When good people have affairs

[White Flower]

Yes, this was the point I was trying to make in my previous post. I think most couples feel that they have the majority of those connections in the first place (when they marry), so the important question is what happened along the way for that to be gone? If you don't figure that out in the first place, you might just repeat the pattern with a new partner.

 

Hence the purpose of this book.

[2sunny]

wasn't your AP asked to move out by his W?

 

either he was too weak to make the DECISION himself - or he was so sneaky that he wanted his W to look like the bad guy(gal) enough to make her miserable and mad so she asked him to leave.

 

either way - THAT kind of person isn't one i could/would feel i could trust - much less feel connected to them.

 

he's a schmuck - any way you try to look at it.

 

he also had you participate in an evening where both you couples got together - then you criticized his wife afterwards here on LS - no wonder you are still his "secret" - it will be difficult to get out from under that dark cloud you've created around the two of you.

 

 

as long as you are his secret - it's hard to imagine this having any happy ending.

[White Flower]

Sorry for the T/J but I gotta butt in here. The above.......a lot of people and we have some posters who have said such, say that there wasn't a fault with the marriage, it was something inside of the person, not the marriage or the BS. The above assumes it's always the BS or the marriage that is at fault.

 

Personally I believe in some cases it's the marriage, and in other cases it's something inside of them that causes someone to go outside the marriage.

 

I don't mean to speak for Spark but from reading her posts, she believes in her case it was something inside of her husband that was broken, not the marriage.

I actually believe the same as you on this subject so I don't know where you get that I assume anything. You've presumed incorrectly.

[White Flower]

I am all for making life altering decisions that enable a person to find happiness.

 

Where we differ is I would tell my spouse I am considering making life-altering decisions that may or may not include him in my future.

 

To me, that's pretty simple.

 

In a perfect world.

 

As my poli-sci prof would say, "Everything is politics". He could tell you, then you might try to change who you are. But if it's a chemistry problem, as Lady Gray suggests above, then there is nothing a BS can do to solve the problem. If the WS tells of any possible changes before doing the necessary reading and self-discovery, he/she risks the other party making a decision for them, which could have dire consequences if the WS was considering staying M.

 

In a perfect world we could read each other's minds and never be surprised with unexpected outcomes.

[2sunny]

i also believe it's something inside the person cheating - and IF they don't have enough integrity when they realize they could/should D first (before they cheat) - then they just move forward with intend to harm others before proper order (getting the D FINAL before entering into a new R before the first one is finished).

 

no two ways about causing harm to self or others - there's NO WAY to argue integrity.

 

IF you even THOUGHT for a moment you liked or loved this guy more than you enjoyed your H - you could have divorced him before starting to spend time with this married other man... but you didn't.

 

there's no judgement in that - just working from YOUR evidence - and my belief that we shouldn't cause harm to self or others.

[Severely Unamused]

he/she risks the other party making a decision for them

 

Well gosh, you say that like it is a bad thing...

[White Flower]

 

I am amazed at a) how many cannot define their unmet needs to their spouse, or b) assume they know the answer of response their BS would give them.

 

I know I did with my exH!!! Until I was blue in the face.

 

As for MM, it took him a while to learn, but he did eventually learn to communicate with his BW; yet, there were some chemistry problems that just couldn't be fixed.

 

I am further amazed by how many a WS never verbalized how unhappy they were, demanded MC, and honestly told their spouse that if we cannot resolve a, b, and c, I will need to leave the relationship.

Again, done, done, done. 3 MCs and 25 years later returned no positive results. He was informed! I asked him to leave but he refused for quite some time. So I got on with my life.

 

I am amazed at the conversations they do not have with their affair partners; how they allude to a future as they sit on fences trying to keep the spouse and AP; how they string both women along forever.

 

I see a pattern here. Don't you? A poor communicator who has trouble verbalizing their needs, or when they do, rarely act to execute them. If they cannot verbalize their needs, they tend to blame others for their unhappiness.

 

Cowardly and conflict-avoidant, IMHO.

 

Conflict-avoiding, yes, but to assume there is poor communication and a lack of conversation between APs is just a misnomer. If I talked until I was blue in the face with my H you can rest assured I've done the same with MM. Luckily he enjoys our talks thus far.

[SBC]

I am amazed at a) how many cannot define their unmet needs to their spouse, or b) assume they know the answer of response their BS would give them.

 

I am further amazed by how many a WS never verbalized how unhappy they were, demanded MC, and honestly told their spouse that if we cannot resolve a, b, and c, I will need to leave the relationship.

 

I am amazed at the conversations they do not have with their affair partners; how they allude to a future as they sit on fences trying to keep the spouse and AP; how they string both women along forever.

 

I see a pattern here. Don't you? A poor communicator who has trouble verbalizing their needs, or when they do, rarely act to execute them. If they cannot verbalize their needs, they tend to blame others for their unhappiness.

 

Cowardly and conflict-avoidant, IMHO.

 

Thank you for this post

[White Flower]

 

I am further amazed by how many a WS never verbalized how unhappy they were, demanded MC, and honestly told their spouse that if we cannot resolve a, b, and c, I will need to leave the relationship.

 

 

 

MM and BW saw at least 2 MCs that I'm aware of and they went to a couple of M retreats which involved counseling. Nothing worked, and he tried his best. He really did.

[White Flower]

Well gosh, you say that like it is a bad thing...

 

Well isn't it if in the end he decides his W was the right choice after all?

[donnamaybe]

Well isn't it if in the end he decides his W was the right choice after all?

 

And if the MM decides to keep both - and both have a low enough sense of self worth to allow it...?

[2sunny]

Well isn't it if in the end he decides his W was the right choice after all?

 

WF -

 

are you saying that you are still waiting for your MM to make a decision?

 

i haven't seen you here for a long while.

 

i had hoped you were busy moving forward...

 

hugs

[SoMovinOn]

Yes, this was the point I was trying to make in my previous post. I think most couples feel that they have the majority of those connections in the first place (when they marry), so the important question is what happened along the way for that to be gone? If you don't figure that out in the first place, you might just repeat the pattern with a new partner.

 

That would seem to be the logical assumption, but, thinking of all the people I've known who have told me why they got married, surprisingly, finding "The One", someone they clicked with on "so many levels" is *not* what comes up as often as one might guess it should.

 

With younger women getting married for the first time, I often see a focus on their dreams for "The Wedding", with little regard for whom they are marrying or what might happen all the days after the wedding. I am surprised when they tell me how they can't stand to be in the same room as their BF for too long, or when they complain about all the issues they have with him and how he's going to have to change once they get married.

 

Younger men seem to often get married with the idea they will get laid every day... they think she is going to be their beautiful, wonderful, amazing, sex princess.

 

I would have to say, in my experience (just thinking conversations I can remember), getting married because they are "perfect together", seems to only come up with older people, usually on their second M.

[Severely Unamused]

IF you even THOUGHT for a moment you liked or loved this guy more than you enjoyed your H - you could have divorced him before starting to spend time with this married other man... but you didn't

 

The WS could simply be honest beforehand. A divorce may or may not even be needed.

 

Certainly one's ego can handle the idea of being "replaced" by another (Not really the best word to use perhaps)?

 

It would certainly be better than having your WS do all of this (rather goofy IMO) sneaking around. I exclude cases where the BS is violent and/or mentally unwell, in which case, sneaking around may be necessary.

 

I've actually seen younger couples display higher levels of honesty and flexibility (at least where I live) when it comes to situations like these. It's interesting to see people's changing attitudes towards marriage.

 

Well isn't it if in the end he decides his W was the right choice after all?

He may very well have made his choice, but if his wife leaves, than clearly her choice is not compatible with his. Edited November 21, 2011 by Severely Unamused
Brain fart.

[2sunny]

If he's already chosen to stay (and has stayed for an extended time) he's already MADE his decision. He just hasn't said it with words... Staying is his action - which tells everything he's not going to say.

[woinlove]

In a perfect world.

 

As my poli-sci prof would say, "Everything is politics". He could tell you, then you might try to change who you are. But if it's a chemistry problem, as Lady Gray suggests above, then there is nothing a BS can do to solve the problem. If the WS tells of any possible changes before doing the necessary reading and self-discovery, he/she risks the other party making a decision for them, which could have dire consequences if the WS was considering staying M.

 

I am always surprised at people who trick a spouse in order to keep them married to them under false pretences. We see that attitude here among some WS --- she would leave me if she knew and I want to stay married to her. Sounds like users, those who manipulate others through false pretences to get what they want. Not the way I want to live and I would not want to tie my own life to such a person.

 

 

In a perfect world we could read each other's minds and never be surprised with unexpected outcomes.

 

No need for mind reading if one has the capacity to connect with others -- open and honest communication with one's partner works great. If one can't connect meaningfully with others, perhaps because one is a user as I mentioned above, then working on oneself is worth a whole lot more than mind reading.

[frozensprouts]

.

If the WS tells of any possible changes before doing the necessary reading and self-discovery, he/she risks the other party making a decision for them, which could have dire consequences if the WS was considering staying M.

 

In a perfect world we could read each other's minds and never be surprised with unexpected outcomes.

 

 

I am interested to know what "self discovery" means in this context? Does it mean therapy, reading self help books, attending seminars, having a "fling"?

 

This is so unfair...you say that the risk is that the spouse risks having their husband/wife make a unilateral decision or them... isn't that exactly what you advocate doing here?

 

I mean really, if the spouse who has concerns talks to their spouse, then the two of them can decide together what they want to do. If one spouse says they have are having some problems, the the two of them can sit down together and try and find solutions, etc. as a team. I can't picture one spouse( a husband, for example) saying to his wife"i am having some issues in our marriage, can we talk about them" and his wife saying "that's it, the marriage is over"... ( I would think that if that happened, there wasn't much there to start with anyway). Now if the husband says " i have issues in our marriage and I cheated", then the wife may very well make the unilateral decision to leave, and why shouldn't she?

 

By the husband not taking to her about his feelings until he knows what they are ad deciding what he wants to do, he is deciding for his wife what will happen. After all his "self discovery", should he just spring it on her one day" i'm not happy and i'm leaving"?

[seren]

My thinking on this is that the relationship between the husband and wife is not just based on the wants and needs of individuals, but on the shared understanding, responsibilities and dynamics of the 'marriage'. It may very well be that the dynamics of the individuals are rocky, yet the marriage as a seperate entity, may be working, the home may be ticking along, the kids happy, finances in order etc etc, but that the relationship between the individuals has become overlooked.

 

I too, don't understand why and how one of the individuals can feel entitled to make decisions that will have a major impact upon the other they share a life and marriage with. How hard can it be to sit down and talk or listen about problems, solutions etc? How can it be easier to seek self gratification at the expense of another and to top that, to lie about it, or to carry on with the pretence that one is OK while feeling it isn't, or worse still to plan to leave while making plans for the future that the other will have no part in while they continue to hold up their end of the marriage.

 

I have no gripe with people who fall out of love, meet another and end their marriage, I do with those that drag it on, lie and say one thing while meaning and doing another. Are those good actions? Very often the BS will continue to work and contribute to a marriage thinking they and the WS are singing from the same hymn sheet only to find that there has been an OW/OM, so while the MP is having an escape from the humdrum or the problems, the BS is holding things together believing that things are as told. Is it the fear that the BS will, on learning of an A, simply hold back from putting in the same as before to the marriage, spend their money on hotels, nights out, gifts (whatever), leave the kids for their own time out from the unhappy marriage. IDK, it all seems like having someone bake your cake and eating it all to yourself to me.

 

I think good people have affairs, I don't think the A is a good thing, possibly it is for the OW/OM as they have nothing invested in the marriage relationship, however, since reading on LS I have come to the conclusion that those that endlessly wait are in a worse position very often than the BS, it is why D Day is, IMO, the great leveller. Good people quickly realise that self gratification at the expense of another's hurt (either BS or OW/OM) is not a good thing, well not in my book anyway.

[donnamaybe]

This withholding of pertinent information from one party is all about selfishness - nothing more.

[Mme. Chaucer]

This withholding of pertinent information from one party is all about selfishness - nothing more.

 

Yes. Obviously, it angers me to see it glorified here.

 

I would not spend any precious minutes of my life reading a self-help book such as the one promoted in this thread, but just the bits that have been shared hit a raw nerve with me.

 

It's presented as if a person is involved in an EMA, and now they're sitting with a workbook studying about whether they should select the relationship with their spouse, or the affair, as their primary relationship.

 

It kind of throws out the window the whole concept of other people being involved. Not just the BS - but even the AP. Really, a person involved in an affair is not usually in the position to make selection A or B and then live happily ever after with their unilateral choice.

 

Since I won't read a book like this (not just because it appears to be written to assuage the feelings of people who have affairs by telling them they're "good"; mostly because I don't care for pop psychology books aimed for mass marketing), I can't really know if I get the real point.

[frozensprouts]

This withholding of pertinent information from one party is all about selfishness - nothing more.

 

i agree...

 

this is why i think men/women who lie to their affair partners are being very cruel to them as well as their spouses. They may be giving the impression that they will leave their marriage for them, as things are going really well, but the whole time they are trying to figure out what they want to do.

 

why can't they be honest and tell their affair partner and spouse that they don't really know what they want, and let them decide if they want to stay with them or go.

 

I think the reason is because they are afraid they will chose to go, so rather than take that risk, they lie.

[donnamaybe]

i agree...

 

this is why i think men/women who lie to their affair partners are being very cruel to them as well as their spouses. They may be giving the impression that they will leave their marriage for them, as things are going really well, but the whole time they are trying to figure out what they want to do.

 

why can't they be honest and tell their affair partner and spouse that they don't really know what they want, and let them decide if they want to stay with them or go.

 

I think the reason is because they are afraid they will chose to go, so rather than take that risk, they lie.

And someone lying to and manipulating people like that for their own selfish benefit - would you say they were a "good person?"

[frozensprouts]

And someone lying to and manipulating people like that for their own selfish benefit - would you say they were a "good person?"

 

i have to say that at that point i time, no they aren't... but this does not mean they weren't before and can't be again

[donnamaybe]

i have to say that at that point i time, no they aren't... but this does not mean they weren't before and can't be again

Absolutely. I just wonder how many sessions of bad behavior garners one a specific title, because some people go through life using and manipulating others for their own selfish reasons in many different ways.

[frozensprouts]

Absolutely. I just wonder how many sessions of bad behavior garners one a specific title, because some people go through life using and manipulating others for their own selfish reasons in many different ways.

 

i've often found that people like that are quick to use others, but even quicker to get very upset should they feel that they are being used or treated badly.