When good people have affairs

[Silly_Girl]

Absolutely. I just wonder how many sessions of bad behavior garners one a specific title, because some people go through life using and manipulating others for their own selfish reasons in many different ways.

 

Well, some LS posters believe that one indiscretion within a relationship labels you a cheat then, and forever. So in that instance the answer to your question, should that be the case, is 'one'. And sadly that would render everyone a 'bad person' forever, seeing as every single one of us has done bad things towards other people.

 

I guess it's subjective, thankfully.

[findingnemo]

My thinking on this is that the relationship between the husband and wife is not just based on the wants and needs of individuals, but on the shared understanding, responsibilities and dynamics of the 'marriage'. It may very well be that the dynamics of the individuals are rocky, yet the marriage as a seperate entity, may be working, the home may be ticking along, the kids happy, finances in order etc etc, but that the relationship between the individuals has become overlooked.

 

I too, don't understand why and how one of the individuals can feel entitled to make decisions that will have a major impact upon the other they share a life and marriage with. How hard can it be to sit down and talk or listen about problems, solutions etc? How can it be easier to seek self gratification at the expense of another and to top that, to lie about it, or to carry on with the pretence that one is OK while feeling it isn't, or worse still to plan to leave while making plans for the future that the other will have no part in while they continue to hold up their end of the marriage.

 

I have no gripe with people who fall out of love, meet another and end their marriage, I do with those that drag it on, lie and say one thing while meaning and doing another. Are those good actions? Very often the BS will continue to work and contribute to a marriage thinking they and the WS are singing from the same hymn sheet only to find that there has been an OW/OM, so while the MP is having an escape from the humdrum or the problems, the BS is holding things together believing that things are as told. Is it the fear that the BS will, on learning of an A, simply hold back from putting in the same as before to the marriage, spend their money on hotels, nights out, gifts (whatever), leave the kids for their own time out from the unhappy marriage. IDK, it all seems like having someone bake your cake and eating it all to yourself to me.

 

I think good people have affairs, I don't think the A is a good thing, possibly it is for the OW/OM as they have nothing invested in the marriage relationship, however, since reading on LS I have come to the conclusion that those that endlessly wait are in a worse position very often than the BS, it is why D Day is, IMO, the great leveller. Good people quickly realise that self gratification at the expense of another's hurt (either BS or OW/OM) is not a good thing, well not in my book anyway.

 

Being in an A for an AP is usually very difficult, IMO. In cases where the WS is saying all sorts of negative things about the BS, one wonders why the WS doesn't take active steps to leave. Then there are cases such as my A where the WS never ever says anything negative about the M except that you (the AP) are the one he loves. Although I knew that he loved me, I understood how well his M functioned and instinctively knew that he'd never be able to leave unless the BS does something terrible and gave him an out.

 

So yes, Seren, I also believe that even when one has issues with one's partner the rest of the M and the family unit as a whole may be working. The M, in xMM's case, was a separate and perfectly functioning entity. It still is. XMM never ever said anything bad about BS. But this thread has got me questioning the use of the description "good".

 

If we admit that nothing is perfect, then we must also admit that nothing is imperfect. A WS who isn't in an exit A is by the preceding statement acting immature and/or selfish. The same reasoning used to justify an A should be used to justify a D by simple logic, right? Here's where the selfishness comes in. A WS argues that x, y and z are lacking and for that reason he/she is engaged in an A. If you were to ask them if the lack of x, y, and z would justify a D, things become quite clear. You see a, b, c up to w are plentiful and when WS weighs negatives and positives, the M wins hands down. Although x, y, and z are important to the WS, they are not more important than the other factors. Why then doesn't the WS try to figure out how to get x, y, and z from the BS before going out there to supplement his/her M? Why have an A and then begin to analyze the importance of whatever is lacking?

 

How "good" is a person who will get involved in something that is bound to hurt every person in his/her life they claim to love? I'm not saying that MPs are evil but in the instance that they decide to engage in an A, they are far from good. As Donna ( I think it was) said, the title should have been "When People Have Affairs". The word "good" is an oxymoron and a stunt to attract MPs who desperately need support from anywhere and anybody. As for giving MPs the opportunity to clearly analyze their situations as per the criteria listed in the OP, that's fine as long as the book also encourages them to stop the subterfuge and deal with their M one way or the other.

[Silly_Girl]

How "good" is a person who will get involved in something that is bound to hurt every person in his/her life they claim to love?

 

I think you are stretching it a lot there, really. Every person the MP claims to love is hurt?? My man loves his mum, and his siblings and they've been overjoyed he moved on AND met someone who makes him happy.

 

Even his wife (who claimed to love him...) who was hurt by the affair said that they probably should have stayed split the first time around.

 

And then there's those who do hurt people in their life, maybe by willfully losing their job, or gambling, or whatever. I don't know that we can lable those 'bad' people. Bad decisions, lazy attitude, foolishness, but I have met some 'bad' people and some of them will cheat, some won't. And some people who cheat will be 'bad' and some won't.

[Untouchable_Fire]

My H and I might have had a little of two of them, but zero of others. I have all five with my AP.

This is a great book for those deciding whether to leave their primary relationship to be with their AP.

 

When women say this kind of stuff it's usually a pile of horsecrap.

 

My cheating xGF was a huge fan of books like this and she had us go through several of these together... and we scored near perfect on each.

 

Yet when she was cheating she claimed just like you that we had only one or two. Personally, I don't think she was telling a lie at either point. I believe when we first started together she felt all those things... and at some point she stopped feeling those things.

 

I know it's pointless to even ask you to consider these things as it requires the ability to step back and be logical.

 

Truth is that your just searching for some way to rationalize crappy behavior. You are not a bad person IF this is beyond your control, or you can demonize the H enough.

 

The question you really need to answer for yourself is... are YOU a good person?

[SoMovinOn]

I too, don't understand why and how one of the individuals can feel entitled to make decisions that will have a major impact upon the other they share a life and marriage with. How hard can it be to sit down and talk or listen about problems, solutions etc?

 

Why do people lie about anything? It's not just A's, it's a whole host of other things spoused keep hidden from each other - everything from something as mundane as how often they masturbate, to little white "feel good" lies (No. That dress doesn't make you look fat, you're always beautiful to me!), to alcohol, drugs, gambling, how much they spend shopping...

 

Then of course there is the mistaken assumption people involved in A's *haven't* made an effort to sit with their spouse and talk openly about their problems. Just as some BS's choose to stick their head in the sand and ignore an affair, it's likely an even greater number who choose to stick their head in the sand and ignore problems. Another option is the couple did/does discuss their problems and cannot arrive at a suitable solution. Perhaps one suggests MC and the other refuses to go. Perhaps one suggest they split and the other refuses to agree to do so...

 

There are as many possibilities as there are people and couples. As with anything else, assuming sweeping generalities rarely works in understanding the reality.

[SoMovinOn]

And someone lying to and manipulating people like that for their own selfish benefit - would you say they were a "good person?"

 

I would say I want to look at a person in their entirety when forming my opinions about whether they are a "Good person" or a "Bad Person". I prefer to not judge anyone on a single factor. Just as I wouldn't say a career criminal who has spent a majority of his life committing violent crimes is a "Good Person" because he saved the life of a single child, or donated a large sum of money to a charity, I likewise wouldn't say someone is a "Bad person" based on a single factor.

[donnamaybe]

Ah, yes. Here we go with those "little white lies" that are told to spare someone's feelings being compared with the sneaking around and forcing your partner to live a complete lie of a life with a cheater.

[SoMovinOn]

Ah, yes. Here we go with those "little white lies" that are told to spare someone's feelings being compared with the sneaking around and forcing your partner to live a complete lie of a life with a cheater.

 

Yeah... alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling... minor things all of them.

[Spark1111]

Yeah... alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling... minor things all of them.

 

That may be the exception. You may be the exception. Surely you are not here trying to convince us that the majority of those in affairs are dealing with a spouse who has so many issues, are you?

[donnamaybe]

That may be the exception. You may be the exception. Surely you are not here trying to convince us that the majority of those in affairs are dealing with a spouse who has so many issues, are you?

It's just another tactic that basically is saying, "See? There are much WORSE things than sneaking around behind your spouse's back, lying to them, and boning some other person!"

 

Um, yeah. There are serial killers too. That's a MUCH worse thing to do. But that isn't what this thread is about. It's about cheating.

[2sunny]

Ah, yes. Here we go with those "little white lies" that are told to spare someone's feelings being compared with the sneaking around and forcing your partner to live a complete lie of a life with a cheater.

 

Those lies are usually designed to spare the cheater consequences for their behavior... No doubt about that!

[SoMovinOn]

That may be the exception. You may be the exception. Surely you are not here trying to convince us that the majority of those in affairs are dealing with a spouse who has so many issues, are you?

 

I was answering the question "How hard can it be to sit down and talk or listen about problems, solutions etc?" ... and the answer is, it can be very difficult at times. The problem which needs to be discussed could be potentially devastating, embarrassing, or be particularly difficult to solve.

 

I made no indication as to whether I thought these other problems might co-exist along with infidelity, although, certainly, there would be instances where infidelity is not the lone issue. In any event, that isn't relevant to the question or my answer to the question.

[SoMovinOn]

It's just another tactic that basically is saying, "See? There are much WORSE things than sneaking around behind your spouse's back, lying to them, and boning some other person!"

 

Um, yeah. There are serial killers too. That's a MUCH worse thing to do. But that isn't what this thread is about. It's about cheating.

 

So, if I understand what you're saying here Donna... you didn't understand my response to the question and were looking for clarification. Is that correct?

 

The question was "How hard can it be to sit down and talk or listen about problems, solutions etc?"

 

My answer is; Depending on what the problem is, it can sometimes be extremely difficult.

 

Hope that helps.

[SoMovinOn]

Those lies are usually designed to spare the cheater consequences for their behavior... No doubt about that!

 

That is one of the first thing children learn about lying - that doing so can sometimes help them to avoid consequences. I would imagine that a good percentage of lies are told with the intention of avoiding consequences. An additional reason would be to continue the behavior.

[Cabin]

I'm always amazed when people who judge the "goodness" of others are the leading moral-antagonists in these threads.

[donnamaybe]

That is one of the first thing children learn about lying - that doing so can sometimes help them to avoid consequences. I would imagine that a good percentage of lies are told with the intention of avoiding consequences. An additional reason would be to continue the behavior.

 

I would hope there would be further learning beyond childhood, like responsibility and accountability and integrity.

[Spark1111]

I was answering the question "How hard can it be to sit down and talk or listen about problems, solutions etc?" ... and the answer is, it can be very difficult at times. The problem which needs to be discussed could be potentially devastating, embarrassing, or be particularly difficult to solve.

 

I made no indication as to whether I thought these other problems might co-exist along with infidelity, although, certainly, there would be instances where infidelity is not the lone issue. In any event, that isn't relevant to the question or my answer to the question.

 

I so get this!

 

Except, imagine this: I am married to a man who breaks his back; becomes a legal drug addict on every med known to man; is in and out of work; goes cold turkey off the pain meds and starts to yell at people in our support group (he has no memory of it) who abandon us because they do not truly understand substance abuse and withdrawal.

 

Clean and sober, he re-enters the job market with the high=pressured position of our dreams. I beg him to go to counseling, but he refuses so I go alone. OFF the meds, he grows anxious, insecure and depressed.

 

He then crashes into his AP. a co-worker who knows NOTHING of his past. Lonely, divorced and vulnerable, she thinks he is amazing; he needs someone to reinvent himself with. He adores the flattery and validation. I become the bad guy.

 

The perfect storm.

 

Look, I do not fault you for your choice, your resilliency, your compassion, or your choices.

 

I just find it rather odd that you side with those who justify cheating for romantic reasons. Few have the same scenario as we do. The majority did not/ have not dealt with what we have dealt with......

 

And they will never understand.....but I do, although I never took that path despite many an opportunity to do so.

 

And certainly you can understand why I visit LS four years after DDAY. i come here to deal with my resentment. And my resentment is huge.

[Spark1111]

I would hope there would be further learning beyond childhood, like responsibility and accountability and integrity.

 

Donna, I so wish this was true!

 

As a mother, I learned very early that children lie because they are afraid!

 

In my childhood, we were told "Whatever you do, tell me the truth! I may be angry and you may be punished, but not half as much as if you lie to me! (My mother, my grandmother, etc.)

 

When you struggled to tell the truth of your misdeed, the punishment lessened! And it was here you learned that the admission of truth, as painful or embarrassing as it may be, was RESPECTED and resulted in a lesser punishement!

 

I tried to practice that as a mom of three.

 

Now imagine your parents extract the truth out of you as a young child and the punishment worsens!

 

What is the incentive to be truthful again? Nada. Zip. Zero.

 

And here is where a child learns to lie; to avoid conflict through deceipt; to avoid consequences by lying their innocence to disapproving, jugemental parents. And it becomes a reflex reaction.

 

I too hope those who lie to avoid painful consequemces would outgrow it in adulthood.

 

Unfortunately, traits learned in childhood can become lifelong habits unless forced to unlearn them in adulthood.....like a cheater on DDay.

[Severely Unamused]

I'm actually planning to buy this book off Amazon.

 

Two interesting quotes I got from the reviews section.

 

"Allowing your partner to make their own decisions whether to stay or leave shows you respect their autonomy. It also shows a willingness to surrender total control of the outcome."

 

"The author puts cheaters into 2 categories -- the elite "good people" and "the really screwed up people".

So the author calls cheaters bad people, too...she's just singled out the ones who bought this book and calls those people the "good people".

However, people should be judged by their character and behavior, not by their inherent self-worth.

So instead of asking, is this a good PERSON, you should instead ask, is this a good PARTNER?

And I don't mean a good parent to the kids or a good provider of material things...I mean a good partner, a true friend, to you."

 

Anyways, I'll see if it's any good.

 

And certainly you can understand why I visit LS four years after DDAY. i come here to deal with my resentment. And my resentment is huge.

 

How are you dealing with your resentment?

[donnamaybe]

A parent breaking their word to their child would indeed result in some problems going forward into adulthood. There is no way I would get the truth out of my child only to turn their honesty against them. In addition, there have been times when one of my kids has reaped enough punishment by their own actions, and I felt the lesson they had taught themselves was the best lesson they could ever learn so didn't impose further punishment. I guess there are as many parenting styles as there are parents though.

[seren]

SMO, I agree that for some people conflict avoidance is or rather, can be one of the reasons people have A's rather than look at, talk about or admit that they have issues that need to be discussed with the person they are sharing their life with. It isn't just BS who bury their heads in the sand, many times it is the BS who asks and asks what the problem is only to be told nothing, or worse still, have things turned around so they are the problem. I still cannot for the life of me understand how an A is easier than talking, nor do I think that it gives someone carte blanche to lie.

 

My H, when asked why he couldn't come to me to talk about how he felt on his return from Iraq, his feelings on not being a good enough person, his answer was that he felt not good enough. I then have to look at whether I was doing anything that made him feel that way, BUT, he also has to look at why he felt that way and why he felt that an A was the answer. It's not a finger pointing game but a joint approach to identify what went wrong and how to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

 

TBH, for me, the A was the worse thing I have had happen to me and I have had a lot of bad crap from childhood onwards. The breaking of trust s a hard thing to get over. Drugs, alcohol, gambling I could have dealt with, breaking trust and playing with my emotions took longer. IMO, it helps to realise that the both of us were experiencing the same crap time, yet one of us took the decision to have an A, if it were for love I would have understood it better, but it wasn't. Not all A's are the same, not all marriages are the same either. Sometimes A's are all about the WS and how they manage situations and sometimes it is because the WS loves another. Either way, the outcome is usually the same, the BS gets hurt and that is not, in my life acceptable for the gratification of another.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I'm always amazed when people who judge the "goodness" of others are the leading moral-antagonists in these threads.

 

You are right. Morals don't exist. The only important thing is that you suffer no consequences for your actions. Right?

 

Nobody can say "this is good" and "this is bad", because that would just be too damn inconvenient for you.

 

For those people who are actually adults and act responsibly... there is no moral ambiguity.

[Mme. Chaucer]

4. Who you are with each.

 

That strikes me as weird. I really hope that by the time we are fully mature adult people, we have passed the stage of being different people depending upon who we're hanging out with.

 

I will say that from my experience with affairs, a person who is in a comitted relationship and having one would be collecting some unflattering (to most) descriptions of "who" he or she is when with the AP, like "liar," "sneaky," "self serving," "promise breaker," etc.

 

Regarding the accusation of "moral-antagonist," I guess if having a moral compass that happens to value honesty and honor is a problem for some folks (and I know from experience that it's helpful to villainize people with those traits when we are working very hard to justify eschewing then ourselves), then that's just the way it is.

 

When you put things involving the concepts of morality out for discussion, you are going to get reactions from those of us who do value different things than others do. I think that's normal.

[Severely Unamused]

The only important thing is that you suffer no consequences for your actions.

Well yeah. Like SMO said, that's generally why people lie. I know that's why I lie.

 

Perhaps a change in methodology is in order. Rather than having people on this board say "Well hey, I'm not so bad and neither is this affair (I thought that life was so morally complex that words like good or bad were redundant. Hence why the title of this book sounds like a cheesy marketing ploy and nothing more)" one could say "I know that what I'm doing is ethically wrong in respect to person X's feelings, but I simply don't care enough to stop because of my own personal reasons".

 

Of course, this is a rather callous way of putting it. Maybe people don't like admitting that they are more callous than they think they are?

Edited November 22, 2011 by Severely Unamused

[woinlove]

I'm actually planning to buy this book off Amazon.

 

Two interesting quotes I got from the reviews section.

 

"Allowing your partner to make their own decisions whether to stay or leave shows you respect their autonomy. It also shows a willingness to surrender total control of the outcome."

 

"The author puts cheaters into 2 categories -- the elite "good people" and "the really screwed up people".

So the author calls cheaters bad people, too...she's just singled out the ones who bought this book and calls those people the "good people".

However, people should be judged by their character and behavior, not by their inherent self-worth.

So instead of asking, is this a good PERSON, you should instead ask, is this a good PARTNER?

And I don't mean a good parent to the kids or a good provider of material things...I mean a good partner, a true friend, to you."

 

Anyways, I'll see if it's any good.

 

You must be a patient person, willing to read this book. Please give us a review if you do read any noticeable chunk of it. I'm scratching my head at how she views the cost of treating someone with respect, particularly someone whom you are married to and supposedly may want to remain married to. Can anyone imagine being married to this woman? :laugh:

 

I take it the second bolded statement is your own. It sounds too sensible for this author and would negate her title.