When your SO makes subtle comments that you need to lose weight

[ColorCube]

You bullying Johan by entering his thread to tell him he's not the ultimate, and mock his feelings.

 

I see someone quoted an old thread I posted on so I thought I needed to make an appearance. So the newbies who post here haven't figured out yet that **** ***** is a bully?

[zengirl]

I agree with this point.

 

I have never personally made improvement in my life out of any criticism where I felt "hurt." Some people may prefer the "tough love" or "I'm just being honest" approach. That just never works for me and it is my belief it doesn't work for the majority of people. This is not to say I think the reverse, being coddled, is effective either. I can make improvement with criticism when I feel the person making the criticism is overall generally supportive of me.

 

FTR, I don't think anyone makes improvement from feeling hurt. I think that it hurts when you resist identifying problems is all. . . that's what the "hurt" and truth I was referring to was. Identifying problems is key to improving them. Which makes you feel worse. But you sometimes have to feel worse to feel better.

 

And, of course, criticism tempered with support is better. But who's to say that all the ingredients need come from the same person? I think both critical people and unconditionally supportive people are necessary in everybody's lives. . . and we also need to be both critical and unconditionally supportive of ourselves (though in ourselves, it relies on a contradiction, which is really hard to do!).

 

Have you ever been in the flush of love, and suddenly you find yourself motivated to making all kinds of positive changes, whether it be looking for a better job, or getting in better shape, or feeling more confident? I just think positive reinforcement is simply more effective. I am not saying this out of a Pollyanna-like attitude. But in general I think a positive approach works more than a negative one.

 

I think it depends where you are and what you're doing. But how could anyone get a flush of love from a message board? This is all going to be purely intellectualized advice, and what you're speaking of is an emotional idea.

 

It's possible some people are different and prefer a more hard-line, direct approach. I can be very direct myself, but there is a fine line between being so direct and critical that your well-intentioned advice/criticism simply isn't even processed because the person is busy processing the hurt they felt from the comment instead.

 

True, and had ES said, "Step off, my clothes are fine," I would not have disagreed with her. (What she did say later was pretty ugly, more so because it was planned---I actually could've understood it as a kneejerk emotional response, but she said she'd been weighing it for awhile---as was what she said about BBWs.) How ES feels about something MAY be relevant, but unless she can positively assert herself, I don't see why this matters.

 

And by assert herself, I don't mean playing the victim and thanking her advocates. I mean actually saying why she felt the comment was not okay in a clear way and asking for the treatment she wants. But the problem with that, in a thread like this is: What did ES want? My money is still on validation. She wanted validation her BF was a jerk about this too. She wanted validation that she looks good. She wanted validation that she could be successful in dating and that her weight didn't hold her back.

 

I could be wrong, but I can find no other reason to create such a thread and invite people to look at your pictures and say some of the things she said. And, you can't go looking for validation that way; if you keep wanting it, you'll never find it.

 

If ES wants validation, here's my suggestion. Create a thread asking for it directly. Say, "Hey, I'm feeling down, tell me something nice about myself." I'd bet good money that SG could come up with something nice for that thread, and she probably would. But that's just my bet. And I'm as fallible as anyone and could certainly be wrong.

[Chocolat]

True.

 

 

I think if you treat someone like they should be handled differently for their unhealthiness, you're only prolonging and encouraging said unhealthiness. But there are many different views. That's just mine.

 

I agree that I wouldn't handle someone differently except in extraordinary cases (true mental illness, for instance).

 

That said, I think it's possible to give advice and even criticism in a positive way. Perhaps it's similar to "love the sinner, hate the sin." It's possible to be critical of a poster's actions without being critical of his/her being. What I see coming from some posters is not here is another way to approach this situation that may help you achieve growth and ultimately happiness but let me tear you down because you have had the audacity to ignore my advice and even to post again!

 

I wanted to ETA, but cannot.

 

I wanted to say that, funnily enough, I DO see this type of behavior (I wouldn't call it bullying in this case, FTR, since I don't think the person on the receiving end would choose to be a victim) going on in this thread. But not in SG's controversial BBWGate comment or from her at all.

 

Again, mileage may vary and frequently does.

 

(And if my hint is unclear: TBF is doing it. I always prefer to be assertive, or if I must, aggressive instead of passive aggressive.)

 

Yes, my mileage varies considerable. Is it passive agressive if I don't name names? Suffice to say that this is not the first time the concept of bullying ES has come up. I don't have the time or patience to go back through ES's old threads and cull the remarks that would prove this point, but my recall is that the same voices can be heard making the same derogatory comments. Frankly, what baffles me is why anyone feels compelled to saying anything if they realise they have nothing good to say.

[OliveOyl]

I think it depends where you are and what you're doing. But how could anyone get a flush of love from a message board? This is all going to be purely intellectualized advice, and what you're speaking of is an emotional idea.

Well that was just an example, I didn't mean people will be feeling such flushes of love through this message board. If they do then that's awesome!

 

But I do think there is a definite emotional component to online communication, including even a message board such as this.

[zengirl]

That said, I think it's possible to give advice and even criticism in a positive way. Perhaps it's similar to "love the sinner, hate the sin." It's possible to be critical of a poster's actions without being critical of his/her being.

 

Well, personally, that's certainly what I try to do, which is why I went with my "lazy work today" analogy several pages back. Of course, I also play around with practicing anatta (no self), so the concept of someone being a sinner or a saint or anything in stasis is not really in my mind. People are who they are in the moment and free to change at any time. I try to suggest positive changes. Most of the time, I even try to be nice, so long as it doesn't cramp my honesty.

 

What I see coming from some posters is not here is another way to approach this situation that may help you achieve growth and ultimately happiness but let me tear you down because you have had the audacity to ignore my advice and even to post again!

 

Interesting. It's a mileage issue again. If I saw that (the latter), I'd be bummed out by it too. It's totally not what I see; I try to look at a poster's intent, and that's not how I see the intent that's discussed here at all. I don't think SG wants ES to stop posting. I mean, I do think she wants her to take her advice, or someone's advice, and go in a new direction . . . but that to me isn't a bad intent. But, really, it's impossible to know anyone's intentions on here. Or frankly if anyone is real. For all I know SG, TBF, and ES are all the same person, giving us quite a show. (I don't really think so, but I have no way of knowing unless I get my BF to do some fancy computer stuff with IP addresses or something. . . )

 

Yes, my mileage varies considerable. Is it passive agressive if I don't name names? Suffice to say that this is not the first time the concept of bullying ES has come up. I don't have the time or patience to go back through ES's old threads and cull the remarks that would prove this point, but my recall is that the same voices can be heard making the same derogatory comments. Frankly, what baffles me is why anyone feels compelled to saying anything if they realise they have nothing good to say.

 

To me, anything honest and well-intentioned is good. But that's just me.

[zengirl]

Well that was just an example, I didn't mean people will be feeling such flushes of love through this message board. If they do then that's awesome!

 

But I do think there is a definite emotional component to online communication, including even a message board such as this.

 

Oh, and I wasn't trying to be snippy or flip with that comment, FTR.

 

I guess I don't see anything emotional about communicating on a message board personally, so it's hard for me to imagine that. (That doesn't mean I'm right. Just explaining my POV.) To me, all of this is a purely philosophical, intellectual, and practical endeavor. I wish all of you well and for good positive healthy behaviors from everyone, surely, but I have no emotional attachment to any of it.

[Chocolat]

Well that was just an example, I didn't mean people will be feeling such flushes of love through this message board. If they do then that's awesome!

 

But I do think there is a definite emotional component to online communication, including even a message board such as this.

 

Absolutely agree.

 

There are posters I consistently read because they manage to offer advice in a way that is non-threatening and productive. Their online tone makes me want to hear them. I feel I learn from these posters, even when they are providing advice on issues that are not currently relevant to me.

 

Conversely, there are other posters who draw out the worst in me. In some cases, I write a reply, then delete it rather than press "submit reply." I am mindful of the adage: Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience. Ok, the grammar is awful, but the sentiment is accurate.

[Chocolat]

 

Interesting. It's a mileage issue again. If I saw that (the latter), I'd be bummed out by it too. It's totally not what I see; I try to look at a poster's intent, and that's not how I see the intent that's discussed here at all. I don't think SG wants ES to stop posting. I mean, I do think she wants her to take her advice, or someone's advice, and go in a new direction . . . but that to me isn't a bad intent.

 

Ahhh... we are definitely having different mileage here! I don't think "intent" is enough, unless you are talking about small children. As adults, we have a responsibility to think through our actions and consider not just how we intend them but how they are likely to be perceived. On an internet board we can take all the time we need to think out a response, review it, tweak it, etc. Unlike face-to-face situations, where hurtful words can be blurted inadvertently, a forum allows us the luxury of carefully selecting our words. It should be fairly easy to ensure that our words are aligned with our intent.

 

I have a hard time reading some of the posts in this and other ES threads and seeing good intent.

 

Thanks, ZG, for allowing us to discuss and even disagree so civilly.

[zengirl]

Ahhh... we are definitely having different mileage here! I don't think "intent" is enough, unless you are talking about small children. As adults, we have a responsibility to think through our actions and consider not just how we intend them but how they are likely to be perceived. On an internet board we can take all the time we need to think out a response, review it, tweak it, etc. Unlike face-to-face situations, where hurtful words can be blurted inadvertently, a forum allows us the luxury of carefully selecting our words. It should be fairly easy to ensure that our words are aligned with our intent.

 

I have a hard time reading some of the posts in this and other ES threads and seeing good intent.

 

Thanks, ZG, for allowing us to discuss and even disagree so civilly.

 

I don't disagree with the bolded (well, not fairly easy, but MORE easy, at least; words are crazy things; Art Critic and I had to discuss above to hammer out definitions, after all, and he's a poster I genuinely respect and thought had misunderstood me---and that seemed to be the case in the end---though I think he's very intelligent and I select my words just fine; but different people have different word issues).

 

However, I think there are four parts to a message:

*Intent

*Compositon/What It Says

*How It's Read

*Reaction to How It's Read

 

I will take responsibility for intent and composition, but not the last two. Nor do I expect anyone else to take responsibility for the last two on what they write. Again, just me.

 

And I'm happy to discuss civilly too. I think (well, hope) I usually meet civil disagreement with civility.

[torn_curtain]

Frankly, what baffles me is why anyone feels compelled to saying anything if they realise they have nothing good to say.

 

I agree. Or worse if they believe the person they are giving "advice" to a lost cause. That's where the poster's intent in dishing out said advice really comes into question.

[Chocolat]

However, I think there are four parts to a message:

*Intent

*Compositon/What It Says

*How It's Read

*Reaction to How It's Read

 

I will take responsibility for intent and composition, but not the last two. Nor do I expect anyone else to take responsibility for the last two on what they write. Again, just me.

 

 

I am really stuck on the concept of perception as it relates to intent. If my intent is to get my 5yo to stop chattering while I am on the phone, and I turn to her and shout, "Can't you be quiet for 5 minites? Do you have to bother me every time I am on the phone?" you can argue that my intent is benign enough - I need to hear my caller. But surely my child will be hurt by such an approach. And surely, as a parent, I am aware that there are less damaging and more effective ways to communicate this message to my child.

 

There are posters here who I am convinced have the intelligence to recognize how their words will be perceived but nonetheless throw barbs and then disingenuously hide behind intent when called on it. This is not something I have seen you do, ZG, but I do observe it in this thread and others.

[zengirl]

I am really stuck on the concept of perception as it relates to intent. If my intent is to get my 5yo to stop chattering while I am on the phone, and I turn to her and shout, "Can't you be quiet for 5 minites? Do you have to bother me every time I am on the phone?" you can argue that my intent is benign enough - I need to hear my caller. But surely my child will be hurt by such an approach. And surely, as a parent, I am aware that there are less damaging and more effective ways to communicate this message to my child.

 

There are posters here who I am convinced have the intelligence to recognize how their words will be perceived but nonetheless throw barbs and then disingenuously hide behind intent when called on it. This is not something I have seen you do, ZG, but I do observe it in this thread and others.

 

Right, that's poor composition (in your example). I'd agree. And I would never pretend to always be above poor composition -- in life or on here. Especially if you seek honesty, sometimes you're going to cross a line.

 

And I wouldn't disagree that there are posters here who sometimes have poor composition of their points. I'm not even sure I'd disagree that SG sometimes has poor composition of her points to ES (not as poor as she's accused of and not every time TBF attacks her for her points in an ES thread---if we want to talk patterns, this is certainly one) or others.

 

I would even say that the poor dress comment was perhaps impolite (and apparently I did say that---sometimes I forget when threads get as long as these), though I do kind of disagree with the very idea that it's ALWAYS impolite to tell someone **** like that (that comes more from my background than anything else, which I think I explained earlier; there are plenty of countries where saying something like that to a woman you barely know is perfectly acceptable and standard form of communicating). And I've explained in depth how this absurd thread invites stuff like that and is kind of rude in and of itself.

 

And, frankly, many of us will fail at composition sometimes. And some of the times people are offended truly are miscommunications (the BBW thing, in my re-read, is totally a miscommunication, and SG is not the only poster who misunderstands the term). That's life.

 

However: None of that adds up to she's a bully whose weight and life should be dragged into it and berated by TBF in the name of "defending" ES. And it certainly doesn't add up to: she's responsible for every possible perception of her intent. Clearly, there are a variety of perceptions of her intent here. Which one is true, we really don't know. But I think some posters have assigned her motives I just don't see. Now, if you want to take a post and say, "Hey, the way you express this is kind of rude," that would be a totally different phenomenon and get closer to perhaps addressing the composition. But that's just my view of it.

 

(And it kind of feels awkward to talk so much about SG, so I do apologize if it comes off as rude; I'm just trying to detail what I've observed in this thread.)

[torn_curtain]

Right, that's poor composition (in your example). I'd agree. And I would never pretend to always be above poor composition -- in life or on here. Especially if you seek honesty, sometimes you're going to cross a line.

 

And I wouldn't disagree that there are posters here who sometimes have poor composition of their points. I'm not even sure I'd disagree that SG sometimes has poor composition of her points to ES (not as poor as she's accused of and not every time TBF attacks her for her points in an ES thread---if we want to talk patterns, this is certainly one) or others.

 

I would even say that the poor dress comment was perhaps impolite (and apparently I did say that---sometimes I forget when threads get as long as these), though I do kind of disagree with the very idea that it's ALWAYS impolite to tell someone **** like that (that comes more from my background than anything else, which I think I explained earlier; there are plenty of countries where saying something like that to a woman you barely know is perfectly acceptable and standard form of communicating). And I've explained in depth how this absurd thread invites stuff like that and is kind of rude in and of itself.

 

And, frankly, many of us will fail at composition sometimes. And some of the times people are offended truly are miscommunications (the BBW thing, in my re-read, is totally a miscommunication, and SG is not the only poster who misunderstands the term). That's life.

 

However: None of that adds up to she's a bully whose weight and life should be dragged into it and berated by TBF in the name of "defending" ES. And it certainly doesn't add up to: she's responsible for every possible perception of her intent. Clearly, there are a variety of perceptions of her intent here. Which one is true, we really don't know. But I think some posters have assigned her motives I just don't see. Now, if you want to take a post and say, "Hey, the way you express this is kind of rude," that would be a totally different phenomenon and get closer to perhaps addressing the composition. But that's just my view of it.

 

(And it kind of feels awkward to talk so much about SG, so I do apologize if it comes off as rude; I'm just trying to detail what I've observed in this thread.)

 

What would you imagine as the intent behind somebody giving persistent criticism to a person they believe to be "unfixable"?

Edited August 13, 2011 by torn_curtain

[Star Gazer]

I am really stuck on the concept of perception as it relates to intent. If my intent is to get my 5yo to stop chattering while I am on the phone, and I turn to her and shout, "Can't you be quiet for 5 minites? Do you have to bother me every time I am on the phone?" you can argue that my intent is benign enough - I need to hear my caller. But surely my child will be hurt by such an approach. And surely, as a parent, I am aware that there are less damaging and more effective ways to communicate this message to my child.

 

The major difference here is that ES is a grown, adult woman, not a 5 year old. "Can you XYZ, just for once? Do you have to do that every time? UGH!" is quite different to someone who's akin to an adult cousin or sister, not your small, impressionable child.

 

What would you imagine as the intent behind somebody giving persistent criticism to a person they believe to be "unfixable"?

 

I've explained what I meant when I retracted the statement that the problem was fixable in the thread in question. It would really help if you'd use my words in context. You can twist anything anyone says into something bad, if you ignore the context.

 

Further, it's really rude to continue bringing me and my posting style/choice of words up in a thread that's supposed to be about someone's relationship post portum. Why don't you start a thread about me or the off-topic subject you're beating like a dead horse?

 

(I imagine someone will take offense to that rolling eyes smiley, but at this point, I really don't care. This is insane.)

Edited August 13, 2011 by Star Gazer

[threebyfate]

(I imagine someone will take offense to that rolling eyes smiley, but at this point, I really don't care. This is insane.)

Yes, it is insane to keep defending your abuse of ES.

[Star Gazer]

What is insane is your hypocrisy in this thread. I may have lacked tact in talking about ES's clothing choice, and my (and others') BBW mistake was unfortunate, but it absolutely was not my intention to hurt ES's feelings (if I even did! She hasn't even said as much!!). Abuse requires intent to hurt. I did not have that intent.

 

On the other hand, you have made it your mission and crusade to attack me and put me down, and you just won't let up! For what reason, I have no idea. If I were you, I'd truly be embarrassed for myself.

[Star Gazer]

To TBF: Even if SG were somehow following ES around to maliciously attack her (which I just don't see), do you find your behavior in the recent pages of this thread truly acceptable? By your own standards?

 

Not surprisingly, I never saw this question answered.

[threebyfate]

What is insane is your hypocrisy in this thread. I may have lacked tact in talking about ES's clothing choice, and my (and others') BBW mistake was unfortunate, but it absolutely was not my intention to hurt ES's feelings (if I even did! She hasn't even said as much!!). Abuse requires intent to hurt. I did not have that intent.

 

On the other hand, you have made it your mission and crusade to attack me and put me down, and you just won't let up! For what reason, I have no idea. If I were you, I'd truly be embarrassed for myself.

There's a pattern to your behaviour in most of ES's thread. The BBW comment is just one of many, many examples of bullying.

 

I'm being "honest" with you, much like your "honesty" with ES over a period of years, in thread after thread after thread. Why are you so defensive about my honesty?

[Star Gazer]

There's a pattern to your behaviour in most of ES's thread. The BBW comment is just one of many, many examples of bullying.

 

I'm being "honest" with you, much like your "honesty" with ES over a period of years, in thread after thread after thread. Why are you so defensive about my honesty?

 

If it's okay for you to bully me with your "honesty," why can't I also be honest with ES, even if that amounts to bullying in your eyes?

 

If you're trying to lead by example, you're failing miserably.

[threebyfate]

If it's okay for you to bully me with your "honesty," why can't I be honest with ES, even if that too amounts to bullying in your eyes?

 

If you're trying to lead by example, you're failing miserably.

Are you now admitting to bullying with your "honesty" with ES?

[Star Gazer]

Are you now admitting to bullying with your "honesty" with ES?

 

Absolutely not. Read again. "...even if that amounts to bullying IN YOUR EYES." I do not believe my BBW comment or suggesting more flattering clothing was bullying. You do.

 

You, on the other hand, are bullying me. You are. You're making personal attacks and you won't let up. You won't let up. It's......outright scary.

[threebyfate]

Absolutely not. Read again. "...even if that amounts to bullying IN YOUR EYES." I do not believe my BBW comment or suggesting more flattering clothing was bullying. You do.

 

You, on the other hand, are bullying me. You are. You're making personal attacks and you won't let up. You won't let up. It's......outright scary.

I see. Still no balanced insight into self, as it relates externally. Only a sense of victimhood hence defensiveness when "honesty" is given to you and yet, when you provide "honesty" it's acceptable.

 

At least I don't make things up about you. What I say is what is happening.

[anne1707]

Ladies

 

Please! You are both being as bad as each other. How about some deep breaths and backing off before there is a public lynching. Nobody is going to win this argument because you are both too stubborn. If it carries on like this, there will be so many infractions flying around - I am sure neither of you want that.

[Star Gazer]

At least I don't make things up about you. What I say is what is happening.

 

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. Oh yes you do! :laugh::laugh:

 

In 60 seconds, I won't be able to read any more of your posts - from here on out. So, keep attacking me all you want. Waste your energy, and dig your own grave. I'm not about to step near the one you're trying to push me into.

[threebyfate]

Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft. Oh yes you do! :laugh::laugh:

 

In 60 seconds, I won't be able to read any more of your posts - from here on out. So, keep attacking me all you want. Waste your energy, and dig your own grave. I'm not about to step near the one you're trying to push me into.

No I don't. And that's fact.

 

Anyways, ignore is a great feature. So do use it.