I'm currently not speaking to my mother

[dreamingoftigers]

I'll just give a quick short answer as to why she didn't get help.

She didn't realize she needed it.

When you are in that level of narcissism, you just think everyone else is falling short or not listening/understanding/co-operating with you.

It takes years of maturity abd emotional empathy to be able to have a sense of what is going on for another person. Without that maturity forget it.

 

I had BPD before going for EMDR trauma therapy. I guarantee you 110% that I could not see the effect my behaviour had on anyone else. All that I could see is how they hurt me. Even if that hurt was a reaction to something I had done.

 

It's not "rational" but raised under those conditions activates the "survival" part of the brain, not the "rational" one.

 

The rational portion of the brain won't really kick/in unless the survival portion is calmed. Your Mom "survived" but as a consequence didn't "grow up" or "empathize." Now you've grown past her emotionally because you've done work into finding out what has caused this.

 

The picture just gets bigger and bigger the more you examine it.

And yes, I understand completely resenting the process. It would be so nice for my parents to just grow up and stop some of the childishly ridiculous things they do. But there's isn't much sense holding my breath for it.

 

I'm still confused about why she never got help for herself.

 

I still remember years ago when her mother was coming over to visit. She was cleaning the house and she told me that if the house isn't clean, her mother criticizes her for it. If there's dust on a table she would point it out to my mother. I was very young at the time so it didn't click. But my mother is really crazy about cleaning. Now I see that's where she got it from. I did some googling and found out that perfectionism is a coping mechanism of kids raised by alcoholics. I'm betting she was criticized for lots of things. And she passed that down to me by criticizing me for things. Lucky me!

 

Here's the part where I feel confused. I feel as though I'm the parent now. I'm trying to figure her out and understand her. Growing up, I always wished she would try to understand me. When I lost my temper and called her names, I wished that she would ask me what was wrong. She never did. Now that I'm an adult, I am doing for her what she never did for me - trying to understand her and actually giving a crap about her feelings. I can't help but feel resentful of that.

 

She tried to be a good mother in lots of ways, but when it comes to anger she couldn't handle it. She couldn't handle her own feelings and she didn't know how to deal with angry people. She never taught me how to handle my anger properly, so I acted out against her, against the boyfriends I dated, anyone who treated me poorly I just shouted at them. I had to teach myself at age 28 how to be assertive because she never taught me.

 

I don't understand why she didn't get help. There are support groups for family members of alcoholics. Couldn't she see she was ruining her relationship with me? She and I have never been close. I've never trusted her. Couldn't she see that? Could she not see it was her own fault that her daughter hated her? I really did hate her for the longest time.

 

 

Also I have this question: Was she sometimes trying to treat me as the mother she never had? I really did feel sometimes that she was confessing things to me as if I were a friend. That stuff was inappropriate sometimes (like complaining to me how much money I cost her). Was she taught that it's normal to treat your child like an adult? Was she looking for a mother figure?

[turnera]

It's common for abused people to seek out others to parent them, even their own child, yes.

 

Why hasn't she gotten help? Well, there could be any of a dozen reasons, none of which have anything to do with you and everything to do with HER childhood. That's her choice. If you care about her, you can help her by getting info on possible treatments and sharing it with her.

 

Just this week, DD23 was spending hours with a depressed friend who refused to go to therapy, even though he said he's been suicidal for a month. He had every excuse under the sun for why he wouldn't go. But the bottom line is until THAT person isn't getting their 'fix' by continuing the actions they do, getting help won't be an option. Even if you forced them to go somehow, if it's not what they won't, it won't do any good. All you can do is explain to her how it's helped you or what it can do (most people are ignorant about what therapy really is).

[SpiralOut]

I'll just give a quick short answer as to why she didn't get help.

She didn't realize she needed it.

When you are in that level of narcissism, you just think everyone else is falling short or not listening/understanding/co-operating with you.

It takes years of maturity abd emotional empathy to be able to have a sense of what is going on for another person. Without that maturity forget it.

 

I just typed and deleted three paragraphs in an effort to understand this. It's not that I disagree with you. I do agree with you. It makes sense to me on one level. Still, I don't understand how it is possible for an adult to look at a child that way. Whenever I said something rude to her, all she could think about was herself. She cared how she felt. She didn't care how I felt. All that mattered was her. She's perfect. She doesn't do anything wrong. Her internal dialogue probably went something like this: "How dare this ungrateful brat speak to me that way? She needs to learn some manners. I won't even dignify that with a response. I'm not bothering with someone who talks to me that way."

 

 

It floors me that a person would react that way to a child. I don't get it. That sounds like severe low self-esteem. I've met some unstable, unhappy people but nobody who would react that way to a little kid . . . .

 

 

It's common for abused people to seek out others to parent them, even their own child, yes.

 

Why hasn't she gotten help? Well, there could be any of a dozen reasons, none of which have anything to do with you and everything to do with HER childhood. That's her choice. If you care about her, you can help her by getting info on possible treatments and sharing it with her.

 

 

I guess the better question then, is why didn't my father get her some help? Or maybe he tried to and she didn't want it. I don't feel ready to try and help her. Maybe once I've had more time to recover from the abuse she hurled at me, I can start thinking about helping her. Obviously I'm still resentful.

 

Good to know I'm not imagining the parenting thing. Guess I can't blame her too much for that. I know what it's like to grow up with a parent you can't trust, can't talk to about anything beyond surface talk. My father was good to me but wasn't the most emotionally open person ever. I also knew that whatever I told him, he would tell my mother anyway. I kept my problems all to myself growing up. At the time, I thought that was normal. Now, I look back and see how hard that is on someone.

Edited January 4, 2014 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

Most people on this planet NEVER give a moment's thought to how they're living their life, what they could improve, what's wrong. They just...live.

 

Especially people who were abused themselves as children, and who develop BPD and other issues. They, in fact, spend their lives reacting to others, fearing, protecting themselves, putting others down so they feel good, on and one and on. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

[SpiralOut]

Most people on this planet NEVER give a moment's thought to how they're living their life, what they could improve, what's wrong. They just...live.

 

Especially people who were abused themselves as children, and who develop BPD and other issues. They, in fact, spend their lives reacting to others, fearing, protecting themselves, putting others down so they feel good, on and one and on. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU.

 

 

 

Lol okay okay I get it. I guess that's the problem though.... that it was never about me. She was too busy making it all about her, to pay attention to me . . .

 

 

I can't help wondering if I myself have narcissism or some traits of it. If it got passed onto her, maybe it got passed onto me?

[turnera]

It could have. But you're here, seeking to become enlightened and improve yourself. That's miles ahead of any typical narcissist.

 

fwiw, I suggest grieving. Grieve the childhood you should have had, the parents you wish you had had, all the things that could have been so much better. Go through the grief stages (anger, sadness, etc.) and then dismiss it all and move forward. Don't give it any more space in your brain - it may have gotten you here, but it's no longer part of who you are.

[SpiralOut]

I agree that I should grieve. I've been taking the time to do that every now and then. It's painful to deal with . I'll keep on with it though.

 

 

My other question is how do I deal with her enmeshment issues? It deeply angers me that she thinks that she is me and that I am her. I am my own person but she seems unable to acknowledge it. If I express an emotion she doesn't like, she'll correct me and say "you liked it," or "that made you happy." It feels deeply intrusive.

 

 

Should I say something really blunt and straightforward like "please don't explain to me what my emotions are. I know that you wish I felt happy about that, but the truth is that I don't. When you ignore my feelings, it makes me feel disrespected."

 

 

What I need more than anything from her is for her to acknowledge that I am a separate person from her. My feelings are mine. I am me. I am not her. She does not define me. I do. On the surface, she will say "well of course I know you aren't me!" but she doesn't REALLY believe it. I know I can't make her believe it, but there must be some way to stop her inappropriate comments? Or make it so she's less likely to make them?

 

 

ETA: Actually I'm not so sure that I need that "from her" so much as I need to be respected as a person. It is not appropriate for anyone to behave that way towards me. It is a violation of my boundaries and I need to keep her away from my lines in the sand.

Edited January 11, 2014 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

It's good that you know boundaries.

 

 

What seems to be missing is your knowledge of those boundaries' consequences. Do you have any?

[SpiralOut]

It's good that you know boundaries.

 

 

What seems to be missing is your knowledge of those boundaries' consequences. Do you have any?

 

 

 

No I don't have any clear-cut consequences. If she pisses me off too much I'll just stop answering her phone calls and I won't speak to her again for a while. I don't communicate to her why I am doing that. I suspect that if I did, that she would give me a sarcastic and nasty response. Christ, she is horrible to deal with.

 

 

Another question: she often gives me advice that I didn't ask for, which is inappropriate for an adult to give to another adult. For example, she advised me to not make fun of my uncle for turning 60 years old even though I would NEVER even think to do such a thing. Another time, I mentioned wanting to get something for my apartment. She blurted out that I can't do that because my father bought me something like that when I was 10 years old and his feelings will be hurt if I put up a different one and not his. WTF?? My father understands that I am a grown women. I know he does not expect me to keep and display things from my childhood!

 

 

It REALLY bothers me that she tries to dictate to me the sort of relationship I am to have with other people in my life. I have my own way of interacting with others that is perfectly normal and I don't need her guidance in how to bloody treat my other family members.

 

Does she think that I am retarded? Or does SHE not know any better, so she decides that I must not know any better either, so she gives me the advice she wishes someone would give to her? And that's her idea of trying to be nice? Or does she think I'm an idiot? I find that sort of advice to be very condescending. I am so taken aback by it when it happens that I still don't know how to respond except by saying "umm yeah don't worry about it." lol.

 

 

So how do I deal with that? Should I say something like "I understand how to have a relationship with someone, please dont' give me advice unless I ask for it." ?

 

 

Under what circumstances should I create a consequence? She does so many things to piss me off, if I have a consequence for everything then I will be constantly threatening to stop speaking to her. It's like every 5-10 minutes she will say something inappropriate. I just don't know how to deal with it.

Edited January 15, 2014 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

For example, she advised me to not make fun of my uncle for turning 60 years old even though I would NEVER even think to do such a thing. Another time, I mentioned wanting to get something for my apartment. She blurted out that I can't do that because my father bought me something like that when I was 10 years old and his feelings will be hurt if I put up a different one and not his. WTF?? My father understands that I am a grown women. I know he does not expect me to keep and display things from my childhood!

No offense, but these things seem like more of an issue YOU have than egregiously bad things she's doing. Lots of people say annoying things to me, all the time, but it's on my whether I even hear them, let alone let them bother me. The above things? I would have turned the conversation around into something funny, or taken it in another direction. Instead, you just piled them on to the already huge pile of 'proof' that your mom screws with you. Don't sweat the small stuff.

 

My instinct is that you are so intent on being resentful of her that you can't allow anything she says or does to go unnoticed. Maybe that will change as you age and mature, IDK. I hope so. But if you go through life looking for hurts, well, you're gonna find them.

[turnera]

As for boundaries and consequences, it's really pretty simple. "Mom, your tone of voice upsets me so I'm hanging up now. Bye."

[SpiralOut]

 

My instinct is that you are so intent on being resentful of her that you can't allow anything she says or does to go unnoticed. Maybe that will change as you age and mature, IDK. I hope so. But if you go through life looking for hurts, well, you're gonna find them.

 

 

That's true. I can't stop resenting her. It doesn't matter how hard I try not to.

[youdunsay]

Oh and I also found out that she had invited my aunt and grandmother up for mother's day. And my grandmother had been asking about me, wondering why I wasn't there because she wanted to see me.

 

Instead of telling her the truth - that I had not been invited - my mother told her that I was too busy and couldn't make it.

 

My mother told me all of this on the phone. Like she felt guilty, or something, and wanted me to agree with her? WTF? My grandmother is getting older and she is in poor health. I don't get to see her often. I would have loved to have seen her. I'm not so upset about not being invited, as I am about the fact that she was dishonest about my reasons for not going. She made it look like it was me who didn't want to go.

 

 

Pay a visit to your grandma on your own. That's what I do now. My grandma was thrilled every time I dropped by her place lol.

 

As for your mum, you can ignore. Albeit understand that she cares for you, but in a nagging way.

[turnera]

That's true. I can't stop resenting her. It doesn't matter how hard I try not to.

That's what therapy is for. And remember that forgiveness isn't for the person you're forgiving. It's for YOU.

[SpiralOut]

I don't feel comfortable having a relationship with my grandmother. I haven't been able to admit it because of how terrible it sounds. She has never done anything wrong to me and I know she wants a relationship with me. I guess I've always picked up a weird "vibe" from that side of the family. If my mother learned her behaviour from somewhere, it must have been from my grandmother, right? My mother has an odd relationship with her where she loyally calls her each week, as if she cares. But the way she talks about her . . . it gives me a really bad feeling.

 

 

She talks about my grandmother in a way that is condescending. It is all negative stuff, but she covers it up with "being concerned." She never says anything good about her. She just talks about how my grandmother is depressed, not doing well, doesn't do anything interesting. She NEVER tells good stories about her. When you care about someone and they aren't doing well, isn't it normal to try and downplay that part, and up-play their good qualities? Tell stories about the good things they used to do? The way they used to be? I don't think my mother thinks much of her own mother but won't admit it. But then my mother encourages me to talk to her. I guess she feels sorry for her mother in the same way that I feel sorry for my own mother. The pattern has been repeated.....I feel so uncomfortable I don't even know what to do.

 

 

Even though my mother pisses me off with her intrusiveness, I think she genuinely has no concept of certain boundaries. She doesn't understand that it is weird and embarrassing to send flowers to your adult daughter's workplace on her birthday. Thank you for thinking of me, but that is humiliating. She doesn't understand that. When I explain it, she doesn't get it. When my father explains the same thing, she suddenly gets it. For whatever reason, she refuses to understand anything I say. I think she sees me as someone with less knowledge than her. She doesn't respect my opinion. She only listens to people that she thinks have equal/more knowledge than her. She needs to believe that she knows better than me. She needs to believe that someone is below her. I am someone for her to give (bad) advice to. Being around me allows her to feel competent. She is unable to acknowledge that I know anything. That's why she ignores me when I tell her I don't like what she is doing.

 

It's not about me. It sure feels like it sometimes, but it's not. I am just the easiest, most readily available person for her to project herself onto so that's what she did my whole life without even understanding what she was doing. She has social skill issues too, I think. I went shopping with her last year and she acted strange with the cashier.

 

 

I don't know if I'm angry anymore about the way she treated me, so much as I am upset that she passed poor social skills onto me. I have embarrassed myself socially many times, after following advice that she had given me. Her advice often gets me into trouble. My instincts are better than hers. I just never knew it before, because she taught me (perhaps by accident) that I don't know anything. I spent the first 27 years of my life thinking that I am socially incompetent. I believed that nobody was as bad as me. That's not true.

 

 

 

 

ETA: Also, the reason she continuously accused me of being a whore is because she herself was promiscuous. She must have been. After all, I never did anything to make her think I was doing that. She just made that up out of nowhere. She never saw me for me. She only saw me as bits and pieces of herself. She expected me to do something stupid because SHE must have done something stupid.

Edited March 8, 2014 by SpiralOut

[SpiralOut]

On second thought, maybe I'm angry about not having a normal mother. You know, the kind who doesn't belittle you, refuses to acknowledge you as separate person, and causes severe damage to your self-esteem. All because she is a bloody trainwreck of a person.

 

 

I feel as though she tricked me. I wish that she would have been more direct with her aggression instead of pretending to be nice and denying ever doing anything wrong.

 

 

I feel as though my father wronged me as well by refusing to acknowledge or try to fix the damage that his wife was doing to his daughter. Instead he just stood up for her whenever I tried to stand up for myself. He put his wife above his child. That's wrong. A parent should always place the wellbeing of their child first.

Edited March 8, 2014 by SpiralOut

[SpiralOut]

If my mother's mother treated her the same way my mother treated me, then I can see how she would become a narcissist. She probably got sick and tired of her feelings being ignored all the time. So as soon as she was able to, she tried to make up for it. She wants her feelings to matter for once, she wants to be important too. She makes everything about herself because she wasn't given what she needed and this is her way of trying to give herself what she needs. Making her own feelings matter more than those of her daughter must have felt like payback or "now it's my turn finally" to her. Maybe that is a normal phase to go through during recovery. However, she never finished her recovery. She never grew out of that phase. It became a permanent habit, and that's why she walks around making everything all about her.

 

 

If I am not careful, I will turn out the same way. I think I may have picked up a few of her traits already. I need to figure out how to be different, or at least manage the bad habits I picked up.

[turnera]

IMO, educating yourself is the best defense. I've read dozens and dozens of books about psychology, sociology, human nature, philosophy...it helps you step outside yourself and see the bigger picture, helps you see your actions and your family's actions in that bigger picture, so you can make the better decisions like you want. Books like Emotional Alchemy and Awareness and Awakenings really helped me with stuff like that.

[SpiralOut]

Thanks, Turnera. I've done tons of googling on proper parenting methods, emotional child abuse, stuff like that. I should read some books on it too. It's extremely validating to hear an expert say what is normal and what is not. That one book you recommended has some mindfulness stuff which I've heard good things about. I keep meaning to meditate more often. Maybe I'll check that out.

 

 

I just read the first 8 or so pages of this thread. I think I had trouble understanding her point of view because I could not see outside my own perspective. My entire life, I have refused to see things from her point of view. I didn't care how she felt. I was too angry about her crazy behaviour to care what she was thinking, and I hated it that she didn't care about me. It was an issue of "you don't care about me so why the hell should I care about you?". But doing that makes me the same as her.

 

 

The only way for me to be different from her, is to actually give a **** about how she feels and to try and understand her. She never did that for me, but I can do that for her. It doesn't matter if it's unfair, or if I think she's a bitch who doesn't deserve it. This is about me being a better person for my own sake.

 

 

This is going to be hard. I know that I inherited her "I don't care" attitude. Sometimes it can be good, but other times I just hurt people with it. I don't know how to stop it.

Edited March 25, 2014 by SpiralOut

[Celleste]

Why are you taking my mother's side? I have told you repeatedly that my mother does not care about my feelings when I try and speak with her. She blows me off.

 

I feel like you are advising me to be a doormat. Why?

 

 

You have to be real with her and tell her how you feel. I see you are holding in much needed words that you should express to your mother. Tell her that you're an adult, that you feel she doesn't respect you, that you feel that she doesn't care about your feelings, etc. She will get upset but she needs to know the ugly truth instead of a pretty lie.

[turnera]

The only way for me to be different from her, is to actually give a **** about how she feels and to try and understand her. She never did that for me, but I can do that for her. It doesn't matter if it's unfair, or if I think she's a bitch who doesn't deserve it. This is about me being a better person for my own sake.

Spiral, what you are describing here is growing up. You're maturing. Physically, psychologically, as we age into our 20s and 30s, we start understanding that there's a bigger picture to life than just our self-centered (that's not a criticism but an explanation of how kids and teens cope with the world) view of things. I remember being 20 and thinking my mom sucked, how could she dump me, etc. Five years later, after having to live on my own, take care of myself, take care of others, I began to realize that every life is complicated. Including hers. She had a completely different life than I did, a crappy one, but what she did with it was amazing. It forced me to see her in a new light, not one just based on how I had been treated. And even later, I realized, through my growing maturity, that not only had she treated me pretty damn well all things considered, but that I had brought on my own mistreatment myself!

 

Now I'm not saying you have - that's just my own personal story. I'm relaying it to get you to see that you are still changing, growing, learning, and what you believe one year probably won't be the same as what you believe the next. I've watched my DD23 grow and change SO much in the last 5 years since high school; something she knew she believed one year, she laughs at now. Someone she knew she'd never speak to again 3 years ago, she hung out with two nights ago. Because everyone is maturing.

 

So when you think of your mom, try to do as you're now considering - trying to understand her. Learn more about HER childhood and put yourself in her place, what would you have done? What would you have learned? Would you have become defensive or angry or scared or mean or self-protective? Would you have lost the ability to empathize with others? Think about it.

 

I firmly believe that, barring psychopathy, no human is bad. Just dealing with what they were dealt, in as good a way as possible, barring extra knowledge or help. She probably falls into that category.

 

Plus, having empathy or even pity for her will help you. Makes you a better person.

 

I'm proud of you, btw.

[SpiralOut]

 

 

 

So when you think of your mom, try to do as you're now considering - trying to understand her. Learn more about HER childhood and put yourself in her place, what would you have done? What would you have learned? Would you have become defensive or angry or scared or mean or self-protective? Would you have lost the ability to empathize with others? Think about it.

 

I firmly believe that, barring psychopathy, no human is bad. Just dealing with what they were dealt, in as good a way as possible, barring extra knowledge or help. She probably falls into that category.

 

Plus, having empathy or even pity for her will help you. Makes you a better person.

 

I'm proud of you, btw.

 

 

Thank you . . . well she rarely talks about her childhood. Over the years, the odd comment will come out here and there and that's it. I know very little about it. I'm unsure of how to broach the subject without being intrusive. I'll see what I can do, though. I really wish she would talk more about it. It would be so much easier to forgive her if I actually understood what she had to deal with.

 

 

Oh and she's talking to a hypnotherapist now to help with her "sleep problem." I use quotation marks because I am sure her issue is psychological stress that is coming out in the form of headaches, trouble sleeping etc. I think he is doing some counselling with her, without actually calling it "counselling." She told me that she is learning about projection and stuff like that. So maybe there is some hope.

Edited March 27, 2014 by SpiralOut

[turnera]

"How old were you when you learned how to ride a bike, mom?"

 

"I still can't figure out what I want to be. Did you always want to be a SAHM?"

 

"Did you go away to university?"

 

Stuff like that.

[SpiralOut]

yeah okay I can try stuff like that. guess I never tried to get to know my mother, since I hated her so much.

 

 

I think I know why (or partly why) she is so afraid of everything. I don't know if I explained this before or not, but she is very afraid of bad things happening. When she finds out about something bad that happened with someone, she freaks out. It doesn't matter that everything turned out okay, this person is fine, he handled it properly. She STILL freaks out. The event is fearful to her, even though it is over. Most of the time it isn't even that bad!!!

 

 

I think she doesn't believe in herself. She doesn't believe that she is smart enough or capable enough to handle certain people or situations. Maybe she forgets or doesn't understand that other people DO believe in themselves. It's possible also that she doesn't believe she will be okay if something bad happens.

 

 

I don't think she has any faith.

 

 

The sad thing is that she tried so hard to instill a sense of fear into me. When she explains something bad to someone, and they don't react with fear or horror, she thinks they do not understand. So she explains it again, over and over and over again, trying to make them understand how awful it was. At that point people get irritated with her and say "I UNDERSTAND," but she doesn't believe them. She thinks that everybody should be as afraid as she is over things.

 

 

When we went to buy a bus ticket, she couldn't even talk to the cashier even though she was paying. She asked me to talk to him for her!! And she acted as if I was SUPPOSED to be doing it for her. She didn't understand why I wasn't. Oh my god.

[bluegreen]

I have been following this thread since forever it seems.

And about 100 times now I wondered are you maybe my secret twin cause "her" your mom= mine almost to a T.

 

I wonder has any med professional diagnosed her and what did they say ?