When your SO makes subtle comments that you need to lose weight

[zengirl]

Strange how the bullies don't like being "criticized" and aren't willing to take responsibility for their own actions, while at the same time, feeling "justified" in consistently and persistently abusing and bullying criticizing every little thing that ES does. Funny dat!

 

Passive aggressive much? I don't mind being criticized or taking responsibility for my own actions, but if you want to talk about me, I'd prefer you do it by name.

 

If ES comments on someone else's thread in a post unrelated to her issues, I don't generally bring her past into it. Nor do I bring yours into it or try to get personal with you. Nor do I object when, in my own threads, someone brings up something from my past that has relevance, even if it's critical. I might disagree, but I think it's fair play.

[Art_Critic]

ETA: I don't see how I'm failing to "own" anything,

 

My mistake ZG.. in your last post you cleared that up

 

We disagree on the definition of personal when used in this thread but that is no biggie...both definitions will work.

[climbergirl]

IMO they are not being thrown around lightly.

 

 

I agree with you...they haven't been thrown around lightly. Check out where in the thread (TBF, myself and others, and including you, Art) this defense of the OP has taken place. Well into it. It's not easy to sit around and watch it happen, but sometimes one has to say...enough is enough. And I've never known TBF to be malicious, btw. Unless absolutely warranted.

 

This is only my opinion, but I really don't think she (SG) has the best intentions...In spite of how she claims her 'deliveries' are to be interpreted. She is a smart girl and if she is (as she claims) a lawyer she is keenly aware of how words can be misinterpreted. She knows what she is doing and how it will play out. I have seen it with LB, shadowplay, TBF and ES.

 

I'm sorry to use your post as a venue for this, Art. Please forgive me. But the posting from a few followers who perpetuate what she does is very sad. I have no problems calling one out on something, put to intentionally hurt someone. Not acceptable. Even a person I don't know. As elementary as this sounds...it's just not nice.

 

My sympathy does not lie with ES. It lies with those who think being cruel is acceptable. Or those who 'get off' on it because they are so unhappy with their own lives.

[threebyfate]

Passive aggressive much? I don't mind being criticized or taking responsibility for my own actions, but if you want to talk about me, I'd prefer you do it by name.

 

If ES comments on someone else's thread in a post unrelated to her issues, I don't generally bring her past into it. Nor do I bring yours into it or try to get personal with you. Nor do I object when, in my own threads, someone brings up something from my past that has relevance, even if it's critical. I might disagree, but I think it's fair play.

Passive aggressive? What are you talking about? It's right out there in the open. I've flat out stated that you enable SG with her cruelty and bullying. You're also one to jump on the "criticism" train and ride it hard.

 

For someone who continues to declare how secure she is, you're awfully insecure and defensive.

[threebyfate]

I agree with you...they haven't been thrown around lightly. Check out where in the thread (TBF, myself and others, and including you, Art) this defense of the OP has taken place. Well into it. It's not easy to sit around and watch it happen, but sometimes one has to say...enough is enough. And I've never known TBF to be malicious, btw. Unless absolutely warranted.

 

This is only my opinion, but I really don't think she (SG) has the best intentions...In spite of how she claims her 'deliveries' are to be interpreted. She is a smart girl and if she is (as she claims) a lawyer she is keenly aware of how words can be misinterpreted. She knows what she is doing and how it will play out. I have seen it with LB, shadowplay, TBF and ES.

 

I'm sorry to use your post as a venue for this, Art. Please forgive me. But the posting from a few followers who perpetuate what she does is very sad. I have no problems calling one out on something, put to intentionally hurt someone. Not acceptable. Even a person I don't know. As elementary as this sounds...it's just not nice.

 

My sympathy does not lie with ES. It lies with those who think being cruel is acceptable. Or those who 'get off' on it because they are so unhappy with their own lives.

My sympathies lie with ES for being on the receiving end of bullying and emotional abuse. No doubt she's responsible for her own behaviours but to suggest that she "change" herself to the image of what the bullies feel she should become and if she doesn't, to get bullied with malicious intent since her abusers are "frustrated" with her, come on, that's crazy talk. If people are all responsible for themselves then stop bullying ES and taking out personal frustration on her. Once that stops, people will stop putting up a wall against bullying. Enough is enough. It's that simple.

[climbergirl]

My sympathies lie with ES for being on the receiving end of bullying and emotional abuse. No doubt she's responsible for her own behaviours but to suggest that she "change" herself to the image of what the bullies feel she should become and if she doesn't, to get bullied with malicious intent since her abusers are "frustrated" with her, come on, that's crazy talk. If people are all responsible for themselves then stop bullying ES and taking out personal frustration on her. Once that stops, people will stop putting up a wall against bullying. Enough is enough. It's that simple.

 

 

But here is the thing---I don't really believe they are frustrated with her, per say (hence your quotes, maybe). I have gotten frustrated with people in real life and once it gets to be too much, that's it. That's not the case here. I finally checked out ES's threads and the same 'people' follow and criticize.

 

So I completely agree with your statement of 'taking out personal frustration on her'. I think ES is going to be ok, though. Perhaps she is insecure about some things---but really---who isn't??

[Star Gazer]

Strange how the bullies don't like being "criticized" and aren't willing to take responsibility for their own actions, while at the same time, feeling "justified" in consistently and persistently abusing and bullying criticizing every little thing that ES does. Funny dat!

 

Corrected to read:

 

Strange how you don't like being "criticized" for the exact thing you accuse me of, and aren't willing to take responsibility for your own actions, while at the same time, feeling "justified" in consistently and persistently abusing and bullying and criticizing every little thing that I do or say! Funny dat!

[threebyfate]

But here is the thing---I don't really believe they are frustrated with her, per say (hence your quotes, maybe). I have gotten frustrated with people in real life and once it gets to be too much, that's it. That's not the case here. I finally checked out ES's threads and the same 'people' follow and criticize.

 

So I completely agree with your statement of 'taking out personal frustration on her'. I think ES is going to be ok, though. Perhaps she is insecure about some things---but really---who isn't??

I too feel that ES will be okay. She's openly admitted there are some things that she needs to amend which will take time and possibly more experiences to adapt and adopt new strategies. Once someone is aware of their issues, it's the first step towards internal changes. And she's so not stupid so if she needs professional help, she'll get it on her own time. It really is her life to do what makes her happy. She's not someone who needs to be forced through a cookie cutter so she pops out just like every other gingerbread cookie with an external smile but underlying unhappiness since it's not who she is.

 

And if you look at the bullies, none of them are terribly happy or secure with their gingerbread smiles, so maybe they too need to break out of their personal perceptions of who they should be. Just a thought.

[zengirl]

FTR, I don't think ES needs to take anyone's advice. She can pick and choose, as can everyone, what she wants to listen to. The idea that such advice is "abuse" is where I disagree.

 

The strongest abuse I saw in THIS thread was directed at SG. Bringing her weight into it was abusive, personal, and unnecessary. And I find it ironic that the person who did those things wants to be the "Here's how we should treat people" police. It feels controlling to me.

 

My mistake ZG.. in your last post you cleared that up

 

We disagree on the definition of personal when used in this thread but that is no biggie...both definitions will work.

 

Words are tricky things, and that's no bother. I figured there was a misunderstanding in there somewhere, which was mostly why I kept blathering on to ya.

 

Passive aggressive? What are you talking about? It's right out there in the open. I've flat out stated that you enable SG with her cruelty and bullying. You're also one to jump on the "criticism" train and ride it hard.

 

For someone who continues to declare how secure she is, you're awfully insecure and defensive.

 

The statement "Some people" is passive aggressive, as were several things in that post.

 

I don't think SG is a bully or cruel. I think she was perhaps impolite, but at least her comments had some provocation and relevance to the topic at hand. Yours had none. Nor did ES's. But regardless of all that, I do nothing to "enable" her. SG will say what she'll say regardless of me being in a thread. I think you could probably dig up some ES threads from when I wasn't around to prove that, if you wanted. I don't believe I have any ability to enable her. I occasionally agree with her, though, and in this case thought she got unwarranted abuse. But neither one of those are the chief reasons I jumped in, as I've stated.

 

And I don't know what the "criticism" train is. I certainly never pretended or asked to be above criticism.

 

And while I would say I am secure, if asked, I don't know that I go around declaring it all the time randomly. I suppose I sometimes bring up how my journey to said security worked, but just to provide data points on my POV when I give advice; I really don't think everyone here should become a zengirl clone or anything. I just can only speak from my own experiences. But anyway, I certainly never brought up my "security" in this thread --- you did. A couple of times.

 

As a person, I'll admit I can be defensive*, but it's mostly because I don't like being misunderstood (as with Art Critic, which we cleared up through continued communication) or completely misrepresented (as you keep attempting to do).

 

*ETA: I would call it "explaining myself" but I'm aware it can come across as defensive and accept as much. There are a variety of ways people are defensive, though, and they all come from different places.

Edited August 12, 2011 by zengirl

[Art_Critic]

TBF I just can't see what you're getting at with this bullying thing. Exactly how is ES in danger?

 

welikeincrowds.. It isn't about ES being in danger.. bullying isn't always about danger..

That kid who stole your lunch money in school or cut in line in front of you didn't put you in any danger either and he was a bully..

 

LS has become a breeding ground for bullying behavior by a handful of people.

This behavior is EASILY traceable even to other thread starters like Shadowplay and others..

I have also called bullying on some of these same people on other threads thruout the months when I have seen it..

That is why I see the pattern...

 

All you have to do is see ES post a thread and you know the same handful of posters will be beating on her in no time.

I myself stopped posting advice on ES's thread as it seemed lost in all the non-helpful bullying posts.. my one or 2 posts would be lost by 10 pages of beating on ES.

 

I'd like to see the bullying stop as people like ES don't need the grief and LS would be better without it too.

[climbergirl]

FTR, I don't think ES needs to take anyone's advice. She can pick and choose, as can everyone, what she wants to listen to. The idea that such advice is "abuse" is where I disagree.

 

The strongest abuse I saw in THIS thread was directed at SG. Bringing her weight into it was abusive, personal, and unnecessary. And I find it ironic that the person who did those things wants to be the "Here's how we should treat people" police. It feels controlling to me.

 

 

 

Words are tricky things, and that's no bother. I figured there was a misunderstanding in there somewhere, which was mostly why I kept blathering on to ya.

 

 

 

The statement "Some people" is passive aggressive, as were several things in that post.

 

I don't think SG is a bully or cruel. I think she was perhaps impolite, but at least her comments had some provocation and relevance to the topic at hand. Yours had none. Nor did ES's. But regardless of all that, I do nothing to "enable" her. SG will say what she'll say regardless of me being in a thread. I think you could probably dig up some ES threads from when I wasn't around to prove that, if you wanted. I don't believe I have any ability to enable her. I occasionally agree with her, though, and in this case thought she got unwarranted abuse. But neither one of those are the chief reasons I jumped in, as I've stated.

 

And I don't know what the "criticism" train is. I certainly never pretended or asked to be above criticism.

 

And while I would say I am secure, if asked, I don't know that I go around declaring it all the time randomly. I suppose I sometimes bring up how my journey to said security worked, but just to provide data points on my POV when I give advice; I really don't think everyone here should become a zengirl clone or anything. I just can only speak from my own experiences. But anyway, I certainly never brought up my "security" in this thread --- you did. A couple of times.

 

As a person, I'll admit I can be defensive, but it's mostly because I don't like being misunderstood (as with Art Critic, which we cleared up through continued communication) or completely misrepresented (as you keep attempting to do).

 

 

So you're attacking TBF for defending a fellow human being? Wow. Says it all, doesn't it. I can see where you conceive her to be a 'bully'.

 

 

Whereas you defend SG for pertuating her unhappiness via the wrath on someone online.

 

Makes sense.

[GorillaTheater]

To be perfectly honest, even though I think pretty highly of both TBF and SG, both of them can get a little aggressive and "pushy" with their advice. I can see how that might come off as "bullying".

 

But so the hell what?

[zengirl]

So you're attacking TBF for defending a fellow human being? Wow. Says it all, doesn't it. I can see where you conceive her to be a 'bully'.

 

Whereas you defend SG for pertuating her unhappiness via the wrath on someone online.

 

Makes sense.

 

I'm "attacking" (I would say criticizing, but semantics, whatever) TBF for some of the things she said in her "defense" of ES. Who disappeared btw. She didn't chime in just to support ES----she chimed in to tear down SG and even brought SG's weight and personal life into the discussion. And then said she did so because she thinks SG tears down other people. Irony!

 

If TBF had said, "ES, you're fine girl. Don't worry about what others think of your weight or clothes." That'd be a comment in support and defense of ES. What TBF did is actually tantamount (IMO) to what she accuses SG of doing, and not even what I think SG is actually doing. I don't think SG actively comes in and looks to make people feel badly about themselves; I think TBF in her "defense" was actively trying to tear SG down. In ES's name, sure, but what's the difference.

 

It's like a girl says something that bugs your friend but may not have been actively malicious, just insensitive, so you spread a whole lot of **** about the girl who bugged your friend. And then claim to be the better person. As an analogy.

 

You can interpret it differently, if you like, but that's my interpretation.

 

As far as SG "perpetuating ES's unhappiness" --- I guess I just don't attribute anyone online that kind of power. Does SG say some things to ES that are harsh? Sure. Does she say things I consider malicious? No. Again, my interpretation. But TBF WAS malicious with the comments about SG's weight, and she didn't try to hide it. IMO, there is NO good reason to be malicious.

 

ETA: And please don't construe my posts as "in defense" of SG, the way TBF tries to construe hers as "in defense" of ES. I'm not saying anything I'm saying FOR SG or because I believe she needs shielding. She can defend herself! I'm saying it because I felt like saying it. If you can find anything malicious I said here, about ANYONE involved, feel free to bring it up and I'll look at it, but I doubt it exists.

Edited August 12, 2011 by zengirl

[climbergirl]

I'm "attacking" (I would say criticizing, but semantics, whatever) TBF for some of the things she said in her "defense" of ES. Who disappeared btw. She didn't chime in just to support ES----she chimed in to tear down SG and even brought SG's weight and personal life into the discussion. And then said she did so because she thinks SG tears down other people. Irony!

 

If TBF had said, "ES, you're fine girl. Don't worry about what others think of your weight or clothes." That'd be a comment in support and defense of ES. What TBF did is actually tantamount (IMO) to what she accuses SG of doing, and not even what I think SG is actually doing. I don't think SG actively comes in and looks to make people feel badly about themselves; I think TBF in her "defense" was actively trying to tear SG down. In ES's name, sure, but what's the difference.

 

It's like a girl says something that bugs your friend but may not have been actively malicious, just insensitive, so you spread a whole lot of **** about the girl who bugged your friend. And then claim to be the better person. As an analogy.

 

You can interpret it differently, if you like, but that's my interpretation.

 

As far as SG "perpetuating ES's unhappiness" --- I guess I just don't attribute anyone online that kind of power. Does SG say some things to ES that are harsh? Sure. Does she say things I consider malicious? No. Again, my interpretation. But TBF WAS malicious with the comments about SG's weight, and she didn't try to hide it. IMO, there is NO good reason to be malicious.

 

ETA: And please don't construe my posts as "in defense" of SG, the way TBF tries to construe hers as "in defense" of ES. I'm not saying anything I'm saying FOR SG or because I believe she needs shielding. She can defend herself! I'm saying it because I felt like saying it. If you can find anything malicious I said here, about ANYONE involved, feel free to bring it up and I'll look at it, but I doubt it exists.

 

I appreciate your interpretation and I truly thank you for your explanation. However, I cannot say that I'm posting only in the defense of ES. And I'm not trying to be passive-aggressive and I am just being honest with the following...

 

I won't speak for TBF, but I know where she is coming from in this regard. I haven't read enough of your posts, zengirl, to make any kind of judgement on you other than what has posted on this thread. And, not that it matters, but I wouldn't make any sort of blanket statement on a person just for their comments on one thread. Patterns are something else...

 

I have been part of this forum for over 5 years, and SG is a bully and hypocritical. And given the enormous amounts of threads she starts, it's very apparent that she is hypercritical of those people who have issues that juxtapose hers.

 

I don't like to see people hurt or see anyone have hurt feelings-it's not necessary in this forum. And even when she was pointed out by others how it was being perceived (besides ES) she regressed to a preschooler and blamed others for her reaction instead of offering some contrition that, perhaps, she could have been misinterpreted.

 

This used to be a great forum, with a lot a great advice. It's actions such as hers that hurt those that really need help.

 

If she has nothing nice to say to ES then I suggest she stays out of them. It's simple, really. However, her actions indicate she has larger issues and I do believe she needs to address those desperately.

[Star Gazer]

I have been part of this forum for over 5 years, and SG is a bully and hypocritical. And given the enormous amounts of threads she starts, it's very apparent that she is hypercritical of those people who have issues that juxtapose hers.

 

I just looked at the stats. I've started 500 threads (wowza!!) in over 6 years. ES (just with this name alone, not including her other names over the past 3-5 years) has started 72 threads in just 5 months. I'm no mathematician (I'll leave that up to ES), but proportionally she doubles the number of the "enormous" number of threads I've started, not to mention that I start threads on a variety of subjects...NOT detailing the same problems over and over.

 

And I don't disagree that I am sometimes hypercritical of ES's behaviors. Most of the time, I believe her behavior and thought process is...beyond wrong, and I say as much. But that HARDLY rises to the level of the INTENTIONAL ABUSE that you and TBF are accusing me of.

 

And I really think you ought to look in the mirror, as I deem INENTIONAL ABUSE to be things like calling me a preschooler with large issues. This thread isn't about me, but you and TBF made if about me with your personal attacks. It's shameful.

 

I have an opinion, and I voice it. That's what this forum is for. It is NOT to ONLY say nice things or not to say anything at all, as you suggest.

[Nexus One]

I have seen it with LB, shadowplay, TBF and ES.

 

I haven't been here for that long, so I don't know what happened to LB, shadowplay, TBF and how SG is involved in all of that. The fact that so many people who have been around longer seem to be saying there's something going on and that there is a pattern has me doubting somewhat, but I'm still not convinced.

 

I do agree that SG seems to come across in a strong way, but I didn't sense mal-intent behind it. To explain what I mean for example, not a long time ago we got a new CEO at the company I work at. The guy is VERY tough. The last CEO was fired by shareholders for making a mess of things (amongst other things) and not making the cuts in costs and personnel that were needed to ensure the continuity of the company. The new CEO is tough, direct, in your face and can seem very intimidating to anyone who is not used to that kind of attitude. But he is fair and he is good, good in the sense that he has been able to steer the ship in the right direction by doing what had to be done and criticizing what needed to be criticized. Hence the company is still standing and most people still have their jobs.

 

Now how does this relate to ES? It relates in the sense whether or not people should rather stay silent and not express any criticism in regards to the choices she makes. In my opinion the answer to that is no and my reasoning for that is multifaceted:

 

1. I think it is potentially negligent to stay silent over something when you see something is wrong. I don't think that principle weighs as heavily on an anonymous internet forum, but it's something to consider.

2. Criticism, if constructive, can have a positive outcome for the person being criticized.

3. ES asks for opinions, advice, responses and possible criticism by posting threads on a public discussion forum. A forum is a place where criticism is warranted or there would be no discussion possible. Of course nobody likes to be criticized all the time, especially if it's unwarranted/unjustified criticism. But LS has a block function, so ES can block SG and be done with it if she thinks her criticism is causing her psychological suffering. We're on the internet here, an anonymous forum with members that aren't nearly as aggressive as for example 4chan members. Escape from unjust criticism/bullying/abuse is easy here on LS. One can either block members, ignore their posts, stop posting or go incognito under another nickname. Problem solved.

4. Freedom of speech. I'm also interested in hearing opinions that are contra-popular, that go against the grain. Whether I agree with those opinions is a whole other matter, but a wide spectrum of opinions brings color to a discussion and sometimes a contra-popular opinion can be the right one.

 

I also think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions when they say that there's mal-intent involved or that some people are enabling bullying and abuse or that people think being cruel is acceptable.

 

It's possible that I'm seeing this the wrong way though, it's possible that I've been conditioned by harsher environments where criticism and tough discussion are almost the standard and that hence I might be having a tough time seeing what several posters are referring to.

 

TBF I just can't see what you're getting at with this bullying thing. Exactly how is ES in danger?

 

I'm constantly wondering the same thing. TBF's reactions seems very much disproportionate with what I seem to be witnessing. So much so that I was wondering if she was a long time troll or a member of Scientology or something similar.

 

Sorry TBF, but you seem to react quite extremely and unrelentingly. You talk as if you possess the absolute truth, while I think most of us here are very much doubting what exactly is going on here.

 

Strange how the bullies don't like being "criticized" and aren't willing to take responsibility for their own actions, while at the same time, feeling "justified" in consistently and persistently abusing and bullying criticizing every little thing that ES does. Funny dat!

 

TBF you seem to make a lot of assumptions here.

 

1. You call people bullies as if it's set in stone that that's the case.

2. You say people don't like to be criticized. I mean who does, but it's not like most people aren't considering any of the criticism and aren't weighing things to come to a balanced opinion. (I can only speak for myself in this regard though)

3. People aren't willing to take responsibility for their actions. People only tend to consider doing that if they realize they're doing something wrong. That still has to be established.

4. People feel justified in bullying and abusing.

5. People criticize every little thing ES does. I don't think that's true first of all and second of all it might seem that way because when you have a lot of people commenting, then there's bound to be criticism piling up from a multitude of people.

 

That being said I'm not posting this to defend SG. I'm posting this because the people who are saying that there's bullying and abuse going on and that there are people who are enabling it and that some people find cruelty acceptable aren't doing a very good job of convincing me that that's actually the case. I see a lot of assumptions, a lot of accusations, but very little substance that supports any of it. I'm mostly sitting here with a question mark in my mind. I'm not exactly sure what's going on here, but I feel that things are being exaggerated, causing some opinions to not seem very balanced, clear-minded or levelheaded. In that sense some replies give off a weird vibe, like there's something else involved here, a factor that's unknown to me.

 

Last but not least I wish ES the very best and hope she'll become happy in life and love. I'll keep replying, giving advice, giving an opinion and criticizing if necessary. Why? Because ES creates threads and hence I feel invited to do so. Anyone else has the same right. ES can block them if she doesn't appreciate their input.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Nexus One

[Star Gazer]

I have seen it with LB, shadowplay, TBF and ES.

 

Once upon a time, I (along with many, many others, including TBF) was tough on LB. I was. When she first started dating her now-H, and pre-engagement, she presented herself in an immature way. LB has grown up a lot since she's been here, and now often jokes about how she was back in the day (when she and I EQUALLY butted heads). She put up a fight against a lot of people. Back then. Now? As silly as it may sound on a forum, I am PROUD of her and far she has come. And ask her who from LS she's recently chatted with offline for help and advice, via personal/real name email. Me. I actually really, really like LB.

 

Shadowplay and her following names got caught in several, well, lies, to put it bluntly, to the point she was ultimately banned. I only called her out on those lies, and the absolutely reprehensible way she treated her exBF (like asking him if she could have sex with his best friend). Admittedly, I have a tough time only saying nice things to someone, or even remaining silent, when I see them using people the way she did.

 

TBF? (Either as trialbyfire or her new name). To say I have bullied HER is a joke. As if she could be bullied by anyone. On the other hand, she actually started a thread about wanting to kill (literally) someone who offended her (me). She's also started threads and engaged in full-on personal war with people she was once very close with (Touche and Johan), for the apparent sole purpose of humiliating them and publicly attempting to declare that she's the better person.

[TheBigQuestion]

I'm admittedly more of a thread-reader than a regular poster. However, one thing I've realized is that both ES and shadowplay had been incredibly tactless, vindictive, or downright abusive to people in their actual lives. An example of shadowplay doing so was described by SG above. While I understand that both these posters (and others here) may have legitimate psychological issues and difficulties, such psychological explanations are just that: explanations. They do not EXCUSE behavior. ES being insecure does not excuse the way she has treated some men in the past. It doesn't excuse her seriously contemplating cheating on her exes whenever the viability of her relationships have been threatened.

 

I personally don't think anyone who criticizes these aspects of their behavior should be accused of being bullies. Posters like ES are very frequently the biggest bullies to others in their personal lives.

[threebyfate]

Once upon a time, I (along with many, many others, including TBF) was tough on LB. I was. When she first started dating her now-H, and pre-engagement, she presented herself in an immature way. LB has grown up a lot since she's been here, and now often jokes about how she was back in the day (when she and I EQUALLY butted heads). She put up a fight against a lot of people. Back then. Now? As silly as it may sound on a forum, I am PROUD of her and far she has come. And ask her who from LS she's recently chatted with offline for help and advice, via personal/real name email. Me. I actually really, really like LB.

I've openly stated that Taramere made me see things more clearly in reference to Karpman's Drama triangle. I also backed off LB when I realized what was going on and also, suggested you do the same.

 

Shadowplay and her following names got caught in several, well, lies, to put it bluntly, to the point she was ultimately banned. I only called her out on those lies, and the absolutely reprehensible way she treated her exBF (like asking him if she could have sex with his best friend). Admittedly, I have a tough time only saying nice things to someone, or even remaining silent, when I see them using people the way she did.

The only lie that shadowplay told was not telling the site that she decided to stay with her then ex. And this was self-admitted in a thread by her.

 

TBF? (Either as trialbyfire or her new name). To say I have bullied HER is a joke. As if she could be bullied by anyone. On the other hand, she actually started a thread about wanting to kill (literally) someone who offended her (me).

This is an outright fabrication, one of your many. I started that thread for an entirely different reason where I stated I would honestly kill anyone who tried to rape me. That you managed to convince Tony this was the case, is beyond sick and psychotic. As far as bullying me, you tried really, really hard to do so, using the alert and report trick, after nitpicking me to death, accusing me of lying about being nearly raped.

 

She's also started threads and engaged in full-on personal war with people she was once very close with (Touche and Johan), for the apparent sole purpose of humiliating them and publicly attempting to declare that she's the better person.

Wow, nice spin. Try again. What happened between myself and Touche and Johan have nothing to do with you. You know nothing beyond gossip. Not unusual for someone who fabricates on any given day about people you don't like. Either people are your friends who you coo over in a sickening manner or they're evil beyond repair. Get some balance woman. I'm very glad you continue with your therapy.

[Star Gazer]

I'm admittedly more of a thread-reader than a regular poster. However, one thing I've realized is that both ES and shadowplay had been incredibly tactless, vindictive, or downright abusive to people in their actual lives. An example of shadowplay doing so was described by SG above. While I understand that both these posters (and others here) may have legitimate psychological issues and difficulties, such psychological explanations are just that: explanations. They do not EXCUSE behavior. ES being insecure does not excuse the way she has treated some men in the past. It doesn't excuse her seriously contemplating cheating on her exes whenever the viability of her relationships have been threatened.

 

I personally don't think anyone who criticizes these aspects of their behavior should be accused of being bullies. Posters like ES are very frequently the biggest bullies to others in their personal lives.

 

I couldn't agree more.

[torn_curtain]

 

But the most interesting point is the perception of power imbalance. I agree with Welike that no one in reality has power over anyone else here on LS. I see this last clause as perhaps the productive space for better understanding. The central issue no longer is who is bullying who, but what do we think is at stake here? Egoes? Inclusion within the community? The right to peaceful participation on this forum?

 

I don't think bullying necessarily has to do with power in any real form. I see it more as being about ego; it's a way of the bully feeling better about his or herself by tearing somebody else apart. Cyber-bullying is a well-documented and increasingly common problem as our lives move more online, even though no tangible form of power may be at stake. Look it up.

[zengirl]

I've only been around a little over a year, though lurked on and off since 2008. So, these past grudges are not well-known to me. Nor do I think it's really appropriate to discuss people who aren't actually in this thread (whatever they feel about their old posts or SG or whatever, it's kind of rude and talking behind their backs), so I'll stay away from that.

 

I will say:

 

I have been part of this forum for over 5 years, and SG is a bully and hypocritical. And given the enormous amounts of threads she starts, it's very apparent that she is hypercritical of those people who have issues that juxtapose hers.

 

I will say SG is a critical person. In some circumstances, hypercritical might be a fair assessment of her response. (Hey, I'm a pretty critical person sometimes too, and I won't deny that.) Sometimes I think her criticism is warranted; other times I disagree. I'm 100% sure I've told her I thought her criticism of someone was unwarranted at one time or another, but I didn't do what TBF and bittersweet memories did in this particular thread and dredge up her personal stuff or try to turn it around on her or make it a personal thing. And --- here's a big important point of mine, and it goes for everyone --- just because I disagree with her criticism or don't like it doesn't make it inappropriate for her to give it. There's playing fair and playing dirty, though, for sure. I don't think SG played dirty in this thread. I do think TBF played dirty. (Again: You can feel free to disagree.)

 

And criticism, itself, is not a bad thing to me; this is another big point I want to make. When I say someone is critical, it's actually a fairly neutral term to me. There are good and bad things to being critical. A critical nature, for happiness sake, is likely best tempered with some other personality aspects that SG may or may not have, but I'm not really going to try to analyze her whole life in depth. It's already getting a bit weird.

 

I don't like to see people hurt or see anyone have hurt feelings-it's not necessary in this forum. And even when she was pointed out by others how it was being perceived (besides ES) she regressed to a preschooler and blamed others for her reaction instead of offering some contrition that, perhaps, she could have been misinterpreted.

 

Really. That's not what I saw happen. She made the BBW mistake (and so did a couple other people, and a few more argued over the range, and Fit Chick said everyone overweight was the same, and there was lots of dissing of an entire population that includes some perfectly lovely people who aren't in perfect shape, from many posters, including ES), and then I saw her make the "clothes make you look bigger than you are" post, and immediately after that, bittersweet memories said SG was fat and short and TBF jumped on that bandwagon. I just went back and re-read it.

 

I didn't see anyone write, "Hey, that comes off a little impolite" (which I won't even disagree with, though I will say ES opened the door for criticism with asking people to view her photos). I saw people ATTACK.

 

Now how does this relate to ES? It relates in the sense whether or not people should rather stay silent and not express any criticism in regards to the choices she makes. In my opinion the answer to that is no and my reasoning for that is multifaceted:

 

1. I think it is potentially negligent to stay silent over something when you see something is wrong. I don't think that principle weighs as heavily on an anonymous internet forum, but it's something to consider.

2. Criticism, if constructive, can have a positive outcome for the person being criticized.

3. ES asks for opinions, advice, responses and possible criticism by posting threads on a public discussion forum. A forum is a place where criticism is warranted or there would be no discussion possible. Of course nobody likes to be criticized all the time, especially if it's unwarranted/unjustified criticism. But LS has a block function, so ES can block SG and be done with it if she thinks her criticism is causing her psychological suffering.

 

[snip]

 

I also think a lot of people are jumping to conclusions when they say that there's mal-intent involved or that some people are enabling bullying and abuse or that people think being cruel is acceptable.

 

It's possible that I'm seeing this the wrong way though, it's possible that I've been conditioned by harsher environments where criticism and tough discussion are almost the standard and that hence I might be having a tough time seeing what several posters are referring to.

 

All of these things, and a lot of the other things you've said in this post, Nexus, really ring true with my experience and views as well. And why I said to me "critical" is a neutral word----there are good and bad things about approaching things critically.

[zengirl]

I don't think bullying necessarily has to do with power in any real form. I see it more as being about ego; it's a way of the bully feeling better about his or herself by tearing somebody else apart. Cyber-bullying is a well-documented and increasingly common problem as our lives move more online, even though no tangible form of power may be at stake. Look it up.

 

Cyber-bullying (in schools, which is where the term comes from) is about social power, humiliation, and very much mimics other forms of bullying. The definition Kamille gave is similar to what I've always heard.

 

The term "bully" really shouldn't be confused with the term "mean." There's much more to a bully than that.

 

/PSA

[threebyfate]

I'm admittedly more of a thread-reader than a regular poster. However, one thing I've realized is that both ES and shadowplay had been incredibly tactless, vindictive, or downright abusive to people in their actual lives. An example of shadowplay doing so was described by SG above. While I understand that both these posters (and others here) may have legitimate psychological issues and difficulties, such psychological explanations are just that: explanations. They do not EXCUSE behavior. ES being insecure does not excuse the way she has treated some men in the past. It doesn't excuse her seriously contemplating cheating on her exes whenever the viability of her relationships have been threatened.

 

I personally don't think anyone who criticizes these aspects of their behavior should be accused of being bullies. Posters like ES are very frequently the biggest bullies to others in their personal lives.

This is a prime example of people taking out their own personal anger issues on other posters.

 

And yet, did ES cheat? Nope. Kneejerk reaction. The "great guy" that many were championing, ended up being a retarded cheat.

[torn_curtain]

On second thought I do see some power dynamics coming into play on an internet forum. The approval of other members could be seen as wielding a form of power. By targeting and tarnishing the character of another member, the bully may be seeking to gain approval from the rest of the forum. Or it may not even be about the approval of others but just about feeling more powerful him/herself by putting somebody else down.

 

After all schoolyard bullies are sometimes loners who are ostracized by the community. They don't wield any real power, but they may feel psychologically powerful in a weak way by picking on others. I think the one way that power comes into play with bullies is less tangible and more psychological--ie wrapped up in ego.