when they left their grandkids--as if they were their own kids and we were ripping them away from them. It was ridiculous.

 

Anyway, now my STBXW is living with her parents during our temporary orders. So I guess her mom finally has what she wants. It's kind of sad but my MIL has two adult children who are married (over age 30). One is living inside her house (this is my STBXW) and the other just bought a house literally next door right on the opposite side of the fence. I guess MIL finally has what she wants: adult children living in her nest.

[Radu]

Is anyone here also horribly worried that they will pass this curse unto our future kids ?

 

I actually plan to go and have a talk with the ppl in my family who are still alive of my grandfather's generation.

I talked with a few and by chance they mentioned a few things like 'determined, succesfull, charming' ... at some point i had an 'oh sh*t' moment, when i realised that this is where it came from, parents carry the wounds and teach their children, perpetuating this horrible cycle.

My sister is starting to become aware of my grandfather's influence, though she was younger at the time, and she had a normal school teacher.

My cousins are blissfully aware but their lives are either succesfull or in absolute shambles, and in a way i see the imprint of these ppl on it.

[dreamingoftigers]

I was scared I would and I probably would have without help.

 

Without being able to process all if that rage and hurt it would have had nowhere else to go.

 

I feel that in a lot of ways I am paying back a debt incurred by my family and my family's history.

 

It will never be completely paid back (as there are no perfect parents) but I feel that I am doing a great chunk.

 

I NEVER use physical discipline.

 

I do not just give in to every demand she makes. I do not tell her "no" to everything she asks. I keep everything as CONSISTENT regarding discipline that I can.

 

I am working very hard on not having an angry-sounding tone (that sounds worse than it is).

 

I know that the smallest stuff I do age remembers 10x.

I set aside time just for her and me every day. I have taken a parenting course dealing with positive discipline. I don't jump down her throat.

 

I don't belittle her feelings. I try to let her know I understand if she's sad or angry. I don't try to "win." or let her know "it's because I'm the parent and if my mind changes 16000 times it means I'm right every one of them and you are WRONG."

 

Authority for the sake of authority is a very dangerous thing. Look what happens to governments in that situations. Are not families a microcosm of that?

[Radu]

Maybe ... i have a theory that politicians are high functioning BPD's.

 

And i suspect that mental health specialist are more messed up than the average population, it's like a wolf in sheep's clothing sometimes with them.

 

What scares me is that i sometimes act in a way that my mom says is 'just like grandpa'. In a way i find it ironic that i was a blissfully unaware and kind 5yr old when he 'diagnosed' me with 'something bad in you', only with time to turn me into a mini-him.

 

DOT, after reading this thread i think i understand why you chose reconcilliation with your husband, there is quite some shared history there and a desire for either of you to not repeat the mistakes of your parents, right ?

 

I also can relate to feeling like you are paying for someone else's mistakes, but in the end it's both for us, our future spouses [in my case] and children.

[RiverRunning]

She acted like my grandmother asked for all the sympathy.

 

 

I think this is one of the characteristics that starts splitting NPD off from other similar illnesses. They can't empathize with other people. They just get envious that those people are getting the attention that they want.

 

If someone is sick...then don't you know how sick they are too?! Why doesn't anybody care about -my- back/my knees/etc.?

 

The gaslighting - "Oh, you're not remembering it right," "You're just trying to make me look bad," "That never happened."

 

The control over a kid's life...which I think extends past just being co-dependent and terrified of being alone. Many NPD parents see their kids as extensions of themselves, nothing more. I've noticed it's a somewhat common theme too that NPD parents are VERY jealous over the parents of their kid's significant other.

 

My mom was always angry and upset that we were doing more for our SO's parents, she was terrified that they were nice person, terrified that they had more money, a nicer, bigger house, etc. That goes back to all of the materialism of NPD, too - how it looks, not how it feels.

 

I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned starving themselves and the parents were just like, "You look great!" They don't care how you get there. That's a very, very common theme.

 

In any case, even if they don't clinically have NPD (and most of us can't verify it), the behaviors are still there and they still cause a lot of damage.

 

And the other parent is very critical too. Usually, if the kids are teenagers or adults and they're writing about it, the NPD parent is either divorced or the other parent is an enabler. That's why you'll see the other parent making the manipulative phone calls to the kid on behalf of the NPD parent.

 

I'm actually considering not having my dad walk me down the aisle, and I am considering omitting the "parents dance with children" crap at our reception. It's artificial and we have not been close in many, many years. Whew. That feels GOOD.

 

But to address the question, am I worried that I will end up like my mother?

 

Not at all. She is vindictive, childish, very impulsive and needs constant attention. I have learned to thrive mostly on my own - I consider myself mature and I can handle my own problems.

 

I am generally calm, rational, logical...I will take my time to do things right. I don't expect pity or attention from people, especially like someone with NPD, Good Lord (of course I get a little insecure and want some attention here and there ).

 

I think seeing my mom's behavior really did a number on me. But more than that, my dad was also her polar opposite: intelligent, passive, calm, etc. I think my personality is much more like his than hers. However, unlike him, I did not just sit back and take it. My brother has a similar personality to me, but he is a little more like our mother.

 

I have a very good handle on my anger. I don't let it get pent up, but I quickly learned that slamming my fists, stomping my feet and screaming were not good ways to release anger.

 

I'm very involved in the raising of my 6-year-old cousin. In those 6 years, I can only remember losing my temper and giving him a quick swat on the butt a few years back. I instantly felt guilty. I am a more effective parent than either my mom or his biological mother - they give into whatever he wants. His mother will ignore bigger stuff that he does, then immediately blow up in a screaming rage the moment he does something.

 

I am consistent in my 'parenting.' No means no, and it will not change. Yes means yes. Others complain about what a 'bad' kid he can be...I have never had any problems.

 

He respects my authority and he knows that I will follow through after my first and only warning. If my cousin would give up her rights, I would gladly adopt him and take him in in a heartbeat. My fiancee adores him.

 

I had to learn a little how to be more stable in a relationship. We did not have the best beginning together, but over the last 4 years have really built a strong partnership.

 

My fiancee did have problems controlling his anger in the first year we were together - something about work would come up, and he'd stand up yelling, slamming his fists down on his desk. I reacted as a child growing up in my home would: I kind of cowered.

 

He did eventually learn what kind of impact he was having and he handles his anger much, much better. We talk calmly. Our 'fights' are maybe a few minutes of voices raised once every week or two, and then we quickly move on. We have a very calm and mellow way of handling problems, and that's even when we've got a wedding planned, we're looking for a house, etc...we still have plenty of stress.

 

I made a conscious decision to sit and think out whatever punishments or praise I'm going to dole out to a child. I do not react reflexively. The kid is not going to forget what he did, right or wrong, in the two or so minutes it takes to make a good decision.

 

Every then and again I get worried if I say something that I think she would have said...but I realized I was raised with that for decades. I am her kid. We are GOING to have SOME similarities, including her bad traits.

 

I don't know - maybe I'm overconfident? hahaha. But...I don't know: people with NPD can be incredibly childish. I've noticed that if my cousin has a complaint for my mom, a question, anything, she'll sometimes explode on him with, "And don't you think I'm HUNGRY/TIRED too?!"

 

You can skip to this if you're skimming. This gets into more stories. Just yesterday I was visiting and he was playfully pushing on her while she was at the top of a staircase. I told him to stop (believe me, I don't know why I did! ). She turned to him and started saying, "Oh, let him, he'll be doing me a favor. I want to just die." I scolded her for ever thinking that's something appropriate to say in front of a 6-year-old. I don't know, though...the kid laughed it off, so maybe he has a tougher skin than I ever did.

 

I think a lot of NPD is deep-rooted in insecurity. My mom finished high school, barely, and that was it. I went to college and got a four-year degree. Before I even went to school, she kept trying to push me to go to a trade school instead (I don't know if this was because she genuinely thought it would be better for me, or if that would make her feel less threatened than me going to college).

 

She was never supportive while I was in school. Never asked a thing about it. But every opportunity she could after I graduated, she'd say things like, "You think you know everything because you went to college, but you don't. You don't know anything."

 

She filled out my taxes for years when I was younger. I just let her because I didn't want to deal with the arguments. But as I got into my 20s, I got more forceful about it. I went and got money orders for something tax-related.

 

She insisted on filling them out, and I told her no. I had to look up how to do it on-line. The whole time, she's sitting there saying, "Oh, you're going to mess it all up. Let me see what you did." I knew that if I showed her, it would be 'wrong' anyway.

 

Sure enough, it was. She pulled it from my hands, then took it around the room showing all of her company. Then she sat there and literally LAUGHED at me, but not before goading my dad into agreeing with, "Well, if she's going to be an idiot and do it wrong, let her do it wrong."

 

I was applying for jobs right after I got out of college (I've seen been mostly self-employed in the last 2 years) and bombing interviews left and right. I remember, just after hearing I didn't get an awesome temp job at a university ($20 an hour - HUGE here), she came up to me and started yelling, "You need to lower your standards and start applying for secretarial jobs. You are NOT too good for work like that." WTF? I never told her I was!

 

I think a lot of my mom's insecurities focus around her intelligence (she is not very bright, TBH. Not dumb-as-a-rock, but maybe a little bit below average). I've found that she especially is very insecure about my education. If I'm at a table saying, "Oh, did you hear about X?" that can be enough to prompt, "You think you know everything because you went to college!"

 

I get jealous sometimes too when I see other 'happy' families. My fiancee's grandmother, mother and sister are very close. Alas, we are nothing alike and I am the 'outsider' still, so I keep my distance because those women can make gossip travel faster than a plane.

 

I hold out hope, even as I see those families, that although I never got to be the child, one day I can be the very lucky parent to a very lucky daughter or son.

 

The chain of abuse in my family has waned in every generation, and it ends with me (my dad's mother had a nervous breakdown when he was a child. She would shove her head into the stove in front of him when he was a small boy and threaten to kill herself. She apparently deafened one of my uncles she beat him so much).

[Radu]

Keep writing stories.

 

I joined this forum after my previous forum experiences because i was a maladjusted 28yr old.

Just one [1] good serious relationship that didn't last long but was for the first time with a good kinded person.

I did not know how to act properly in company, as an employer, in bartering, any kind of social interactions.

I don't believe much in therapy [i mean for stuff i don't consider serious] and over here it's still a dirty word, not to mention outrageously expensive.

 

So these forums where ppl post stories, where you can share experiences is my therapy [and for ppl like OP i bet].

You find out there are others that feel like you, think like you and may have gone through the same experiences, you realise you are not a loser or going crazy.

You gain confidence ... it's just plain amazing, i hope the OP sticks around because the 1yr i spent on this forum did me a world of good for gaining perspective.

 

And even though this may be interpreted as a superiority complex, but when you start to see these bricks falter in the wall that stops you from being 'normal' the feeling is amaaaaazing, an incredible rush ... because you did it by way of your conscious decision, something that not many can do.

 

PS: RR and DOT, i think you guys are further down the road than me ... i am still in anger.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Radu

[capricorndreamgurl3]

Is anyone here also horribly worried that they will pass this curse unto our future kids ?

 

I actually plan to go and have a talk with the ppl in my family who are still alive of my grandfather's generation.

I talked with a few and by chance they mentioned a few things like 'determined, succesfull, charming' ... at some point i had an 'oh sh*t' moment, when i realised that this is where it came from, parents carry the wounds and teach their children, perpetuating this horrible cycle.

My sister is starting to become aware of my grandfather's influence, though she was younger at the time, and she had a normal school teacher.

My cousins are blissfully aware but their lives are either succesfull or in absolute shambles, and in a way i see the imprint of these ppl on it.

 

I think about this every day. In fact, that is the main reason I don't want to have children right now. I want to make sure that my issues are resolved first so that I don't take them out on my children. I want them to grow up in a loving and nurturing environment where they aren't judged for what they look like and aren't criticized for every little thing. I want them to grow up with confidence and independence. I want the best for them and I am scared of becoming my mother every day.

 

Also, according to my parents, they had at least one parent who didn't treat them right growing up. My dad's mom is a very religious and controlling woman who never hesitates to criticize anyone. My dad never really told me any stories growing up, but she treated my father, who was the first born son, like crap, and his other two siblings like gold. My dad had enough of her crap and moved out when he was 18. So this is one piece to the puzzle.

 

My mother always says that her mother, who is a great grandmother to me, never cared for her or did anything for her. Her parents constantly fought and she basically stayed away from home to get away from it all. I loved my grandpa and I miss him, but my mom told me one story where she broke her arm and when they were setting up her arm to put it in the cast, she started crying and her dad hit her for crying.....yes hit her for crying just because it hurt. I just thought that was a little abusive. Then her mother threw things at her growing up when angry and they never got along. My mother complains about her being selfish to this day, when she does nothing but treat me like a saint. She has always tried to help me out when possible. My mother gets jealous of our relationship and she got mad saying that she treated me better than her own daughter. Geez, it's not my fault. My grandmother had an alcoholic father growing up, but my grandfather had a normal childhood. So another piece.

 

This shows that it is somewhat generational. That's why I think I need help. I need to be tested to see if I do have BPD or NPD. My children's future depends on it.

[capricorndreamgurl3]

Don't worry about the stories. I have a lot of them too and I have a feeling that I will share a few more before it's over with. Telling them is the only way we make progress in our lives and get the bad feelings out of our systems. We owe it ourselves not to keep it in, but release it in hopes that it betters us.

[Emilia]

 

If she were truly narcissistic, I would expect more displays of inflated self-esteem and grandiose ideas. Instead of saying "I don't have the money for a hotel room", I imagine a true narcissist would say, "The distance to come see me shouldn't matter. I'm worth it."

 

 

Yes I was thinking along these lines. My mother fits the description above.

[capricorndreamgurl3]

RR, I want to address a few things one of your posts, but this thing won't let me........

 

1. About the discipline: I want to be different from my parents on that regard too. When it came to punishment, my parents leaned towards corporal. They were a firm believer in spankings I guess because that was how they were raised. I got spanked with a shoe even as kid. The thing is, they would spank me out of anger too, even after they finished spanking me for something I did wrong. For example, if I gave them a wrong look and if I was crying about getting spanked, my parents would get angry and then go "I'LL GIVE YOU SOMETHING TO CRY ABOUT" and then spank me again....but only HARDER. This is one of the reasons I am scared of them and I vow NOT to spank my children. There are better ways to discipline your children. There are children who are never spanked who turn out fine. Another thing, they threaten to spank me AS AN ADULT. They believe that one is never too old to receive a spanking. How sick is this? They are so violent and barbaric at times. When they were watching a Maury special one time on the wild teens, my mom goes "I would like to get a hold of that girl and kick her teeth in". Wow, that's all I can say.

 

2. You say that you are jealous of how close your fiance's family is. I feel the same way about my husbands. In fact, I have more in common with his mother than I do my own, which is really sad, but it is also comforting that she is always there for me and supports me. She has also never criticized me and she treats me like I am her daughter. That is more than I can say about my own parents, who treat my husband like he doesn't exists. They have never really liked him and I know why. They know that he is the element that is weakening their power over me and they are jealous that he is in my life and takes better care of me. He is trying to better in so many ways and they see that I am becoming more independent and that is killing them inside IMO. When we were in the dating phase of our relationship, they criticized every move he made. They even got mad when he arrived and didn't acknowledge their presence, when to be fair, they weren't exactly at the door greeting him. It made me mad TBH and shows that they exhibit NPD traits in that you have to bow down and kiss their ass JUST because you allow him to stay under the same roof as your daughter.

 

You also mentioned that NPD parents can be jealous of the in-laws, and I agree with you 200% because my parents are the same damn way and they were more concerned with the material aspects of it than anything, like you had mentioned. My in-laws have always been working class people and their house was nothing special and the house was always dirty, but they were working people. However, they were always happy with what they had. My parents always asked me what kind of house they lived in and if they had a nice big kitchen. When they finally saw the house, they told me that I should have moved in with them because that house was too small for me. They acted like I was living on the street or something. The thing is, I didn't give a rat's ass how the house was. I only cared about the love and support they provided me while living there. Also, the very first thing that my parents asked me when I first met his parents were "What do they look like?", as if it was the most pressing question ever. I described them to them and they just laughed and made ugly comments about them, and acted like they were degenerates. And my dad had the gall to say that because they watch professional wrestling, they are low class and uneducated. I got up in my dad's face and told him off, but then he gets louder and tells me that I shouldn't be talking like that to him because he does a lot for me, yet it's okay to be disrespectful Then he proceeds to attack me. The day after, I packed my stuff up and drove to my boyfriend's house. I got so sick of it all.

 

While my mother does exhibit some BPD traits, I see her mostly being NPD too. I don't know if you can mix and match, but I just feel like both of my parents don't feel good about themselves and attack ppl just to make themselves feel better. It's sad really. I call it bullying. My parents are nothing but big ass bullies.

 

And there's never a day that mother doesn't complain about stuff. She even calls me 5 to 6 times a day JUST to complain about stuff. It irks me. I think she does it so I can just pick up and kiss her butt. But I pretend I don't know what's going on lol.

Edited August 2, 2012 by capricorndreamgurl3

[capricorndreamgurl3]

Oh today, my mother called me and told me that I needed to come see her. I am so angry about this. Not once has she even tried to get her ass down here to see me. It's always an excuse. Yet, she is planning a big ass trip to the beach and spending her money on that rather than coming to see me. The world apparently revolves around this woman. It's not like I can pack my dog in the car in this heat and drive 6 hours to see her. It really irks me how she can act. I am so angry right now.

[RiverRunning]

There's 9 diagnostic criteria for NPD, and you have to meet 5, generally, to be diagnosed. Some narcissists are the "I'm worth it" type, and others are more the "Woe is me..." sort.

 

In my case, I can say with certainty that my mom has 5 - 6 of the criteria. The other 3 (only associates with other high-class folks, shows arrogant/indignant/haughty attitude, grandiose sense of self-importance) are a little more questionable in her case. But I also have heard about narcissists who display more of those 3 than other traits.

 

Then there are malignant narcissists and neglectful narcissists. It sounds like some folks here had more neglectful ones (i.e., not buying the kid clothes, ignoring them/their needs/etc.) as punishment for some perceived wrong. Others are overly attentive and controlling.

 

Radu, the road to healing, I think, is a long process. My mom got worse and worse as I grew more independent (at 18 and 19, I got my first job, started college, started dating for the first time).

 

I really think that if I had gotten a job or started dating earlier, she would have impeded a lot of my progress (I may have just dropped a job at 16 or given up a boyfriend at 16, feeling that her treatment would never get better. By 18 and 19, I knew I wouldn't have to tolerate her too much longer).

 

I want to I found out about NPD in September 2010? So, close to 2 years ago now. It was late at night and I remember I just started crying. I knew my mom was off, but I always felt, again, it was my fault because I had pushed her, I had been "bad," I was an awful human being. Finding that was the first breath of relief I'd had...really all my life. It was the first impactful, "It's not your fault," that I ever experienced.

 

The first 6 months or so were very difficult. I moved out in April 2011 or so. So I was adjusting to a new life and working through what she had done to me. I had mostly worked through a lot of the anger, depression and frustration within the first year.

 

I strongly recommend reading books on the subject. I can't emphasize enough that you need to surround yourself with positive, supportive people. And try to build up your confidence a bit at a time - if you don't wear make-up or buy nice clothes for yourself, give it a try. Start out with smaller out-of-the-house jobs that you can handle and work your way up. And if you can afford therapy, baby, go for it.

 

I'm kind of at the point now where I can compartmentalize. I do sort of enjoy going out and going shopping with my mom. We have a shallow and superficial relationship...that used to bother me more, but I'm really not so bothered by it anymore. I have a wonderful fiancee, great friends, and other wonderful family members. You win some, you lose some.

 

I've also learned it's not my fault. Part of this is a result of having positive interactions with others as an adult. Part of it is going out and having my own achievements. The first time I did my own housework, all of it, for an entire week, I felt so empowered. I washed clothes and the WORLD didn't end, as she made me feel it had if I didn't do things so precisely.

[Radu]

 

I strongly recommend reading books on the subject. I can't emphasize enough that you need to surround yourself with positive, supportive people. And try to build up your confidence a bit at a time - if you don't wear make-up or buy nice clothes for yourself, give it a try. Start out with smaller out-of-the-house jobs that you can handle and work your way up. And if you can afford therapy, baby, go for it.

 

I'm kind of at the point now where I can compartmentalize. I do sort of enjoy going out and going shopping with my mom. We have a shallow and superficial relationship...that used to bother me more, but I'm really not so bothered by it anymore. I have a wonderful fiancee, great friends, and other wonderful family members. You win some, you lose some.

 

I've also learned it's not my fault. Part of this is a result of having positive interactions with others as an adult. Part of it is going out and having my own achievements. The first time I did my own housework, all of it, for an entire week, I felt so empowered. I washed clothes and the WORLD didn't end, as she made me feel it had if I didn't do things so precisely.

 

For the bolded part, i'll certainly try ... btw, show info on me.

I think i'll get red lipstick.

 

Man, September 2010, that was a tough month.

I won't say what happened but in that month something pulled me out of a 6yr depression.

One of those times when life takes a giant turd on you.

 

In January 2011 i got fed up with my dating life.

So i looked up 'how to be a player' on google, remembering something about PUA.

I found a forum, great forum.

Just a small paranthesis, PUA can be about picking up girls in a bar for ONS, but it can also be a constant struggle to better yourself in all aspects of life ... they are completely different currents.

I printed all of the material i could find on the forum.

It blew my mind, i looked up books. 3 weeks i spent every free moment reading and reading and reading, and when it was all done i understood that it was amazing, it applied to all human relationships.

 

I spent the next 6 months on that forum and another i joined to better understand women.

 

At some point i found a link on the PUA forum to a blog that had as objective to be a 'shrink for men', to help men in the western world with BPD spouses because there are no good shelters/resources available [won't discuss it further ... there are nowhere in the world].

I started reading up on BPD, histrionics especially and i realised that my first 3 gf's ... it was not me who was messed up, it was them.

The site took such a heavy toll on me, i started fearing women, so i joined this forum to balance myself, to move myself forward.

 

I've been here for close to 1yr now, but something amazing happened in this last yr.

I started talking with my mother about my roots, my heritage ... my extended family.

So i delved into my grandfather, into his family ... and i started seeing the patterns that were showing up in that blog about BPD's in his way of acting.

Steadily i started remembering more, just 2months ago i remembered i felt nothing for the man when he died. Nothing, and i was ashamed of it [i was 14], while i cried crocodile tears when i was 8 and he almost died in an accident, in fact my fast acting, calling for help ... probably saved his life.

 

For me it's about 1yr in the end since i've been doing this, and it's odd but my self-confidence is at an all times high for the last maybe ... 8yrs.

Discovering these new things about my grandfather has in a way ... taken something off my shoulders but also opened a path, made me understand where it came from, made me aware of the processes that are happening inside of me.

 

This may sound odd, but i think there are advantages to being in this club of ppl who had to deal with this.

I realised a while ago and told my parent's friends ... 'you guys raised your kids right and in this you messed up' ... yes i said this.

I told them that by not exposing us to the vile decrepit human beings out there in the world we did not get vaccinated, we did not have in a way the ability to maintain our own perception of reality, which in turn allows our own realities to fold into the black hole that is a NPD.

I say this because i have seen this happen with at least 3 of us 7 kids. 2 guys and 1 girl.

 

Also, have you guys also noticed the positive aspects of being like this ?

Have you become aware of the way you tried to manipulate an encounter.

It's like a reflex.

Let's face it, some of these BPD ppl who are high functioning, are quite succesfull.

I wonder, is it really that bad to use our inate by now abilities to manipulate when selling a product, a home, a car or making a pitch ?

I won't even dare to argue it's bad to the ppl we care about, but when we have to sell something, maybe even ourselves, our own services to a prospective client, is it really that bad to use this ability if we have it ?

I'm not referring to hard work DOT/RR, just manipulating an encounter like this.

[RiverRunning]

Haha, Radu, I know that you're male. I was speaking more generally at that point. But sure, go for whore red lipstick. You can work it, baby.

[RiverRunning]

That said, even just seeing manipulation happen doesn't mean everyone can do it. I think I have too much of a conscience. That kind of behavior just feels so unnatural and wrong. I really wouldn't know where to begin (as far as manipulating overtly). I'm sure I've manipulated others and not quite understood what I was doing.

 

I think seeing how I was raised really help me be...well, the opposite. I think I am going to be the only one in the entire scope of my family who will be able to give my cousin a somewhat decent safe haven from all of the other craziness. There's the darkness-abuse-etc. that can destroy people...and while NPD is bad (and for some, VERY bad. Well, BPD is pretty bad, too), it does force you to start adapting to survive.

 

Having seen what I've seen, though, I'm looking forward to having a relatively quiet and tame future (although, I guess by the standards of growing up in a house like that...my idea of 'quiet' and 'tame' might seem hectic to other people!).

 

I think there's a fine balance between exposing your kids to complete danger...and coddling them. My first boyfriend was 19 and so coddled I have serious suspicions that he had trouble wiping his own butt. Lunch money from his parents every week even though he was working, immediately caving to his cry-baby temper tantrums (I kid you not!). His mother did EVERYTHING for him. Handled all of his bills, his taxes, his college stuff. I remember, shortly after we broke up (we must've been around 21), he was on campus to change his major. Mama had to come with him to do all the talking!

 

I saw them, turned and walked away, then immediately collapsed against a wall and laughed when I realized she was with him (I may have spied on his MySpace blog, which is how I found out he was going to change his major. It was by accident I ran into him on campus a few days later while he was doing it). People walking by must have thought I was crazy.

 

But that kid is SO screwed because he never had to have any responsibility. He never faced ANY hardship because mommy and daddy took over. Meanwhile, autonomy and responsibility were a privilege I was more than happy to have. Take care of my own bills, my own schooling? Hell yeah!

[Radu]

Heh, you know that red is the color that men react to best, violet is the same for women.

If you are a guy and you meet a girl who only wears bright red lipstick ... you should run.

 

I wrote an example of what i meant by good manipulation but Google Chrome lived up to it's reputation and died on me with just 10tabs open, back to Firefox.

 

Less than 1yr ago we ended up in a 3way negociation with 2 other parties.

Towards the end we had some guests .. 4th party you could say.

I won't write the novel again, but it involved moving furniture when i was all alone, rearranging the room in a not so obvious way, stealing chairs [so they were presented to the guests by us], breaking up a speach ... many times, and overall sabotaging the other party in a not so obvious way.

I really don't feel guilty for what i did, because the other 2 parties tried to sabotage us and backstabbed us constantly before this, and for the first time we could dish out payback.

It was mostly done on instinct but for the first time i was aware of it happening.

Just like with mirroring, i can pick up fast on accents and mannerisms, in just a matter of a week for the former.

It can be good in negociation, but i am aware it is also a self-defense tool at it's core.

[RiverRunning]

I started thinking more about the "Wouldn't they say, 'I'm worth it' over visits instead of 'you never come see me?'"

 

I think that narcissism, as people commonly think of it, is...well...Narcissus, of course. They think it's somebody who gazes lovingly into their own reflection all of the time, just completely absorbed within themselves - that what is happening on the surface is what is happening inside of the person too.

 

The going theory of NPD nowadays, though, is that they think intense insecurity underlies the disorder. Someone who's very insecure, very jealous, etc., but has NPD, may display as being arrogant, selfish and so on. They want everything to look perfect for other people - even if that perfection requires major, major sacrifices. i.e., a daughter loses a ton of weight because she's anorexic or bulimic, but it's OK, because now she's thin and everybody can see that.

 

Anyone else have an NPD parent who's very jealous of others' relationships? My parents' marriage was never much. They both married young (19 and 26) and neither had lived on their own before. Apparently when they fought, they would destroy each others' things. As I got older, fights mostly consisted of my mom's stomping, screaming temper tantrums before she would storm off to her room. My dad would just sit there and take it.

 

They never really had anything - money was scarce, so we only went on one weekend trip or so that I can remember besides visiting family a state over here and there. But when I was a kid, they always had money to pay their bills. My mom never worked and claimed it was because my dad didn't want her to work while their kids were young. It's been 11 years since she had pre-teenage kids in the house. Why wasn't she going out and working then? She just uses that as a cover now because she doesn't want to work.

 

But my dad had a brother who married a semi-similarly crazy woman. My uncle cheated on my aunt with her own sister. She had a revenge affair. They divorced. Their fights were often explosive - screaming, swearing, throwing things at each other, hitting each other. Immediately after their divorce, they lived together again for another 15 years, then remarried. 5 years later, they want to get divorced again. My aunt will constantly call my mom to complain about my uncle.

 

But here's the only part my mom can focus on: my uncle, in the past, would pay to take my aunt on trips - to Florida, renting houseboats for the week, etc. He would buy her flowers randomly, buy her expensive jewelry, etc. Every time my mom thinks about this, she will rage to my dad, "(Aunt) gets everything and she treats her husband like ****! He treats her like gold! He buys her everything she wants, diamonds, rubies, emeralds, takes her on trips all the time! What do I get?"

 

I used to say, "But yeah, look at how awful their marriage is." Wouldn't even register. All the jewelry and vacations in the world aren't worth that kind of loveless disaster.

 

But that's exactly how a lot of narcissists think: how it looks. My aunt can bust out her vacation photos and show off her jewelry. It's a status thing. Who cares about the state of the marriage? You can hide that.

 

The sad thing is, even if my dad did become more like my uncle - and if he found the money to pay for all those vacations and the like - she would still be unhappy. She'd find someone else to be jealous about.

[Radu]

You wrote about your uncle buying stuff for your aunt and about how it looks to others.

All i could think was gawdy cheap fabric.

You know those restaurants where flies go to die on tablecloth, that bright red towards purple cloth with those punctures neatly covered by salt and pepper shakers ?

With that awesome dim yellow light, put through some form of lamp which dims it even more.

The pathetic fabric on the 'class' chairs, with cigarette burns, similar cigarette burns on the cloth, where the burn makes the edge hard, because it's plastic and you know it.

The waitress with bright red lipstick, massive circle earrings, face covered in foundation.

The Restaurant sign on the front reads 'Chez ...' in bright red neon signs.

That's what i picture when i read these posts here, i hope i haven't disgusted you with my descriptions.

 

As for Narcissus, maybe he did not dare gaze away from his reflection because he wanted to constantly be assured he is ok, maybe he was scared.

[capricorndreamgurl3]

I read up a little bit on NPD and my mother does have a few of these traits:

 

 

Reacting to criticism with anger, shame, or humiliation She will get angry every time tells her that she needs to quit smoking. We have been trying to make her quit smoking for some time to improve her health, but every time we tell her not to, she goes hysterical and gets pissed off BIG time.

 

 

Exaggerating their own importance, achievements, and talents During the wedding, my mom believed that she could do anything better than anyone, such as cook and make a wedding cake. This is why she didn't ask for help because she believed that she was Paula Deen on something. Her cooking is great, but I just got mad at her wanting to do all of that stuff, yet whining her arse off when she realized how swamped she was going to be. This is why I think she fits this symptom.

 

Imagining unrealistic fantasies of success, beauty, power, intelligence, or romance I don't know if this fits in here, but my parents always imagine themselves in a bigger and better house than the one they currently have. They also imagine running a business where my mom cooks and caters events. I am not sure if that is a NPD trait or just a normal thing.

 

Requiring constant attention and positive reinforcement from others Oh does she fit this one. She calls me 3 times a day sometimes to just to bitch and complain about something. And when she does talk to me in a normal convo, she bitches and complains ABOUT everything. I am not sure if it's for attention or if the woman is truly unhappy about EVERYTHING. Also, she gets mad when the DOG (yes the DOG) doesn't pay her any attention. She wants a dog that fully gives her it's undivided attention. Also, the taking the credit for my husband's idea for the wedding decor shows that she wanted it all to be a show about her and how she did all this work and how she made the wedding so wonderful. Just that martydm attitude. Then she whines about how tired she was afterwards, when I NEVER asked her to take on that many responsibilities.

 

 

Becoming jealous easily She is clearly jealous of the relationship with my in-laws and she always says that they make her look like an inadequate mother. I just think that it makes her feel good that I rely on her for everything. It makes her feel like Superwoman and allows her to polish her image even more. It's the same way with my husband. She is jealous that he is present in my life and being there for me better than she was. She always ignores him and doesn't include him in anything. She never invites him to do anything with the family all because she hates him and is jealous of him.

 

Lacking empathy and disregarding the feelings of others She's always been this way. I was never allowed to express my own feelings about anything. If I did, she would get so angry and take it as if I was sassing her. For example, when I was living at home, I was talking to my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time via the internet because the phone bills would get outrageous if we called each other. They had gone out of town that weekend and I really couldn't get in touch with my boyfriend that weekend, so that night was the first night I got in touch with him. We still had stupid dial up internet then and I was going to the kitchen to get something to drink and my mother starts yelling at me because she wanted to talk on the phone that night and I wouldn't let her because I was on the internet. She told me that I needed to get a damn job so I could pay for my own internet. I try telling her that she should have asked me to get off the internet if she really needed it. And she tells me me to shut up and she didn't ask me to say anything. She thought that I just had to assume that she needed it and that I was the one who was being the bitch. She apologized later in an email (too bad she couldn't really tell me all of this crap). It really shaped me too. I always assume that people aren't telling me what they are really feeling and they expect me to just figure it out on my own. It sucks.

 

 

 

Wanting "the best" of everything She always wants the best kitchen equipment and the best of everything, and she also expects that out of me too. When we were still living at home with his parents, we went shopping one day and I bought me a nice dress at Goodwill. She asked me where I got it from and I told her and she goes "I am going to have to give you money to go out and buy some real clothes". I was insulted because it wasn't like money was coming out of our asses at the time. That really made me mad.

 

 

So this is how I think she fits in with NPD. Sorry about the constant stories and making it mostly about ME. I probably have some of that crap embedded in me.

[capricorndreamgurl3]

You wrote about your uncle buying stuff for your aunt and about how it looks to others.

All i could think was gawdy cheap fabric.

You know those restaurants where flies go to die on tablecloth, that bright red towards purple cloth with those punctures neatly covered by salt and pepper shakers ?

With that awesome dim yellow light, put through some form of lamp which dims it even more.

The pathetic fabric on the 'class' chairs, with cigarette burns, similar cigarette burns on the cloth, where the burn makes the edge hard, because it's plastic and you know it.

The waitress with bright red lipstick, massive circle earrings, face covered in foundation.

The Restaurant sign on the front reads 'Chez ...' in bright red neon signs.

That's what i picture when i read these posts here, i hope i haven't disgusted you with my descriptions.

 

As for Narcissus, maybe he did not dare gaze away from his reflection because he wanted to constantly be assured he is ok, maybe he was scared.

 

That is an interesting an artistic view of the whole situation. It's if you are saying that they are trying to make everything seem so fancy and wonderful, but in reality, it's cheap and gaudy.

[Radu]

I couldn't verbalise my ideea in a few words before.

 

I think for them it's form over substance, whereas for most ppl it's generally substance over form.

 

Try it like this, buy a good looking cheap dress from a second hand store.

Wash it, and go see her.

Mention it was from some obscure collection, or high class shop.

Or better yet ... it came from Paris.

At a future date, mention the actual history of it.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Radu

[capricorndreamgurl3]

HAHA, I was just going to tell her it was from Kohls or something like that. I should have done that in fact. It's always about appearances with these people. Go figure