Boundary setting question

[2sunny]

IF she is insisting on continuing the dojo - over choosing to work on your M - then you have your answer.

 

She's sitting on the fence... You need to take her off that fence, one way or the other.

 

When you know what she chooses - then you will have a place to begin... But until you fully understand whether or not she chooses the M or her exercise- you don't REALLY know what her priority is.

 

Make her show YOU what her priority is - the M or her hobby, which is it?

 

She should be capable of telling you within 2 seconds - and should.

 

IF she chooses the M - her hobby goes away and she begins working full time!

 

IF she chooses her hobby - the M goes away and she is free to create all the chaos she wishes, on her own dime - and at the risk of embarrassing herself, not you and the whole family.

 

Make her choose now.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Chiming in late...

 

It's probably reasonable for her to continue to go to her dojo. However, you should insist that she only do so on days that the OM isn't there. If he shows up at one of her classes, she must leave. Period, end of sentence.

 

Travelling to international competitions should only be acceptable where he isn't present. If he's going as well, she shouldn't go. Ideally, you should go with her to these.

 

She may see these conditions as too restrictive. But she did the crime, and must now do the time. It really comes down to a question of which is more important to her: her martial arts, or her marriage to you.

 

If she won't agree to these conditions, I think you have your answer.

 

I agree..... First and foremost I think you need to take a deep breath and take your time as your future is at stake. I'd first ensure the two can not have interaction in these sports. If they want to continue the A, can you really do anything?

 

More important, I do agree to start snooping, following, installing keylogger and whatever is necessary to make sure it has stopped.

 

As said I can only imagine how difficult it is and tell you I hope for the best.

[analystfromhell]

Others can chime in if they agree or don't but I would guess there is a 100% that the relationship is still going on- at least in each of their minds. Counsellors will often assume the wayward spouse is in control of their actions; I'm not convinced they are. The temptation is just too great and given the opportunity, it will start up again if it's not already still ongoing.

[2sunny]

Problem is - there hasn't been any boundary!

 

She's still participating the way SHE wants to... And she just expects you to accept that.

 

There's no healthy boundary in that.

 

That's her delivering you a big pile of poop and trying to pass it to you as something sweet.

 

It's poop! When she admits the poop she's been serving up is when you might know what's real.

 

In the meantime - IF you continue accepting her poop - know that you WILL get poop!

 

Know that it's gets real when YOU start saying that her poop isn't good enough for you anymore.

 

She needs to serve you the filet mignon - or decide to serve her poop to someone else!

[2sunny]

Others can chime in if they agree or don't but I would guess there is a 100% that the relationship is still going on- at least in each of their minds. Counsellors will often assume the wayward spouse is in control of their actions; I'm not convinced they are. The temptation is just too great and given the opportunity, it will start up again if it's not already still ongoing.

 

Ya think?

 

I'd bet big money that she IS still involved with him... Mainly because she hasn't had any real consequences!

[Ninja'sHusband]

We tried the alternating classes thing, I could handle that when I thought it was a one night affair and that she had come to me with it honestly.... but now I know it was a full blown affair complete with lies and deceptions with them sometimes not going to class at all but a hotel instead. No I can't handle her going to this dojo anymore, or any other because of all the events she wants to go to (where the OM will definitely be as well). I'm not going to hang out at seminars with the OM and my W just to babysit...yuck. I'm going to stick to my guns and leave if she doesn't commit to stopping classes. I'm going to give her until March 1st like we agreed in counseling and try to be a good husband until then (Harley suggests doing this for 6 months! ouch)

 

And I just got back from delivering the news to the OMW, it felt horrible. I was all shame and remorse as I left. She greeted me chipperly when I said that I knew her H. I handed her the cover sheet and envelope and she eagerly thanked me, not knowing what a horrible "gift" it was. The cover sheet told her that her H had done something very hurtful and that she didn't have to read the contents, but I wanted to give her the opportunity. I didn't actually verbalize anything, I just went back to my car after she thanked me. I waited 10 minutes in case she wanted to talk in person, but she never came out looking so I left. So far no response. Maybe she won't read it, maybe she'll give it to the OM, maybe she's just digesting (she's had very little time at this point), maybe she's waffling on what to do. I dunno, can only wait.

 

Hopefully it was the right move, that was a really hard decision and I'm still not quite sure...probably should have waited longer =\ We'll see what happens.

[2sunny]

Nope - it was right to give her what you know.

 

That way she can choose for herself based on what evidence is there... Instead of the lies he gives to her.

 

Expect the storm - only answer you need is "YOU created this by the way YOU participated".

 

It is HERS to own. If she doesn't show you EXACTLY what she's going to change- she won't quit cheating.

 

You have one question to stick with when your wife approaches and is angry with ou - "are YOU going to quit your hobby?"

 

If she won't answer - make her answer! Tell her "it's a yes or no answer!"

 

Make her answer yes or no. If she won't quit - she doesn't intend to repair the M.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Ya think?

 

I'd bet big money that she IS still involved with him... Mainly because she hasn't had any real consequences!

 

Probably shouldn't get into a back and forth on this, but I do believe it's over(for now) and my W has had lots of consequences. The last 3.5 months have been an exhausting hell for both of us. Granted if she had just told the truth we'd be a lot further...but yeah so the hell continues.

[2sunny]

Probably shouldn't get into a back and forth on this' date=' but I do believe it's over(for now) and my W has had lots of consequences. The last 3.5 months have been an exhausting hell for both of us. Granted if she had just told the truth we'd be a lot further...but yeah so the hell continues.[/quote']

 

But the fact remains - she hasn't given up the ability to stay in contact with her OM right?

 

Since she hasn't cut ALL ways to be in contact - she's still active in "seeing him".

 

If she is unwilling to give it up - you have your answer. The A will still continue.

 

She needs to willing to go to ANY length to SAVE the M! If she's not - then she still intends to see her OM. Any length includes no more hobbies! Any length includes moving far away - if need be!

 

Is she that willing? That's what YOU need to know!

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I handed her the cover sheet and envelope and she eagerly thanked me' date=' not knowing what a horrible "gift" it was. [/quote']

 

You did give her a gift. The gift of honesty and truth.

 

Remember that you did not cause this. Your wife and the OM brought this upon themselves; not you. They are responsible for the hurt; not you.

[Ninja'sHusband]

But the fact remains - she hasn't given up the ability to stay in contact with her OM right?

 

Since she hasn't cut ALL ways to be in contact - she's still active in "seeing him".

 

If she is unwilling to give it up - you have your answer. The A will still continue.

 

She needs to willing to go to ANY length to SAVE the M! If she's not - then she still intends to see her OM. Any length includes no more hobbies! Any length includes moving far away - if need be!

 

Is she that willing? That's what YOU need to know!

 

Yes I need her to commit to quitting, but she hasn't seen him in a class for quite some time. They've been alternating days, and recently she hasn't even been going to Iaido at all. I know she met with him in person once to try to get him to sign a "declaration of intent" that she came up with. He refused. She was doing that I think to make it safer for her to go to class. That meeting was behind my back but I think she was acting for the marriage in her own way.

 

So I agree with you on what she needs to do, but I think you are missing the point that they haven't been in contact. I've been watching like a hawk... The only time they were in class together was when I was there for one class, that was in November I think.

 

I will give you that it's possible I've been completely hoodwinked and they meet during the day, but he'd have to take off work...I dunno. Could be but I don't think so.

[drifter777]

Congratulations on telling OMW - that took courage and you stepped up and did it. Continue to shine a light on this dirty, disgusting secret and tell the Sensei at each of the Dojo's.

 

I'm going to stick to my guns and leave if she doesn't commit to stopping classes. I'm going to give her until March 1st like we agreed in counseling and try to be a good husband until then (Harley suggests doing this for 6 months! ouch)

 

What does being a good husband mean to you? Your wife had (has?) an ongoing affair with a married man & continues to see him on a regular basis at various MA classes. Why would you even consider waiting a single minute to demand that she quit going to the classes where she continues to see him? March 1st? Are you kidding me? Be a good husband and demand she end it right-freaking now!

[drifter777]

Yes I need her to commit to quitting, but she hasn't seen him in a class for quite some time. They've been alternating days, and recently she hasn't even been going to Iaido at all. I know she met with him in person once to try to get him to sign a "declaration of intent" that she came up with. He refused. She was doing that I think to make it safer for her to go to class. That meeting was behind my back but I think she was acting for the marriage in her own way.

 

So I agree with you on what she needs to do, but I think you are missing the point that they haven't been in contact. I've been watching like a hawk... The only time they were in class together was when I was there for one class, that was in November I think.

 

I will give you that it's possible I've been completely hoodwinked and they meet during the day, but he'd have to take off work...I dunno. Could be but I don't think so.

 

I posted previous before reading this but I wouldn't change a word. The NC must, MUST be enforced now! The two of them meeting behind your back? You watching like a hawk? Do you think they are going to meet up for sex WHILE you are watching like a hawk? You don't even know how long you were "hoodwinked" during the time they were together before you found out. Do you think OM might take some time off work for to have sex with your wife? By the way, where is your wife right now? Out of town with your daughter on spring break? Is it not possible for them to meet up while you're not watching them like a hawk?

 

The affair may be over, I certainly don't know. But she has plenty of opportunities to meet up with OM so stop kidding yourself about that.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Congratulations on telling OMW - that took courage and you stepped up and did it. Continue to shine a light on this dirty, disgusting secret and tell the Sensei at each of the Dojo's.

 

 

 

What does being a good husband mean to you? Your wife had (has?) an ongoing affair with a married man & continues to see him on a regular basis at various MA classes. Why would you even consider waiting a single minute to demand that she quit going to the classes where she continues to see him? March 1st? Are you kidding me? Be a good husband and demand she end it right-freaking now!

 

She hasn't been to Iaido in weeks at this point. Her intent is to go back though. She is waffling on an answer. Harley's strategy is to be clear about what you need (NC with OM), expose, and be patient and continue fulfilling your partners needs. Eventually things break down for them. If not you go to his "Plan B" which involves separation and NC with your WS, no more filling emotional needs. That way the last thing they remember of you is positive. I'm still pretty raw from discovering the full truth and have lost my temper a few times. I need to cool down and show her that I am trustworthy emotionally. I am not trying to outright destroy my M here, I do understand her POV...it's just opposed to mine, unfortunate. 2 weeks of being nice isn't going to kill me, especially if we both know what's coming at the end. It's like, ok, here's what you are going to lose <acts like we used to> then suddenly...ok that's it, bye! Harely recommends a lot more time...but I've already been through nearly 4 months of hell and don't want to do this much longer. If she continues abstaining from Iado, that helps..we'll see how I feel March 1st.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I posted previous before reading this but I wouldn't change a word. The NC must, MUST be enforced now! The two of them meeting behind your back? You watching like a hawk? Do you think they are going to meet up for sex WHILE you are watching like a hawk? You don't even know how long you were "hoodwinked" during the time they were together before you found out. Do you think OM might take some time off work for to have sex with your wife? By the way, where is your wife right now? Out of town with your daughter on spring break? Is it not possible for them to meet up while you're not watching them like a hawk?

 

The affair may be over, I certainly don't know. But she has plenty of opportunities to meet up with OM so stop kidding yourself about that.

 

A little tough, but probably right. But she's n adult and there is only so much one can do and for so long.

 

As a H of a W way into MA too, the fact is one has to quit the dojo and let the sensei play judge

[Ninja'sHusband]

I posted previous before reading this but I wouldn't change a word. The NC must, MUST be enforced now! The two of them meeting behind your back? You watching like a hawk? Do you think they are going to meet up for sex WHILE you are watching like a hawk? You don't even know how long you were "hoodwinked" during the time they were together before you found out. Do you think OM might take some time off work for to have sex with your wife? By the way, where is your wife right now? Out of town with your daughter on spring break? Is it not possible for them to meet up while you're not watching them like a hawk?

 

The affair may be over, I certainly don't know. But she has plenty of opportunities to meet up with OM so stop kidding yourself about that.

 

Yes she could easily evade me. Right now I know she is out of town, 6 hours, faaarr away from OM, who I know is at work because we work at the same company...very large company, and can verify and have been verifying her location every night. Her sister, who she is staying with knows about the affair. I can even tell when the OM is active at his work desk...that's why I was sure I could visit his home and deliver the msg to his W.

 

I can't mistrust my W for everything, that would be unfair. I want to heal, not be her jail guard...and the more I squeeze like that, yeah she'll slip through my fingers.

 

What's your experience? Do you have kids? Are you a BS?

[2sunny]

So SHE spent more time and energy creating a document directd at her OM - THEN met him behind your back - and then goes away for a long weekend purposely leaving you out = and YOU think this is a woman who is trying to reconnect with you?

 

I don't see any evidence that her intent is to build your trust - quite the opposite actually!

[2sunny]

The problem is - you are reacting to her actions instead of taking charge - you haven't set the terms so she is still calling the shots.

 

Big problem with that.

 

Being on the defense does NOT make for a good offense!

[Ninja'sHusband]

The PHYSICAL affair may not still be ongoing (hard to prove or disprove at this point, when she's away from the house so much at the same time he is for classes)....but....if she's got any kind of contact with him, the EMOTIONAL affair may well be continuing as well.

 

The affair ENDS when NC is in place. Right now...NC between her and him is NOT in place if she's still participating in recreational events where he is in attendance.

 

I'm not going to spend any further effort convincing you to do anything. This is YOUR marriage...it's up to you to do what YOU FEEL is the best thing for you to do.

 

I've given my reasons and suggestions.

 

Now it's up to you to do whatever it is you think is best, armed with that knowledge.

 

Ugh, just now reading this one closely...but when you posted it I had already left. I wasn't clear enough rereading my OP. They have only been in the dojo together once since I found out about the affair, and I was there as well. They've been alternating, and recently my W hasn't been going at all, she just plans to go back and I believe hopes to gain enough trust from me to be there with the OM present.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Hey guys thank you, I think I got what I wanted out of this thread. Confirmation that my demands are reasonable, and the added idea of contacting the OMW.

 

My W is trying to make things up to me in some ways, I haven't told the whole story of course. It's not like this conflict between us started yesterday...it started back in October. She's done some really good things, and some really bad. I gave enough info for you guys to comment on the stop training demand. I think it would take a lot more info for you to know if she was still cheating for instance. My counselor would be someone who knows more and I will listen to her there...and my own feelings. I appreciate your comments but yeah, like wisdom said, "brick wall". There's just too much info not communicated by me for stuff like that. I've painted a pretty horrible picture, but there's pluses too or I wouldn't be fighting so hard to keep my M. I made the No MORE AT ALL ultimatum about 2 weeks ago...but I did it while screaming, yelling, cursing, etc. I'll give it 2 more weeks, which is really not a lot of time compared to 14 years of marriage and a 9 yr old daughter's life. But it's about all I can take. Sorry if you want it shorter ^^ My life.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Your wife is a deceitful liar.

 

Do you understand, really understand, what that means?

 

It means she has a fundamental personality flaw that has long pre-dated your presence in her life.

 

Nothing you can do, no boundaries you can set for her, can change the way she is. Being a nice guy for another two weeks won't help. Being nice for your entire marriage didn't stop her from cheating, did it?

 

You can never trust her because you never could trust her.

 

If you decide to remain married to her, you will never be able to trust her. Ever. She will always try to lie to you and deceive you if she believes that is the best way to obtain something that she wants.

 

She is so deluded that she doesn't even have any real intention of permanently going no contact with her OM. She does not care about you. You are simply a vehicle to provide a support system for her selfish pursuit of her affairs and martial arts activities.

 

The sooner you realize what you are dealing with, the better off you will be. Your wife actually sounds like a sociopath. Or certainly NPD.

 

Ugh, you don't think I've felt that way? Of course I have, I can barely trust a word that comes out of her mouth right now...people change, I'm changing, I've seen her change a lot over the years. I need to turn the computer off lol...I'm getting sucked in. Anyway, we have plans and thoughts about all that, more than I want to go into on a public forum. I don't have any questions for you guys there. I'll continue reading books and working with our counselor. Forums for stuff like this is kindof a last resort for me...if I have a specific question again I'll be sure to post enough background info for ppl to answer.

[2sunny]

Nothing you could explain would justify her intent... Which is obvious. She's still spending time and energy staying involved - with the guise of it being her hobby.

 

Secondly - and equally as important - no woman attempting to reconnect - demands a weekend away from her husband.

 

Yet you are left here justifying her bad behavior.

Look - she left YOU for a weekend away! She's looking for ways to stay involved with events that surround her OMM!

 

That's enough for anyone assessing what's really going on.

 

Don't need more details - bottom line is - she's not choosing you.

[2sunny]

Ugh' date=' you don't think I've felt that way? Of course I have, I can barely trust a word that comes out of her mouth right now...people change, I'm changing, I've seen her change a lot over the years. I need to turn the computer off lol...I'm getting sucked in. Anyway, we have plans and thoughts about all that, more than I want to go into on a public forum. I don't have any questions for you guys there. I'll continue reading books and working with our counselor. Forums for stuff like this is kindof a last resort for me...if I have a specific question again I'll be sure to post enough background info for ppl to answer.[/quote']

 

You're helping her to cheat at this point - mainly because you are ALLOWING it.

 

Staying and justifying will never, ever make her bad behavior ok.

 

You can't love her into being faithful - its just not in her DNA.

 

Acceptance is key.

[2sunny]

I still am unclear what the new boundary is.

 

Allowing her more time and a weekend away isn't a solid boundary. It's just another way of saying that YOU aren't doing anything here. It's still handing her all YOUR power.

[Steadfast]

This fellow isn't the first to log on here, post up then get overwhelmed. He won't be the last. Let's remember how incredibly difficult it is to fight one's natural instincts of protection...both personal and towards the relationship.

 

I sure the survivors of the Titanic didn't want to jump off that warm ship and into a cold lifeboat. Watching the whole thing go under comes later.

 

I first visited here when the torpedo hit my marriage (didn't register) in 2008. It was too much to take in then. It was over a year before I returned.

 

Unfortunately, there will be others to take his place.